Why does everyone assume Rits are heal specced?
Slirith
everytime i get into a group, im always asked if im resto and when i say no, i get kicked >.> i refuse to be a healbot/weapon bot so i never took any resto skills
draxynnic
Generally, it's because of the general shortage of healers. They're not discriminating specifically against nonhealing Ritualists, it's because they're simply looking for a healer.
If I were you, I'd either expect to do missions with heroes/henchies/guildies, or I'd bite the bullet and pick up the skills you need to make a healer build. That way, you can go into a party and say "I'd prefer to use (insert non-healing build here), but if we need the healing, I can switch."
In my experience, by doing this, I've found that about half the time I've ended up not being the healer after all - however, even then, the offer is usually appreciated. Just keep in mind all the times you've waited in vain for a healer to show up to fill out the party (if you've never been in such a situation, you're luckier than most) - even if you don't personally enjoy the role, in a cooperative game, when you're playing a profession that can serve as a healer than every so often you should be willing to take it for the team so that everybody can get through the mission. A little bit of flexibility can go a long way.
If I were you, I'd either expect to do missions with heroes/henchies/guildies, or I'd bite the bullet and pick up the skills you need to make a healer build. That way, you can go into a party and say "I'd prefer to use (insert non-healing build here), but if we need the healing, I can switch."
In my experience, by doing this, I've found that about half the time I've ended up not being the healer after all - however, even then, the offer is usually appreciated. Just keep in mind all the times you've waited in vain for a healer to show up to fill out the party (if you've never been in such a situation, you're luckier than most) - even if you don't personally enjoy the role, in a cooperative game, when you're playing a profession that can serve as a healer than every so often you should be willing to take it for the team so that everybody can get through the mission. A little bit of flexibility can go a long way.
Epinephrine
Think about it - why do we assume monks are healers? Because that's what they are needed for. Seldom is a group looking for the damage a smiter can deal, they want a monk for healing. A group looking for firepower may want a channeling rit, but there are many professions vying for the role of damage dealer, and only really two that can do a reasonable job of healing (support healing can come from dervish and paragons with the right setup, but unless they are really odd builds they simply don't heal well enough for a healing role).
Many groups fill up on damage dealers fast, leaving them to spam "GLF 2 monks!" for hours. They probably opt for a ritualist, on a blind invite, to see if you are a healer and if so grab you before another group spamming "GLF 2 monks!" does. When you don't heal they drop you, since they didn't want a rit specifically, they want a healer.
What I don't get is why people even ask what you do. I have about a dozen rit templates saved, varying from full offense to full defense. Full unlock for ritualist, with monk, mesmer and paragon unlocks to support it, as well as some decent minion stuff for Rt/N. If I need to swap it's painless, fast and I can fill most roles... so why bother asking what someone does? Are people really so unimaginative that they find a build they like and use it at every mission, all the time? How boring...
Oh, and refusing to heal is just being a stubborn jerk - everyone needs to make sacrifices sometimes. You would probably be annoyed (and rightfully so) if you had a ranger in the group and you said "Winter really helps here, the enemies are weak against cold damage" and he said "I never use Winter. Nobody can make me."
Being a healer may not always be the solution, but it can be worth trying - there are even some fun partial healing builds out there - the channeling line offers a few skills which are handy an cast on an ally (Splinter weapon, Ancestor's rage) that blend well with healing - allowing you to play two roles.
Many groups fill up on damage dealers fast, leaving them to spam "GLF 2 monks!" for hours. They probably opt for a ritualist, on a blind invite, to see if you are a healer and if so grab you before another group spamming "GLF 2 monks!" does. When you don't heal they drop you, since they didn't want a rit specifically, they want a healer.
What I don't get is why people even ask what you do. I have about a dozen rit templates saved, varying from full offense to full defense. Full unlock for ritualist, with monk, mesmer and paragon unlocks to support it, as well as some decent minion stuff for Rt/N. If I need to swap it's painless, fast and I can fill most roles... so why bother asking what someone does? Are people really so unimaginative that they find a build they like and use it at every mission, all the time? How boring...
