Never really understand the skill balance until now - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

Grolubao

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Nov 2006

Almada, Portugal

Silêncio Nocturno

Mo/A

09 Jan 2007 at 11:04 - 1

Hi all!
I've always been a core PvE player, and basically gone through all the chapters from Prophecies to Nighfall and one thing that always kept me bugging was the constant skill updates(nerfs) from ANet. I always thought that this simply looked too much like the constant card bans we had in MtG.

Recently I've been playing competitive GvG and I'm totally loving it! Anyway I now fully understand the skill nerfs since they bring a fresh new play for GvG. I'm totally tired of people playing the same Euro-spike build over and over again.

I can't wait to see what they will do to a lot of overused skills in GvG. Since new skills are released each 6 months that would be a lot of time having always the same builds, so go on with the nerfs!

The only thing that I don't really appreciate is the grind that is needed in the ladder. Let's hope that with the tournaments things change a bit.

Yanman.be

Banned

Join Date: Dec 2005

Belgium

[ROSE]

A/

09 Jan 2007 at 11:06 - 2

Now if only more PvE players would see this.

Redfeather1975

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2006

Apartment#306

Rhedd Asylum

Me/

09 Jan 2007 at 11:07 - 3

I don't play GVG yet, but I did read on the main site that skill updates do have an underlying purpose of forcing guilds to use some different skills in order to remain competitive.
There's that one guild Esoteric Warriors that manages to keep coming out with new builds.

Yanman.be

Banned

Join Date: Dec 2005

Belgium

[ROSE]

A/

09 Jan 2007 at 11:09 - 4

EW doesn't do FotM that much do they? They nerf the FotM, not what the good guilds use sometimes.

The Ernada

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Nov 2006

09 Jan 2007 at 11:12 - 5

I'm so glad to see a PVE'er see the light about skill balances. Everyone should go play some GvG before complaining about skill changes affecting PVE, then they'd see how vital it is for balance in PVP and compare how insignificant skill changes are in PVE.

Redfeather1975

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2006

Apartment#306

Rhedd Asylum

Me/

09 Jan 2007 at 11:12 - 6

Oh sorry. What I meant was that it looked like Esoteric Warriors is an example of a guild that makes new builds because they know that skill updates try to influence the effectiveness of popular ones.
Maybe other guilds will follow suit. I don't know.

lightblade

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

The Etereal Guard

Me/Mo

09 Jan 2007 at 18:56 - 7

It was never about the "balancing".
It's all about changing things around to give you a new sense of the game.

Str0b0

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

North Carolina

N/Me

09 Jan 2007 at 19:05 - 8

I wish they could segregate the two. I am not a PvP player. I have no interest in it and I don't care if this skill means that some other team in the PvP area can kill you in three seconds. I understand why they do it. I really do, I just wish there was a way for them to balance it for PvP without killing it for PvE.

reetkever

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Dec 2005

Mo/E

09 Jan 2007 at 19:12 - 9

I understand the skill balance for gvg... But I don't understand how PvE builds should chance because someone found an overpowered build in a totally different part of the game.

I don't PvP at all, so for me, the skill balances are just plain annoying. (lots of skills I used are now rather useless, and they weren't overpowered in PvE at all)

Tachyon

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2005

Stoke, England

The Godless [GOD]

W/

09 Jan 2007 at 19:34 - 10

I too don't understand why just because a few numptys in PvP moan about a skill being 'overpowered' we who play PvE have to suffer the nerfbat (or skill balancing as it's called). I mean, what's the use in having a PvE element if all they do is nerf useful PvE skills to pander to the moanings of a few PvP players?

Simple fact is, if you don't like a skill in PvP then don't use it or just learn to live with it.

Sihaya Syme

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jan 2007

Belgium, Europe

Grenth's Rejects [GR]

N/Me

09 Jan 2007 at 19:42 - 11

I take it PvE gets the same 'nerfs' because you can take your PvE character to the battle ilses, too... A PvE character with unchanged skills in a PvP area would be a bad idea.

