Perhaps this is the best time to buff bows/bow skills?

I remember in the not far off past when HoH was an eight person team, there was something called a Ranger Spike?

Bows are the lowest damage physical weapon in the game. A Recurve Bow actually isn't all that much better than a wand in terms of the damage it kicks out autoattacking.

Ranger skills are similarly gimped, the reason being that they're balanced around Expertise. Power Shot is a 5 energy skill that really costs 10 because they figure you're going to put a ton into Expertise to make it cost 5. Compared to taking a /Warrior secondary and a skill that actually costs (and is worth) 5, with Expertise making it 3, it just doesn't make any sense. Expertise needs to make good skills better, not bad skills mediocre. Also very few bow attacks do anything. Distracting Shot is great (and cheap, amazingly), Debilitating and Savage Shot are ok. Crippling Shot is still decent but expensive as hell. That's some decent utility, but what do you use to kill people?

Also Ranger bow users get reamed by Expertise. You need to pump Expertise and your Marksmanship pretty high just to function at all, which leaves very little room for your other Ranger attributes let alone your secondary. Contrast that with virtually every other profession, most of which only pump one attribute very highly and have a lot of flexibility - the rest of which don't even pump that one attribute very high.

So what you're left with is a character that doesn't deal heavy damage, but is forced into a utility role by his weapon and skills. However his attribute points and energy further restrict him from taking many other attributes and skills, really limiting him to Expertise and Marksmanship. Unfortunately there isn't much there, just DShot and some decent but not gamebreaking skills, and you're left with a character that makes you wish you had brought a Mesmer - a character with stronger utility, more flexibility, a stronger spike, and even more damage overall.

Peace,
-CxE

Bows definitely, no doubt about it, need buffed. Hell, rangers in general need to be completely reworked. Bows are the weakest (physical) weapon in the game and have the most atrocious skill set to compliment them. Let me explain:

During the development cycle the dev team decided they didn't like how rangers were turning out. They were too damage oriented. The dev team changed how rangers worked, taking away their ability to deal large amounts of physical damage and focusing instead on their ability to disrupt combat and apply conditions, and so rangers were at the release of GW:P and for the duration of the GW:P season they were a force to be reckoned with. Their skills were powerful, effective, flexible and robust.

The problem, however, is three-fold: Firstly, when the dev team switched gears on rangers they had to nerf a huge portion of ranger skills. Of course, they buffed others as well to balance it out, but in the end the original ranger skill pool was still feeling the effects of this change which resulted in only a handful of powerful skills followed by a huge assortment of trash that either is no longer powerful or could no longer mesh with the ranger concept. The PvP'ers among us can recognize this -- why else did rangers all go R/Me and fill skill slots with Inspired Hex and Drain Enchantment? Because there was nothing better to fit in those slots, and so you might as well fit in a little more enchantment or hex removal.

Secondly, the amount of powerful skills that mesh with bow rangers added by Factions and Nightfall is almost zero. You can list them on one hand. Natural Stride, Barbed Arrows, Screaming Shot and Burning Arrow. That's it.

Thirdly, the skills that the existing powerful skills from GW:P were effective against have slowly shifted out of the metagame. (Crippling Shot, Apply Poison, Distracting Shot, Savage Shot, Debilitating Shot are the skills I am referring to here.) Slow casting time spells have all but disappeared in favor of spells with 1s and faster casts, making interrupts almost worthless and condition removal has become more and more effective and making the condition spreading aspect weaker and weaker. And debil has been nerfed.

Bow rangers have started out with a shallow skill pool, haven't had it improved hardly at all, and now the metagame has moved on and left them behind. They're all but extinct nowadays, and the game is worse off without them. Something needs to be done about it.



