What is wrong with my builf?

Vrake Brae

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Aug 2006

Vrake Brae

E/Mo

what is wrong wit this build:

Flare, Fire Storm, Phoenix, Meteor Shower, Immolate, Lava Font, Mind Burn, Resurrect

I have been useing those skills for months, but every time I go into someones team, and I show my skills, they always tell me to change some of them. I can see nothing wrong with them, but if anyone can give me some explenations, I would be very gratefull.

dudeimoncoke

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2006

many things: 1) fire storm 2) flare 3) lava font 4) no energy management 5) its a builf not a build

Francis Crawford

Forge Runner

Join Date: Dec 2005

Hi! You came to the right place!

1. Most of those skills do way below the theoretical amount of damage. Enemies run away before the Fire Storm or Meteor Shower is over.

2. That running away -- called scatter -- can make your teammates less effective.

3. Flare is actually underrated, but let's not chalk that up entirely to prejudice; in a good build, there are better things to do.

4. You absolutely should use some of the skills that give you energy. Every fire build should have at least two and probably at least three of:

A. Glowing Gaze (Nightfall)
B. Glyph of Lesser Energy
C. Fire Attunement
D. An elite that gives energy, such as Elemental Attunement

5. Searing Flames is far superior to other fire damage elites, such as Mind Burn. I capped it almost as soon as I got to Command Post in Nightfall. If you don't have Nightfall, however, that's not an option for you.

------------------------

Before we try to suggest alternative builds -- which chapter(s) of the game do you have access to, and how far have you gotten?

Also, you can look around this forum for lots of alternative builds.

Vrake Brae

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Aug 2006

Vrake Brae

E/Mo

thanks for the suggestions, i don't have nightfall yet, (most likely will have tommorow), i have gooten up to the christle desert in prophecies (but have droknar's and some of the surrounding area), and am "befriending the kurzick", and have gotten up to the gyala hatchery for the luxon.

Dutch Masterr

Dutch Masterr

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2006

Long Island, NY

Elite Knights [SWAT]

W/

theres a few things wrong. first...always use an attunement (fire, earth, water, air). attunements save you alot of energy. fire storm is a useless skill because it does mediocre damage and it scatters groups. meteor shower is ok for pve, but no really pvp. phoenix and lava front are just pointless skills to be using. flare also does next to no damage.

i use this for pve--fire attunement, aura of restoration, mystic regeneration, searing flames, glowing glaze, liquid flame, meteor shower, optional (i use meteor, fireball or incendicary bonds)

Vrake Brae

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Aug 2006

Vrake Brae

E/Mo

I know that flare does little damage (55 per hit with my character), but I use it to fill in the time when skills are recharging

Skuld

Skuld

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2005

Thousend Tigers Apund Ur Head [Ttgr]

A/

Don't, you'd be better with Conjure Flame and a wand. When your other skills recharge, you won't have the energy to cast them if you've been flare-spamming!

jacen110091

jacen110091

Academy Page

Join Date: Oct 2006

The Eightfold Way [TEW]

E/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Francis Crawford
You absolutely should use some of the skills that give you energy
Quote: Originally Posted by Dutch Masterr always use an attunement (fire, earth, water, air). attunements save you alot of energy. You'll hear that a lot mate!
You *need* to have some form of energy management when playing Pyro!

Quote: well seeing as how I haven't ran a build with a rez in quite a while and still doing fine . ..

anyways, you'll only need a rez on a team that you're unsure of. Any PUGs I'm on, yes I'll bring a rez since I don't know how good they are. With my team of heroes and henchies that I used throughout NF, I haven't needed one for the most part. If you don't die and kill everything fast enough that your team doesn't die, why waste a space on a rez? Even with NF, none of my heroes use a rez except for the monks. Sure there's times that having a rez would've been useful but for me, 90% of the time, it was just a wasted slot.

And yes, monks shouldn't rez in battle since they should be keeping everyone else alive. That's what the henchies rez sigs are for . ..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skuld
you'd be better with Conjure Flame and a wand Indeed, but because I personally like having as few enchants on me as possible when going Pyro, I'd recommend the rather unappreciated MoR...
You're likely to have run out of skills near the end of a small PVE battle, so just cast MoR on any priority target and let them burn for the next 30+ secs . .

