oh noes, another bow question D:

pingu666

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2006

guildhall

[DETH]

well, 3
first off, the damage bow, ive got a perfect 5/1 vamparic mod, and marksmanship +1 20% mod , mostly intend to use these for spamming barrage, and other spamish stuff as a r/mo, or as a r/w with flail, which would be the best bow type to go for?

shortbow is consistant, recursive is quite nice, flatbow is ok, but the miss rate and high arc and long flight time arent so great. i use a zealous one already for barrage hornbow might be the joker, lower rof but 10%AP might swing it. im intending for this tobe my "nuking" bow, as i already have various bows and mods (+al and hp etc)

i also have a daze/silence lengthing string, so im thinking that would be sweet for a interupt build?, broad head arrow and concusion shot are expensive, so a recursive or shortbow with +5energy would be ideal?

finaly my other ranger is a trapper/beastmaster, would the wintergreen bow be the best (apart from longbow for pulling ) for someone who will only invest pocket change into marksmanship (15^50 inscription, or 5e) with some extra armour and some random string i got spare like fire, AP. i dont think the zealous or the vamparic is worth it as ill just be attacking 1 foe, and with the chances to miss etc, not really worth it..

XvArchonvX

XvArchonvX

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2005

R/

I would suggest putting the Vamp mod on a flatbow and using it with builds that have Fav Winds or Read the Wind in them (such as most barrage builds).

A Marksmanship +1 20% grip will only give you about +1 damage on one of every 5 attack skills. While this is the only bow grip that can add to your damage output, the extra damage added is next to nothing (even less than a Sundering String).

The silencing string is probably best on a recurve or shortbow to use with any builds that use BHA or Concussion Shot.

As for choice in bows, shortbows are generally best used in a few builds that really make use of them (i.e. Choking Gas + Practiced Stance), while a recurve is usually the best choice for any interupt based build.

I also assume you mean that you have a Candy Cane bow and not a Wintergreen Bow since the latter was only granted to those who won the Wintersday Tournament if I'm not mistaken. In this case, the CC Bow acts as a recurve and is not as good as a long/flat for pulling, but is a fine choice for any build that uses no marksmanship.

Hope that helps.

Amy Awien

Amy Awien

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2006

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by pingu666
... only invest pocket change into marksmanship ... and with the chances to miss ... Marksmanship does not affect your chance-to-hit (or miss). A vampiric string would give some reliable amount of damage, without points in marks you will get next to nothing from basic bowdamage.

Thom Bangalter

Thom Bangalter

Grindin'

Join Date: Dec 2005

MO

E/Mo

Some math Ensign did says hornbow with an IAS gets the most out of your barrage, and history always seems to prove Ensign right.

Generally speaking, Shortbow and Recurve are the two 'best' bows, since shortbows have the quickest refire rate and recurve has the lowest arc/shortest arrow flight time. I generally go with +5 energy on all my recurves as I'm generally playing builds that don't require my DPS from skills/autoattacking to be all that high.

Dr Strangelove

Dr Strangelove

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Dec 2005

Wasting away again in Margaritaville

[HOTR]

Quote:
Originally Posted by pingu666
well, 3
first off, the damage bow, ive got a perfect 5/1 vamparic mod, and marksmanship +1 20% mod , mostly intend to use these for spamming barrage, and other spamish stuff as a r/mo, or as a r/w with flail, which would be the best bow type to go for?

shortbow is consistant, recursive is quite nice, flatbow is ok, but the miss rate and high arc and long flight time arent so great. i use a zealous one already for barrage hornbow might be the joker, lower rof but 10%AP might swing it. im intending for this tobe my "nuking" bow, as i already have various bows and mods (+al and hp etc)

i also have a daze/silence lengthing string, so im thinking that would be sweet for a interupt build?, broad head arrow and concusion shot are expensive, so a recursive or shortbow with +5energy would be ideal?

finaly my other ranger is a trapper/beastmaster, would the wintergreen bow be the best (apart from longbow for pulling ) for someone who will only invest pocket change into marksmanship (15^50 inscription, or 5e) with some extra armour and some random string i got spare like fire, AP. i dont think the zealous or the vamparic is worth it as ill just be attacking 1 foe, and with the chances to miss etc, not really worth it.. For barrage, I prefer a recurve or a flatbow. Yes, a hornbow does squeeze out that extra 4ish damage per hit, but it loses out on arrow speed and range, making it not quite as attractive for interrupting or staying out of the fray. Also, for PvE, a hornbow just doesn't find as many uses as other types, and ends up wasting inventory space most of the time.

I wouldn't really bother with a 20% +1 mod. No matter how far you stay back and how good your frontline guys are, you're going to take damage. Better to be able to shrug that off instead of dealing 1 extra damage per hit.