P.S.:
To anyone who thinks that thumpers exist because of expertise, you're wrong. The power of the thumper lies in the pet. Expertise is just icing on the cake. Those two skill slots you spend on your pet, when combined with RaO, add a whopping 16 DPS to your character at no cost in-game beyond those two skill slots. In terms of raw hammer damage a thumper can never match a hammer warrior, but when you add in that 16 DPS from the pet and the ridiculously powerful RaO skill you end up with something that a hammer warrior, while doing much more damage per hit, just can't match up with. The fact that expertise allows you to spam your skills more frequently is just a fringe benefit when compared to the pet.

Lol @ touch rangers, they dont "pwn" they suck... ignorant people die from touch tangers because their to damn stupid to learn how to kite or use a snare. Its such a crappy build... people should learn how to play a build.

Rangers with bows rock, CG, CS some of the coolest builds :P I mean who doesnt like to go into ab with a Crip shot ranger and pwn face!!!!
There are plenty of good dmg builds, one I had the most fun with was a quick shot build read,fav,quick = 6x faster if you have qz and serpents wow your gonna have some crazy fun lol.

Why even bother with cripshot anymore? The best ranger cripple is a freaking derv skill. Grenth's fingers + any cheap bow skill > cripshot. You don't have have to dump a crapload of points into expertise and as a bonus you even get a decent self heal with natural healing.

And no, the solution to this is not to nerf Grenth's fingers, but buff crip shot FFS.

rangers always get buffed in updates..nerf them for once plz

i had an ele/w in my party using a sword and shield the other day which was a surprise

Just because a class recieved X number of buffs doesn't mean that they must recieve an equal part of nerfs to make them equal to other classes. Recieving a higher quantity of buffs doesn't mean that the class that recieved such is any closer to being overpowered.


@ OP: I agree, bow skills could really use a buff to bring them to a competitive level with other weapons.

/signed

Rangers have been hit by the nerf bat pretty hard lately. TF, pet DP nerfs, debil, blackout and crip shot, to name the most important skills they've had nerfed. Sure, they get alot of buffs as well, but it's always on unimportant and inconsequential skills. Who cares if you take a craptastic skill and make it deal 4 more damage? Not a ranger.

Bows are only as good as the person behind the bow. But thumpers are just a bashfest.

Most situations id rather a very skilled player be behind a bow then a thumper

Would you like a screenshot of me completing THK with my ranger equipped with no armor/skills/weapons with henchies?

I'd say something about my Sword Ranger, but I already know how that's going to go over.

After having played a Mesmer, I kinda have to agree with Ensign. Only real difference between a Mesmer Int and a Ranger Int is that a Ranger doesn't care what kind of skill it is. Which, to an experienced player, isn't a concideration.

I am curious what the game would be like if Rangers dealt more damage with their bows. But, curiosity alone is a poor reason to change a working system.

I'm surprised that the general opinion is "bows do not enough damage".
They are the physical weapon with the lowest damage, but they are ranged.
That alone is a huge advantage.
IMO the damage is fine.

Rangers are one of the most versatile classes (IMO THE most versatile).
Bow attacks simply lack that versatility though.
A few good and very good skills are mixed with many plain "you hit for +17 damage" ones (many with very conditional or odd side effects).

There are few Marksmanship skills that really contribute to a(ny) build idea.
You need to invest heavily in two lines to gain access to a crapload of "+17 damage" stuff.
Just not worth it since Expertise opens so many other doors...

I dont think a general buff is needed.
More uses for your arrows are.

True.

What bows need are some KD and stance-breaker skills. Elite skills possibly. Naturally, you couldn't KD someone by using a shortbow, but long and horn bows do fire projectiles with enough kinetic energy to knock a person down.


Ooooh, yes - a deep wound bow skill WOULD come in handy. RAWR!

Ahh yes, very great idea. I could see a bow attack that could knockdown moving foes, kinda like a "Pin Down" situation where you lodge an arrow in their calf while they're running: they'd trip and fall.

I hate to bring up LotR, but what about a skill representing the move Legolas used in the first one - He jabs his arrow into an orc standing in front of him, then proceeds to use the arrow on a distant target. So perhaps a "Quick Shot" type attack (separate from normal attacks, thus speeding up DPS), except a touch skill. Maybe it causes bleeding or something.

