Abaddon and Mursaat

in my opinion 2 anser this question we must first find the link between the Mursaat and the Seers that infuse our armor. if u bother 2 lisn 2 the seer hesays his ppl hav been fight the Mursaat for ages and that he is only helping us so that we forful the flame secer profacy and that Glint had contactd them and told them this also that he has travld a long distanc and wateda long tym for us 2 get there *in my opinion sounds lyk smeegle :P* y are they fighting the Mursaat? makes u think glint told them we r gana kill the Mursaat who gard the door that frees the titans *Abaddon minions* i woder if its the seers linkd 2 Abaddon not the mursaat?

Margonites are just "blessed" humans. Nothing more or less. We are told that in the game.

Mursaat are described as "a race of powerful spell casters". Characters throught the game depict them as old and as coming from(or their home being) the Maguma. Margonites were the first to come to the Crystal desert seeking ascension &/or wage the epic battle against teh 5 gods.

It just doesn't seem like they are very connected. People have made some compairisons, but I see very little in common. Yeah, the warlock has the little wingy things, but GW recycles skeletons all the time.

i thought the mursaat were from another world i could of sword glint said that in a cut sceen hmm... ill have to start looking around now

Honestly I think you are right. But it's also said that thier Saul D'alessio found their home in the Maguma and founded the WHite Mantle. But I reacall something about them being from another world as well. Maybe I'm wrong, but..

I have finally found the answer about the Mursaat and Abaddon after explaining something about the Charr and their purpose during the past and present. When someone mentioned Garfaz Steelfur I had to look him up on the wiki. Then I just noticed the dialogues in the quests that were given and the Unseen were mentioned.

You get the starting quest from Commander Thurnis. I wonder if the quest came up after the last update.

First you do the "Missing Patrol" quest. Then the second quest "The Oddbodies" is about Abaddon's rejects who want to prevent Abaddon from being released.

Here's the reward dialogue
"The Captain gave me a very interesting report. He claims Abaddon's forces are summoning a new demonic ally... a powerful being known as the Unseen. It is a terrible creature, the likes of which we have never seen before. It is clear to me, however, that he has no proof and is simply compensating for his past... indescretions... by fabricating a dire plot. In any case, you have my thanks for returning him... and his squad."

After that, another quest called "Into the Fire" is given.
Here's the dialogue from this one "Those foolish followers of Captain Yithlis embarked on a mission without orders! They knew I did not believe their wild tales, yet they've gone to find proof of this Unseen. They intend to find the location where they say Abaddon's followers will summon this terrible demon. They have yet to return."

Then the reward dialogue, "Captain Yithlis: "It's clear to me now. The way we were singled out and assaulted proves we were correct regarding Abaddon's plan to summon the Unseen. We will continue our search for the summoning grounds and send word when we discover it. Until then, may the gods watch over you."

And here's the final dialogue from the last quest "The Last Patrol"
"Captain Yithlis: "I am glad you could make it, <player name>. We have located the place where Abaddon's servants intend to raise this demon. We are ready to begin the assault. It would be an honor to fight by your side in the defense of our people."

Intermediate Dialog 2:
Captain Yithlis (addressing all): "We all know what's at stake. If the Unseen is unleashed, Abaddon will gain a powerful ally, powerful enough to shatter his chains! That's not going to happen! Not while we are able to do something about it! Forward march! May the gods have mercy on their souls!"

Now to explain a few things. So now we know that the Unseen were somehow created by Abaddon. They were just demons waiting to be released. It explains why the Jade Armor looks like Abaddon. But why would the Mursaat prevent the Titans from being summoned? Let's just say none of the followers of Abaddon liked each other. It was mentioned that Garfaz's band of Charr had their souls devoured by the Titans. It could mean that the Titans are too strong and/or the Lich lord found a new toy to play with instead of the Mursaat that were defeated by the heroes of Prophecies and seemed weak. Ever since the Titans were released, pretty much all of the Mursaat are dead now.