I have a 15 over 50 silencing recurve for dazing builds. I suppose a +5 energy would be helpful since you're relying on others to do damage, but I'm lazy and uncreative, so meh.

I used to use a shortbow most of the time, but it's fairly important to be able to attack from further away, for hitting things on or from cliffs, or being able to interrupt the backline caster without running into a big mob. A flatbow with rtw or fav winds will outperform a shortbow in almost every case. Besides, monsters don't dodge the arrows much.

For a beastmaster, I hear that a staff works well and allows you to control your pet better, but I suck at that, so I use a zealous flatbow. Helps keep up the energy and sends the pet in from a long way away. Give both a try and see which works for you.

I would suggest a +20 energy staff as well, for trapping, touchies, and beastmastery. You'll get more mileage out of it than you'd think.

pingu666

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2006

guildhall

[DETH]

yeah, ive got a mindclouder on him , while marksmanship doesnt effect miss chance, but u get misses from stances, them running, blind, hexes etc, for what it would give me from vamp/zeal its not worth it imo, as i doubt id really benifit from it...

currently i have a zealous flatbow of defense, plus others with hp/al, so im covered for that

i think the marksmanship +1 will give +1 from the attack skill bonus damage, +x due to the extra marksmanship attribute, and a increased chance of a critical

anyways off to bed for me, and thanks for the replies

Silk Weaver

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jun 2006

Hong Kong

Romantically Lethal [RoLe]

R/Mo

Candy Cane bows are short, I believe.

pingu666

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2006

guildhall

[DETH]

ps, quick test on my wammo with wild blow and a axe, from 14>15 is worth 2-3 extra damage. curiously i always got the same number with wildblow and a +1 axe mastery 19% grip

Amy Awien

Amy Awien

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2006

R/

I think you always get a critical hit with Wild Blow and a critical hit always yields the same damage (roughly 2x max) against one target. It's a great way to test, btw.

Jetdoc

Jetdoc

Hell's Protector

Join Date: Jul 2005

The Eyes of Texas [BEVO]

D/A

Quote:
Originally Posted by XvArchonvX
I also assume you mean that you have a Candy Cane bow and not a Wintergreen Bow since the latter was only granted to those who won the Wintersday Tournament if I'm not mistaken. In this case, the CC Bow acts as a recurve and is not as good as a long/flat for pulling, but is a fine choice for any build that uses no marksmanship. Both the Wintergreen and Normal Candy Cane Bows are short bows, not recurve bows. I've tested both of them on the targets in the isles.

Cathode_Reborn

Cathode_Reborn

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by pingu666
ps, quick test on my wammo with wild blow and a axe, from 14>15 is worth 2-3 extra damage. curiously i always got the same number with wildblow and a +1 axe mastery 19% grip Wild Blow is an unlinked skill. Your axe mastery won't make it do any more damage. You can easily test the +1 axe mastery with Decapitate since it always makes a crit hit

+1 mods suck so much, they really need a buff =/ I don't even use those on my MM.

Random Dude

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Aug 2006

recurve bow is ideal for interupting since it has the least flight time

jacen110091

jacen110091

Academy Page

Join Date: Oct 2006

The Eightfold Way [TEW]

E/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by XvArchonvX
I would suggest putting the Vamp mod on a flatbow and using it with builds that have Fav Winds or Read the Wind in them (such as most barrage builds). Why would you put Read The Winds on a barrage build?
Barrage removes all preps, right?

____________

anyway I have a question too,
I'm gonna be starting a variant of the popular Holy Barrage build soon -

Judge's Insight
Vigorous Spirit (cover enchant)
Barrage
Penetrating Attack
Savage Shot
Troll Unguent
Storm Chaser (or Fav Winds or Smite Hex etc...)
Whirling Defense (or a Rez skill)

So according to wiki on vamp mods, a shortbow and a flatbow give .5 life stealing per hit (2 secs) and the recurve bow gives .08 (2.4 secs) but Barrage will mean much more than one hit, right?

Right now, I'm looking at a Vampiric ____ bow of Enchanting with a +5 energy base mod (or "I have the Power" Inscription)

So based on the build I've posted above, would manner of bow would you guys recommend?

Amy Awien

Amy Awien

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2006

R/

He referred to Read the Wind in general for use with flatbows and Favorable Winds (for flatbows) when using Barrage.

The vampiric string is used more for the extra damage then for the healing. The bowgrip of enchanting looks fine but I'd choose a +15% damage inscription (+15%/-5E). Energy was never a problem with the Judge's Barrage.

