Still learning PvE sin; I like my build, but could it be improved?

Nexus Icon

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2005

Natis Ignigena

Me/

23 Dec 2006 at 22:46 - 1

K, I've just recently got back into playing my sin. I have all of the basic skills and all of the Factions elites bar Moebius Strike.
I know it's probably not original, but I was chuffed to have come up with this build all by myself.

Dagger Mastery 14
Critical Strikes 15
Deadly Arts 4 (currently not used for anything)

[card]shadow walk[/card][card]seeping wound[/card][card]black spider strike[/card][card]death blossom[/card][card]black lotus strike[/card][card]twisting fangs[/card][card]dash[/card][card]resurrection chant[/card]

I've found that this does fantastic damage, but once it's been fired off, you'd better get out of trouble and wait for cooldowns.
Obviously there's no survivability built in as well.
I use seeping wound an the target before engaging (to help start off BSS & BLS), then I step in with Shadow Walk.
As Shadow Walk is a stance, it can be easily cancelled with Dash, popping me out of combat at a moment's notice.

Now whilst I'm very proud of my efforts, I'm sure there's room for improvement which is why I've posted this here.
Sin isn't my primary profession, so comparitively, I'm a noob at it.

So what do you guys reckon?
Too many attacks?
Too many of the wrong attacks?
Bad elite?
Attributes too dedicated?
Not enough survivability?

It's faring me very well at the moment, but if I can make more things die quicker and on a more regular basis, clue me in

wilebill

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2005

Mt Vernon, Ohio

Band of the Hawk

W/Mo

23 Dec 2006 at 23:16 - 2

Well, this build is unorthodox but has worked well all over Factions, both the far south of the Luxon and Kurzick areas. It is a combo of ranged and melee attack designed to be used with henchmen, or players.

Crit 8, Dagger 12, Shadow 10, Marksmanship 10

Shadow Refuge
Jagged Strike
Wild Strike
Critical Strike
Moebius Strike
Viper's Defense
Read The Wind
Dash

Zealous Daggers combined with Critical Strike give you plenty of energy, probably don't even need 8 points in Critical Strikes.

Runes are all minors, leaving me with 560 hp, enough to keep from being high profile for the mobs, and able to absorb hits from elementalists.

General theory is to initiate combat with a longbow, and maintain bow fire until the henchies are aggroed. Then switch to dagger, run or dash in, kill a softie, and get out. The combo shown is fast recharge and works very well even without Moebius. Turn on Viper's Defense before attacking and leave them poisoned when you go, if they're still alive.

This build gives you a lot of flexibility, with enough ranged damage to matter, with the option of switching to a high damage dagger combo when that is a better idea.

I have no pride. I'd throw grenades if Assassins could equip them!

Nexus Icon

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2005

Natis Ignigena

Me/

23 Dec 2006 at 23:29 - 3

Thanks for the build, but not quite what I was after (especially as I don't have Moebius at the moment)

I was wondering if people had suggestions on improving my build, not completely replacing it, lol.

Aehron

Academy Page

Join Date: May 2005

Frogs In The Ghetto Say Moo [DaWg]

Me/E

24 Dec 2006 at 00:10 - 4

I'd say that, for PVE, your build is quite good. The thing that bothers me most about sins in PvE is that most single-attack-chain builds lack sustainable damage. Your combination of two short attack chains provides pretty solid sustained DPS, along with the added max degen if both chains are combined in the case of a boss. The dependency on a hex is kinda meh, but I feel like the damage output that you get for it makes it solid nonetheless, especially if you can snag a SS nec with reckless haste to AoE hex for you!

The only major thing that I would suggest is: consider swapping out shadow walk for shadow of haste. With the investment of a few attribute points, you can renew SoH before it wears off, meaning that you don't have to deal with jumping backwards every time a skirmish ends. SoH also provides a small runspeed buff, which is always nice for chasing mobs. The downside is that you'd actually have to run in initially, but given that you're set up for sustained DPS, you have to be reasonable comfortable commiting to staying in battle unless you become a major damage sponge. Sins do burst damage well, but sustained is more fashionable for PvE - at least having a constant runspeed boost allows you to get away from mobs, and not just up to them. If you find SoH to be too tedious and would rather just shadow walk in and then pop back after a skirmish, do whatever suits your personal playstyle best.

Survivability is certainly an issue, but smart teleporting should serve you fairly well, as long as you have a monk that understands that ANY frontline melee class is going to require some healing. Once they realize that you require LESS than most due to your manuverability, perhaps they'll lighten up.

