Balancing Spoil Victor

lightblade

lightblade

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

The Etereal Guard

Me/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeon_Xin
Make the necro your first target, not the healer*. You'll see when he's casting SV, and have ample time to pull off, or use an interrupt skill or whatever counter you favor.
Already had people suggested to have it take 2 seconds to cast. I can see the reason in that. One second cast + 2*20/20 wand/focus, you have a good chance to make it 1/2 cast time.

One second is not ez interrupt; not for professions that's not specialized in interrupts. Also skills that have 1 or less cast time cannot be canceled, so you can't break your attack chain to interrupt others.

Winterclaw

Winterclaw

Wark!!!

Join Date: May 2005

Florida

W/

Spoil Victor is basically empathy*4 plus backfire rolled into one, with a minor drawback. So yeah, I'd say it's overpowered.


Some suggestions, if they have an asterik they are some I'd lean towards:
-Make it a 25 energy spell*
-Add a 17% hp sacrifice*
-Make it end after the first trigger*
-Make it a 2 or 3 second cast
-Double or triple the recharge time and/or reduce the duration to 3...7 seconds*
-Make it heal the hexed person if that person attacks or casts a spell on someone with more life than them. On the other side, maybe make it so that if someone deals damage to the hexed person, and the hexed person has less life, the person doing the damage will take the damage instead.*
-Limit its effects to attacking/spell casting on the targets foes (so a monk healing someone won't cause it to trigger).
-Have it disable the caster's necro spells for 10...4 seconds or have it disable all other necro spells in its skill group for 15-30 seconds.
-Have it cause -4 energy degen for the caster while the hex is active.
-Get rid of the recharge and make it recharge on moral boost only.
-Reduce the damage or limit it to a certain amount that would end the hex early.
-Have it clear the target's existing hexes or conditions and/or stop any more hexes from being cast on him while the hex is active.
-Give the hex to the caster as well as the target.
-Make the hex trigger only when attacking or casting a spell on the caster of the hex in addtion to needing the caster to have less life than the target.*
-Give it a 100% blood sacrifice.

Priest Of Sin

Priest Of Sin

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Dec 2005

Sitting upon Kerrigan's Throne.

Live For The Swarm [ZERG]

Me/N

so... you're one of the types who attacks through SS+Reckless Haste, right?

And another thought, it's an ELITE skill for a reason! It's still a fragile little hex... just thank your stars I dont' got N/Mo 55 and dump it on your sorry ass and then vamp gaze you to death.

ANd yet another thought: It's like Empathy+Backfire, but you can only hurt a foe so much. As soon as he gets to your HP, then, well, the hex is useless. It doesn't trigger, it just takes up space on your UI.

lightblade

lightblade

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

The Etereal Guard

Me/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Priest Of Sin
so... you're one of the types who attacks through SS+Reckless Haste, right?
If you don't attack through SS+Reckless Haste, you'll just get wand to death. One way or another, you can't win.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Priest Of Sin
As soon as he gets to your HP, then, well, the hex is useless. It doesn't trigger, it just takes up space on your UI.
That's only half true, you need to think of it this way.

Melee characters (Warrior, Ranger, Assassin, Dervish) does 20-100 damage every hit. Most of the time you hit you'll do around 30-50 damage. So the trial will go this way. This simple chart shows the amount of hp after you hit.

Nec|You
----------
480|480
440|380
400|380
360|280
320|280
280|280
240|180
200|180
160|80
120|80
80 | 80
40 | 0

As you can see, if SV do 100 damage, it'll always stay 1 step ahead of you.

Aeon_Xin

Banned

Join Date: Nov 2005

E/Me

"If you don't attack through SS+Reckless Haste, you'll just get wand to death. One way or another, you can't win."

Lol, Run away for a time? Death by wanding, heh, dude, it's pretty easy to dodge wands, even with no speed buffs.

If you're a warrior with 480 hp max, you're in a pretty sorry spot to begin with, ok, so you do have sup runes, but if you're smart enough to fight other people and win with a hp level/build like that, you're smart enough to not just freeze and let yourself suffer death by wanding.