Oh, and refusing to heal is just being a stubborn jerk - everyone needs to make sacrifices sometimes. You would probably be annoyed (and rightfully so) if you had a ranger in the group and you said "Winter really helps here, the enemies are weak against cold damage" and he said "I never use Winter. Nobody can make me."
Being a healer may not always be the solution, but it can be worth trying - there are even some fun partial healing builds out there - the channeling line offers a few skills which are handy an cast on an ally (Splinter weapon, Ancestor's rage) that blend well with healing - allowing you to play two roles.
Pick Me
Group needs healers because they tend not to be careful enough not to get killed. Protectors/Communors are good as well, but people tend to like healers because they themselves (for some odd reason) lack the ability to heal themselves.
If people always assumes that a healer will heal them, they will continuously fight non-stop and expect to survive. They ignore the pleas of others and they ignore the damage they themselves are taking.
As a monk (healer, protector, bonder) and as a Ritualist (Restorer and Communor) I see this happen more often than I'd like. I'll retreat (if possible) and ping everyone to join me to regroup. Over aggroing is a constant problem I find in PUGs.
If you don't take restoration skills, then you don't self heal either. So what do you use to rez (Rez Signet, Jar, Restoration, or no rez at all). A group of 7 non-monks/ritualists, and you want to join them with no healing whatso ever, can you not see a problem?
If people always assumes that a healer will heal them, they will continuously fight non-stop and expect to survive. They ignore the pleas of others and they ignore the damage they themselves are taking.
As a monk (healer, protector, bonder) and as a Ritualist (Restorer and Communor) I see this happen more often than I'd like. I'll retreat (if possible) and ping everyone to join me to regroup. Over aggroing is a constant problem I find in PUGs.
If you don't take restoration skills, then you don't self heal either. So what do you use to rez (Rez Signet, Jar, Restoration, or no rez at all). A group of 7 non-monks/ritualists, and you want to join them with no healing whatso ever, can you not see a problem?
Sihaya Syme
Quote:
Originally Posted by Epinephrine
If I need to swap it's painless, fast and I can fill most roles... so why bother asking what someone does? Are people really so unimaginative that they find a build they like and use it at every mission, all the time? How boring...
I don't see what's wrong with creating a build you like and are good with, and sticking to it. Just like I don't get why many are so convinced that if you don't change your secondary for this-and-this area, you can never get anywhere.
If you can play multiple builds and be equally good at all of them, congratulations to you!
But people forget sometimes that not everyone is equally talented. Gaming and tactics can be hard. Some people have a reason for sticking to one build. That doesn't mean they're stupid or bad players. Maybe they just want a certain something from their character. That doesn't mean it has to get boring.
About ritualist expectations... It's the same with all classes, I think. Everyone sees warriors as the tanks, the ele's as the nukers, and so on. It's just stereotypes. I wouldn't bother with it too much
If you can play multiple builds and be equally good at all of them, congratulations to you!
But people forget sometimes that not everyone is equally talented. Gaming and tactics can be hard. Some people have a reason for sticking to one build. That doesn't mean they're stupid or bad players. Maybe they just want a certain something from their character. That doesn't mean it has to get boring.
About ritualist expectations... It's the same with all classes, I think. Everyone sees warriors as the tanks, the ele's as the nukers, and so on. It's just stereotypes. I wouldn't bother with it too much
FoxBat
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pick Me
Group needs healers because they tend not to be careful enough not to get killed. Protectors/Communors are good as well, but people tend to like healers because they themselves (for some odd reason) lack the ability to heal themselves.
There's a reason we make fun of wammos, having 8 warriors with mending and healing signet is not as efficient as 6 pure damage warriors and two monks in any remotely challenging area, or having some stance tanks if you really needed the defense. Not to say that self-heal is worse than no heal or insufficient heal with a lack of monks, or that other things you mentioned like kiting and over-aggroing aren't important for mitigating damage, but as long as your group doesn't need to split (most of PvE), only a few classes will find a self-heal efficient when healer classes are avaliable.