But why would the Unseen/Mursaat helped Saul D'Alessio to fight against the Charr? The Charr was used as pawns for Abaddon. Since the Mursaat somehow aided Saul with the fight against the Charr and won, he ended up worshiping them and created the White Mantle. If you were on the brink of death and a miracle person came by and saved you, wouldn't you worship that savior? Anyway, after all that with the help of the White Mantle, the Unseen were able to show up on Tyria.

Also the Charr was used to march into Orr to seek ascension of some sort. Knowning that the Vizier had no other option to stop them, he was tricked to cause "The Cataclysm" that destroyed Orr for good, including everyone that was there.

So who are the Seers!? With their ugly flesh, 4 arms, and floating skills. It is a forgotten and those djnns in NF combined.

I'd guess that the Unseen in those quests would be one powerful demon rather than the Mursaat. Compared to the inhabitants of the Realm of Torment, the Mursaat were actually pretty pathetic.

Although I suppose the demons responsible may be thinking that Infusion would be hard to get in the Realm of Torment, my inclination would be to suspect that the similarity in names may be coincidence rather than a link. It's less confusing to the storyline that way.

I suspect the Unseen was basically a MacGuffin, which the writers may not even have decided exactly what it is. If they had decided on what it was, chances are the players would have arrived just too late to prevent the summoning - even if it is just one Mursaat to scare potentially uninfused characters with a dose of Spiritual Agony.

Mursaat are surely not servants of Abbadon... why would they try to seal their God away? After all abbadons mouth leads to the Domain of Anguish...

The Mursaat didn't seal their God away, it was the Titans that they feared. Like I said, the servants of Abaddon probably didn't like each other. Or the Mursaat didn't do their jobs properly which resulted in the release of the Titans by the Lich Lord. Or, the Lich Lord knew about the Titans and a way of controlling them. He didn't commanded the Mursaat but he knew how to control the titans with the scepter of Orr.

Ah, but our characters *are* tainted. They fought Abaddons servants - Lich and Shiro - and they fought Abaddon himself. Remember that they had the Plague also. That means they are all touched by Abaddon. I'd like to see our characters given a choice to become either "bad" or "good" in the following chapter.

The Titans wiped out the mursaat for some reason, if they had been supporters of Abaddon they would have been in DoA with all the other souls tainted by the touch of abaddon. So presumable instead they joined the Gods in the mists. Thus making them non aligned to Abaddon.

They would have helped release him otherwise which the clearly were against considering they build a massive city/fortress around the Door of Komalie (which was held closed by special mursaat Ether Seals know as the soul batterys.)

If you notice the mursaat architechure, if crops up around points that link to the gods, eg. they have contructed things around some of the blood stones, they protect the Door of Komalie, they also have architechure in RoT and DoA, this could be because they helped the gods create the prision for Abaddon and him getting the titans to kill them weakened there magic keeping Abaddon locked away (thus allowing him to become stronger in the mortal realm, thus allowing him to ressurect Shiro as his envoy and possibly to spawn Oni(i always wondered where they came from.))

First, there is one other thing I'd like to point out: in the Ice caves of sorrow mission, the cage the Mursaat keep the prisoners in is a massive wood and steel structure, resembling the Deldrimor architectural style. Maybe the Mursaat are really the power behind Deldrimor, and the Stone summit are the good guys, opposing the Mursaat!

Ridiculous of course - the base the Mursaat took is a Stone summit outpost the Mursaat captured and simply use it as a base while they are still there.

However, the same applies to the Ring of fire islands! The Mursaat aren't necessarily the ones who built the whole fortress - the fortress could predate their era. After all, the bloodstones were created by the gods, and possibly, unwilling as he may have been to do so, Abaddon or forces under his control participated in the creation of the Ring of fire bloodstone, or resisted its creation and left their relics there upon their defeat. The Mursaat may then have simply arrived on site and used what was available.