Sarevok Thordin

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

Scotland

W/N

09 Jan 2007 at 19:53 - 12

I play a mix of PvE and PvP. PvE for unlocks and taking a break

PvP for kicks and fun.

PvP is the competitive side and really should get priority to balance, otherwise the argueably most attractive side of GWs is suffering =(.

PvE has been getting PvE only skills recently, so it might compensate...

Shendaar

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2006

P4n드4k트 F0rm4710n

W/

09 Jan 2007 at 20:27 - 13

Skill balance has little to no effect on PvE, except when it is farming related. The fact that in PvE you can get away with your monk having Healing Breeze and Mending on their bar speaks for itself.

The Ernada

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Nov 2006

09 Jan 2007 at 20:28 - 14

Wow. And still PVE players are moaning about skill changes. I play a lot of PVE myself and don't understand why the crying about skill changes in PVE. Most of PVE is so easy that it doesnt even matter what you put on your skill bar, so what exactly is the problem of "nerfs" when it comes to PVE?

FoxBat

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Apr 2006

Amazon Basin [AB]

Mo/Me

09 Jan 2007 at 20:30 - 15

Searing Flames as the only viable nuking option is bad for PvE too.

RaOs outclassing warriors for damage is bad for PvE too.

Old energizing finale giving your monks infinite energy is bad for challenging PvE IE DoA too.

SoA outclassing every other prot spell and making 55/135 invcimonks easier than ever is bad for PvE too.

Balance is not quite as vital to PvE as PvP, but it still matters. It gets boring seeing and using the same builds there all the time, too.

Grolubao

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Nov 2006

Almada, Portugal

Silêncio Nocturno

Mo/A

09 Jan 2007 at 20:43 - 16

Quote:

Originally Posted by lightblade

It was never about the "balancing".
It's all about changing things around to give you a new sense of the game.

Totally right! It gives a fresh new way of playing.

The Ernada

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Nov 2006

09 Jan 2007 at 20:55 - 17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azagoth

Simple fact is, if you don't like a skill in PvP then don't use it or just learn to live with it.

Ok this is the most ridiculously flawed (flawed is a polite way of putting it) post in here. If a skill is overpowered in PVP, you cant avoid it if the opposing side is using it! If someone is using an unbalanced skill against me, how does it help at all if I dont use it? The logic is so horrible, that I think they should revoke your posting priviledges.

And take your own advice, in PVE it's far far far easier to "live with it" then it is in PVP. Same goes for not using a particular skill if you don't like it.

Kakumei

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2005

Grind is subjective

learn this please

09 Jan 2007 at 21:03 - 18

This thread sure is worthwhile.

(hint: no it isn't)

Chaos Herald

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Feb 2006

always changing.

09 Jan 2007 at 23:05 - 19

first, the pve isn't "screwed over". I play both pvp and pve, and frankly, in pve it doesn't matter if a skill is overpowered, you "earn to live with it. But in pvp it does matter, it does matter if you get killed by armor-ignoring damage before you can take three steps out of the starting point. AI doesn't care, but people care if you take their <insert cash prize amount here> dollars in 3 seconds.
/end rant

Shendaar

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2006

P4n드4k트 F0rm4710n

W/

09 Jan 2007 at 23:09 - 20

As far as I can recall, every time PvE was "screwed over" it had something to do with some farming build or the enemy AI. Nothing that has to do with PvP.

Like I said, skill balance that are done for PvP have little to no effect on PvE.

Mortis

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2006

Hate The [Cape]

W/

09 Jan 2007 at 23:40 - 21

In PvP, an overpowered skill, I will be using Searing Flames as my example, isn't possible to avoid. Everyone will be using it, which will make the aspect of pvp quite boring. In a perfect world, not everyone would run Searing Flames elementalist spike teams, I'm sure alot of players have been trying other things, but found themselves overpowered by the SF teams. Some have beaten SF teams, but generally found it boring to face nothing but SF teams. Due to this, SF teams basically ruined HA, most of them were heroway teams, with only one real player. That's been fixed now, since you need 4 humans minimum.