Props to you so far... I'd certainly want you in my groups!

Edit: regarding "bad elite," most people would probably say yes. However, for the purposes of sustained DPS, none of the assassin elites are particularly stellar. With your build, I feel like seeping wound provides a very useful hex to allow for a particularly strong attack chain. You've found an intellegent use for you, so don't let the masses dissuade you if they offer no more reason than "seeping wound sux".

Edit 2: I played around with your build a bit, and I feel like the only place that it's lacking is in the attack skill recharges. Even though you have very solid attack skills, you still have a fair amount of time just standing around autoattacking, which is pretty ineffective for an assassin. Here's an alternate build that I found to be pretty sustainable in terms of DPS, with considerable survivability:

Assassin/Warrior
Level: 20

Critical Strikes: 13 (12+1)
Dagger Mastery: 14 (11+3)
Shadow Arts: 7 (6+1)

- Wild Blow (Warrior other)
- Unsuspecting Strike (Critical Strikes)
- Wild Strike (Dagger Mastery)
- Critical Strike (Critical Strikes)
- Palm Strike [Elite] (Critical Strikes)
- Twisting Fangs (Critical Strikes)
- Death's Retreat (Shadow Arts)
- Resurrection Signet ()

Wild blow gets rid of annoying stances and is practically a free attack with zealous daggers... it also allows you to attack through Aegis and such. The first attack chain (unsuspecting --> wild --> critical) goes a long way toward paying for itself with critical strike, and recharges extremely quickly. Wild strike is there just for the damage bonus, since it was one of two offhand attacks that didn't have a condition (hexed, enchanted) to hit. The other is fox fangs, a very nice skill, but it has an 8s recharge. Unsuspecting does borderline unfair damage to pretty much everyone, since in PvE you very often swap to new targets with full health. I couldn't think of a particularly strong elite, so palm strike seemed ok with high crit strikes anyway - a free 75 damage that cannot be blocked or mitigated by armor. It also allows you to hit twisting fangs immediately afterward, making for a nice boss- or warrior-killer. Death's retreat is a quick 82hp that'll take you back to your monks, should you get in trouble.

Try it, see what you think! If you'd still rather go A/Mo, consider filling wild blow's slot with mending touch for nasty conditions. You won't even have to reallocate any attributes from the build above. I know that you said you didn't want to completely remake your build, but trying this will at least give you something fairly different to compare.

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Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2005

Natis Ignigena

Me/

24 Dec 2006 at 08:51 - 5

Thanks Aehron, that's the kinda stuff I was looking for

The monk secondary is only there for the hard res, and I'm not fussy about keeping it, so I'll definitely give yours a try. I was using a similar attack chain (sans Palm Strike) before making this build, so I'm used to how it works.

Thanks for reminding me about Wild Blow on a sin too, I figured it would be pretty indispensible and better on a sin than a warrior, but I plum forgot about it

I'm also getting used to the idea that a sin is more effective running 3 attribute lines quite high, but none maxed. Coming from playing a warrior where 16 in your weapon attribute is pretty much mandatory, this is a refreshing change

Yanman.be

Banned

Join Date: Dec 2005

Belgium

[ROSE]

A/

24 Dec 2006 at 11:01 - 6

It'll work in PvE. Seeping wound is meh, but it'll do.

Skyreal

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Oct 2006

Zeros Elite Knights Of Chaos [Zero]

A/

24 Dec 2006 at 11:42 - 7

I used a build with a similar concept, but different skills. In place of Seeping Wounds I had Assassin's Promise, and in place of Shadow Step and Dash I had Death's Charge and Heart of Shadow. Obviously with these skills you have to spread your attributes a little thinner. I think my base points ended up being something like 10 CS, 10 DM, 10 DA and 5 SM, or maybe I tweaked it a bit (I forget). For slightly less damage, you get inifite usage of your combo (as long as your target dies in one combo). Healing from the shadow spells are just a small bonus.

jesh

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

San Diego, CA

Penguin Village

Mo/

24 Dec 2006 at 11:46 - 8

I would think the most obvious suggestion would be to use another dual attack. Why have two offhands and not 2 dual attacks?
Horns of the Ox, Blades of Steel, and Death Blossom are the most popular choices.

P.S. Assassin's Promise works fine with 0 in deadly arts. =P

Skyreal

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Oct 2006

Zeros Elite Knights Of Chaos [Zero]

A/

24 Dec 2006 at 12:39 - 9

I disagree. My experience is Assassin's promise works a lot better with more points in Deadly Arts because you get more energy back, so that you can continue to spam your skills (instead of waiting for energy).