There are alternative interpretations available.

Possibly, the Mursaat recognized the threat of the Titans, arrived at the Ring of fire and found Abaddon's "technology" and developed it further, making the Jade armors upon the same principles Abaddon used for his monolyths.

In the end, I see the Mursaat as just another group concerned with their own interests. Extremely powerful on their own (invisible to all but the chosen, deadly to all but the infused...), they still recognized the danger the titans posed and strived to keep the titans away using existing seals like the door of Komalie. Saul d'Alesio may have found their jungle city by chance, with the Mursaat realizing he could be of use in controlling humanity, or, the Mursaat might have led him there specifically to gain the first follower. Either way, Mursaat don't care about humanity, keeping it ignorant (remember those lessons in Divinity coast?) and using it's best to power the door of Komalie.

I'll write more on the grand unifying theory of how the whole thing actually fits together some other time.

Ah but u forget the the bloodstones were the the volcanoe, they were just stones then they had no architecture on them. The stones only reappeared in recent years meaning that the contruction on the stones was a recent thing, the margonites and Abaddon were long gone by then. The mursaat are involved with most of the sites where that artitecture is.

As for your metaphor well i wont even go into how flawed your own logic is.

Well the mursaat werent invisable to anyone they simply were hidden by hidding in there strongholds and not letting others see them in person. And Saul D'Elessio never saw them, they simply spoke to him hence why they are called 'the Unseen ones.'

It is possible they adapted after finding such architechure i agree, but its also possible they build it, hence why in my previous message it says 'they could' and not 'they are'. Neither do we truely know the motives behind anythign the mursaat did. But they could be caring for the races, or they could be uncaring for other races we just dont know its all speculation

This is my take on the Murssat.

The Mursaat had only one care - To save their own race. They knew about the Flameseeker Prophecies that told of their race being wiped out. They needed a way to stop this from happening.

Then Saul D'lessio stumbles across them in there home in the Magumma Jungle and they saw him as a way to stop the end of their race. They begin organising laws for his newly formed White Mantle - and give them instructions to kill any who are deemed worthy of the Eye of Janthr - The Chosen who are fortold to be the cause of the Mursaat being wiped out.

Since the thing they were trying to stop from being unleashed was located in the Ring Of Fire island chain they moved there to keep a closer guard on it. The Bloodstone was already there being one of the ones scattered across Tyria.

But remember the place the fortress is found is called Abaddons Mouth - it is possible that everything found there was left behind by the followers of Abaddon before they began defacing the temples leading to the war. The Mursaat simply used these left over structures as their means of guarding the place.

The Titans are servants of Abaddon and are able to be controlled by The Scepter Of Orr. They begin rampaging across Tyria after the Lich is defeated and the Scepter vanishs. They do what was fortold and wipe out the Mursaat whilst attacking different areas. If the Mursaat were anyway related to Abaddon they would of allowed his plans for Tyria to go ahead. The Titans would not have destroyed them and the White mantle would possibly never have been.

Thats my take on the whole Mursaat thing

The problem with these sorts of "Glint and/or the Seers are working for Abaddon" theories is that afterwards, Glint and the Seers were just as eager to see the Titans dealt with as the players. My take on it is simply that they saw the Mursaat as the greater threat, and figured that the Titans could be contained afterwards and that the breaking of the Mursaat was worth the damage caused by the Titans.

Whether, ultimately, the Glint and the Seers really have humanity's best interests at heart is a different question entirely, but they don't appear to be knowingly working for Abaddon. Of course, it is possible that they've been played by Abaddon in much the same way as the Vizier played the player characters.

(To be honest, part of me wonders if this is why so little lore is available on the Mursaat. Maybe they're just the MacGuffin for what drives the world's defenders to open the first crack in Abaddon's prison themselves...)

Look, I'm just pointing out that the similarity between Abaddon's "imagery" and the Mursaat Jade armors does not necessarily mean that the Mursaat are allied with Abaddon. I just showed a ridiculous expansion of the idea to show why it doesn't necessarly mean anything.