SS+reckelss haste is what I use as 55 on trolls, avicara(long as there's no guiles spawned in the group), and enchanteds(They get a little tough with bowmen causing dazed, hell, sometimes they seem to use concussion right before I prot spirit and I end up dying cause of recharge time)(I think it's called concussion shot, i could be wrong)

But that's the point, it works on AI, because AI isn't as smart as people, but even still the trolls..guess what.....RUN AWAY...sometimes.

Wait, you mentioned specialized in interrupts? Other classes can do that?
Sounds overpowered to me, because my build can't do it. Someone call the nerf police.

Winterclaw

Winterclaw

Wark!!!

Join Date: May 2005

Florida

W/

The problem with spoil victor is someone can keep it on a person, virtually all the time (okay there's that one second cast time) for no net energy lost*. Okay, the warrior runs away. It's now 4v3 or worse. So you either stay back for it to wear off and hope no one dies in that time (and of course the necro can always reapply it) or you can keep fighting and get some DP. Now you could bring some hex removal, but if you aren't watching the necro and see it put on you, he might put a cover hex on you by the time you can react... and most people don't bring 2 hex removals.

*That means you'll gain back all the energy it takes to cast the spell by the time it recharges.

pharaos

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Apr 2006

N/Me

/not signed

if u r in ra take hex removal, if u r playing ha or gvg some1 else will get rid of it

lightblade

lightblade

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

The Etereal Guard

Me/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeon_Xin
Lol, Run away for a time? Death by wanding, heh, dude, it's pretty easy to dodge wands, even with no speed buffs.

If you're a warrior with 480 hp max, you're in a pretty sorry spot to begin with, ok, so you do have sup runes, but if you're smart enough to fight other people and win with a hp level/build like that, you're smart enough to not just freeze and let yourself suffer death by wanding.
Run away? That's the whole point of SV! It disables you so that you can't do anything! At this point, the nec don't need to worry about you and as soon SV recharges he can cast it on a teammate of yours. What? Both you and your other teammate ran away? Then it became 4v2 situation now, your team is doomed.

What's the point of having more HP than 480? You're just gonna make yourself suffer more from SV. Here, I'll make it 1000 for you, the warrior with both Endure and Defy pain.

Nec|You
----------
480|1000
440|900
400|800
360|700
320|600
280|500
240|400
200|300
160|200
120|100
80 | 100
40 | 0

There, you're dead.

Aeon_Xin

Banned

Join Date: Nov 2005

E/Me

[QUOTE=lightblade]Run away? That's the whole point of SV! It disables you so that you can't do anything! At this point, the nec don't need to worry about you and as soon SV recharges he can cast it on a teammate of yours. What? Both you and your other teammate ran away? Then it became 4v2 situation now, your team is doomed.
QUOTE]

SV does not disable you from running away. It does not stop you from using a hex removal, it does not stop you from using a interrupt/knockdown. It doesn't stop the 3 other people from ripping his guts out through....well you get the point(actually, you still don't get the point, and likely never will).

All this time, all 4 people are just standing idly by while the necro SV's everyone? get a freaking clue.
KILL THE NECRO FIRST!?!?!? Maybe? I don't know.

Since apparently you don't know how to remove a hex, the teams are already 4 v 3, and your "team" is screwed.



"but if you aren't watching the necro and see it put on you, he might put a cover hex on you by the time you can react"

There you go, if you aren't watching...Who's fault is that? oh yeah, the necro using SV whenyou weren't looking, how unfair, lets Ban him.

Lightblade,
Possible scenario
1. Hey, neato, I see a necro.
2. Use hex removal immediately upon noticing you get SV, if you and/or your party haven't already killed the necro.
3. You've got ample time to kill him now, do so. The best defense is a strong offense, said so yourself. If you can't do this, your offense isnt' strong enough.
4. It's done, rejoice.

Really, if a skill was overpowered, you'd have people in all arena's and gvg matches complaining about it. Not just you and a few select others saying "it stops you from doing anything" as your main argument for the first 3 million posts, or "just because you can cancel it doesn't mean it's not overpowered".