I see above it is claimed that RaO is outclassing warriors in pvp damage wise. Let me suggest another way of thinking about it; RaO is a pressure build, Warriors are spikers nowadays.

As an experienced player of both PvE and PvP, my opinion is that skill balance changes are needed. It's easy to moan about your fav PvE skill getting less effective, but, in the end, it's easy to find another skill to do the same job in PvE. You're only bashing a bunch of npcs anyway, right? However, in PvP, you fight, not silly AI, but real people, they can think just like you! You need more effective ways and plans to beat them than you will need in PvE.

Personally, I remember the Eviscerate nerf well, was my fav skill of all time. It was an ace skill in both PvP and PvE, a very high hitter in PvP. It was nerfed, I believe, because Decapitate was meant to be the replacement, and it's a very nice replacement, you just have to swap the spike skill order around a bit.

But, to the point; PvE'ers should respect it when skills that ruin PvP are made less effective, and PvP'ers should do the same when skills that make PvE "too easy" are "fixed".

Probably the most attention drawing PvE beneficial skill nerfed lately was spirit bond, which made 55 monking easy. Now that's replaced sufficiently by SoA. See? SB nerf seemed like the end of the world for some, now they're happily using SoA. There's always going to be another way and another skill.

Redfeather1975

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2006

Apartment#306

Rhedd Asylum

Me/

09 Jan 2007 at 23:53 - 22

In Everquest 2 the developers played a smart move.

We have a description window of the spell with a little checkbox in it.
When you check the box the skill description changes from the PVE skills effects to the PVP skills effects.
That's right! They had two skill effects, including cost, recharge, damage, ect for both PVE and PVP.

Maybe Anet should try to implement that idea at some point in the future?
It was a very smart move in EQ2.

arcanemacabre

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Feb 2006

North Kryta Province

Angel Sharks [As]

10 Jan 2007 at 00:03 - 23

I started playing almost a year ago, with my necro. The first "nerf" I ever experienced was the minion limit, and it was a huge hit to me, since I loved playing MM. That first moment when I realized what happened, I was outraged. I started to give up MMing all together and looked to go cap some other elites, like SS, and try out different builds.

Then it hit me... Aha! This is exactly the point to "nerfs" and skill changes. I had been so blinded by an obviously overpowered build, that I never wanted to try anything else - it would seriously gimp me, and I would no longer be as effective. Now, MM would drop in power, but would actually be on-par with other necro builds, offering several options instead of just one super option.

Since then, I learned how to cope with a 10-minion limit, still able to have a powerful MM build, while still being able to use other builds without loss of power. I also learned the value of skill changes, as they offer up new build options. Simply put, skills need to be changed to avoid overuse and staleness.

Wildi

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2006

PvE is the Metagame

10 Jan 2007 at 01:06 - 24

Devs should focus less on whats too powerful and focus on fixing the skills that dont work. That PvP can't come up with an incorporated counter to overused builds only tells me that the metagame is stale.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grolubao

Hi all!
I've always been a core PvE player.. Recently I've been playing competitive GvG.. I'm totally tired of people playing the same builds over and over again.
.. go on with the nerfs!

I will translate:

"Hi all.
I'm new to GvG and I'm totaly tired of getting owned by the same build over and over again because I don't know how to counter it. Plz go on with the nerfs!"

Age

Hall Hero

Join Date: Jul 2005

California Canada/BC

STG Administrator

Mo/

10 Jan 2007 at 01:43 - 25

The only problem with this is once you get 1 or 2 good builds going go pvp it is already out of date much like todays PCs.You buy a PC today and is not as much as what you paid for it once you get it home as it is out of date.You stat working on a good build now by the time the balanceing is done it is out of date.The sole reason skills get balanced is because of thier use in pvp.there are some that were balanced(nerfed) in pve because of we all know why.