Oh and finally, Lava Font is a *great* skill if you are ever under melee pressure! Semi-decent damage and a very small cast/recast/cost . .
It has no use other than that however!

Vrake Brae

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Aug 2006

Vrake Brae

E/Mo

that is the reason that i use lava font, but nobody ever seems to like that reason

jacen110091

jacen110091

Academy Page

Join Date: Oct 2006

The Eightfold Way [TEW]

E/Mo

Aye, I know the feeling . .
But you should use Lava Font only for areas where you know there's going to be a lot of melee . . a lot of enemies actually . .
Up to the Crystal Desert, I don't think you really need it . .

Also, and I may not get the best reception for saying this, but a Nuker really has no need to bring a rez.

I ALWAYS tell my party that I'm not carrying a rez, and I've never faced much hostility because of it... Even staying in the backlines, an Ele with its piddly armor really has no need to worry about other dead team-mates!

Vrake Brae

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Aug 2006

Vrake Brae

E/Mo

Thanks for all your advice

Francis Crawford

Forge Runner

Join Date: Dec 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vrake Brae
that is the reason that i use lava font, but nobody ever seems to like that reason What's good for you personally might not be so great for your teammates.

I'd love to have a skill that has the effect "Target and all nearby foes will stop attacking you and go attack your teammates instead." But other players might not be as thrilled if I ran it.

Enko

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jun 2006

VA

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vrake Brae
what is wrong wit this build:

Flare, Fire Storm, Phoenix, Meteor Shower, Immolate, Lava Font, Mind Burn, Resurrect

I have been useing those skills for months, but every time I go into someones team, and I show my skills, they always tell me to change some of them. I can see nothing wrong with them, but if anyone can give me some explenations, I would be very gratefull. Flare: Fireball is probably a better skill to use. 10 energy, aoe attack, roughly twice the damage, and it won't drain all of your energy from spammage.

Fire storm: Causes almost immediate scatter of enemies which breaks agro off of a tank (Well one who knows how to hold agro anyways). Scatter isn't good for a team as it pretty much sends the mob to the squishie backline

Phoenix: It has its uses but only if you plan on some melee range nuking (so you get both the adjacent hit on them plus the fireball hit). If you're running some sort of ele tank build, its useful (but those tend to be earth)

Meteor Shower: Great skill to use in PVE since it doesn't cause scatter since it hits every 3 seconds. You'll need to know when to use it though since its pointless to cast it on a moving target as by the time it would hit, they would have already moved away from it. Try it on a mob that is focusing on a tank for instance.

Immolate: It also has its uses but I've found Rodgort's Invocation or Mark of Rodgort + Fireball to be more effective.

Lava Font: Causes scatter on enemies it hits which is probably why other people don't like you having it. Plus if a bunch of melee guys are hitting you to warrant the use of Lava Font, you probably should be kiting to try to avoid the agro and get them back on the tank.

Mind Burn: From the description, Mind Burn looks to be a useful skill but there's better ways to light things on fire such as Searing Flames, Mark of Rodgort, Rodgort's Invocation, etc. Also a spell that is spammable and also causes exhaustion can quickly lead you to have no energy.

Resurrect: Most teams should have monks that are good enough to keep you alive or rez you up if someone dies. Resurrect has a slow cast time, revives a teammate with 25% health, and 0 energy so you won't have much use for it in battle. If you still want to bring a rez with you, Resurrection Signet is probably better (if you need to bring a rez along at all). Rebirth might be a better option since if the team is facing a wipe, you can run away and revive the team while pulling them out of agro.

Your build is also lacking any sort of energy management. Since you said you spam Flare while other skills are recharging, that means you're probably out of energy for quite a while and then have to wait to recharge. Use at least Fire Attunement. If you toss in Elemental Attunement as well (they stack), you'll have very few energy problems ever. Other skills such as Glowing Gaze which returns energy if it hits a burning foe are also useful.

Your build feels like you picked individual skills that by themselves look good but don't work as well together. With a skill bar of 8 skills, a good synergy between the skills can be achieved.
Here's a build that I used throughout Prophecies, Factions, and some of Nightfall (until I capped Searing Flames and went to an Echo SF build).