If it's as aweful as you say it is, every single non necro player would be in this forum right now backing you up. Apparently it's not, cause there's like 3-4 of you. Buck up and learn to counter, avoid, or deal with it.

Winterclaw

Winterclaw

Wark!!!

Join Date: May 2005

Florida

W/

Quote:
does not stop you from using a interrupt/knockdown.
Not all classes have, or have equipped interrupts or knockdowns. If they do, maybe they have someone else to worry about at the same time, like a SF el.


Quote:
All this time, all 4 people are just standing idly by while the necro SV's everyone? get a freaking clue. KILL THE NECRO FIRST!?!?!? Maybe? I don't know.
And his monk casts prot spirit on him and keeps him healed while you are trying to kill him. One of those people, assuming they do attack, will probably die anyways.


Quote:
Since apparently you don't know how to remove a hex, the teams are already 4 v 3, and your "team" is screwed.
Ever hear of a cover hex? And how am I supposed to constantly keep watch on the skills that everyone on the other team is using at all times? Maybe there are two necros on the other team and I can only keep a track of one of them. Maybe someone is attacking my monk and I had to switch my focus for a few seconds.


Aeon, I take it you play necro a lot and SV is one of your favorite skills to use.

lightblade

lightblade

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

The Etereal Guard

Me/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeon_Xin
There you go, if you aren't watching...Who's fault is that? oh yeah, the necro using SV whenyou weren't looking, how unfair, lets Ban him.
[skill]Holy Veil[/skill][skill]Pious Restoration[/skill] <-- The only 2 skills fast enough to get rid of SV before the cover hex comes.

Quote:
Really, if a skill was overpowered, you'd have people in all arena's and gvg matches complaining about it.
People still haven't catches this up. People will soon start using this to counter those Melandru Avatars in gvg...as Melandru Avatar's hp boost going to get punished a lot from SV. Hex removal you say? Divert Hex and Expel hex are the only 2 that can bypass cover hexes...and Divert Hex is on the list of "to be nerfed"..and Expel Hex haven't been used for ages for unknown reason.

Aeon_Xin

Banned

Join Date: Nov 2005

E/Me

You all keep asking what if this happens after I counter or before I counter?

That's all left up to random chance in a random arena, can't take the heat get out of the kitchen.

Second, I'm not here to baby sit you and talk you through every possible scenerio, skill by skill by skill for a random 4 vs 4 match.

If you have interrupt skills and chose not to use them, it's your fault.

"If they do, maybe they have someone else to worry about at the same time, like a SF el"

Well, from they way you all put it, SV is the root of all evil, and they'd better be dealing with it first?

What I do and do not play is of no concern here, but I can say that none of my characters have SV captured at all.

Other minor notes of Major worth.
Monks have all kinds of hex removals, some that remove multiple hexes.
Monks are not exclusively for healing, you can make a good offensive player with all monk skills.

It's true, you cannot go in prepared for everything, that's a given, you've got 8 skills to chose and that's it.

But, having identified a problem, SV, if people were to actually build around it, it would be easily conquered, and you wouldn't have vast numbers of people relying on SV, or the few of you complaining about it.

Take it for granted that there's going to be a necro in one of 8 people, it's a pretty good chance. Necro's have multitudes of hexes. Bring a hex removal.

All casters have a weakness in interupters. All Melee's have a weakness in Necros. Necro's have a weekness in Monks, there's all sorts of interaction in there that goes on that you need to consider, not purely What 8 skills from any combination of 2 from all the classes will deal the most damage all at once. It's not that simple.

There will always be someone better than you. It's a fact of life, and is true in PvP also. Those same people that use SV, get trampled on by other people/builds. Those builds? They get trampled by others. It's a cycle that's unavoidable.
Smart people looking to better themselves will learn, will change their play style, builds, or even change classes.

If you want to 55 PvE or even PvP, you have to stick to pretty much melee fighters, no necros, they can remove enchantments pretty easy.
55ers don't complain, they just don't do it, or they do do it and laugh.

There are thousands, or maybe millions, of 8 skill combinations you can choose from, and you're telling me, SV is unstopable?