Also, another idea could be some kind of AoE webbing-like arrow, kinda like the Corsair's net skill. You fire it and target as well as all adjacent to target get hexed with Web Arrow, and move 33% slower for some-odd seconds.

This is definately hawt. Make it Broadhead Arrow-like, where it moves slower and has high arc - ya know, cause it's gotta be a giant serrated blade-head.

Bows are buggy sometimes, hence unreliable. When I say unreliable, I mean I get this "Obstructed" message sometimes when a I shoot at a target from a flat ground. And sometimes I can shoot through the walls or floors and hit my target.

Couple of days ago I was in ToA trying to get to forgemaster. I gathered a team, me as war, 3 fire ele, necro SS, 2mo and a ranger. All I asked from the ranger was to bring interrupts but he used Barrage instead. So SS on me all the time (monks didn't remove hexes and conditions) and all the other nasties from elementalists (I got only distracting blow, couldn't do much with it). I can understand that some ppl do not find it appealing to play supporting roles but then go ahead and play SF ele or SS necro at least they do real damage. In PvE the best ranger build IMHO is based on Broad Head Arrow and 2 other interrupts. Barrage is good only for B/P teams.

To be honest... I think Anet's been messing around with the stats, and spears deal more damage practically, than bows. They change the real damage output, not the 15-28 damage points. If people would see that, it'd be /quit GW for alot of people.

I've been messing in RA, and Spears just seem to deal alot more damage, without using skills, even. :s (And the fact that Spears CAN bring Deep Wounds... major plus over bows.)

That's because spear have a higher attack speed than bows.

Bows need a buff, its kinda sad that theres no real place for rangers at the moment. Its also annoying that theres no faction equivalent to punishing/magebane shot, so my ranger who I started in factions has no decent elite.

And how about a quiver like the Afflicted Rangers? ANet... duh if we can no longer fight like rangers at least let us look like rangers.

Knockdown and deep-wound skills are sorely needed since our interrupt skills have been nerfed into complete uselessness.

1 second (or less) skill activation + 1/2 second ranger interrupt + flight time + 1 second delay after = impossible to interrupt without spamming interrupts = useless ranger

Still my favorite class by far tho... just alot weaker than 18 months ago.

I think with right set up a Single Savage[skill]Savage Shot[/skill] shot can do over 80 dmg on a 60 armor.which scare a lot of caster. Beside If you play a lot with Ranger Interupt you will know that bow Interupt skill give you and extra shot which mean more damge when combine with preparation like Kindel arrow,Explosive Arrow.
Cant remember what skill i was using but I think i got very lucky shot on my Razor Jaw's Horn bow (Armor penetration bonus from the hornbow + 20% sundering mod)

People just need some insight from thier skill list.

Much faster. 60% faster. Combined with only an average damage of 1 point less per hit the only things bows have over spears as a damage weapon are that arrows fly faster and miss less than spears and arrows have a slightly longer range. That's about it.

That said, the power of bows should be in it's disruption and condition spreading, not in it's raw damage. Let the paragons deal the most raw ranged damage, but give rangers the tools to shape the flow of battle.

Bow are definitely not under-powered, and bow skills are not underpowered either. The interrupts and degenerative power a ranger can achieve with the available skills and a bow is comparable to anything a Necro of Ele can dish out. Granted, hexes are amazing, but so are conditions, especially when applied constantly as a nuisance, distractor, energy drainer, etc.

For me, playing a ranger is not just about damage. It's about really pi**ing off the enemies - be they in PvE or PvP - that I elect to stick with. However, as a class rangers are very far from underpowered; they need no buff, or the addition of a new weapon type.

The reason for hammers and swords and staves are numerous, from "thumpers" commonly seen in Heroes Ascent to trappers, degeners (beyond bows rangers have a hefty arsenal of stances available to them, many superior to those of the warrior and even Dervish in certain situations), and so forth.

