Allow 7 heroes instead of 3

I am bored out of my mind at not playing with REAL people in a ONLINE MULTIPLAYER game.

I'm so happy that my guildies actually play the game with me!

/nosigned

It's annoying and a pain to try and get a group for a mission these days. But it is still possible. 7 Hero's would make this idea of grouping null and void.

/notsigned

I don't believe there should have to be a social aspect the game, a lot of games aren't multiplayer games and I know when I bought Guild Wars there were two things: Option to play by yourself (yes this was actually advertised) and a game based on player skill, not time spent grinding. Although we've gotten away from that in some aspects, I'd still like to see 7 heroes simply because if someone wants to do it they should be able to.

If you believe that the game should be played socially, then go ahead and play it that way, and stop forcing your morality upon others. To each his own, jackass.

Right, because people that don't want to play with you, but are forced to play with you, are going to be great teammates. I don't think you've completely thought through your cunning plan.

This game can be played single player. To many of us, that's part of its appeal. You like to play it with other people. That's fine too. I guarantee that your multiplayer experience will be better with people that want to play multiplayer than it will with people that are playing with you because henchies are dumb as rocks and you're their means of last resort to finishing something.

I can respect the balance arguments against this, but the "no one will group with me" crybabies should go find a game where people have no choice but to play with them and be happy.

/signed

Even before Heroes were introduced it was already fairly hard to make a group for something that is not related to quick money gain or quick storyline play.

Party Search only works for the current outpost you're within, so it's pretty useless for me and a lot of others who are interested in playing in more than one outpost, as long as there is a group.

I don't hate playing with people, I hate the time I have to waste in order to find a group, to find myself alone again because the group may have died quicker than the form time.

I like WoW's, Dungeon Runner's, CoH/CoV's, DDO's and many other games resources for party formation, as they won't require you to be standing idle waiting for the group to be formed as in staying on the town idle.

You people are making it sound like the game is impossible to do with henchies. To be honest a lot of the quests and missions I've done with 3 heros and 4 henchmen. It's not hard. And who takes Mehnlo anyways? Dunkoro + protector henchie = no problem. With 7 henchies could you imagine ToA? People would just go into FoW by themselves with heros all day. And it would be completely possible. Stop acting like you can't play the way it is. You still have the option to play by yourself and it's not a huge hinderence or anything.

Don't tell me about being a "Group" crybaby.

I went through Prophecies, Factions, and Nightfall almost 3/4 of the way with henchies (And only 1 misson in Elona I had to do was with guildies).
About 4-6 missons so far, I've only done it with people, usually my guildies because I ask them nicely. Hey, I can beat the game if I want to, but don't call me a "Group" crybaby, it just gets VERY old and repetative when you need to rely on AI to back you up.

THat's all I'm saying, honestly.

Yes, its fun the first time you go through it.
The next 3 times you go through it with pure AI just makes it dull.

Still /notsigned

Edit: Wouldn't the game be pretty easy if you relied on the heros? I mean, we already have 2 necromancers that take up the MM's job without any trouble, we have a pertty good paragon that can pretty much perform alot of builds. I'm just saying, the game gets easier and easier as we rely on AI.

To me that's the far more compelling argument. Some kind of abbreviated henchmen skill control (and no weapon/rune customization for them) might be better. Regardless, the balance discussion in this thread has swayed me to alter my first post in this thread.

Heroes are the end of any hope for PvE, and have hurt PvP more than many expected.

By introducing heroes, all PvE, with exception of elite areas is simply too trivial. Of course, it can't be made harder, more challenging, or more diverse, since heroes are too stupid to do anything beyond spamming their skills. So any kind of positioning, splitting the teams, or any kind of advanced concept beyond echo nuking is simply too much for them.

As such, they have sealed the faith of future. Look at DoA.

GW chapter 4 might as well release as single player, with chat room, or better yet, by integrating one of useful IM solutions, MSN, x-fire or something like that.

But as of NF release, there simply is no reason to group anymore, there's no benefit to it, and will, for most part, only hurt you. The PvE content is by far too easy to play with other players who would be so inclined, negating even the need for guilds.

What CH. 4 will do for that remains to be seen, but I wouldn't keep my hopes up. By then, most players will have their heroes fully equipped, access to all the useful skills, and group templates figured out.

These builds will of course not be based on good practices, but on what heroes can use. And this set is in complete opposite of some of the best practices.

This isn't really the question of whether heroes are next best thing after sliced bread - they aren't - but since content is and will be scaled for them, that's the future.

HA was for most part ruined, HvH is a complete joke, and heroes are seeing a lot of action even in the last stand for PvP - the GvG.