XvArchonvX

XvArchonvX

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2005

R/

Energy stability with Judges Insight depends on how often you have JI up. If you have it up constantly, you will almost definately have energy problems. If you don't, then you probably have high expertise and lower than max Marks, which will lower your dps and make your damage more reliant on your enchant then your actual attacks (which is bad since enchants can get stripped easily).

Outside of FoW, however, you are probably better off with a simple Conjure build.

Amy Awien

Amy Awien

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2006

R/

Mhh, from what I remember JI is a 10E every 18~20 seconds with medium smiting and a bowgrip of enchanting. JI isn't what eats your energy. But jacen has skills from 5 attribute lines, so it might be a bit thin.

jacen110091

jacen110091

Academy Page

Join Date: Oct 2006

The Eightfold Way [TEW]

E/Mo

I've thrown in my attributes as -

Marksmanship: 12 +1 + 3
Expertise: 8 +1
Smiting: 9
WS: 5 +1

(Also, Healing Prayers 2 but like I said, Vigorous Spirit is more of a cover enchant than an actual heal-spell)

At 9 Smiting, I get 15 secs from the JI (18 secs with the 20% enchant mod)

With Druid's Armor, the +5 Energy weapon mod (and a pair of attunement runes if need be) I should have about 40-ish Energy and 3 pips of regen... Considering my basic spamming will be on Barrage only (3.2 energy at 9 Expertise) I think I'll be okay . .

(If not, I'll take Expertise to 10 (9+1) and get rid of my 2 WS skills and use HB (at 3, I'd get +4 regen for 12 secs))

Edit:
Although Storm Chaser can be a pretty effective E-Management spell under the right circumstances...

jacen110091

jacen110091

Academy Page

Join Date: Oct 2006

The Eightfold Way [TEW]

E/Mo

So what would you recommend then?

Keep into consideration that I'm not going into very heavy areas (DoA, FoW etc . .) Infact, I'll probably only go to the Ruins of the Tombs with this build at the very most... (with a party, maybe even a battery hero, I dunno)

Also, going back to my original question -

" Vampiric ____ bow of Enchanting with a +5 energy base mod "

Flat (with FW) or Recurve or Short?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter
Some math Ensign did says hornbow with an IAS gets the most out of your barrage, and history always seems to prove Ensign right.
Link?

jacen110091

jacen110091

Academy Page

Join Date: Oct 2006

The Eightfold Way [TEW]

E/Mo

For those that can't be bothered to go through the threads, here's a bit of whats being said -

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenosavel
W/ IAS (Tiger's Fury)

Shortbow -
Avg: 29.27-54.65
Crit: 77.28
DPH: 67.43
DPS: 34.93 (1 foe) to 209.62 (6 foes)

Hornbow -
Avg: 32.48-60.63
Crit: 85.74
DPH: 72.95
DPS: 36.29 (1 foe) to 217.76 (6 foes)
Quote: Originally Posted by SnipiousMax Average time to fire a barrage -

Long bow: 2.42 secs
Recurve bow: 2.40 secs
Horn Bow: 2.64 secs
Short Bow: 2.20 secs
Flat Bow: 2.15 secs Conclusion,
1) When using an attack speed-enhancer, the Hornbow is the best choice to use for a Barrage build, in every other scenario, the flat/short bow offers more barrage-hits in the same duration, increasing the overall DPS and effectiveness of the build.
2)When talking about relatively small battles (1 min or less) the hornbow *may* still be a considerable option without IAS buffs due to the 10% AP damage . .
3)Under most non-IAS situations however, the Flatbow, it seems, is a more popular choice because at aggro-range, the accuracy is not as bad as one would expect and the refire matches the shortbow (which forces one to be in the middle of the skirmish...)

____________

So as far as my question went, I suppose I'll be using a Vampiric Flatbow of Enchanting with a +5 Energy inherent mod!
(I'll be running Zelnehuln's Longbow for Aggro-Control and Uhiwi's Shortbow as my backup bow)

Now, Although I think we've far left what this thread was about . .
I was looking over my build and I have 2 questions...

Firstly, will the Expertise 9 (or 10) be enough to support my barrage-spamming and JI every 20(ish) seconds? If not, and you recommend that I do indeed up that to 13 . . how exactly would you recommend I distribute the attribute-points?

And secondly, playing in PUG and Tombs' groups... Is it a viable option for me to be running Balthazar's Spirit for E-Management?

jesh

jesh

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

San Diego, CA

Penguin Village

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by jacen110091
So what would you recommend then? Why not use Heart of Holy Flame instead of JI? Sure you miss out on the 20%AP, but won't be remotely close to your energy limit. I'm thinking skeleton slaying here, btw. JI would probably be more useful in PvP, but if you're taking Barrage {E} into PvP, .......
I would still use a 15^50 inscription or something similar.. +5 energy just makes me rawr on a weapon class. What the heck are you using a Vampiric upgrade for if you don't care about damage?

