Suggested Buffs/nerfs

Lets see what you guys think And hey, as an added tread, I'll actually give a reason for why I believe in each buff/nerf.

Repliers Suggestions: (To be added)

My suggestions:

Penetrating Blow/shot etc

0 added damage, but 20...30..50% armor pen instead. Reason. Power attack/shot simply outdamage in all cases because the + damage is armor ignoring. This would add a nice quirk to the skill.

Magehunter's Smash

Make unblockable/evadeable when hits enchanted foe as well. Reason:You get more knockdowns/better knockdowns with devastating + heavy/hammer bash or backbreaker and these aren't conditional!

Battle rage

Shouts do not cause rage to end Reason: How does shouting stop a rage, it increases it!

Flourish

Tactics based. Reason: Makes more sense/usable by other classes. I have rarely.. actually never seen a warrior use flourish.

Primal Rage

Disable all non attack skills instead of all skills. Reason: This being a stance is very crippling to its effectiveness. If you're gonna move like a tortoise, at least be one mother(*^%ing strong tortoise

Frenzied defense <----APPLIED by anet

Lasts 8 seconds. Reason: the negative already sucks, making it 5 energy per 5 seconds is a bit overkill

Rampage as One <---- NERFED by anet in a different way

Lower to 25% attack speed. Reason: Honestly, this skill will still be overused with a nerf, its insane.

Strike as One

Buff damage 3-4 points. Reason:Compare it to rampage as one. You'll then laugh your ass off

Archer's Signet:

Change to marksmanship. Reason:So.. its only good at high expertise.. but you dont need it at high expertise...

Incendiary arrows:<---Increased duration APPLIED by anet

Lasts 12 seconds, 12 second recharge. Reason:Nobody's gonna wait 2 second activation with aftercast to fire off 3 shots that interrupt, and then sit there with no elitefor 16 seconds.

Quicksand:

2 energy loss instead of one. Reason: Never used. Any for with emanagement prolly won't even notice it.

Withdraw Hexes.

Changed from adjacent to in the area. Reason:This skill sucks, 'nuff said.

Healer's Covenant

Changed from -energy to -% energy, or -1..3..4. This skill only sees action in heroes who have no concept of overhaling a target (Yay heal other when they're at 99% health.. brilliant). This elite at the moment is only efficient with 5 energy spells, and even then its STILL barely more efficient than healer's boon.

Mending:

1..4..5 regen. Reason: mending refrain.

Bals Pendulum <---BUFFED by anet. (I think it needs another buff tho lol)

No duration limit. Reason:This is elite? Lmao

Strength of honor

1..8 to 2..12. Reason:Now its only slightly worse than conjure lightning, etc

Cultist's Fervor:

Sac 30...18% changed to 25...14% and works on touch skills. Reason:18% health is a lot. Lose 80 health per spell? Yuck. Doesn't work on vamp touch? o.O

Ravenous Gaze:

50% to 70%. Reason: Too unreliable if your party has monks.

Spoil Victor <---NERFED by anet. Different way tho

Nerf to 2 second cast. Reason:An astounding necromancer hex doesn't need 1 second cast.

Signet of suffering:

No max damage. Sig of mystic wrath needs it because there are many enchants that last a long time and are cheap. Such is not the same with hexes.

Wither:<---APPLIED by anet

Doesn't end if energy drops to 0. Reason:Weapon switching.

Glimmering mark:

Change Adjacent to nearby. Reason: Compare to blinding surge

Burning speed:

Changed to stance, change to 5 energy cause attunes wont work, and add a recharge. Reason: Right now.. its more like burning aftercast.


Mind blast: <---

1..7 energy to 1..10 energy. Reason: Compare to Glowing Gaze

Maelstrom:

Adjacent to nearby. Reason:Maelstrom not toilet flush.

Water Trident:<---APPLIED by anet

Double movement speed, lower arc. Reason:Have you seen this hit a moving foe at its max range?? anyone?

Glyph of conc:

Can't be interrupted. Reason: INterrupters just interrupt this.

Assassin's Promise:

Lower recharge to 15. Reason: You're screwed if it's removed. Totally and completely screwed.

Wastrel's Collapse:

5 seconds to 3. Reason: its elite.

Protective was Kaolai:<---BUFFED by anet in a different way

Adds 20 armor as well. Reason: See generous was tsungrai

Vocal was sogolon:

Buff to ...66% longer. Reason:This skill only works for other professions. So it doesn't get very high without a sup rune.