Also, he does have Death Blossom (in addition to Twisting Fangs) on his bar.

I remember what my build was. It did not have Black Lotus Strike or Twisting Fangs - instead it had Signet of Toxic Shock and Impale. My attributes were 12+3+1 DM, 12+1 DA and 3+1 SM. The signet is a Nightfall skill, which I assume won't be a problem since you have Shadow Walk. In some places (like where rangers use Whirling Defense) I replaced Return or the res skill with Way of the Fox.

The biggest weakness of an Assassin's Promise build is if the hex gets removed you'll be standing around unable to attack for the longest time. When I know there's a good chance that the hex will be removed I bring along something like Parasitic Bond - it can cover Assassin's Promise, and if AP still gets removed I can at least use it to trigger the Black dagger attacks while waiting for AP to recharge.

Darkpower Alchemist

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jan 2006

NYC

The Circle Of Nine[NINE]

E/N

24 Dec 2006 at 12:40 - 10

Death Blossom is an awesome attack in PvE, as it is what you would want when trying to beat back encroaching enemies from all sides.

Unsuspecting strike is an awesome skill. It is underused due to its cost, but with zealous daggers and a a high CS attribute energy is never a problem. Auto attacking may not cause major damage, but it can keep up the pressure that you initially started with the combo.

I questioned wild blow and wild strike being on the same bar for a moment, but now realize that strike isn't useable if it's a stance like WD, that can make you miss.

[skill=big]Wild Strike[/skill]

Needs to connect to be successful, but most used stances make you miss .

[skill=big]Wild Blow[/skill]

This is actually superior on a sin. Never would have thought it was...

Aehron

Academy Page

Join Date: May 2005

Frogs In The Ghetto Say Moo [DaWg]

Me/E

24 Dec 2006 at 17:20 - 11

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aehron

Wild strike is there just for the damage bonus, since it was one of two offhand attacks that didn't have a condition (hexed, enchanted) to hit. ^-- As quoted from my post above.

Yeah, it's not such a hot skill if you're actually looking to cancel enemy stances. Like I said above, it was the only offhand attack that I could find that didn't have a longer recharge than crit strike (thereby limiting the downtime of the combo) and didn't demand a condition, such as "target must be hexed" or "you must be enchanted". It's not an amazing skill, but it's fast, and a solid +33 damage at 14 dagger. Those are my main reasons for throwing it in there... if it actually does get rid of an annoying stance, even just balanced stance (which messes up your crits), more power to it.

I haven't played with death blossom as much as I probably should, since I really love the deep wound from TF on bosses. However, it could very easily be subbed for TF and either chained directly into the first combo when up, or just used as palm strike --> death blossom. It certainly sounds like a strong choice. The reason that I would not replace crit strike is: 1. Fast recharge, and 2. With zealous daggers, you get +2 energy from zealous, and then +6 energy because both attacks result in a crit automatically, resulting in a free attack, plus a net energy of 3. It's surprisingly strong for sustained DPS.

Edit: From what I've read, assassin's promise is pretty solid for sustained DPS too, though having it removed could really mess you up - other than that, it seems great. I've not yet tried it, as I haven't capped the skill in PvE, and from the OP's post, neither has he. Perhaps we'll both have to give it a try, once we get a chance.

jesh

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

San Diego, CA

Penguin Village

Mo/

24 Dec 2006 at 19:03 - 12

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyreal
I disagree. My experience is Assassin's promise works a lot better with more points in Deadly Arts because you get more energy back, so that you can continue to spam your skills (instead of waiting for energy).

Also, he does have Death Blossom (in addition to Twisting Fangs) on his bar. Woooow I was up late. I don't know how I missed that. As for the points in Deadly Arts, I still do disagree with you. If you have decent CS, which you should anyways, you don't need the energy gain back from the skill that badly, you just need your combo recharged. And it does still recharge all your skills, regardless of Deadly Arts level.
As a cover hex, I don't bother with Parasitic Bond or something, I'd rather use Siphon Speed/Expose Defenses.

Sqube

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2006

Behind you...

A/

26 Dec 2006 at 02:57 - 13

I find your build fairly interesting. However, I think that you would do better using [skill=text]Parasitic Bond[/skill] as your hex. That would allow you to use your elite slot for, you know, anything else.

In addition, the fact that Parasitic Bond is 5/1/2 means that you can cast it repeatedly in the case that it's removed. If you take those 4 points out of Deadly Arts and put them into Curses, you can also get 54 health after 20 seconds, when your opponent dies, or when the hex is removed (whichever happens first).