While at first sight this may seem like a minor issue, the population has drastically changed. And Ch. 4 generation will be much different. Existing players with no multiplayer experience whatsoever ("What does LFG mean?" - some guy in Realm of Torrent last week), they will be completely unfamiliar with even the most basic build concepts, and they will dictate the future content - they are the future market.

But GW is at this point only barely holding on the bring of being multi-player. And with no upcoming incentive in that direction, adding 7 heroes might as well be the right way to go about it. There really is no more reason to play with others - if for one reason only - heroes don't lag.

GW has taken a turn, and you can expect to see a complete turn for the NPC gameplay in the future - and it will strongly affect the Ch. 4 content.

I had to shovel through a lot of B.S. when reading through this thread. It seems to me that a good number of people feel that Heroes ruined PUGs. Wrong. Guilds ruined PUGs. Why don't we just remove the guild system, and the friends list while we are at it, thus forcing everyone to PUG. Would that satisfy you? Face it: why would I want to PUG if I already have a good friend base and a large guild? I remember the days past of PUGing; failing simple missions 15 times in a row because I joined a group of people that all thought they had the answer.

So I do missions/quests with guildies. Each person can change his or her skills to suit the overall team. If I decide to play alone, why do I loose this option of group customization?

Amen.

/signed

/signed

iv been stuck on nundu bay for a week with the amazingly awful PUGs

/signed

why the heck not. i think part of GW's charm is in the fact that you can play it all by yourself and not be at a major disadvantage (in most cases), unlike games like WoW which require you to be in a massive guild to even stand a chance at accessing the advanced parts of the game.

i have an odd schedule which leaves me playing mostly in the very late hours of the night, when getting a PUG is very hard and getting a good PUG is damn near impossible. if i can't take my guildies/alliance with me, i just take heroes/hench. very rarely do i bother with PUGs anymore, simply because they can be frustrating and waste my time.

so that's my preference. however, i can't tell you how many times i've muttered the words "%#!@& noob henchmen!" as the monk hench spends more time wanding the baddies than healing the party. hench can get the job done, but heroes are infinitely better. hench are a thing of the past with the release of nightfall, and imo, we should be allowed to fill our party with heroes if we so desire for PvE.

won't happen, but here's to hoping

the kneejerk reaction to change to 6v6 hurt HA more than anything and to their credit, they did place a limit on the number of heroes.

HvH has potential to be improved, currently in a mess because of '/roll'ers and map issues

as for GvG? i don't see heroes ever becoming a problem for high-end GvG unless the AI is improved very significantly and able to think on the fly (ie. programmed to have responses to every single situation, impossible at this time). if newbie guilds want to test the waters with heroes, it's not a problem. or if guilds, in the off-season want to have fun with heroes, not a problem either.

if you were to say, heroes are the death of the PUG rather than death of PvE, you might be accurate.
but then you'd have to place the blame where it belongs, on the incompetence of the average GW player.

7 heroes for a PvE party, why not? it'd significantly improve my PvE experience and i'd spend less time re-doing quests and missions.

so then they'd have to come up with their own builds to succeed instead of replicating builds?

I'm going to really have to stop replying and giving my two cents in some of these posts. There really is no point when no one reads what you've said, and the ones that do ignore what you're reading because they automatically take offence to it

Person A: I like apples
Person B: I like oranges, apples are nice once in a while
Person A: *Shoots person B*

Kai Nui, you are such a person. This is the second suggestion in a matter of days you've started where when someone disagrees with you you insult them. You have to learn to take criticism better

The game the way it is now, and the way it was before Heroes were added, does not force anyone to play socially with real people in thier party (in PvE). The only, and I mean the ONLY, real arguement that could be made about not wanting to use the Henchmen, is that they are limited in thier skill sets and as a result you are limited in your party formation to that extent.

If they increase the liimt on how many heroes (of their own) a player can have in thier party, then so be it. People will use it, as I will to. Why have a henchman in the group that you can not customize when you can put a customized hero in it's place.

But because you all (aside from a few) are arguing that they should increase the limit because playing in pugs is slow and annoying at times... it's just not convincing enough and is not needed for the simple fact that you have the henchmen to use.

This should be implemented into the game. I know everyone says it'll make pve too simple and easy. But it's not like you can micromanage each hero. Also, it'll stop all the leavers and what not from making you have to re-do an entire mission because they rage quit.

In my own opinion, it can't hurt anything and would just improve every thing. It can't hurt pugs any because the people who don't want to pug won't. It won't hurt the people who do want to use it because they still can't micromanage every single hero and skill.

Basically, theres no reason to not have it in the game and every reason to allow atleast more heroes, not even saying allow 7. But it would be nice to have more then 3.