I would do some GvG with MY Guild but it is not easy recruiting these days as to leavers and some that really aren't interested in your guild and they don't give your guild a chance.They start thier own and have no idea about the game or mechanics behind it.

SAQ

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2006

Melbourne/Taipei

Radicals Against Tyrants

N/

10 Jan 2007 at 01:48 - 26

You are correct on why they skill balance BUT... don't link skill balance with Nerf (Skill balance != Nerf). Otherwise, I welcome skill balance as a new way to play builds and the game as a whole. Brings up new builds and kills old one! Which is great and refreshing!!

Phades

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

10 Jan 2007 at 01:50 - 27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redfeather1975

In Everquest 2 the developers played a smart move.

We have a description window of the spell with a little checkbox in it.
When you check the box the skill description changes from the PVE skills effects to the PVP skills effects.
That's right! They had two skill effects, including cost, recharge, damage, ect for both PVE and PVP.

Maybe Anet should try to implement that idea at some point in the future?
It was a very smart move in EQ2.

The difference in scaling between a PC and npc in EQ2 is so absurdly different, the comparison is not very valid. You do not fight anything in GW that is individually tougher than the PC on a exponential level, then expect the same skills tailored to fight those exponentially tougher opponents to be fair against other players. Basically the design team at SoE looked at the "play at pvp" approach FFXI did and put a twist on it, because in that game you have the same kind of scaling, but you do not have the toggle. You could also argue at their total failure for balance in EQ1 driving that decision as well, but the parity between EQ2 and FFXI is rather close to be considered a conincendence in some areas.

The difference is, you arent getting instant killed by single opponents (or nearly instant) in GW, while it is a very real possibility in other online games like EQ2. There are combinations in GW that will single kill a target in a short timeframe, but never in 1 hit from 1 character (unless of course its enchantment removal vs vengence unyielding or a 55 hp character vs blood, but those are rather absurd situations to begin with).

Yabba

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2005

10 Jan 2007 at 02:18 - 28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wildi

Devs should focus less on whats too powerful and focus on fixing the skills that dont work. That PvP can't come up with an incorporated counter to overused builds only tells me that the metagame is stale.

I will translate:

"Hi all.
I'm new to GvG and I'm totaly tired of getting owned by the same build over and over again because I don't know how to counter it. Plz go on with the nerfs!"

Actually it doesn`t need any translation . It IS boring as hell facing the same 2 builds in about 95% of all gvg matches (in our guilds case: eurospike and dt-splitbuild).

Our guild (Ultio Atrox [uAx]) currently has more wins than ever before and that`s only because our build is very strong vs eurospike and due to the fact that about 70% of our matches are against guilds that play this build.

Nevertheless we are all waiting for the skill update and we want it as soon as possible -hoping anet will be able to get the pvp balance back in track.
Facing the same 2 builds every day in gvg after gvg after gvg really takes the fun out of it even if you win most of the matches.

I want to see more variety in gvg, more viable builds and get surprised by the builds we have to fight.

ATM it`s more like: "Oh, Burning/Jade Isle must be eurospike" and "Ok, Frozen Isle - bet it`s dt-split"

Some of our members don`t gvg at all anymore until skill update and the tournaments are released.

Curse You

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Apr 2006

South Pole

The Magus Order

N/Mo

10 Jan 2007 at 02:22 - 29

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

SoA outclassing every other prot spell and making 55/135 invcimonks easier than ever is bad for PvE too.

I fail to see how having a solo build that can tank unlimited numbers of enemies is overpowering to PvE? Sure it may seem rediculous, but it's no like the monsters are getting annoyed, seeing how they're the only ones that have to deal with it.

And don't give me any of that "farmers drive up prices" bs. Farmers actually cause prices to be lower, because otherwise, there would be a much smaller supply.