Meteor Shower, Rodgort's Invocation, Fireball, Mark of Rodgort, Aura of Restoration, Fire Attunement, Elemental Attunement, Rez skill of your choice.

Casting Meteor Shower immediately followed by Rodgort's Invocation causes the first meteor to hit at the same time as Rodgort's Invocation so there's a 250 damage hit right there plus burning. Then followed by Mark of Rodgort and then Fireball and Invocation until target is dead.

Looking at the cast times and attack times of the spells to see when they'll hit can give you opportunities for mini spikes such as these. With the dual attunements, you'll never have to worry about energy since the little recharge times between the skills will allow enough time to regeneration the less than 20% energy used per skill.

Francis Crawford

Forge Runner

Join Date: Dec 2005

The post above reminds me of something I forgot to say -- Fireball is individually superior to almost every spell in the build you posted. Good energy efficiency for the damage, decent recharge time.

Vexed

Vexed

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Dec 2006

Mo/

@ Enko,

Good notes in general, but I just have to ask, why on earth would you echo SF - a skill that already recharges in just 2 seconds? Or did I misunderstand what you meant?

@ Vrake,

One thing you are always going to run into in groups is build discrimination. 90% of people look for builds they know - i.e. SS necro, SF ele, Barrage Ranger, etc - and if you aren't running that, they're gonna give you flak simply out of ignorance. There are some good hints here in this thread. I would advise you to take a well-known build and tweak it to your liking.

IMO, if you're going to use the fire line, you need to make the most of its strengths - Burning and AoE damage - while minimizing its drawbacks - low single-target damage and scattering. Aim for clusters of mobs, not single targets, but use skills that deliver a bang in one go like Fireball over skills that pulse damage like Fire Storm.

Until you get Nightfall, you might consider a different elite like Elemental Attunement or Ether Prodigy as has been suggested here. Tighten up your energy management, get rid of your scatter spells (Fire Storm and Lava Font can both go - keep ONE if you need to cause a defensive scatter, i.e. mobs clustering on you or the monk). You'll have a lot more success that way.

Enko

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jun 2006

VA

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexed
@ Enko,

Good notes in general, but I just have to ask, why on earth would you echo SF - a skill that already recharges in just 2 seconds? Or did I misunderstand what you meant? try echoing SF and see what happens. It increases DPS quite a bit. I've tried a SF build without it and its a lot slower to take out targets. In 4 seconds, you've 357 damage to a target and its mob plus whatever burning damage is dealt. Arcane Echo also doesn't take any extra attribute points so you don't even need to worry about that. Here's the build I use:
Arcane Echo, Searing Flames, Glyph of Lesser Energy, Glowing Gaze, Mark of Rodgort, Fire Attunement, Aura of Restoration, [optional]

Fire Attunement and AoR beforehand, Cast GoLE, Arcane Echo, enter agro range, Cast SF, then MoR, then just start hitting both SFs on your skill bar with an occasional GG. If you do run out of energy, cast a GoLE (shouldn't take long to get 5 energy), and either use GG or just keep on SFing. Even though the next two spells don't cost anything, Fire Attunement still kicks in to return energy so SF will return 6 energy and GG will return the full 12. Quite easy to fill up. If you enter battle for some reason while short on energy, echo GG and you'll fill up almost right away.

alarico511

alarico511

Academy Page

Join Date: Jul 2006

Da Dark Dragon

Quote:
@ Enko,

Good notes in general, but I just have to ask, why on earth would you echo SF - a skill that already recharges in just 2 seconds? Or did I misunderstand what you meant? U answer ur own question.