/signed

I enjoy decking out every single one of my heroes for every character. There's no reason why we shouldn't be able to use all our heroes to fill a party. The majority of towns are dead anyways.

Every chapter they'll up the Hero limit, wanna bet? It's what I'd do to guarantee more sales.

This statement holds more truth than you'd get credit for.

Is it hard to play with other players in PUGs? No. Not at all. It just takes the most basic social skills.
*looks at this thread*

What about DoA? Where is the good build? Ah - the holy trinity works.

No, players will never adapt. And with no knowledge sharing and community participation, they'll demand in a hissy fit for content to be nerfed. Nobody with exception of perhaps dozens of players asked about strategies for DoA - they asked for nerf, nothing more, nothing less.

Funny fact: Why is almost every 3rd post in this thread calling someone a jerk, an idiot or something similar? Why all the insults in an idea suggestion thread? Why the explosive temper?

Anet will give players what they want. They need to. Pandora's box is open. And it doesn't contain multiplayer content.

Ah sorry then i assumed you're complaining about people who said yes but didnt clarify.
If lyra_song said just "no" there's really no need for me to type the same reply to everyone.

Then how come you're above statement is WRONG? Obviously there is right and wrong. Just because something is forum and open to discussion doesnt mean it's all always 100% oppinion.

Until you beat my arguments in a sane way, you're WRONG.

If im right, and they disagree, yes they are automatically wrong. Who says otherwise has problems with logic

And if im not right (happens), but someone didnt argument his/her point of view, then there's not much contribution to the discussion is it.

The point is for everyone to type /signed or not type anything at all. So ANet sees the thread and makes the change.

Or what, you thought im into democracy? Not really..

Well, here's news: If Zingeri took 5min to think his points of view, we would not have silly posts with silly "arguments".

Yes please do, it would make my posting much eaiser.

Rules for Engagement by Kali:
1) Posts have to be argumented
2) Posts have to be logically flawless
3) Posts have to pass reality check
4) Poster has to reread his posts, and must not be on drugs while posting
5) Posts cannot repeat like a parrot the previous statements of the poster, without counter-argumenting what the other guy said. Posts cannot repeat the non-argumented points of view which others wrote.

There. This is needed for a minimum of debate. Unfortunately the amount of people who typed /notsigned and who meet these requirements is 1, maximally, in this thread.

And, have you like completely missed the fact that people who typed /signed appear to be more mature and type more logically reasonable posts than those who typed /notsigned and their posts come down to arguments such as "no one wants to play with me, booohoo" and "dad, force them to play with me".

*agrees*

Dude, do you understand that im a PvPer more than PvEr, and that we PvPers DONT WANT TO have any henchies or heroes in PvP. It's PvErs who want henchies n heroes in PvP!!

PvE is different, you play against AI, not against other people. Therefore you can choose to play with heroes, or with other people. Simple.

Sorry but, using the same logic, you're saying people should be forced to PvP, and if they dont PvP they should lose something per week they dont PvP at all. How bout that, ha? How bout we PvPers FORCE PvErs to PvP? Would you like that?

Dont tell me how to play the game. Im not telling YOU how to play the game.

wow no way! PvE has been trivial to me for ages already, have you completely missed the point that thousands upon thousands do PvE with a coke in one hand and sandwitch in another? I did Nightfall in what, 3-4 days since release and finished it, i didnt even play whole day ofc. I was passing most missions on the first attempt, didnt even know what to expect there.

So, i have a newsflash for you, PvE is piece of cake for me, YET i still play it. Amazing isnt it?

Tic-tac-toe is easy and people STILL play it. Geez.

Welcome to 21st century. There was no reason to group before either, zillion of players didnt, in case you didnt notice. All missions can he henched, to my knowledge. At least all Prophecy missions could (afaik) and STILL people played it. How do you explain that?

There was never a benefit for grouping; for me, it always meant that mission might fail, that there might be griefers in the team etc. But i still PUG. And tons of other people do as well.

Reality check says hi.

Because there's a name for a person who says stuff which:
a) doesnt pass reality check and is based on urban myths
b) is logically flawed
c) has not been argumented properly, and PROs and CONs have not been weighted
d) defies common sense
e) is selfish, and completely ignores that there are other human beings with their own free will (hint: do i force people not to farm, just because i dont like it, or, do i force people to pvp just because i like it?)

/signed.

PS - For the people who don't like to have 7 heroes ........ You can always not use them and get a PUG/henchies or whatever you like.

Just as a counter point - I always take henchie healers, Mhenlo and the Kirin (or something) dude. The hero builds I use pack so much killing power and so much defense, that healing is just a boring task that Mhenlo can handle one in a while.

I've found personally that using 2 hero spots on healers is a complete waste, since henchie healers are much better than henchie damage dealers, so it's better to replace the weaker members. And I even stopped using MM hero.