This will also allow you to minimize the amount of downtime that you might be spending due to your hex. Looking at your skillbar, however, it appears fairly obvious to me that you weren't waiting for your hex to recharge. If you're so inclined, the use of Parasitic Bond will allow you to use Moebius Strike as your elite, which will really minimize your wait times. You could also try out Assassin's Promise as your hex, if you're confident that you'll be able to kill your target within the time frame. It'll also take care of that cooldown issue you're having, and give you some extra energy to boot. I think either of those would work quite nicely for your needs.

As a matter of fact, thinking about your build has given me the idea of working Parasitic Bond into my own build and changing it. I'm currently using US --> WS --> CS, but Unsuspecting Strike's energy cost can become prohibitive over the long term. Combining Parasitic Bond with Black Lotus Strike or Black Spider Strike, and finishing off with Twisting Fangs to Moebius Strike... there could be real potential there.

Wow, even though you created this thread for getting help, thanks for pointing me in a new direction. I doubt what I'm thinking is new, but I like to develop my own builds, and this is good times.

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Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2005

Natis Ignigena

Me/

26 Dec 2006 at 09:18 - 14

Yeah, I've been toying with the idea of long-lasting necro hexes on the build for a while.
The only thing stopping me was the drop in degen; the extra -4 from Seeping Wound was really quite nice, but using Moebius (which I've since capped by the way ) would allow me to keep swinging.
Only problem then is the fact that I'd lose a bit of the mobility that the build currently has.
I'll have a play, see what I think. As I'm mostly playing with heroes and henchies at the mo, I may drop res to maintain mobility. We'll see.

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Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2005

Natis Ignigena

Me/

26 Dec 2006 at 18:55 - 15

Okay, I've played around with necro hexes, and while spammable, the usefulness is questionable.
I've also started incorporating Moebius Strike for fantastically constant damage output, most noticeable against bosses and higher level mobs.
My newest build, and the one I'm most happy with so far (although getting out of a fight can be a problem) is:

Dagger Mastery: 14
Critical Strikes: 14
Deadly Arts: 7
Healing Prayers: 2

[card]expose defenses[/card][card]death's charge[/card][card]black spider strike[/card][card]death blossom[/card][card]black lotus strike[/card][card]twisting fangs[/card][card]moebius strike[/card][card]resurrection chant[/card]

This doesn't compromise the damage output I was initially going for, whilst it also insures a hit thanks to Expose Defenses (apart from being blinded or having vision blurred, natch), and maintains an impressively high level of damage thanks to Moebius Strike, which also, if used intelligently, allows effective swapping of targets and continuation of attacks.
I think I may start being naughty and dropping the res too so I can incorporate the Shadow Walk / Dash combo for extra mobility.
I tried Shadow of Haste instead and didn't like the way it worked. I've gotten too used to jumping in, doing damage, then jumping out.

Overall, I feel that this is a pretty damn strong damage-oriented build now, especially if there are some other hex chuckers on the team to allow easier switching of targets.
It has really made me appreciate assassins, and as a long-time Warrior, also makes me somewhat envious due to the level of damage it can deliver in such a short space of time.

Diddy bow

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2006

Jawsome!!!!!!!!!!!

looking for one :p

A/D

26 Dec 2006 at 21:57 - 16

id say switch death blossom for horns of the ox and see how gd it is with mobius
Expose defense is really gd you should keep using it.
What about some healing in your build? i know it isnt REALLY nessessery but i guess you dont have room for it

Nexus Icon

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2005

Natis Ignigena

Me/

26 Dec 2006 at 22:53 - 17

I tend to rely on my heroes for heals, or decent human monks.
It's best to focus on doing one thing really well and not trying to be a Jack of all trades I've found.

As for HOx vs. Death Blossom, I went for DB as it's not as conditional as HOx and is the highest damage offhand out there. Plus, the AoE damage from DB is very nice.
Okay, I lose a snare for potential runners, but things don't really run that much in PvE. If they do, I can dash to keep hitting them (as long as I remember that it cancels Shadow Walk ).

Edit: Of course, that's as long as I don't bring res

Sqube

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2006

Behind you...

A/

27 Dec 2006 at 19:06 - 18

I can understand that you're not trying to be a jack of all trades, but a self heal... it's downright necessary in my opinion.

Unless you have a monk dedicated to yourself, you should have a self-heal. What if someone hits your monk with Blackout? You could die while waiting for that to finish, know what I mean?

And if you're worried about a snare, I guess you could always replace Expose Defenses with Siphon Speed. Sometimes you've got to make sacrifices...