Speedy Lunar

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jan 2007

Holland

Royal Dutch Lions

E/Mo

As every1 before me said: make your energy management work. You've probably got NF by now, I suggest going to Marga Coast, with the quest of Magi Malaquire on if you didn't complete it yet, take signet of capture. Marga coast isn't that far in the game(you can reach it after doing just 4 missions) and Elemental Attunement is really easy to capture there...For the exact location of the boss you can check guildwiki :P
It's best to buy Fire Attunement and keep them both ALWAYS active. I found out that without them I'd be out of energy in no time.
If you don't want to be "the noob ele" in a party, I strongly suggest you ditch flare, lava font and fire storm, perhaps immolate and meteor shower too (Meteor shower because of the things mentioned by Enko). I know ditching flare would seem weird to you, I also used it for spamming purposes until two weeks ago. It's really better to use conjure flame and a max dmg fire wand/staff, also for your (yes, again ) energy management, and in combination with Mark of Rodgort it causes burning.
"Burning" should ring a bell when used next to energy management problems. Yes, I'm talking about the popular Glowing Gaze. You can buy it in Kamadan and in every other city in Nightfall that has a skill trader. It'd make your "builf" (sorry, can't help it )have no more energy problems at all.

Francis Crawford

Forge Runner

Join Date: Dec 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enko
Fire Attunement still kicks in to return energy so SF will return 6 energy 5, actually.

Have you counted how many SF damage hits you do in the first 20 seconds or so of shooting:

A. In an Arcane Echo build?
B. In a Serpent's Quickness build?
C. In a plain-vanilla SF build?

I'm guessing that B will be very competitive with A.

That said, the energy cost of Arcane Echo is indeed largely offset by the need to take attribute points out of Energy Storage and stick them in Wilderness Survival. And the Arcane Echo build also gives you the option of speccing into an attribute such as Earth.

Enko

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jun 2006

VA

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Francis Crawford
5, actually.

Have you counted how many SF damage hits you do in the first 20 seconds or so of shooting:

A. In an Arcane Echo build?
B. In a Serpent's Quickness build?
C. In a plain-vanilla SF build?

I'm guessing that B will be very competitive with A.

That said, the energy cost of Arcane Echo is indeed largely offset by the need to take attribute points out of Energy Storage and stick them in Wilderness Survival. And the Arcane Echo build also gives you the option of speccing into an attribute such as Earth. It returns 6 energy not 5. 15 x 0.3 = 4.5 + 1 =5.5 (game rounds up to 6)

Serpent's Quickness works also, just need to watch your energy more since you have to add points to WS instead of just going straight 16 fire and 13 energy.

bungusmaximus

bungusmaximus

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2006

Guild Of Handicrafted Products [MaSS]

W/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enko
Resurrect: Most teams should have monks that are good enough to keep you alive or rez you up if someone dies. No, no, nooooo, your whole story has good advice in it, but EVERY PVE BUILD HAS A RES!!!!! Monks don't res during battle, they heal, the only time a monk rezzes is after a complete party wipe, he preferably uses rebirth then to get the rest of the team to a safe place. A res signet can be used during a fight because it brings members back at full health, but never use a hard res while fighting. Really, every time people bring no res in PvE god kills a kitten :P

sage tank

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2006

W/Mo

When playing an ele you have to think about if you are doing damage, what kind of damage or just playing defensively

fire magic = aoe
Lightning magic = blind + spike damage to 1 target
water magic = snare + medium protection only to self
earth magic = defense + ward for team protection


Since you are playing a fire ele, your job would be doing aoe damage, which is something you need consider in pve.

Flare is definitely not aoe, it is very bad damage per second and drains alot energy, my advice, just wand if all your skill are recharging

Fire Storm is very small aoe, too small DPS and the worst thing when u get to hard places is that it destroy the AI aggro, when enemy scatters they start attacking back line, which puts lot of pressure

Then the other spell you are using put you into too much risk, ele are not tanks, pointblack aoe spell well not work well, therefore pheonix and lava front well have almost no effect as it will get you killed being charging to front.

As for elite, mindburn is a horrible choice for pve, and here are the reason:
-exhaustion
-no aoe damage
-not that much damage, it is only little better than immolate


When it comes to elite skill choice, most people do either energy management or more damage, personally, if you do fire attunement you should have no problem with energy, I suggest you use aoe damage elite like Searing Flame, Savannah Heat, Double Dragon to clear out the mob fast, etc.

Don't be afraid of recharge time, spam is not always good for you, and sometime that longer recharge helps because it forces you to not cast anything and let you manage your energy better.

