Is this considered illegal?

Ok, so i'm using a program that types for example, xz whenever i press x. Would this be considered against the rules? I use it mainly for chatting but it can help a little in fighting as well i guess if i bind stuff to it. Also, i managed to set up my mouse wheel to control next party member/previous party member, this ok as well?

I ask because in the rules it says that you cannot use any third party program (such as a bot) to automate playing chatting etc, yet automate means to make something automatic, if i have to press the button or whatever to do this its not automatic is it?

Thanks in advance

Have you read the EULA yet Mr.Goodiegoodie2shoes?

It's a 3rd party program. Prepare2bebanned.

any third party program is a big no no

that simple. no matter what that prog do.

its agisnt the EULA.

It's against EULA and ToS.

The drivers for the zboard gaming keyboard are a third party program, and allow for macros. In fact, the version with the factions graphic on it, that was advertised, and I believe given away in a contest here on guru, comes by default with buttons bound to "/dance" "/laugh" and a few other emotes.

I was assuming that they wouldn't ban you for this kind of thing. If it's related to anything that you actually do during real gameplay, that's a no-no. Are you saying I should prepare to get banned for my "call target" key that hits ctrl+shift+space? I mean, presumably arenanet had to ok the use of the graphic on http://www.ideazon.com/us/products/keyset_guildwars.asp <- that. You saying they'd ok the use of the graphic on a product they'd ban you for using? I highly doubt it.

If, however, the "keys it presses" when you press x are, say, coincident with the sequence necessary to farm trolls outside droknar's for 6 hours, you'd get banned.

If you want to repeat something you've said in Guild Wars, press enter, then press up. It will go through all the things you've typed previously. Now you have no reason for a bot.

A macro that automagically spams WTS ____ in Lions Arch without input from you is bad. A macro that makes your assassin go AoD+GPS+HotO+FS is not bad, provided you have to manually trigger it. The only thing to be aware of is, should you ever be in a guild that makes it to a championship match in say Thailand, you are allowed to use your own keyboard, mouse, etc, but no special drivers may be installed, and since most macros, such as those employed by the z-board, are controlled by the drivers, you'ld be out of luck in that regard and mostly actually at a disadvantage.

Email support. I did when I was curious about using my Nostromo n52 macro keyboard thing. They said so long as it is not automated so it can play without human control that it was fine, stipulating that they'd offer no support for it (duh! I thought). I ended up not using mine because it was awkward after using it for FPS games.

Email support for yourself though and see what they tell ya. They are the ones that will know.

And this is exactly why it's stated that any kind of third party utilities are forbidden.

Debating what is legal and what isn't is endless and futile.

Summary: Yes, it's against EULA and ToS. Period.


Whether you get banned or not is another thing, but what exatly is the "xz" you mentioned. I hope it's not "WTS: ....".

Any and all third party utilities are in violation of the policy you accepted. There are no ifs or buts here. This includes, among other things, various keyboard macros (whether supplied by manufacturer or 3rd party vendors) that simulate keypresses.

From legal perspective, even GWFreaks that generates the build strings is in violation, and using that application can result in ban.

For most part, these issues are aproached reasonably, with no bans or any action, but you will never have any legal backing, since by using them, you forfeit any and all rights.

By that reasoning, I can be banned for using any keyboard driver, as it's software, and it's third-party. They automate the generation of keystroke codes, as they make the code for me, without me having to get out a tiny magnet and tap on the wires by hand.

I am the first party, Arenanet is the second, everything else, is third party. By your reasoning, I could be banned for using an operating system to play guild wars, for using a mouse driver to move my cursor, or for automating the use of my hard drive to store the client. I assume that I should be chiseling the data to disk by hand, and perhaps yelling into the end of a cat-5 cable?

What constitutes a "special" driver? Some hardware doesn't work at all with generic drivers. If it's the only driver that drives that piece of equipment, is it "special"? I would argue it is not.

Also, I would've thought that the assassin combo macro would indeed, be "bad".

No, 3rd party in scope of EULA is software that interacts with GW beyond what GW was designed to do.