The problem is that the similarity has to oppose the constant opposition of the Mursaat to both the titans and the Lich - both the direct undisputable servants of Abaddon. That speaks a lot more against an alliance than simple six eyed armours do for an alliance.

Also, I know the bloodstones spent most of the past inside the volcano. However, we see that the whole island has been worked on, in at least two architectural styles: the fortress of purple stone, inhabited by the Mursaat, and the stone demonic heads and skulls all over the island.

All I'm saying that the fortress does not have to be Mursaat made. It likely is, even I think it really is, but we don't know for sure. So, we have to weight the evidence.

As for the bridge: that's the standard imagery of a river of souls. Remember, the souls of the chosen are not focused on the bloodstone, at least not all of them. Remember the bonus for the mission - a soul is freed and taken to a resting place quite far from the bloodstone itself.

A little insite that I got while researching the lore of Guild Wars:

1 The Mursaat are not gods, it was Saul De-Alessio that chose to worship them when he was at his most despondent after he heard their voices. The Mursaat were protecting the Door Of Komalie to keep it fom beign opened by the followers of Abbadon (the Flameseeker). They used the chosen's souls to power the Bloodstone to keep the Door of Komalie closed. The Bloodstone was dropped on the Ring of Fire by the 5 Gods when they left the human rhealm. The Mursaat used the White Mantel to help in keeping theDoor of Komalie closed. This leads me to think that the Mursaat were good, just misunderstooddue to their actions.
2 Glint is a proffet(dang it cannot spell worth a crap) not a seer. She is one of the race of dragons that went into hiding during the first Guild Wars. She is the one that foresaw the FlameSeeker Profecies.
3 The margonites are the unseen servants of Abbadon. We learn that just playing through NightFall.
4 The Seers have been fighting the Elodians for a very long time. Several times they ask us to kill them, including when we must get our armor "Infused" to fight the Mursaat.
5 Not sure what the Elodians are but they play a prominant role in us using their "Essence" to infuse our armor to be able to withstand the Mursaats attacks. Too me they look like Squids.
6 In another post I put the cataclysm in, and it was a follower of the king (??) of Orr that chose to use forbidden majic to defeat the invading Char armies. I do not think that Abbadon had anything to do with his choice to use that "Forbidden Litany". Using that spell he utterly destroyed the Char and their army and also destroyed Orr leaving only a scattering of Islands that were chared beyond recognition leaving only the undead to walk the lands.
7 The Undead Litch was apperently trying to do what he did for his own gain. I am not truly convinced he did it for Abbadon. He used the "Chosen" to further his own gains releasing the Titans into Tyria. Tricking all those he came into contact with.

If I come up with more I will post it.

Mega Mouse

you actually researched the lore, if you did, this should have been the second thing you came upon, meaning we all knew this. Nice effort though.

Well we do know the Mursaat are not gods but maybe they think of themselves as gods?. They certainly have the upper hand on Humans being A)More powerful than Humans B) Having much more knowledge of Tyria (and possibly The Mists)than Humans and C) Being able to keep hidden away from Humans.

They know about the Flameseeker Prophecies and the upcoming wipeout of their race and successfully manipulate the White Mantle to begin killing any who may seem able to help the Flameseeker. They seem to be netheir Good nor Evil - They only want to save their race and they will do whatever is possible to acomplish this...just like Humans would do.

Not sure where you got the part of her going into hiding during the Guild Wars from. It was to my understanding Glint was to be the first caretaker of Tyria but she like the Forgotton (who were also caretakers of Tyria) went to a place where the Humans could not and hid in a single grain of sand,her current lair. She at somepoint before or after compiled the Flameseeker Prophecies.