I've always found rangers to be one of the most fun, versatile classes. The work for me, and they work very well. If you figure your way around them then it's very obvious that they do not need any sort of boost, nor do they need to be nerfed. They are what they are; the people who can play them well make it look like an over-powered class, and those who can't play them to save their lives make them appear under-powered, just as with every single other class available to those playing Guild Wars.

Please do not flame me, but in my opinion, ranger skills (mainly bows) need to have their energy cost lowered slightly but expertise needs to be downgraded significantly. This way, bow attacks still wont drain you down, but the ranger will no longer be equal with all primary attack-based classes.

Did I just imagine my A/D then?

Here's a Good one:

Critical Strikes: 12+3+1
Scythe Mastery: 12

Way of The Assassin , Critical Eye , Critical Defences , Assassin's Remedy , Wearying Strike , Twin Moon Sweep , Victorious Sweep and Resurection Signet

Ok, so it's want for some healing, and losing an enchantment via twin moon could be bad, but A/D does indeed exist.

Anyhow, the R/E the op was referring too is what's known in real life, as an idiot

Now; Touchies are not the bane of all existence, so everyone who whines about them being that needs some fresh air. But, the same goes for Thumpers, (Hammers,) and Trappers, (Staves.) They are not evil, unbalanced, boring, or any other word you might choose to deface them. Expertise is not overpowered, it is perfectly fine. Bows are perfectly fine, also. Theyve always been the weakest martial weapon in terms of raw damage, so why should that change now, when despite this undisputable fact, Rangers are still among the best spikers in the game. Add to that the innumerable conditions and interrupts they can pull off, (90%+ with a bow, I might add,) and you start to see why the bow's base DPS is so low. Yes, you can have a R/P with a spear, but the spear skills are not nearly as versatile as the bow ones and that is why people still use bows, despite what some might say.

EDIT: Glitched, you may say that you don't want to be flamed, but essentially what you are saying is that currently, all martial classes are equal and what you want is to make ranger inferior to all the others. Rangers are designed from the ground up to be versatile, please dont try and take that away from them, it would be completely unfair and would eliminate them from running any other weapon completely. And since all the other martial classes can interchange freely, it would easily make them the least versatile in the game. Oh, and no, I don't have a ranger, so it's not like I'm just sticking up for my profession - I'm actually arguing for the profession I enjoy the least here.

As far as i see it ranger skills or even bow dmg do not need buffs, the bow is a powerfull weapon if you know how to use it.

Atm the spear attack line has 1 interupt wich even needs a condition on the target to have effect. (while bow interupts do have bonusses )

i'd say the spear only looks good atm since it's one handed but the bow is still my favorite weapon

QFT

There I was yesterday, not quite minding my own business, when a group of Margonites stormed in from 12 o'clock. We were both on a flat road with nothing between us. When they closed in longbow range I fired a Burning Arrow into an Executioner. OBSTRUCTED. I was like "Dude, WTF?" .. Five minutes later there I was killing Beetles through a rock.

I love watching monks trying to remove poison from my target, when I'm using Apply Poison.

The bow is in no way underpowered. If you think the arrows move too slow, then use Favourable Winds or Read the Wind (both core skills). If you can't find a good set of attack skills, then you really shouldn't be playing a ranger.

Obviosly you know a good set of attack skills then, care to share this build?

And if it includes barrage, dont bother.

I know a few builds for damage without barrage:

expertise: 13
marks: 12
wilderness: 12

kindle arrows
forked arrow
savage shot
burning arrow
stance of your choice (suggest whirling or natural stride)
spirit (FW) or mending touch (monk)
troll
res sig

another build:

expertise: 13
marks 12
wilderness: 12

melandrus arrows (try and hit stuff with enchants on them)
forked arrow
dual shot
savage shot
stance of your choice (suggest whirling or natural stride)
spirit (FW) or mending touch (monk)
troll
res sig


another build:

expertise: 13
marks 12
wilderness: 12

melandrus arrows or kindle arrows
penetrating attack (3 second recharge) [spam]
sundering attack (faction twin of above) [spam]
savage shot
needling shot
whirlin/natural stride
troll
res sig

imho, rangers do fairly well at damage. (would like dual shots recharge dropped)