Any 3rd party tool (as in, the one not provided by Guild Wars client application) that performs any in-game action (presses a button, moves you around, spams WTS, executes a combo, provides a shortcut, types an emote, ....) is a 3rd party application that is illegal under the terms of contract.

It's not how it does it, it's what it does.

A keyboard driver is not provided by Anet. It doesn't violate anything.

Write your own keyboard driver that sends keystrokes to GW client that perform in-game actions, and you violate the contract.

The definition of 3rd party software within the scope of EULAs is completely clear.

It's not the software, it's the function it performs.

If you program your keyboard to send keystrokes to select targets, to manipulate chat, etc, you violate the contract.

If you inject DirectX keyboard interface to send keystrokes, you violate it.

If you run Windows Macro Recorder to send keystrokes to GW, you violate it.

If you force a slave to keep spamming WTS, you are not violating the contract.

It's the function that software performs that determins whether it's a violation. Sending one single keystroke that performs an in-game action is a violation of EULA. Whether you press it or not, since you're performing a 3rd party function withing GW client, one that is not provided by the client itself.

This isn't about whether mapping ctrl-shift-space is a huge or negligible offense. It's merely about the scope of the contract. And that one covers any and all such cases, with no exceptions.

That includes software that aides visually or hearing impaired, as well as helper applications for handicapped players. Sucks for them, but the contract doesn't exclude that. Using a text-to-speach for example would be in violation of the contract, despite those tools being completely valid, they still violate the contract.

I guess I'd better get arenanet to provide me with a keyboard driver then. My keyboard driver was not provided by arenanet. It interacts with guild wars. Even bot programs don't "do anything gw wasn't designed to do" - that's the point here. The automation is bad, we're not exceeding the design specs or anything. We're not talking about reverse-engineering the network code and trying to write an ultra-high efficiency no-lag version of the client or something.

How is this different than someone else writing a driver for a keyboard that "sends keystrokes that perform ingame actions"?
All keyboards are programmed to send the "tab" key event to whatever program is currently recieving input. You are telling me that pressing the tab key violates the EULA. Please think about what you are saying.
This sentence doesn't parse.
Agreed, except for some uses of the windows macro recorder. I could record pressing the w key once as a macro, then map that to the w key. I doubt that's a problem.
No. I do not think pressing keys on a keyboard violates the EULA. The driver is software. The OS is software. They work together to send keystrokes to the client all the time. They are both third party. The functions they provide are not, and cannot be provided by the gw client.
I know they can ban you with or without reason, but please, read the words that you are typing. You are claiming that anything at all that allows you to play the game is a violation of the EULA. That's ridiculous. The terms of use say:
automate. That's the important point. Automatic means "having the capability of starting, operating, moving, etc., independently". To automate means "to install automatic procedures". Arenanet doesn't want you using macros that make you do things without your interaction.

Binding a key to ctrl+shift+space doesn't violate that. It does nothing independent of you. Binding a key to perform a 4 skill assassin combo does: it automates a gameplay function. You press that key, and it takes actions without you.

So there we have it. Reading wins again!

I wonder if i can be banned for the TS overlay..hehe.

From my understanding and searching, macro's that do not control the movement of your character are not illegal. I have several friends that bind emote's to different keys for easier use and have never gotten in trouble over their use. The macro's that get players in trouble are the ones that make it easier to farm (bots are illegal in all the online games that I play and can result in beign banned when caught). As long as the macro you are using doesn't control your character then it is fine.

Mega Mouse

Nope. Teamspeak Overlay just draws "on top" of the gw screen, it doesn't actually have anything at all to do with the client.

Keyboard driver is does not interact with GW client. It provides an API used by GW to accept signals. These signals are then mapped to in-game actions. This is provided within settings menu, and as such not 3rd party.

Keyboards are not programmed to send any in-game action events. They are programmed to map the electrical signals into ASCII codes. The operating system maps those codes into proper code page encodings, and system events. Once again, this is handled by GW client. Once again, not 3rd party.

Using any and all software, that does that outside of GW client (not supported from within the game interface) is 3rd party application.

Sending keystrokes through some driver/application/dll to GW client is a violation. That is defined as third party. This does not violate the contract as long as it does not automate in-game actions. Writing a 3rd party utility that sends codes that do not change anything in game is not a violation.