Attuned was Songkai:

Recharge from 45 to 15. Reason: Again, totally and completely utterly screwed with one interrupt.

Soul twisting:

Can be used on Ranger spirits as well (Note:No it doesn't already do this, you can destroy ranger spirits but you cannot use soul twisting's power on ranger spirits). Reason:Why not? Atm ritual lord is all that gets used.

Defensive anthem:

Add 20 armor as well. Reason: Compare to non-elite aegis.

Song of purification:

Change to 1...6 skills. Reason: The 2 cast kills it.

Vow of strength:

0 Cast, changed to skill. Reason: It sucks already, do we really need to stop chasing a kiting enemy to cats it every time it gets stripped?


---------------------------

Part two. New section editted in. These are the skills that are debateable whether or not they need a change. The ones above absolutely need some change, if not the change I suggested.

Mokele smash:

Recharge reduced to 8. Reason: See enraging charge. (Different attribute I know.. but 3 strength is barely a requirement)

Warrior's Cunning:

Recharge reduced to 30. Reason:10 energy is already a very hefty price to pay for a warrior.

Skull Crack:

Dazes even if it doesn't interrupt. Reason: Very very very hard to do a touch interrupt on a kiting opponent.

Price of Pride:

Change from next time, to every time, lower duration. Reason: This skill is far outclassed by everything for two reasons. One, most e-denial is non-conditional or and causes damage or other loss. Two, Chances are, if they just used an elite, their energy will be close to 0 anyways

Signet of Illusions:

Cast time reduced to 1/4. Reason:The fact that its elite seriously cuts down on the uses for this skil,l having to sit 3 seconds (2+aftercast) before using it is a little harsh.

Gust:

Recharge reduced to 5 seconds. Reason:Anyone would choose gale, a non-elite, over this, the exhuastion is worth it to spam two or three times if needed.

Lightning Hammer:

Recharge reduced to 5. Reason:10 energy to make lightning orb unevadeable is enough. At 25energy, these is outclassed by most fire spells which have AoE even!

Ether prism:

Raise maximum to 75. The nerf just completely killed this. You now need e-magement (sig of less energy/energizing wind) to use an e-management ELITE? I think they not only forgot this spell doesn't cost 0 energy, but they also forgot the 2 cast makes it easy to interrupt

Dark Apostacy:

Remove energy loss. Reason: Compared to grenths dervish.. yeah. A removable hex that recharges 15 seconds, is elite, 2 second cast, 10 energy, and has a condition and energy loss. Too many negatives compared to "can be used only 80 seconds per 120"

Feigned neutrality:

Reduce armor to 60. Reason:Compare to shadow refuge. Not as spammable.. but ddddddddddamn.

"Can't touch this!"

Change to next 1..4 to complete immunity, make duration the variable. Reason: A)Testing has shown that a person can, say, use sig of midnight 5 times with NO aftercast (i.e. in less than a second), and resume whatever touch skills he wanted. B) Why not total immunity, its such a narrow usage, only yourself and only touch skills (not common)

Aggressive refrain:

Reduce attack speed to 15%. Reason: Any paragon with a simple 5 leadership or so gains a permanent attack speed of +25%. When you consider frenzies +33% implies DOUBLE DAMAGE to oneself... yeah..

"The Power is yours!"

Increase energy gain to 1....12..14. Reason:Using this completely dumps your energy. Why you'd use this over aria of zeal or zealous anthem is beyond me. One might argue that sure you can use this with entirely adrenaline skills.. but no you can't because this is motivation based so your spear would do crap for damage and your adrenaline skills would be terrible, and you'd have no elite.

Leader's Zeal:

Change to earshot. Reason:Worthless.

Mystic regen:<----APPLIED by anet

Change the first "break point" from 3 to 6. Reason: People use this with effectively 0 attribute use, since you can split your attributes 12, 12, 3 and get the full use.

Zealous Vow:

Change to skill, remove cast time. Reason: All these 1/4 cast removable spells that effect casting/attacking with short duration are more or less useless due to aftercast and removability. Why anet made the only one of these, rampage as one, ridiculously overwpowered ALREADY, is beyond me.

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Comments by repliers condensed:

Terra xin

Attuned was songkai:This change would be overpowering when compared to ele attune
Protective was kaoleiisagrees, see mighty was vorizun.
Ass. Promise:Semi-agrees when compared to effects of reaper's
glyph conc.:You can predict ranger interrupts.
Mind blast:disagrees with glowing gaze comparison
Burning speed:Eles aren't supposed to have stances
Witherisagrees, duration would be terrible.
Signet of suffering:Argues duration of hexes is longer than enchantments and enchants more spammable.
Strength of honor:Says the analogy is ineffective as the skill is maintained
Quicksand:Argues that it wont be used if buffed because the ally would be hurt as well.