I think many of you fail to see that skill changes help to keep the game from being; "use these 8 skills and you can kill anything." So they changed your favourite build. Make a new one, or fix your build so that it works again.
Personally, I have been changing my necromancers build every once in a while. Not because the skills get changed, but because I decide to try a new combination. And so far, most of my changes have been for the better.

B Ephekt

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Feb 2006

Team Crystalline [TC]

Mo/

10 Jan 2007 at 02:42 - 30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azagoth

I too don't understand why just because a few numptys in PvP moan about a skill being 'overpowered' we who play PvE have to suffer the nerfbat (or skill balancing as it's called). I mean, what's the use in having a PvE element if all they do is nerf useful PvE skills to pander to the moanings of a few PvP players?

Simple fact is, if you don't like a skill in PvP then don't use it or just learn to live with it.

It's unfortunate that you don't understand how this game works. However, I shouldn't have to suffer for it. When I win I want to have a genuine feeling that I outplayed my opponent, and similarly, when I lose I want to know that the other team outplayed mine, not won by abusing some broken skills.

Perhaps you should consider "living with it" before you suggest that others do so.

oinkers

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Dec 2006

10 Jan 2007 at 05:29 - 31

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

Perhaps you should consider "living with it" before you suggest that others do so.

A bit rich considering you how consistently expect PvE players to "learn to adapt" instead of putting the responsiblity on the PvP side of things. I really dont see why you should treat PvE any less than you would PvP.

Perhaps YOU should first consider how to adapt in PvP before agreeing that nerfing the skill in PvE is a good idea. How's about that for putting the boot on the other foot?

B Ephekt

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Feb 2006

Team Crystalline [TC]

Mo/

10 Jan 2007 at 05:44 - 32

Expecting players to adapt to overpowered skills is stupid, expecting players to adapt when skills get balanced is quite reasonable. If this game is to continue to foster a competitive environment where player skill actually matters, then balance is needed.

The Ernada

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Nov 2006

10 Jan 2007 at 05:48 - 33

Bottomline is that complaining about nerfed skills in PVE is silly. PVE is easy and almost any old skill will work well against them because players are supposed to be thinking intelligent beings against a predictable, inflexible A.I. opponent.

It's far far far far easier to adapt in PVE given any skills overpowered or underpowered. It's not the case in PVP where your opponents are actual thinking human beings that can take advantage of overpowered skills. So stop complaining about skills being nerfed in PVE.

Savio

Teenager with attitude

Join Date: Jul 2005

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

10 Jan 2007 at 05:52 - 34

Quote:

Originally Posted by oinkers

A bit rich considering you how consistently expect PvE players to "learn to adapt" instead of putting the responsiblity on the PvP side of things. I really dont see why you should treat PvE any less than you would PvP.

Perhaps YOU should first consider how to adapt in PvP before agreeing that nerfing the skill in PvE is a good idea. How's about that for putting the boot on the other foot?

Most PvE players don't adapt because it doesn't really change their gameplay. In the end, you can kill almost everything with half-assed builds. The relative strengths of skills is only important to the powergamers, or more accurately the farmers, which is a significantly smaller portion of the PvE community. They want to use the best skills to farm, which is usually also the overpowered skills. If it's only overpowered in PvE, Arenanet doesn't care. If it's also overpowered in PvP or is extremely overpowered in PvE, Arenanet nerfs it, in which case farmers whine for a little bit before jumping onto the next overpowered farming build. (After the nerfing of Prot Bond, it took literally minutes for people to switch to Prot Spirit. The farmers complaining on the forums were the ones who hadn't gotten the memo.)

PvP doesn't have the option to adapt to overpowered skills when it becomes an "either you play this build or you play to counter it" situation. Metagames revolving around a handful of imbalanced skills aren't fun. When Arenanet has to decide between continual boredom to most players in PvP or a temporary frustration to some players in PvE, there's not much of a debate.

explodemyheart

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Sep 2005

Indiana

Gui1d War스 P01ic트 [Pr으]

Mo/

10 Jan 2007 at 06:31 - 35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wildi

"Hi all.
I'm new to GvG and I'm totaly tired of getting owned by the same build over and over again because I don't know how to counter it. Plz go on with the nerfs!"