Assuming you map space (VK_SPACE code in keyboard API) to attack action in GW control panel. If you then send the code for VK_SPACE via means of third party utility, you are violating this. Using your keyboard doesn't violate that. But using programmable API or hardware/software extensions does. As soon as it involves software capable of performing logical or sequential operations, it's considered 3rd party software, which is a violation.

The difference is in this:
User -> presses key -> eprom maps signal to ASCII code -> windows driver maps to virtual key code -> GW client maps it to ingame action.

There is no programmable logic involved anywhere in this example.

This is violation:
User -> pressed key -> programmable keyboard executes script associated with key -> ASCII codes generated by keyboard are sent to windows driver -> windows driver maps them to virtual key codes -> GW client maps virtual key codes to ingame action.

The violation occurs in step 3, where programmable keyboard (although in hardware) performs some unattended or blackbox logic, which is programmable by user. There is no difference whether this logic is running on keyboard, withing the driver, or anywhere else between user's keypress and GW client.

This may seem like a trivial or moronic point, but this is what licenses come down to. Use of any programmable (in any shape or form) between user's physical action and GW client is 3rd party software.

Legal documents, especially those that pertain to software licenses are annoying.

The only bypass to this mechanism is the analog hole. This involves having a human perform an exact sequence of actions by pressing keys on keyboard. You cannot replace that human with robot since robots are, once again, 3rd party software. The same bypass can be used to copy DRM video and audio. This is the only are of legislation which is currently insufficiently covered.

But most of this is moot point. All I'm trying to point out here, is that use of any (and literally any) software or tools to automate anything at all, is in violation of contract. It's irrelevant if you map /dance command to a key. It's also irrelevant if you map item pickup to a key.

But anything such action, that cannot be performed using the interface provided by GW client is in violation of contract. Simply because any such mechanism can be extended to perform complex actions, sequencing attacks, automating farming. This is different from "guns don't kill people". In terms of this contract "guns kill people" and as such, guns are completely and entirely outlawed, even if you only use your pistol as a decoration and would never fire it. It's outlawed in entirety.

To OP:

It's highly advisable that you email support and nequire about this. I don't think all 3rd-party programs get you banned, ToS are usually written in a 'grayish' manner in order to remain adaptive. As long as you are not using an external s/w which will give you any advantage over other players in terms of gameplay or add to server load, I think it should be fine. However, the best way to determine this if you are not sure is to ask ANet themselves by logging through a support call. What you're doing may be reasonable, but just to be safe, check out with them to avoid the possibility of getting banned by mistake as making an appeal will be more difficult than prevention.

@antheus: respectfully, you're wrong. Drivers are executable code, of a type. When you say: "User -> presses key -> eprom maps signal to ASCII code -> windows driver maps to virtual key code -> GW client maps it to ingame action. There is no programmable logic involved anywhere in this example." you're apparently missing the point that the windows driver is made of programmable (programmed) logic.

Go back and read my previous post. Keyboards aren't actually programmed to do anything, they send signals. The driver is where all the magic happens. Point is: even the standard windows driver is "third party". Programmable keyboards don't do something, then send it to the windows driver, they replace the windows driver.

Anyway, this is all moot, since if you read the damn ToS, it clearly states that you may not automate things with third party software, not that you can't use it at all. If you couldn't use third party software, you couldn't play the game at all. Your OS is third party. Your keyboard/mouse drivers are third party. Your video drivers are third party. Your sound drivers are third party. All the dll's in windows to make API calls are third party. Everything you use to get your hand movements to the client - is third party. You must use third party software to play GuildWars at all.

You're not supposed to use this stuff to automate - automate gameplay functions. Look up what automate means. It's setting up a series of actions without interaction from the user.

Well, yes. Third party applies to automation. This is the only 3rd party software being talked about here. Perhaps it got lost somewhere ...

If it's not provided by GW client, it's 3rd party. Of course this applies only to performing tasks in game, hence automation. And as such, scripting "target closest" + "attack" to a single keystroke is automation since it's not provided by GW client, hence it's third party. The only way to achieve it is to program your keyboard/AutoIt/custom app to perform that action. And that, is what violates the contract.