You are wrong, period.

I'm done posting here, I've tried to help, but some people don't listen to reason. Just continue butting your head against the wall till you bleed and fall over. That's what you're doing in the game, may as well emulate that and save the rational people some headache.

Chaos Herald

Chaos Herald

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Feb 2006

always changing.

Spoil Victor is quite a powerful skill now, but the nerf requested by the OP would make it useless, and there are way too many useless elites now.
The only place I've ever seen SV is in RA, I play an SF ele alot in RA (when I'm trying to get balthazar faction to unlock stuff), and never have I been killed by an SV necro. Furthermore, I've played SV before, and I never killed someone fast enough for it to warrant a nerf. I can kill faster with DISCORD.

Anyway, my point is that SV does not need a nerf, use hex removal more.

Skye Marin

Skye Marin

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2006

The Seraphim Knights [TSK]

E/A

The official nerf is to lower the duration from 1..31 to a flat out 20 seconds.

That will do just fine.

If you find yourself hexed with Spoil Victor, then you have to deal with it. The skill alone will not kill you. You are permitted to attack or heal targets that have more health than you. Switch targets and try to minimize the damage that the hex can do to you. You are also permitted to run the other way.

Even more importantly, you're allowed to use spells on yourself without triggering the penalty. Remember that.

If you're stupid enough to attack through it, or any other hex combination (SS/Reckless, Backfire, Empathy), then you probably deserve to die.

Teger

Teger

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Oct 2006

LLJK

A/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterclaw
Spoil Victor is basically empathy*4 plus backfire rolled into one, with a minor drawback. So yeah, I'd say it's overpowered.


Some suggestions, if they have an asterik they are some I'd lean towards:
-Make it a 25 energy spell*
-Add a 17% hp sacrifice*
-Make it end after the first trigger*
-Make it a 2 or 3 second cast
-Double or triple the recharge time and/or reduce the duration to 3...7 seconds*
-Make it heal the hexed person if that person attacks or casts a spell on someone with more life than them. On the other side, maybe make it so that if someone deals damage to the hexed person, and the hexed person has less life, the person doing the damage will take the damage instead.*
-Limit its effects to attacking/spell casting on the targets foes (so a monk healing someone won't cause it to trigger).
-Have it disable the caster's necro spells for 10...4 seconds or have it disable all other necro spells in its skill group for 15-30 seconds.
-Have it cause -4 energy degen for the caster while the hex is active.
-Get rid of the recharge and make it recharge on moral boost only.
-Reduce the damage or limit it to a certain amount that would end the hex early.
-Have it clear the target's existing hexes or conditions and/or stop any more hexes from being cast on him while the hex is active.
-Give the hex to the caster as well as the target.
-Make the hex trigger only when attacking or casting a spell on the caster of the hex in addtion to needing the caster to have less life than the target.*
-Give it a 100% blood sacrifice.
that right there...is genious...

Make it damage whoever has more hp, either the hexed person, or the person doing damage to the hexed person. It would be a lot more like the "original" dark bond (which was in their first set of screenshots released), which was "If you take damage, target foe takes that damage as well. If target foe takes damage, you take that damage as well", except, in this case...it would be much more killer.

/signed for quoted suggestion

Div

Div

I like yumy food!

Join Date: Jan 2006

Where I can eat yumy food

Dead Alley [dR]

Mo/R

Quote:
Originally Posted by lightblade
NOT by reducing it's damage
NOT by reducing it's duration

BUT, add an ending condition to it..something that goes like this

Spoil Victor
Elite Hex Spell. (...) This Hex end when target foe hit a foe that have more health.
Yes, let's just make another elite skill completely useless, since all you have to do is look for the melandru's dervish and hit it once for the hex to be gone. Please think before posting...

ainkami

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jan 2007

there is a very simple skill called "Power Return". requires no investment in fast cast. 5 Energy only, 0.25 cast time, 5 sec recharge. Easiest way to disable Spoil Victor. On a competent player, you can shutdown SV + one additional spell on the necro. OMG one nonelite > elite & another nonelite.