Epinephrine
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sihaya Syme
I don't see what's wrong with creating a build you like and are good with, and sticking to it. Just like I don't get why many are so convinced that if you don't change your secondary for this-and-this area, you can never get anywhere.
Well, I think that you learn little that way, and get stuck making the same mistakes a lot. You can also easily find that you can't effectively group up - "Oh, we've already got a minion master". Flexibility and learning to think through a problem are good skills, and even if it's just swapping a few skills around, it teaches you to adapt. Plugging away with a single build is like driving screws in with a hammer, because it worked so well with the nails you were using. Sure, you can drive them that way, but it's simply not efficient. And substituting the hammer for a bottle opener or cork screw may get the liquid out, but it's inferior to just picking up the right tool for a task.
I would never say that you can't do an area with a given build, or that you should always re-skill before adventuring, but there are times when one should at least look at the options and re-evaluate. Not to do so is just insulting to the 3 pounds of meat you carry in that box on your shoulders.
I would never say that you can't do an area with a given build, or that you should always re-skill before adventuring, but there are times when one should at least look at the options and re-evaluate. Not to do so is just insulting to the 3 pounds of meat you carry in that box on your shoulders.
frojack
I have personally gone for defensive builds lately with Weapon of Remedy/ Reversal of Damage (credit to the guys that found this combo) and a semi-smite/heal build. I love running it.
However, I rarely ever do 'pure' healing as a Rit. Though I may 'semi-heal' to support the monks. I just don't feel as effective at healing as a monk. I've done it enough, and that's how I feel about it.
So to assume someone who chooses to 'not' be a healing Rit is a 'stubborn jerk' is way out of line and bordering on asinine...
However, I rarely ever do 'pure' healing as a Rit. Though I may 'semi-heal' to support the monks. I just don't feel as effective at healing as a monk. I've done it enough, and that's how I feel about it.
So to assume someone who chooses to 'not' be a healing Rit is a 'stubborn jerk' is way out of line and bordering on asinine...
TheUndertaker
I don't think someone who refuses to heal as a rit is a "stubborn jerk." However, I don't think they should expect to get picked up in a lot of groups either. There's an extreme shortage of healers in the game, so if you have the ability to heal, ppl want you to do it. Luckily, my heros have yet to kick me out of the group for refusing to play the healer. Not saying they won't, but they haven't yet.
Epinephrine
Quote:
Originally Posted by frojack
Sihaya Syme
But 'forcing' someone to play a build he's not used to will only get bad results, and I don't think anyone is going to be happy when a ritualist who isn't used to having to heal suddenly has to take the part and fail.
I for one do not want to get flamed for something like that. And flamed you'll get in such a situation.
I for one do not want to get flamed for something like that. And flamed you'll get in such a situation.
Prefectus
hmm get in to groups early and tell them youre build ive never been kicked for being a damage rit. but then agen i have loged to help groups with my monk if needed although my monk has done just about everything there is to do lol
Coloneh
Lightning magic>channeling
so much more damage
so much more damage
Redfeather1975
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coloneh
Lightning magic>channeling
so much more damage If all you are using skills for is lightning damage then yes!
Both Air and Channeling have very different skills!
so much more damage If all you are using skills for is lightning damage then yes!
Both Air and Channeling have very different skills!
Epinephrine
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redfeather1975
If all you are using skills for is lightning damage then yes!
Both Air and Channeling have very different skills!
Agreed. Channeling has interrupts, health gain, energy management and so on. Just like air has knockdown, blind and weakness. All depends on what you need. And Channeling is more efficient damage, working better if energy is a concern.
Both Air and Channeling have very different skills!
Agreed. Channeling has interrupts, health gain, energy management and so on. Just like air has knockdown, blind and weakness. All depends on what you need. And Channeling is more efficient damage, working better if energy is a concern.
Redfeather1975
I think if it's somehow necessary to gauge a profession by what they are simply the best at I would say that the ritualist is the best at self preservation.
What other profession can keep itself alive better against any type of damage ,without relying on a secondary or easily removed enchantments, than a ritualist?