The only thing I ever talked about was 3rd party with regard to automation. And using any tool external to GW client, is what is defined as 3rd party, even as benign as binding /laugh to right mouse button.

My point was, the contract is structured in such way, that it covers any and all cases. Unless provided by GW client, it's third party, and as such, violates the contract.

Why doesn't contract define "good" and "bad" use of 3rd party software? Why are there no exceptions? Why is no such attempt ever justifiable?

Script 1:
- selects an item on ground - picks it up - repeats until there is no more items in range (good script. Doesn't harm anyone, doesn't violate game mechanics, doesn't degrade other user's experience) - a loot macro if you will

Script 2:
- Presses left mouse every second, making it easier for user to pick up gold (saves you the left click, so you just hover over the item to pick up)

You start both scripts exactly the same way, by double-clicking their icon.

Now, script 2 is much much simpler. If performs an extremly common action. But what if script 2 runs, and user accidentally places mouse cursor over "enter mission" button in Fort Aspenwood... The user can then easily argue, that this was never intended to be used in such a way, but was simply a clicker to pick up gold. And the fact that it got used in FA was an accident and a bug.

This is why ALL 3rd party automation is forbidden. Be it stringing two commands together, or performing complex actions. They are completely forbidden by any 3rd party means. And since GW doesn't support automation, all automation is effectively forbidden.

Nobody is getting banned for using keyboard shortcuts, or programming their keyboard for the sake of violation. But it is still a violation, regardless of how they are used, or what they represent.

The question OP asked was, whether it violates the EULA. Yes. Is OP getting banned for it? My answer would be likely not, but I do not know what "xz" means. If it's "WTS: aslfjkalkdj 100k", then spamming is one reason people get banned (rarely, very rarely).

But use the shortcuts for practical purposes, and you'll never be not only banned, but don't even need to worry about it. Abuse them, and if you by some weird chance get caught, you have no case or chance of apeal.

I would argue that binding a key to /dance for you is not automating a gameplay function. Nor is binding a key to ctrl+shift+space. Automating requires a series of actions, gameplay actions, to be initiated by the user, then left to run their course without further intervention. Calling a target is one single action. Dancing is one single action.

I realize that's debatable, one could argue that each single keypress is a whole gameplay action by itself, and that typing enter, /, d,a,n,c,e, enter is in fact, eight seperate game functions, but I personally believe that view to be retarded.

I say the OP is in the clear, so long as the bound actions are simple, one game-function actions. If his quoted "xz" is "farm trolls for an hour", then it's bannination time. If "xz" is "spam WTS [thing I have my cursor over]", then it's both spam, and "Affecting conversation in a negative way". If it's "call this target", or "dance" then can't see how it conflicts with the ToS.

Performing one single game function cannot, by definition, be automation. If you think it can be, read the definition of "automate" until you understand.

The only point here left to be argued is wether or not each keypress constitutes a "game function". Hitting space is a user action, attacking is a game function. Hitting ctrl+space is one user action, and results in one game function. Hitting ctrl+shift+space is one user action, and results in one game function. Hitting w,w,w,a,a,a,a,w,w,w,w,w,space,1,2,4,2,1,4,2,1,2,4, 2,[move cursor],[double click],tab,space,1,2,4,2,1,3,2,1,2,4,2 etc. is many user actions, and many game functions, condensing that sequence to be initiated by one keypress would be automation.

Anyway, I think we've covered this in enough detail. The only sure way to have an answer is from someone from anet. I think it's fine for small, one-action functions. You think each keypress is a whole game function, regardless of what it performs. We both agree that stringing together any appreciable amount of game-affecting actions is worthy of action.

In theory, doesn't a keystroke macro do exactly the same thing as writing/using a keyboard driver that binds keys/key combinations to keys other than the "intended" ones?

This doesn't interact with the GW client, per se; It simply sends the computer a number of commands by pressing one key.

Oh...my...God...

You're not allowed to buy characters and items on ebay and you're not allowed to bot. Of course you can use special functions on your keyboard. Email them if you want to check.

sigh...

Antheus is just making stuff up. Ignore it.