The Margonites were simply Humans. They were seafearing people on the Crystal Sea,who worshipped Abaddon.When the gods created the bloodstone Abaddon opposed this and the Margonites began to deface the temple of the 6 Gods and wage war against the 5 Gods. I'm not sure if its stated anywere but they ether became "Blessed" during the war or when they were pulled down into Torment with Abaddon after his defeat.

You got this the wrong way around. The Seers hunt the Eidolons saying they are evil creatures. But they have been fighting the Mursaat for a very long time. It would seem the Seers lost or were losing the battle. They also seem to oppose the Titans.

The Seer describes the Eidolons are creatures of malice and shade who seem to have a very good natural ressistance to the Mursaats "Spectral Agony" attack. They seem to be creatures that would kill anything so they are not on ether side.

It was Abaddons wish to see Arah destroyed. King Reza's advisor,Vizier Khilbron was somewhat manipulated by Terick to read the scroll that would be the end of Orr. Terick being a demonic minion of Abaddon named in reality Razakel,was to get Khilbron to use this scroll during the Charr invasion (which was brought on by a vision of the Titans who also were servents of Abaddon).

But no matter what the Lich wanted his fate was brought on by Abaddon. The Lich wanted to destroy Tyria and i am sure Abaddon would not of dissagreed.

Heck. It could even be that the Jades are modelled on Abaddon, but not out of any feeling of loyalty. Instead, the Mursaat may have chosen to model the visage of the Jades on the most frightening image they know - that of the creator of the demons that the prophecy states will destroy their race.

Or possibly, the Mursaat are former servants of Abaddon, retaining tools developed under him, conquering an empire with them, and deciding they wouldn't like Abaddon or his titans back...

I thought about my theory for awhile and decided I might be wrong. Since I kept wondering why would Abaddon summon the Mursaat after what happened in Prophecies. If the Unseen and Unseen Ones aren't the same, why would it be an coincidence? Anet could of just made up another name instead of the Unseen. How could they've missed that?

I was wondering why no one else would speculate a consipiracy in Realm of Torment? Just because everyone in RoT is evil, doesn't mean they like each other and have to work together for Abaddon's needs. It's just like the Greek Gods who also struggle to get along with each other.

The Unseen is never seen. Therefore The Unseen seems like a worthy name. The Mursaat were never seen by anyone but Saul up until the move across Tyria in the race to stop the Flameseeker therefore they got named by the Krytans,The Unseen Ones.

I know this is a bit late but I am posting this for all to see. In responce to Free Runner specificaly on the Spelll that was used to destroy Orr. This is directly out of the Guild Wars lore from Guild Wars website and a post I made describing the Kingdom of Orr:

"The king’s own personal advisor in the matters of the arcane took it upon himself to destroy the invaders, no matter the cost. Unrolling one of the Lost Scrolls, kept inside a warded vault deep within the catacombs below Arah, he spoke the words of a litany that spelled the end of the Kingdom of Orr forever."

It never says who the kings advisor is anywhere in the lore. Feel welcome to look for the complete lore in my post on the Kingdom of Orr. Here is the link to that post: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10104661


Mega Mouse

Unfortunatly you cannot base research on what is written on the guild wars website. It is outdated with the release of Nightfall. The kings advisor was Khilbhron. And the story about Terick and the truth behind the destruction of Orr is explained in the Realm Of Torment.

Hmm I went through the Realm of Torment so durn fast I may have missed a bit. Gonna have to check it out.

Mega Mouse

A small little point i though up the other day that kinda links to the mursaat not being aligned with Abaddon is the fact that non of the Dwarves and chosen that the mursaat killed (including the Dwarf kinds brother) are in Abaddons realms where all souls that he has 'touched' or tainted go to even if he did not dirrectly taint them himself.

SPOILERS
I seriously doubt the Mursats were followers of Abaddon(if so they could just as likely have worshiped all six gods), beeng a race of sorcerers perhaps they worshiped something else entirely.