I wonder, do you play PvP at all? RA doesn't count.

Just because people want gameplay fixed so that you don't run into the same build with different people 25 times in a row doesn't mean that they can't beat it. I, and the people that I play with, know full well how to beat, for example, searing flames. We do it flawlessly all the time. The problem is that it's boring as hell. As much as I like winning, faction, and fame, I'm not about to be excited that I'm pwning a bunch of eles in the face for the 15 millionth time because they suck far, far too much to come up with a better build.

HolyHawk

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2006

lf guild~

Me/A

10 Jan 2007 at 06:41 - 36

It's been almost 3 months since the new skills have been up, right? It's about time they release the final season balance, because we already see what is too much and what is still nothing in competitive play. I fail to see why people think pvp changes will kill pve, but I am glad the topic poster could see why they are needed in pvp. Gosh, I am also tired of eurospike, and if adapting is just be prepared for it, it's just wrong. Keep just in mind that we have some skills in mind that everyone is complaining/pointing out. After the changes are hopefully made, there will come another skills on the table that people gave no attention to. Skill changes and skill balances (I'm not sure if the first can be the last) serve to keep the game fresh and prevent it to turn into a one way win. I have yet to see what HA will become, but I am loving just the fact that it is changing.

Div

I like yumy food!

Join Date: Jan 2006

Where I can eat yumy food

Dead Alley [dR]

Mo/R

10 Jan 2007 at 06:54 - 37

Hey noobs that think all anet does is nerf your little pve skills, here's news for you:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...98#post2427498

Paperfly

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2006

10 Jan 2007 at 08:21 - 39

As a primary PvE player who dabbles in PvP, every move to separate the two reduces my overall enjoyment of the game.

I'm pretty peeved about the PvE-only skills, actually. The fact that ANet doesn't trust their own system enough to make Rebirth Signet an ordinary skill (with the same drawbacks as the original Rebirth, say) is downright saddening.

(And, incidentally, I greatly appreciate skill balancing as it affects PvE. In the long term, it's only increased my enjoyment of the game. Plus hey, at worst it has positive effects on the economy...)

leprekan

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2005

Posers and Wannabes [nubs]

W/E

10 Jan 2007 at 09:18 - 40

Skill balance to balance the game is one thing. The nerfs to skills that are not even used in PvP is another story. Protective bond still pisses me off. Anets war on the "Chinese farmer" is where MANY of the nerfs come from not in the interest of a level PvP playing field.

FoxBat

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Apr 2006

Amazon Basin [AB]

Mo/Me

10 Jan 2007 at 21:07 - 41

Quote:

Originally Posted by leprekan

Skill balance to balance the game is one thing. The nerfs to skills that are not even used in PvP is another story. Protective bond still pisses me off. Anets war on the "Chinese farmer" is where MANY of the nerfs come from not in the interest of a level PvP playing field.

Skill nerfs to the chinese farmer bots (which are much rarer than PvP nerfs if you care to look. Can you name any skill changes besides spirit and protective bond?) just mean nerfs to mindless, invincible farm builds. That's a good thing.

They should just mod Prot Spirit in a somewhat similar way to Spirit Bond and end this 55/135 madness once and for all. It's absurd how this skill makes the low health totals from tons of sup runes an advantage rather than the disadvantage it's supposed to be, and artificially inflates the price of runes on the market. People will come up with new near-invinicibuilds sure, but it will be with skills that were *designed* for tanking, which prot spirit isn't.

P.S. Paperfly, a major reason the PvE-only skills are PvE-only is because their effectiveness depend on titles, and PvE ones at that. This is a way for ANet to add progression to the game past lvl 20.