Damn it, NERF NERF NERF Power Return. But wait, too many newbies don't bring an interrupt in RA. Maybe BUFF BUFF BUFF intelligence on RA players?

Mesmer in Need

Mesmer in Need

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2006

[ToA]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teger
that right there...is genious...

Make it damage whoever has more hp, either the hexed person, or the person doing damage to the hexed person. It would be a lot more like the "original" dark bond (which was in their first set of screenshots released), which was "If you take damage, target foe takes that damage as well. If target foe takes damage, you take that damage as well", except, in this case...it would be much more killer.

/signed for quoted suggestion
*cough* just like grenths balance *cough*
if it worked like that, it would be great.

lightblade

lightblade

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

The Etereal Guard

Me/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by ainkami
there is a very simple skill called "Power Return". requires no investment in fast cast. 5 Energy only, 0.25 cast time, 5 sec recharge. Easiest way to disable Spoil Victor. On a competent player, you can shutdown SV + one additional spell on the necro. OMG one nonelite > elite & another nonelite.

Damn it, NERF NERF NERF Power Return. But wait, too many newbies don't bring an interrupt in RA. Maybe BUFF BUFF BUFF intelligence on RA players?
This is where equipment kicks in. The 20/20 wand/focus combo. Gives you...
36% chance to have at least one half cast time trigger and
36% chance to have at least one half recharge trigger...

You have less than 64% chance to successfully interrupt it. Even if you do interrupt it, another 36% chance it'll recharge at the rate same as Power Return.

And I haven't add in all the possibilities with skills preventing interrupts...but thats irrelevent to SV, so I'll skip..

jayce

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Aug 2005

N/

ok, i have read quite a bit about this skill in this thread. as a Necromancer myself, this skill is not, i repeat, NOT overpowered. this skill is not used to kill anyone other than an NPC. its used to keep pressure on people, mainly melee class. as you all know, this hex can be removed. and almost everyone believes that this skill puts entirely too much pressure on monks to either heal through SV or remove it. if you are not an NPC, and you attack or cast while hexed with this skill, then its no one else's fault but your own. you have but three options when hexed with SV.

1. go sit in the time-out corner for the next 25...35 seconds.
2. wait until someone else removes SV from you.
3. remove SV yourself.

there is a 4th option, but i think you know what will happen if you do it. instead of complaining about this skill, i think people should start bringing hex removers, and i don't mean just monks either. i mean warriors, assassin, elementals, everyone. if it means changing your build to do so, then so be it.

to conclude, just so everyone knows that i can be considerate of others, mainly people complaining about SV, the only "nerf" to me if there should be one would involve moving SV to the Soul Reaping Attribute. at least if there, you may not see the full potential of this skill.

davdaniel

Banned

Join Date: Jan 2007

A/E

Quote:
Originally Posted by lightblade
Already had people suggested to have it take 2 seconds to cast. I can see the reason in that. One second cast + 2*20/20 wand/focus, you have a good chance to make it 1/2 cast time.

One second is not ez interrupt; not for professions that's not specialized in interrupts. Also skills that have 1 or less cast time cannot be canceled, so you can't break your attack chain to interrupt others.
Mystic regeneration (1/4 sec casting time) is can be interrupted too (I mean with ranger), just u need good timing. Its really possible, just u need some experience about casters timing.

Arcane De Farad

Arcane De Farad

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Sep 2005

Alea Iacta Est

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos Herald
Spoil Victor is quite a powerful skill now, but the nerf requested by the OP would make it useless, and there are way too many useless elites now.
The only place I've ever seen SV is in RA, I play an SF ele alot in RA (when I'm trying to get balthazar faction to unlock stuff), and never have I been killed by an SV necro. Furthermore, I've played SV before, and I never killed someone fast enough for it to warrant a nerf. I can kill faster with DISCORD.

Anyway, my point is that SV does not need a nerf, use hex removal more.
Yep, and it will be useless like Feast of Corruption now... .