:EDIT: Never mind about the pvp thing. It's late and I can't read.

jacen110091

jacen110091

Academy Page

Join Date: Oct 2006

The Eightfold Way [TEW]

E/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by jesh
Why not use Heart of Holy Flame instead of JI? Firstly, coz of the 20% AP which would be pretty cool for lvl 20+ foes...
And secondly, coz I won't have NF till about March!!


And y'know, you're right...
I really would rather be using a 15^50 or a 15 w/enchanted mod . . but I wanna see how badly I start running out of energy and if the +5 is really useful or not . .

This is my first Ranger build, so it'll take some getting used to... I'm gonna get the collector 15^50 flatbow and . . is there a collector +5 one? Anyway, I'll see how it goes, I really would rather use the +15% dmg mod!

Sir Mad

Sir Mad

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

Moe's Pub

Pigs Can Fly [Pigs]

R/

Heart of the Holy Flame is a Mysticism spell and will do only 15 damage (30 vs skelettons) +1 second of burning when it ends - that's not much at all and IMO it's not worth the 10 energy unaffected by expertise spent, nor the 3/4 secs casting time.

EDIT - Jacen, keep in mind the IAS from Tiger's Fury in the post you've quoted was 33% - the skill was nerfed when NF came out. I don't think the math have been done for 25% IAS, yet I suspect them to give the same results than for 33% IAS with barrage. Anyway there are not many barragers still using TF.

Amy Awien

Amy Awien

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2006

R/

The point of using[wiki]Heart of Holy Flame[/wiki] is that (for 30 seconds) it turns your damage into holy damage which doubles damage against undead creatures.

Sir Mad

Sir Mad

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

Moe's Pub

Pigs Can Fly [Pigs]

R/

Oops my bad - I should wait to be fully awaken to post Thanks for clarifying that. Nice catch then jesh.

jacen110091

jacen110091

Academy Page

Join Date: Oct 2006

The Eightfold Way [TEW]

E/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Mad
EDIT - Jacen, keep in mind the IAS from Tiger's Fury in the post you've quoted was 33% - the skill was nerfed when NF came out. I don't think the math have been done for 25% IAS, yet I suspect them to give the same results than for 33% IAS with barrage. Anyway there are not many barragers still using TF.
Ah, true!
But like you said, I think the result would be similar... Using an IAS would probably allow the hornbow's time-penalty to be reduced enough that the +10% AP makes up for it...

Also, I'm not gonna be using TF
Having a high Expertise/Smiting and max Marksmanship really doesn't allow me to sustain WS to even a semi-decent level . .

And Amy Awien, the reason i'm going for JI (other than not having access to NF) is the +20% AP which is VERY useful on high-lvl mobs. Also, since no Armor (as far as I know) has any bonus against Holy Dmg, I guess thats a plus too...

Actually, can someone explain how the 20% AP works on holy dmg if its "Armor Ignoring" damage in the first place?
(I read somewhere that Armor-Ignoring Dmg will act as if your opponent has a base 60 AL, but I couldn't really find any decent arguments to support that)

SnipiousMax

SnipiousMax

Perfectly Elocuted

Join Date: Sep 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by jacen110091
Actually, can someone explain how the 20% AP works on holy dmg if its "Armor Ignoring" damage in the first place?
(I read somewhere that Armor-Ignoring Dmg will act as if your opponent has a base 60 AL, but I couldn't really find any decent arguments to support that)
Borrowed from
GuildWiki:

Skills causing holy damage (directly) ignore armor except for Lightbringers Gaze.

Weapons causing holy damage (as a result of damage type conversion due to skill effects) do not ignore armor.

Armor-Ignoring dmg deals the exact amount of damage listed in the skill description, it doesn't factor any type of armor in. Even 60 armor causes a reduction in damage of non-armor ignoring sources of damage.

Thom Bangalter

Thom Bangalter

Grindin'

Join Date: Dec 2005

MO

E/Mo

You could, of course, run flail on your barrage ranger. It'll be charged in no time, and the duration even unspecced is long enough to get the job done.

pingu666

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2006

guildhall

[DETH]

and it doesnt cost energy

i went with a vamparic shortbow of marksmanship, with 15^50 and customised

im not sure about the shortbow vs hornbow, as the static buffs (+17/8 and 5 from vamp, + whatever from spirits and other buffs) make the shortbow better..

ive got some skree wings, so im gonna go collect a +5e recursive bow for interupts and use my dazed string