What other profession can ressurect themself! Through Frozen Soil even! lol
What other profession can keep itself alive better against any type of damage ,without relying on a secondary or easily removed enchantments, than a ritualist?
What other profession can ressurect themself! Through Frozen Soil even! lol
Redfeather1975
The lag is driving me wonky bonkers! Must....not....hit reply more than once.
Ensign
Quote:
Originally Posted by Epinephrine
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by FoxBat
There's a reason we make fun of wammos, having 8 warriors with mending and healing signet is not as efficient as 6 pure damage warriors and two monks in any remotely challenging area
This isn't directed at you, but you've prompted me to comment with this.
Sure, we make fun of W/Mos for running Mending and the like in a team situation where those skills really don't accomplish much - we'd much rather have our Warrior spend their skills and energy on killing things and only incidentally care about staying alive. There is a caveat to that, that I think gets overlooked by all the belittling. The W/Mo did get one thing right, and that is that the burden of staying alive is not placed entirely on the Monks. Oftentimes, it feels like more offensively oriented characters treat the Monks as an endless font of healing that lets them do whatever they want, and that simply isn't the case. I might be giving your average player too much credit, but I think people play much more cautiously when they know they don't have a Monk around. That mentality needs to remain even when you have a Monk. The Warrior/Monk gets made fun of because he charges in like a moron, takes a ton of damage, and his meager healing can't possibly keep up with the damage coming in. That's not too far removed from how many other characters play, however, with multiple superior runes, no defense, and an active distaste for kiting. Peace, -CxE
draxynnic
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sihaya Syme
But 'forcing' someone to play a build he's not used to will only get bad results, and I don't think anyone is going to be happy when a ritualist who isn't used to having to heal suddenly has to take the part and fail.
I for one do not want to get flamed for something like that. And flamed you'll get in such a situation. Generally, the people who do so are Leeroys who think the healers can somehow keep them alive regardless of however stupid they are. I've yet to be flamed from another player who's actually shown respectable competance themselves... On the other side of the equation, I don't think I've ever blamed a human healer for a time that I've died - normally, I can trace it to my own stupidity or a mistake someone else has made that has simply led to the healing being overwhelmed. (NPC healers, on the other hand... sometimes their healing priority can be a little... off.) On "forcing someone to play a build (s)he's not used to": Well, people can learn. Every healer in the game started somewhere. It's my personal belief that every player should play a healer sometime. It doesn't need to be their favourite character, nor does it have to be permanent... but at the very least, every player should get enough experience to have a basic idea of what the healer can and can't do. And if you're playing a profession like the Ritualist - that can heal, but which Ritualist players often prefer to use for other things - such experience will set you in good stead for when you are asked to fill the role. One thing I did getting through Prophecies with my monks is that, while henching, I did it without support. You don't get a second monk henchman until the desert, so in order to push myself to be at least as good as Alesia, I left Alesia behind while henching unless there was an area I was having particular difficulty with. This wasn't out of any sense of stubborness...simply that I thought it would be good practise for later. The bottom line is: You don't need to be the best healer in the game to be better than no healer at all. Personally, as long as no one had Survivor title tracks they were nursing (and if so, they shouldn't be pugging) and it wasn't a Masters group, I'd rather fail a mission with inexperienced healers (especially if they were up-front about it) than not go on the mission at all. That way, everyone gets a bit of XP and loot from the failed attempt, the healers get some experience with the build, other players can come up with ways to counter whatever killed the party and otherwise shore up the healers' shortcomings, and give it another go. And at the end of the day, you may all get through the mission after a couple of hours and a couple of failed attempts, while another group may still be spamming for their 'perfect' group.
Dr Strangelove
Generally people think of rits as monks by another name simply because rits are currently almost worthless as pure damage dealers. *Screams as the angry mob tears me to pieces*. Rits focusing on nothing but the craptacular channeling damage spells are missing out on an awful lot. Good rit builds generally incorporate a hefty amount of group defense, with a little pain thrown back at the other side for good measure.