Emik

Emik

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Nov 2005

Belgium

[FaRM] Farm For The Win

N/

Quote:
Originally Posted by davdaniel
Mystic regeneration (1/4 sec casting time) is can be interrupted too (I mean with ranger), just u need good timing. Its really possible, just u need some experience about casters timing.
Not even that... Just cast [skill]Guilt[/skill] on the SV spamming necro and he's out of theloop for some time.
All this boohoo, i'm getting killed by SV nonsense is too ridiculous for words.

Let me ask you one thing lightblade... what profession are we talking about here?

Arcane De Farad

Arcane De Farad

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Sep 2005

Alea Iacta Est

R/

Diversion is really, really bad mesmer skill . Almost killed us in HA today... My poor-old-word of healing was shuted down . Dwaynas Kiss FTW !

Emik

Emik

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Nov 2005

Belgium

[FaRM] Farm For The Win

N/

Where did you see Diversion?

It's [skill]Guilt[/skill] not [skill]Diversion[/skill]

Aeon_Xin

Banned

Join Date: Nov 2005

E/Me

Glad to see alot more people coming in here to post that SV is a pain but not overpowered, almost started to doubt myself. I've been wrong before, once, back in '57

Still laughing at the fact that no reasonable explanation of why it's overpowered has surfaced.

Kratos Angel

Kratos Angel

Academy Page

Join Date: Dec 2005

France

Me/

Shame doesn't work on SV, guilty does.

Emik

Emik

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Nov 2005

Belgium

[FaRM] Farm For The Win

N/

You're right... I always seem to mix those two up.
Well you understood what i meant so

lightblade

lightblade

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

The Etereal Guard

Me/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emik
Not even that... Just cast [skill]Guilt[/skill] on the SV spamming necro and he's out of theloop for some time.
All this boohoo, i'm getting killed by SV nonsense is too ridiculous for words.

Let me ask you one thing lightblade... what profession are we talking about here?
Guilt have 2 second cast time, so it's more likely you'll be interrupted before you get to interrupt the Nec. Also, Guild have 30 seconds recharge, which still leaves time for SV to cast.

We're talking about a 4v4 situation that have one team w/ a SV nec and the other team doesn't. The teams may or may not have a monk with them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davdaniel
Mystic regeneration (1/4 sec casting time) is can be interrupted too (I mean with ranger), just u need good timing. Its really possible, just u need some experience about casters timing.
That's caused by either continuous cast or continuious interrupt...it's like how Grasping Darkness in UW can interrupt 1/4 cast Protective Spirit.

Nightwind Of Dwayna

Nightwind Of Dwayna

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Sep 2005

Ye Shall Be As [Gods]

Mo/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeon_Xin
If it's as aweful as you say it is, every single non necro player would be in this forum right now backing you up. Apparently it's not, cause there's like 3-4 of you. Buck up and learn to counter, avoid, or deal with it.
I had to bump this thread as soon as I read this. I guess I didn't know it was here. You've asked for proof that it's overpowered? Here you go, all stats with 16's in relevant attributes:

Empathy: 10 Energy, 2 second cast, 10 second recharge. Does 47 damage per attack, granted it's unconditional damage. Lasts 16 seconds.

Backfire: 15 Energy, 3 second cast, 20 second recharge. Does 147 damage per cast, granted it's unditional damage. Lasts 10 seconds.

SV: 10 Energy, 1 second cast, 10 second recharge. Does 105 Damage per cast or attack, lasts 33 seconds, for crying out loud.

Many of the pro-SV responses in this thread have suggested interrupting/avoiding/countering. The very best post I've read pointed out yet again, for the umpteenth time in these forums, that just because something can be countered doesn't mean it's not overpowered.

Let's assume, just for a second, that you're a monk, like I frequently am. I do not go Mo/R or Mo/Me so I can interrupt. It's enough of a challenge to just manage my energy while avoiding the metagame melee train. My point here is, as I really am sure you're aware, there are other things going on other than just trying to deal with the SV necro. So, I'm kiting like crazy while attempting to avoid knockdowns, and I see SV pop on me. Everybody who's pointing out hex removal, pay attention - It is about to be covered by Parasitic Bond within one (1) second!! One cannot use Remove Hex, it takes two seconds to cast and seven to recharge. The observent necro already has PB (or Life Siphon, also part of the SV build) back covering the SV within one second after I remove it with RH. Other hex removal skills that will not work in this scenario include: "Elite" Withdraw Hexes (due to the recharge condition and ridonkulous energy cost), Convert Hexes (again, recharge), Deny Hexes (say it with me, recharge), "Elite" Empathic Removal (recharge), Holy Veil (recharge), and the list goes on.