Dgb

rebutts terra xin on:
Ravenous Gaze:Says he monks and saying for someone to tell a monk to not heal them is "moronic"
Bals Pend:Wholeheartedly agrees

I would rather this job be left to the anet staff, because regardless of whether or not other people think that particular nerfs are good or not, they have a greater insight into the game than anyone else here.

Alright. Bottom to top:

And you are completely and utterly and totally overpowered with an unremovable energy management skill for the duration that this skill is in effect. This already outclasses Elemental Attunement (where you get the energy saving at the beginning and not the end - save from interrupts). Don't make the Elementalist cry.

I disagree. Reason: See, Mighty Was Vorizun.

So will the effects of many other hexes. But... when you comare it to Reaper's Mark, then your point is more clear.

Well... yeah, that's supposed to be the weakness (only weakness) of the Glyph. It has a recharge of 10, and you can easily predict a Ranger's interrupts.

Glowing Gaze also has a 5 sec recharge. The energy gain from Mind Blast is not only easier to meet, but you can spam it more frequently. Mind Blast already deals more damage anyway.

Elementalists don't have stances, they have glyphs. The no recharge makes up for the effectiveness of this skill. Its good for Dervishes^^.

This skill has a 29... I repeat, a 29 second duration at rank 12. You're kidding right? If you buff this so that it doesn't end... no... just no. Compare this skill to Panic (ends sooner btw), which has a serious drawback, and then compare it to Ether Lord (also ends sooner), which also has a serious drawback, then look at Wither again, and try to look for the drawback if you took out that condition you mentioned above.

Um...? Just to list a few hexes

Fainthartedness
Shadow of Fear
Parasitic Bond
Price of Failure
Malaise
Mark of Pain...

Now these skills range from 20-30 seconds. Compared to enchantments:

Reversal of Fortune
Protective Spirit
Aegis
Air of Enchantment
Guardian
Shield of Absorbtion...

All have a 5-20 second duration... and both the hexes and enchtantments are equally spammable.

This skill is powerful when the requirements are met. And it takes a simple matter of "dont heal me unless I ask" to rectify the monk problem you may have.

Its a Maintained enchantment and the damage increase is untyped. Any questions?

Probrably? So its easy to say that based on what you've said... you've never used this yourself? This works on both allies and foes. Increasing this to two energy is bad news for both sides.

Right that's me.

I'm a monk. My job is to keep you alive. I'm going to ignore any such advice - if you're dying, I'm not waiting for your bloody permission to heal you, you're getting what's needed to keep you alive. If you're below 50% you're definately getting healing, no matter what you say.

Do you even play Guild Wars? "dont heal me unless I ask" is possibly the most moronic thing I've ever seen on a Guild Wars forum and there has been a lot. The skill is garbage because the condition is way too dangerous to even think about wanting to enter.

[skill]Illusion of Weakness[/skill][skill]Faithful Intervention[/skill]

O RLY?

Both are enchantments, not maintainable, that excluding outside events (same as BP), do not end.

If you honestly think that BP is decent in it's current state, you need your head checked.

Oh that's right... *cough* (edit post).

Really, you don't use BP? FIne. More for me.

I do see your point and I normaly do exactly the same, but I just thaught I'd point out: Blood builds can be very self sufficient. With this skill, and others, they can safely let their health drop below 50% and then heal themselfs back up to almost full health while also dealing out a lot of damage.

I've had people tell me not to bother healing them. All I do is keep a closer eye on their bars and watch for habits. The few that have said that have taken care of themselves just fine, so all I had to do was watch for when their health stayed too low for too long(i.e. spike or something they were having trouble countering).

To op: A lot of the skills you're suggesting changing are because they are somehow 'weaker' than other skills. But if you overpower these skills, than you have the same problem with other skills. Then you have to buff those, and you've got a never ending cycle. Some skills will be more useful than others, and some probably do need tweaks. But I don't believe any of these skills will need recharge times dropped by 30 seconds, etc. Thats just a bit drastic.

But that's just my 2 cents

Hate to burst your bubble, but no they dont.