This doesn't mean all rits should concentrate on nothing but healing, but keep in mind that part of your job as a rit is to take some pressure off the monks, however many there may be. For any class, you should be willing to change your build every time you go into a new area. When playing with more conditional classes, like mesmers, rits, and necros, I make a point of clearing my skillbar and remaking it with every new area so I'm best set up to counter whatever I'll be facing. Never changing your build because you're "uncomfortable" only leads to flare spamming warriors with frenzy and power attack because those were the first skills they got in pre. Slirith
im glad i shelved my rit. why is it that to group with other people you have to be pigeon-holed into a spec you dont like to do? and yes, im one of those people that refuse to heal cause i've done it before in other games. i dont wanna play whack-a-mole with health bars.
Pick Me
Well, hope you feel the same way when a monk or rit says they don't want to heal either. Or a Necro says he/she is not a MM, SS, blood spiker, etc.
Personally, I don't mind healing as a Rit or Monk. I do enjoy a good smiting of the enemies every now and again, but if I can help the group out, then I'll do whatever I can to do so. As long as you bring your own healing and don't expect someone else to heal/remove conditions/hexes for you, you have every right to play the way you want to.
Jetdoc
It's the same reason that:
Warriors are expected to be aggro takers. Monks are expected to be healers. Rangers are expected to be interrupters. Elementalists are expected to be Meteor Shower spammers (i.e. Nukers). Necros are expected to be minion masters/SS spammers. Assassins are expected to be minion sources. People get comfortable with their preconceived notions. It takes playing with an extraordinary exception to that rule for (a relatively few) people to change those notions. I know I've done that in Alliance Battles, when people see me completely devastating shrines and withstanding pounding by 2-3 warriors with my Channeling/Restoration/Warding Rit.
Cebe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetdoc
Assassins are expected to be minion sources.
Very well said
SpeedyKQ
I have the opposite problem. I play my rit as a pure restoration healer and I'm constantly trying to convince people that when I'm there the group needs one fewer monk.
Pick Me
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeedyKQ
I have the opposite problem. I play my rit as a pure restoration healer and I'm constantly trying to convince people that when I'm there the group needs one fewer monk.
Thats because people either don't know what a Ritualist can do (if you say heal, they assume you are a weak healer), feel more comfortable with a Monk healer/protector/bonder, or too old to even think about "change".
Don't be discouraged, at least you are in a group. And with 2 monks with you, you will never be blamed for a team wipe.
Mogster
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pick Me
Sometimes people tend to get themselves into more trouble than a Monk can handle (over aggro) and it is upto you to secretly save the party. The party may not congratulate you, but you know the monks will hang their head down in shame if they didn't do their job.
That is so true.
lennymon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pick Me
Thats because people either don't know what a Ritualist can do (if you say heal, they assume you are a weak healer), feel more comfortable with a Monk healer/protector/bonder, or too old to even think about "change".
Don't be discouraged, at least you are in a group. And with 2 monks with you, you will never be blamed for a team wipe.
Of course that IS assuming that *both* monks aren't total idiots... unlikely, but chances are, 1/2 is.
Rion
Quote:
Originally Posted by frojack
Weapon of Remedy/ Reversal of Damage (credit to the guys that found this combo)
How is this a combo? Apart from that they stack... And why is it better to run RoD over say, Vengeful Weapon?
Redfeather1975
From what I've seen, WOR still procs even though ROD prevents the damage and reverses it. So you get two sources of damage done to the attacker, but none to the person being attacked.
So the attacker takes WOR+ROD damage and the attackee takes no damage but gets healed from WOR. If I remember right! I could be wrong.
Rion
But if someone's being attacked anyway, chances are they won't get the chance to stack with each other, right? Might as well just use Vengeful Weapon.
I'm not saying it's no good, I just can't see why it's worth using. Show me the light!
LifeInfusion
If a group wants you to be some TYPE of build and you don't want to play that way, join another group.