Compare it to
1) Searing Flame, Glowing Gaze, Liquid Flame (this one is spammable AoE combo)
2) Evescerate, Executioner's Strike, Penetrating Blow (old school but still works)
3) Unsuspecting Strike, Wild Strike, Twisting Fangs (well, assassins are there to kill things fast)
4) and so on, and so on...
Rangers can be good damage dealers in, let's say, B/P build or infamous ranger spike build. But still most of the damage comes from order necro, not rangers. Thumpers are good for PvP but running into a group of lvl28 mobs with 70al is not the best idea ever.

Just don't play your ranger as a primary damage dealer. Take couple of traps, conditions, interrupts and that will be much better for the team.
Dust Trap, Barbed Trap, Burning Arrow, Apply Poison, Savage Shot, Distracting Shot. This build is full of goodness

I didnt understand half of what you wrote, so I could be wrong when I post this. I had to get the jist from reading other peoples replies.

You were complaining about other professions and builds using weapons which they shouldnt be...... OK!!

How does that relate to bows and buffing their damage?

Where as I agree that rangers dont always do alot of damage. I dont see why their bows need boosting.

Isnt that what the countless dmg boosting skills and spirits are for? not to mention taking ele as secondary to add fire dmg to arrows.

I not a hugely experienced ranger but I personally wouldned choose to be one if you want to do staggering amounts of damage. I personally find their mostly effective at interupting, disabling, poising, knocking over and trapping.



But please use full english next time!

My understanding of this is 'I want to make a ranger with damage equalling a primary damage dealer PLUS all the groovy ranger conditions but can't figure out a way to make it happen so please give me a way to make super ranger'.
Rangers are supreme at what we do, but when you try to do more everything unravels. Yes thumpers are strong but they don't have the armor of a warrior, this balances them. Enough has been said about touchers... and trapping although quite effective does have its limitations like ANY other build. Play to your strengths and excel, but play to your weaknesses and well...die.

I've got all the professions maxxed out with the exception of only a handful of elites that I thought were stupid. Rangers are by far the best PvE profession there is. A team of good rangers is nearly unstoppable. Too much evasion, conditions, and the ability to run from a fight make them the best PvE profession in my opinion. Our guild used rangers and ranger heroes to absolutely dominate NF in every way possible, mastering most missions on the first try. They are certainly not under-powered.

I have two primary gripes with the profession however:

1) The new monster AI makes monster run almost non-stop. You end up missing with so many arrows on targets that aren't stationary. And it feels like almost no one is stationary in PvE anymore.

2) Losing your energy after targeting and firing a skill at enemy just as they die. I suppose this is true for eles as well. But any of us at range stand to lose too much energy when our target dies prior to connecting the skill arrow. This is especially frustrating with Barrage, cause you know the other arrows are going to hit the rest of the group. When your target dies just as you trigger the skill, you lose almost two seconds of combat while retargeting and using a skill, when in reality your barrage should have gone off anyway-- not to mention if the arrow is already away, you lose the skill for the duration of the recharge time.

I hate firing Savage Shot at an enemy who is about to die, but none the less might get off a Searing Flames spell or something. You fire, they die just before your arrow connects-- you do no damage and you lose the skill while it recharges. At the very least, the skill should return instantly if your arrow doesn't connect on a dying target.

I beg to differ LOL
My guild already beat some Top 100 with toucher team :P

I'm not sure I agree with your primary paragraph but I am right there with you on your second 2 points. Rangers (and paragons) have twice as many chances not to connect with their targets than anyone else. Everyone has to suffer "blocks," "evades," and "misses," but ranged characters also have the added bonuses of "dodges," "strays," and "obstructions" to put up with as well. And those are 3 counters that don't even take up space on your target's skill bar.