And if they do, which i would find suprising, they aint gonna do anything about it on their own, unless we make hundred of threads like these. Then, only then, they might, just might realize how horrible skill balance is at this moment.

um ya they do, they can track usage of skills in the game and what percentage of skills are used and how often. Just because 2 or mabey even 20 people say a skill is overused or underused, its just a opinion unless you have facts and figures. I am very sure that anet staff has a tracker to find out what skills get used and for how often, and then adjust accordingly.

lol no one else is gonna point out that they want a mending buff??

heya looked at the responses. Yeah when I say prolly on quicksand no I haven't used the skill. Why? I've heard nobody, rly nobody uses it. The complaint is it's not effective.

As far as anet knowing well enough what skills need buffs/nerfs... I'm sorry but that rly is a joke. There are many skills I would never touch, and neither would anyone else of any decent skill level. Mending, incendiary arrows, or bals pendulum in pvp? Lmao. Yes they can track how many times a skill is used. So you're saying mending, used by 400000 paladin noobs is the ultimate skill?

As far as quicksand hurting both sides with 2 energy, that's entirely the point of spirits. You use them to your advantage by knowing they will be on the battlefield. Strong negative effects are powerful if you prepare for them.

Terra's point on strength of honor.. what does that have to do with it? o.O So you change your crappy 20/20 sundering to crappy elemental or vice verse.

As for hexes being spammable and cheap, no they aren't. enchants go to as low as 1/4 cast and top at 2 or so. Hexes range from 1 to 3. Also hexes are removed very easily. No good pvp build, and I mean none, goes without either blessed light, divert hexes or expel hexes.

As for your comment on wither.. yeah you're right. If my suggestion were implemented, its duration would have to be almost halved or its recharge doubled.

The assasin promise comment is easily dismissed, name a hex with 45 recharge.

As for glowing gaze, no the requirement is freakin easy to be met, its called searing flames. And since thats the only elite fire eles rly run...

Glyph of conc. Easily prepare for interrupts? Thats a joke right? -.- interrupter's stay on their target for the most part.

bump! added some more stuff

I read about half of these and concluded that these are personal observations about whether or not these skills are balanced and not very solid.

I can agree that there are alot of skills which are not strong enough to compete with better skills, in any situation, so they should be improved, and I also agree that some skills are a bit powerful, though it is better to improve all the unacceptable skills than the one that is enjoyable 90% of the time.

But most of these observations are misguided or wrong, and don't take into account the entirety of the class or combination of skills which enhance eachother to be balanced.

I'm not going to go through all of these, but I will give an example. Mending, you think it should be stronger because mending refrain can do the same in a different way. But you make the assumption that Mending deserves to be stronger because of its inclusive energy cost. Wile Mending Refrain requires close proximity, constant upkeep, and a different class to opperate. There is no injustice in having a better regeneration alternative on another class, naturally, most classes can't even heal others, and Monk has the best of most facets, but Paragon has an advantage in regeneration maitenance. This isn't any more broken than not having ally healing spells at all on an Assassin, Paragon is given an advantage to secure some value the same way Ritualist can provide unique effects which outmatch Monks in certain realms of performance.

Balance is not equality of each part, it is equality of the whole. 4+6=10 and 3+7=10 as well. By assuming that simular parts on different classes should all be equal, your essentially forcing them to be the same, obviously the intention of a different profession is to be unique, thus the parts which make it whole are fitted together differently, to become an balanced yet unique whole, not the same thing.

Without appreciation for the costs and difficulties involved with other classes, you cannot make a solid analysis of skill balance, there are definetly improvements to be made, but they certainly shouldn't be done by you.

To be quite honest, I am sure Anet staff does have greater insight into the combination of abilities and the overall balance of the game, they have access to testing and facilitation far beyond players and spend a great deal more time and man power setting it. That doesn't mean that they get everything "right", because enjoyment is the number one factor, and enjoyment is determined by the consumer, not the producer, but that doesn't mean that Anet doesn't know what they are doing. Often times when you find that something is totally misunderstood, it is often because your overlooking significant factors. The greatest imput we can offer to the developers is to point out which skills are simply too inadequit to practice, and which skills are not enjoyable, because no matter how they justify the balance of the game, they cannot tell us whether the skill is good enough to use, if it isn't good enough, it woln't be used, and the game loses variety.

I find it interesting that the only skill you mentioned needs to be buffed badly. Mending refrain = free full party 4 health regen. Mending = full party 4health regen with -8 energy regen. or -2 energy regen with a a skill blessed signet taking away a skill slot.