The only place where I do use a hero healer, is for last two NF missions, since I give them better skills than what they use. For everything else, they are redundant.

Kong, perhaps you don't understand my position. I only play a PVE mesmer, and that requires me to somehow "prove" myself to other people to join groups when I'm completely competant, while warriors and any other yahoo can just join in no questions asked for this X cookie cutter build. After capturing all elites and doing all missions and bonuses with only henchmen since people are either too ignorant to accept a mesmer or they're just plain dumber than a henchman, I've come to realize that unless people can prove themselves to me, they're not worth the hour it takes to put the group together just to wipe out in a few seconds. Kong, your whole person A person B scenario isn't at all what I'm saying. I'm saying that you should be able to play the game how you want to play the game, just as how I think you should be able to live life how you want to live it. Do you believe in communism or something? Stop crapping words out your mouth. If people want to play with their own heroes with their own skill bars with their own builds in their own game, they should be able to. If they want to play with other people, they should be able to. To each his own, jackass.

finding players for your group isn't the point. the problem is that the average player out there looking to join PUGs is INCOMPETENT, ie. cannot perform his task well, hence why someone would choose to take a AI replacement.

And here we are. Insults, arrogance, commandments, flaming...

Selfishness? Heh...

Here's a free tip on open forums: People have differing opinions. This happens when dealing with other human beings.

I propose this thread be closed now, since the point of asking for an opinion has passed, and has ended with a diatriabe.

you could still respond to my points!

And how are you "right?" Did I miss the part in Sunday School where the book of "Kaliticus" was discussed? Was there some divine edict that said "And so it shall be said by the Servant of Kali, and all was right in the world"?

If I'm on the toilet, and I have access to both toilet paper and toilet wipes, It would be unreasonable to use toilet paper to clean my rear.

/signed

with the introduction of hero's, it has made questing so much easier. I like to quest with groups also, but certain characters are still discriminated aggainst by those who really do not understand how to play the game, even know they have been playing since the beginning of GW's. Hero's gives you the option to play with a character who will be a team player regardless of you your main character is, they don't rage quit or go arf, or complain about anything.

I admit drop rates can be better with a team full of real players, but given that it is very rare to get a really good group of real players, hero's fit the bill fine. So yes an addition of 3 or 4 more would be nice to fill out the party given that henchies, while nice, hero's are simply better.

This is not about PUG vs. henchies.

It's about 3 heroes + 4 henchies vs. 7 heroes.

my eyes are still blurry along with a massive headache but you seem to be contradicting yourself

Let me add one final comment, to increase the amount of hero's to your party may also allow creative players the ability to come up with new stragities and builds to counter the cookie cutter builds and players who dominate them in the entire GW's community.

I am tired of being told that I need these certain skills or this build in order to compet in PVP or PVE play, in such places as GVG or HA, and increase I feel would not only benifit GW's as a whole, but would stop eletism, we would all be on a balanced playing field. If not for any other reason, then make it for that one, because only haveing 3 still puts you at a disadvantage in other areas such as HA and GVG.

Pretty much what I was going to say.

m3h how much fun can you have with a pug where ppl just join & say lets go without even saying hi or w/e.
man, some ppl are nice in this game but most ppl it would seem do not have even the common decency to say hello when joining a pug.
and this is from nearly a years exp.
it is still fun with heroes imo.






/signed

we should be able to take 7 heroes and not just 3
great idea & I fully support it

/signed for a similar idea.

Kudos to your idea, but i think the main problem is to have more suitable skill bars on henchman.

LOL at the people like the above poster who do not want to even allow others the option of having a full party of heroes.

I will agree that I have had the most fun in game when partied with a full group of live players, but there are times I just prefer to run with hench and heroes and would just like the *OPTION* to have a group of heroes.

That is all the op is suggesting after all, some of us would like the *OPTION* of having a full group of heroes if we wanted.

while i dont think it will happen (7heros)

you know as well as i do, ill be maintaining 7 hero's enchantments on little old me for huge fun!!!

/signed

The only real argument against this is that it isn't necessary, and is therefore a waste of developer time. But then again, heroes themselves weren't necessary either. The game has always been, and probably always will be, henchable.

If Anet has to rely on the fact that henchmen suck in order to artificially inflate the difficulty of their missions, then there is something else fundamentally wrong with their game.

To date, I have not seen a convincing argument for why players should not be able to assemble whatever kind of AI team they want. If I want to make a hero team with one warrior, five SF nukers, and two monks, why should the game stop me?

/not signed
as it would make pve a bit to easy, but i think you should be able 2 have 4 or 5 heros out, then you could do 5 man farm etc..would be fun