Enko

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jun 2006

VA

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by bungusmaximus
No, no, nooooo, your whole story has good advice in it, but EVERY PVE BUILD HAS A RES!!!!! Monks don't res during battle, they heal, the only time a monk rezzes is after a complete party wipe, he preferably uses rebirth then to get the rest of the team to a safe place. A res signet can be used during a fight because it brings members back at full health, but never use a hard res while fighting.
Really, every time people bring no res in PvE god kills a kitten :P this is more true in RA and TA . ..

Sophitia Leafblade

Sophitia Leafblade

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2005

Dragon Slayer Guild [DSG]

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enko
well seeing as how I haven't ran a build with a rez in quite a while and still doing fine . ..

anyways, you'll only need a rez on a team that you're unsure of. Any PUGs I'm on, yes I'll bring a rez since I don't know how good they are. With my team of heroes and henchies that I used throughout NF, I haven't needed one for the most part. If you don't die and kill everything fast enough that your team doesn't die, why waste a space on a rez? Even with NF, none of my heroes use a rez except for the monks. Sure there's times that having a rez would've been useful but for me, 90% of the time, it was just a wasted slot.

And yes, monks shouldn't rez in battle since they should be keeping everyone else alive. That's what the henchies rez sigs are for . ..

this is more true in RA and TA . .. Ah the amount of times ive seen teams get into trouble and ive been the only surviving member, without res its simple: its mission over,all that time wasted. A res especially a Hard Res where possible, is a critical skill. Its a form of Team work since u are looking out for the team which in turn benefits you. Yes its not usful 100% of the time, but it increases your sucess rate considerably. However then again no skills are useful 100% of the time. Eviscerate is only useful if u have the adrenaline for it. Savage shot is only useful when there using a skill, mending is only useful when you have lost health.

Signets are ok for non Monk, Rit or Paragon chars or for fast paced missions with numerious bosses eg. Thirsty River or for PvP eg. RA, But atleast 1 non monk char should carry a hard res in PvE to help should a party get close to wiped out, even if they die, they can be resed 1st to then res all the others, else the whole teams res signets get used to restore the team. and therefore u have little res ability from that point on.

Enko

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jun 2006

VA

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophitia Leafblade
Ah the amount of times ive seen teams get into trouble and ive been the only surviving member, without res its simple: its mission over,all that time wasted. A res especially a Hard Res where possible, is a critical skill. Its a form of Team work since u are looking out for the team which in turn benefits you. Yes its not usful 100% of the time, but it increases your sucess rate considerably. However then again no skills are useful 100% of the time. Eviscerate is only useful if u have the adrenaline for it. Savage shot is only useful when there using a skill, mending is only useful when you have lost health. Might want to read my post again. I said with any PUG in which I didn't know how good the team was, I bring a rez. For the most part, I use heroes/henchies and I can count the times I needed a rez in NF so far on one hand.

And on the contrary, every skill on my skill bar is useful at all times. If I'm not using a skill enough, I look for a replacement that will add some benefit. The last time I can think of that I had a skill that wasn't used was probably back when I had first started Prophecies and I didn't have enough skills to make a good, efficient build.

Speedy Lunar

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jan 2007

Holland

Royal Dutch Lions

E/Mo

It seems like SF and GG will be nerfed soon. Consider using dual attunement...

lightblade

lightblade

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

The Etereal Guard

Me/Mo

1. No energy management; Not even Fire Attunement
2. Very little skills that make enemy "on fire". Fire spells, unlike air spells, don't have armor penetration. The degen from "on fire" condition is the only mean for fire spell to do armor ignoring damage. It is very important later on in the game.
3. Flare is just a terrorible terrorible spell for Ele primary. Because there are better ones.
4. You have 2 point blank area of effect (PBAoE) spells. While generally these spells do more damage per energy, they're unwelcomed by other player because it put yourself and your team in danger.
5. Ressurrection is one of the worst res spell out there. There are way better ones than these. Faction have chant, Nightfall have renew life, and Prophacies have Restore Life. Lastly, Rebirth is a core skill. These are all better than Resurrection.

LightningHell

LightningHell

(????????????)???

Join Date: Aug 2005

Hong Kong

Guildless

Mo/

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