So if thats all you have to say, I can just ignore that post

Ever try putting Vocal Minority on the Paragon (and then covering it with 3 other hexes)? It prevents the one thing that makes Mending Refrain work. Without shouts, the paragon has to waste a whole lot of energy to re-apply it.

now that you mention it, what if someone uses an anti-sig interrupt on blessed sig? YOu can wipe hexes, you cant wipe something that disables sigs for x time.

Oh and did I mention you can remove mending but you cannot remove meding refrain?

Who the hell is dumb enough to run an echo paragon without divert hexes in their build?

Just to point out, this spell was buffed quite largely, I believe when Nighfall came out. That is proof that they felt that it was underpowered. Also, as many people have said before, how many pvp groups are dumb enough to not bring a hex remover. It doesn't even do anything if the person uses skills that target themself.

I'm not going to agree or disagree with any of those proposed skill changes, I just wanted to say that you can't use realism and logic as an argument. Playability, balance and game mechanics are the main factors, not whether it makes sense for Battle Rage to end when you use a shout (just an example).

Yes I know that, but it is very silly for a rage to end just from shouting. They did use "realism/logic" when making that skill of course. Right now, the rage is extremely limiting.

bump!blabla12letterlimit

Servant of Kali is right. Only a few Anet employee's really know how the game works with regards to skill balancing.

Strength of Honor: skill is fine.

Quicksand (spirit and map effect): I'd like to see this not effect on auto attacks. It's just too brutal for warriors.

Attuned was Sonkai: seems fine to me.

Signet of Illussion: Hard one to look at, as it lets you do alot. I'd say maybe 3/4 second cast. The objective here is to make it take time to use, but not be so susceptible to interupt.

Warriors Cunning: That kind of buff would really make the skill too strong IMO. A warrior that can't be blocked/evaded is scary considering the state of spike in the game. Make that skill too usable and it will unbalance the rest of the game alot.

Well I agree with you quicksand at 2 energy would be brutal for warriors, it would have to then be changed to "2 energy while using non-attack skills, and 1 energy while attacking"

buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuump

bUbuBuBububbubum,p!

Why are you begging for this thread to be locked? People will reply when they so desire. Not like there aren't already dozens of skill balance threads out there already.

can you guys (anet) please nerf Dwarven Battle Stance?

actually, Im joking- just wanted to blurt out a random skill that nobody seems to use (personally, its one of my favorites- right up there with iW)

Its funny- water trident- anyone else remember the beta-test "abominable snowman" build? I think that was the first build I ever won an RA match with... almost 2 years ago lol...


...OK but seriously- am I really the only person who actually uses Dwarven Battle Stance? lol

Cause I felt like it? Every other skill balance thread ends up in 4000 people saying NERF SEARING FLAMEs, with 4000 othe rpeople saying DONT YOU NOOOOOOOOOB!

It's actually better, because SoH and CL work differently. CL adds in another damage source, therefore Shield of Aborpsion and Shielding Hand will reduce damage from each of the source. SoH adds to base damage, it count as one source of damage.

wow.. check out the new skills updates about water trident,frenzied defence, and wither. Anet totally accepted my comments directly! I feel so loved now.

I'm going to bump this because I realised that it wasn't just water trident and wither that were directly applied almost verbatim, it was quite a few. I'm going to edit this thread regularly to show general comments about the buffs/nerfs by each skill and put up suggestions from other people.

Are you saying to buff Mending?

you bet see it used by an experience player? ever?

Note:more to the point.. do yuo think this will be used by an experienced player after the buff? ever?

No, it won't, so why encourage people to use it at all...

As far as the comparison between mending refrain and mending....one can be applied by a monk very quickly to a party if he's using blessed sig. A paragon on the other hand would take a good long while to apply it to 8 people. Granted, it's essentially free for the remainder of the match, PROVIDED everyone stays in earshot range. Those limitations are what's supposed to make it balanced, or at least comparable to mending.

well.. if you use a rating of skills from 1 to 5 such that...

1. every experienced gvg/hoh team has this skill (none, maybe LoD and holy veil)

2. most experienced gvg/hoh teams have this skill (RC, Diversion, infuse health, etc)

3. many experienced gvg/hoh teams have this skill (Fear me, Searing flames, Water trident, etc)

4. few experience gvg/hoh teams... ("they're on fire!", mending refrain etc)

5. No experienced gvg/hoh teams.. (mending, primal rage, and 40% of all skills)


... then I'm sure that anet wants no skill in the 1 or 5 area. buffs and nerfs change this. Mending is at 5.