That said, I agree with many others that you cannot have a static skillbar. Trying to run something like a searing flames hero in Realm of Torment, for example would be suicidal because of Call to the Torment. That's when the single target damage gets put in its place.
Oso Minar
You mean to tell me that all Ritualists AREN'T Restoration-specced?!
In all seriousness, though, most of the time I simply use Heroes and Henchmen to just do everything myself. They're easily as competent as human players (especially the Heroes, they can be almost better sometimes), and they don't complain. If there is a mission that I'm really stuck on, in all honesty I don't mind healing. I feel that the Ritualist can be a wonderful healer when used properly, and in my own (very personal) opinion I think that our greatest strength when in a group is filling a healing slot. Does this mean that it's always fun or rewarding? Well, when jerks are complaining, it's not fun, but if you're with a good group and you come into it saying that you're interested in healing, you can almost feel the relief from everyone else in the group. It's quite satisfying to me to ensure that the team stays alive. I like the sense of accomplishment that I get at the end of the mission, especially when other people send me a whisper saying that "they never knew a Ritualist could heal so well" or some other variation. People just kick you because they're looking for a healer. If you don't want to heal, then don't get angry if people don't want you in their group. If you sign up for a DPS role and get kicked, well, that's a different argument (can Ritualists play as good a role as Elementalists in terms of DPS?), one I won't touch on here. To say that you will not fulfill a healing role on the team (when we as Ritualists can do it very effectively) is fine, but to complain about not getting as many groups isn't terribly cool. More groups for me though, eh?
NukeouT
Ritualists work great as healers. A monk and a restoration ritualist are almost always a better combo than just two monks. Like somebody stated earlier; Ritualists are infact able to overlap monk buff spells without removing them and visa versa. This would allow a well stiffened player to aggro with some sucsess or an inexperienced assasin that buff they definetley need when they try to pretend to be warriors.
Because ritualists not only use different spells than monks, but also summon different type of creature onto the battlefield they do not end up competing for corpses with the minion master, making them that much more efficient in addition to spirit auto-cast buffs/hexes. In addition the flexibility allows for multiple ritualists that might be able to organize and switch to fill many roles within the party before the group heads out. MM, Nuker, Channeling, Restoration ect according to what else the party cant find. Thats why usually when youre starting to look for groups, get a rit if you see one!Sometimes players assume you are heal specced because they have never seen/played with your class, or do not own the Factions expansion set (which atm happens to be the only o ne with ritualists). Sometimes the group has already filled all the positions and is only looking for a monk, in which case you may be invited and asked if you would like to switch to restoration to fill the role of a monk. In the same way that when they look for elementalists or something of that sort, and invite a ritualist who may be asked to set up a channeling build. Or a mm slot for which they may be asked to set up a spirit build (or in the event of a Rt/N, a mm build.) While in the end some players do not know anything about a rit and infact assume that we are simply prettier looking monks! What ever the case, rits make it easier for ppl to form groups in areas where there are fiew people and to fill holes for groups where the right people can not be located on the spot! -not to mention expanding gameworld diversity! O,<
Lysander Freeman
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeedyKQ
I have the opposite problem. I play my rit as a pure restoration healer and I'm constantly trying to convince people that when I'm there the group needs one fewer monk.
This always happens to me, unless someone influential in the group has seen me restoration builds in action. That's build*s* plural. When I did the Troubled Keeper, luckily the leader of the party knew how well a Rit could heal a party so there wasn't any issue. In fact, when we split my half of the team stayed alive better than the other half that had a monk. That could be from bad luck in spawns, the work of my teammates, etc. but fact was that I held up my team more than well enough to succeed.
Anyways, I think that by a certain time in the game everyone should be expected to be able to have unlocked enough skills to be able to adjust to at least a limited number of situations. Restoration is one of the Ritualists' attributes - I think that makes one of the Rit's primary roles extremely obvious. In another situation, the first time I did Raisu Palace and got Masters it was with a five ritualist, one monk and two others team. I was minion bombing and the other rits were doing some nifty damage and we got it done in 16 minutes. Versatility goes a long way in accomplishing goals in a cooperative environment. |