As for an alliance later on with Abbadon, Yes I can see that happen. They opposed Abbadon , and those who oppose Abbadon becomes tainted. So the spirits of the slaughtered & tainted Mursats, if summoned & unleashed would have potentionally given Abaddon an alliance with them. Allies are in my opinion a diffrent party, kinda like the allied Menzies & Dhums Forces which also help Abadonn.

And a question
Does the Lich in Gate of Madness hold the Scepter of Orr?

"The unseen" referred to in Roupe's quote doesn't necessarily refer to the Mursaat.

Here are my reasons:

#1The language of the NPC implies that "The Unseen" is a singular entity.

"if the unseen is unleashed..." as opposed to
"if the unseen are unleashed...".

#2 The moniker "The Unseen" was coined by Krytans - in particular Saul D'elessio the founder of the white mantle. It is unlikely that Abaddon or anyone from Elona would refer to them using the same moniker.

there are good and bad sides to just about all coins (creatures) in tyria.
eg. Mursaat are good and band
good : they wanted to stop the titans from destroying the world.
bad : killed alot of people and wanted to be gods and rule tyria.
ill perhaps post all my coin things later..

You do have reason behind this, but we shoudln't get the good guys/ bad guys reversed. Stone summit are just merely evil dwarves who hates everyone that dwells on their mountains especially humans or other creatures, and all who aid humans (mursaat, deldrimor dwarves).

Coud the Unseen be the:
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Image:Unseen_Fury.jpg
in the picture? sry im really bored

For those referring to Glint as potentially evil, see her character in more than black and white. Have you never read a book, or seen a movie, where there is a character who is "above" good and evil, but just is. Like the floating heads in Charmed (only thing I can think of at the moment). She informs people of the prophecies, I don't think she works actively against the good guys, nor actively against the bad guys. She's there to help Ascend those that have the potential.

she could have been threatened, softspoken, she was more powerful than abbadon with her knowledge, but she did not see it that way, why do you think shes in that grain of sand ;p

I agree with this. Glint does seem above the whole good/evil thing. She is simply the one that helps our heros further. She made the Prophecies and needs to keep our heros on the right track to getting to the final stage.

So, I was doing abbadons mouth today, and i noticed something on the mursaat jade creatures. They have the 6- eyesd pattern on their face.

Now, look at abbadon.
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Image:Abaddon.jpg
They both have this pattern on their face. Im not sure if this has been discussed before, but it sems to wierd to be a coincdence.

Probably a coincidence. It's just like how the Margonite Warlocks look like the Murssat Casters and the Enchanted. And how Shadow Mesmers look like White Mantle Monks. And how Marnta looks like a Xunlai.

But I digress, you must remember that inorder for the Flameseeker Prophecies are to believe, the Titans, servants of Abaddon, were released to *destroy* the Mursaat. Why destroy a race so powerful? If I know Abaddon at all, he loved Shiro and Lich so much, that he still had them serve after death.

Margonites are just human who got blessed by Abaddon.

See: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10095231

and here: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10104892 for more speculation on the exact same subject

In all probability... that design later became the inspiration for the Margonites and for Abaddon....


But in game terms, I'm betting that the Jade Armors and Jade Bows aren't as entirely synthetic as they seam. I'm betting that they are actually the souls of margonites defeated in battle by the Mursaat, trapped in jade, and forced to serve them.

One theory on the Jade Armors is that they originally belonged to Abaddon. The fort in Abaddons Mouth could of belonged to Abaddons followers before the war. Something else which further helps this theory is the soul bridge found near the end of the Abaddons Mouth mission,reappears in Abaddons very lair.

Sometime later the Mursaat could of found the unused Jade Armors and taken them. Jade Armors seem like machines with no free will.

However the Margonites and Mursaat are a different story. People only link them because the Margonite spellcasters float like Mursaat ones like Admael pointed out. Since the Mursaat are trying to stop Abaddons forces (the Titans) from breaking loose they cant be allied to him. The Mursaat may not even know there is a 6th God.