When I refered to special driver, this is the rule I was refering to. This is taken from the World Championship Rules page on the GW site, http://www.guildwars.com/competitive...ship-rules.php

As for what constitutes legal and illegal software basically boils down to the following with regards to standard play (as I mentioned above, the rules can be more strict in an official tournament setting). If you run a program that monitors ingame events and makes decisions on it's own based upon ingame data, such as waypoints on the mini-map, you are breaking the rules. If your keyboard, mouse, etc allows for macros such as, I press button F1 and that acts like I've typed 1234, that is allowable (generally speaking). So long as you are physically involved in actually playing the game, keyboard macros are perfectly fine. It's when you are not actively involved in the game, ie you have a program running that types WTS Rare Crystaline 15>50 Sword every 10 seconds, whether or not you are at the computer, then you are breaching the rules and can get your account terminated.

Yes, this is exactly what it does. However, bots do exactly the same things. They send... a combination of keys... to the guild wars client. Technically speaking, there's no real difference between a very complex "keystroke macro" and a "Bot". In fact, a bot is exactly that: a long, complicated keystroke macro. It's possible that there'd be some decision making code included, but that's much harder to write, and for a bot, the only real goal is repeatability. No one really writes anything conditional into bots beyond the code for "how I get out of city". Bots are, in practice, long macros.

If the quote is correct, and no drivers may be installed to enable or enhance the use of keyboards or mice, then championship matches must be very boring indeed, with no one able to move or use skills. Drivers are the software that enables the use of hardware. Without a driver of some kind, your hardware may as well be a lump of plastic; your OS can't do crap with it. I'd hate to make it all the way to the championships only to be told that I may not enable the use of my keyboard, mouse, or any other input device to play.

I imagine that's very inconvenient. I hope arenanet reads the words they put to print. How do those matches play out? Does everyone just wait for VoD and let the npc's duke it out at the flag stand, or do they break the rules and somehow manage to not get disqualified?

I guess this is all kind of silly, but I can't resist pointing out when people think they are saying what they mean, when in reality, what they say means different than they mean. Language is friggin important people! It's the only way you can be understood. USE IT.

Mr Goat, you are taking that a little to literally, windows has default keyboard and mouse drivers. Plug in any keyboard or any mouse into windows and it'll function as a keyboard or mouse. However certain mice and certain keyboard require special drivers to access special functionality within them. As an example, compare the wolfking warrior gamepad (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16823146004) and the ideazon FANG gamepad (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...2E16823161023). The FANG comes with a special cd with special drivers, that allow you to map the keys to different characters or combinations of characters. The Wolfking on the otherhand, acts just like your normal everyday keyboard, except it has a different layout and doesn't have all the letters.

As for ANets wording, it's perfectly fine, you are allowed to bring your own keyboard and mouse and plug them into the machines ANet / NCSoft have already setup (which includes windows default drivers), you're just not allowed to install any software that could potentially give you an advantage over another player.

Straight from the horses mouth...

"...You agree not to use any hardware or software, including but not limited to third party tools, or any other method of support which may in any way influence or advantage your use of the Service which is not authorized by NC Interactive, including but not limited to the use of 'bots' and/or any other method by which the Service may be played automatically without human input..."

In lay man terms a program that automates the game so there is no human input. Third Party Tools in that paragraphs generalises all tools but later on it goes into specifics terms. So keyboard macros are ok as long as they dont automate playing without your input. So basically general action ---> specific example of what is meant by that term.

How this works... go pull out any home contents insurance terms and conditions. Look under say for example "Fire" you would think it covers fires and all fire related damage but later on it may say only where the damage is caused by direct flame and not smoke damage. See General then specific.

Just because it says flat out you can't use them, but you must read it in context with the intention of the writer. If it meant all tools there would be no need for the second part about bots etc.

For those that may say third party tools can influence matches (GvG)... I would like you to post a scenario where some one can write a macro that would cover all situations that would warrant bannage. I don't think anyone can... thats the beauty of GW the metagame and the vast amount of combos that can be used not one person or guild can write a macro that can chain a set of skills together to gain an unfair advantage.

So I think its safe to say you can use keyboard macros as long as they aren't part of an automation system where you can play the game without you not actually being there.

Just my 0.02cents

EDIT *** This is in reply to the OP and not the sub topic of bring third party things to tournaments and such ***

Now you find out.... american software litigation is a poorly defined and thought out morass, and EULAs are toilet paper.

They won't even think of banning you unless they log on and see you are doing something really annoying/bad with it. No way the client can detect driver-level things (thats how "wallhacks" got/gets around those punkbusters in FPS)

If bots need to scan the GW memory to get around, that's another level of intrusiveness. If it modifies that memory to interact rather than sending keystrokes, that's yet another level.

Bots are rarely banned as is, so not like it really matters.

This type of EULA pretty much makes everyone in violation of it so they do not need a *legal* reason to ban. Reality, of course, is something different. Random bans for no real reason means no one plays their game. It is standard in EULA's to do this. In the end they can simply point to that clause that you agreed on and point out it is "3'rd party" no matter what software you used.

Yes, by strict reading (yes, they also give specific examples but point out it is *not* limited too, whereas your insurance *is* limiting it) your mouse driver, Teamspeak, Vent, video driver, etc is infringing - it is all 3'rd party and interacting with GW (even if the game itself is requesting such a thing). If you are using it to play GW in any way it is interacting with - especially true if it is sending it keyboard/mouse actions or reading/displaying the graphics.

There is no difference, from the game mechanics points of view, of someone using a bot and some person sitting on a keyboard - they both interact with the game at the same level. In fact, I highly suspect that Anet uses quite a few automated testing tools - I know I do in the software I produce (and there are packages that can mimic pretty much any interface).

Though, in the end EULA's and these type of clauses have not really been tested in court yet. It will most likely be many many years before they are (and will most likely loose). They are too broad and there is no negotiation on the contract. In a sense, it is like the signs on the back of dump trucks: "please stay 500 feet away, not responsible for falling objects". Well, yes, you are. It's mostly put there because most will read it and move on if they violate it.

Personally, I wouldn't hesitate to use said macros. They are trying to ban bots, not that type of thing. If you are at the top end of the ladder I would hesitate using much of anything (they may care then, plus you can not use it in the tournaments you would be trying to enter), but that is a special case. I do not see how they could detect it anyway. Anet uses this for bots, which you are not remotely doing.

As for answers from their support e-mail - be careful there also. Even was this coming from Gail herself I wouldn't - those teams and the ones that ban are quite different teams (note that she is wrong from time to time because of misunderstanding between teams - and no, I do not think they are lies). Especially support - IIRC that is ncsoft and is most likely low paid people trying to get you off their backs. Pretty much anyone that has been a manager on a large project knows what I mean, even outside of software.

In the end, take this as a sorta lawyer answer - any third party program violates the TOS. Even further any automation tools do as they are specifically stated. No matter what - that is the final and official position. However, from a "reality" position not only can they not tell you are using what you describe, also if they ban that type of thing and are that strict they will not have a user base. They have stated over and over that they seek to ban bots that require little to no human interface to play the game, nothing else. I would believe them and use one were I interested.

ok enough of this!!1

this is not a thread about how legal to use a keyorad/key assign to dance emo/zborad/ or wheaver!!

again any 3rd party prog is illegal that simple.
if you use that prog u might get banned.

plz close this.
p.s im so sry ofr trooing or w/e but you pips go so of subject. if u want you want ot make thread about this subject then fine. but the man just ask a simple Q.

Just to add to the trash-talking the EULA, the EULA is not legally binding in any meaningful sense. Anet can ban you (or ban everyone, or stop hosting their game) whenever they want, for any reason they want or no reason at all. (And every online game I can think of has the same rights.)

So the rules about bots, etc. are just guidelines of how Anet would like you to play, and if you follow them then you probably won't get banned. There is no official definition of 'third party program'. It means whatever they want it to, and they've said that a keyboard macro and an operating system are not third party programs.

So thank goodness for that.

Sir, I will troo whatever pips I please. A simple "Q" can have a complex "A", ofr we troo ot emo, zborad!

Now if you will excuse me, I believe I have some progs to wheave. Sry!