In fact, there is one (maybe there are two) Monk hex-removal skills that can effectively counter SV: "Elite" Divert Hexes with a case to be made for Signet of Removal. The multiple-removal of DH makes it the only real answer albeit the 10 energy cost, while SoR works occasionally because the necro is usually trying to spam it around to at least two party members. How many monks carry these two skills? I am laughed at when I do, even if it keeps the party alive a little longer.

My final point, and I would challenge anyone who frequently plays Monk to dispute this: Damage output in general is increasing faster than monk abilities to mitigate damage. Add to this the fact that you're on your butt as often as you're on two feet thanks to RaO and Assassins as a whole, and you see a problem developing. My ultimate solution is not to nerf SV; I would prefer to see a few of the monk hex removals buffed to where they can actually compete. But I certainly would appreciate upping the recharge of SV to about 15 seconds. This is not unreasonable - it lasts 33 seconds, for crying out loud. It would simply limit the ability of the necro to spam (and cover) it all around your party. It is also a split of the difference between Empathy and Backfire insofar as recharge is concerned.

Either way, I don't much mind. I am certainly up to a challenge. I Monk because I like the pressure. But I am experienced enough at this game (played since Prophecies release) to tell you for certain that this skill is far too powerful given all the other things one must deal with in the metagame. Especially if it's on three party members at once, and you're running anything other than a Divert Hexes monk.

/signed in support of Lightblade, although my arguement differs a bit from his.

The Hand Of Death

The Hand Of Death

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Oct 2005

Cavalon

The Last Pirates (SaVY)

N/

Quote:
Originally Posted by lishi
the stupid thing on this hex is when a monk try to protect or heal someone with less heath then him he take huge damage -_-
That would be the point of the hex... to give monks a hard time by damaging them when they heal.

Now there are several solutions to countering this hex and anyone with half a brain can notice these.

A. Hex removal as said before
B. If you are one of those echo mending wammos out there and keep getting damage by this hex and are like "OMG WHAT A NOOB!!! HOW DO I KEEP GETTING DMGED, I AM THE 1337s, HOW CAN THIS BE!!!', there is a simple solution, stop attacking. What a revalation that was, spoil victor is a conditional ELITE hex, it is meant to be strong, but since it is conditional then the player with the hex on them has the choice of activating the effect of the hex or not.
C. Hex breaker!!!
D. Use it yourself and then you shouldn't piss about it.

Coloneh

Coloneh

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Nov 2006

D/W

Nightwind, you math about how it is unbalanced dosnt really hold up since you are comparing an elite to two non elites and not even counting that it has a conditional trigger. I think its better to compare to ss:16 in either attribute.

SS: For 21 seconds, whenever target foe attacks or uses a skill, Spiteful Spirit deals 37 shadow damage to that foe and all adjacent foes.

SV: For 33 seconds, whenever target foe attacks or casts a Spell on a creature with less Health, that foe loses 105 Health.


Now, unless you have absolutly lost your brain, SS should be hitting AT LEAST 2 people so its about 74 damage at its lowest, and that triggers on every attck/skill

Spoil victor goes for 105 damage, but it can only hit one target, and only hits on attack/spell, and most importantly you need to be targeting someone with less health than you.

so basic stats are 74 damage minimum vs 105 damage maximum and unconditional damage vs conditional damage.

Its really not that unbalanced,maybe you could shave off a little damage, lowered to around 90.

jayce

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Aug 2005

N/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightwind Of Dwayna
How many monks carry these two skills? I am laughed at when I do, even if it keeps the party alive a little longer.
the next time they laugh at you, then why dont you tell them to bring their own --- hex remover.

Emik

Emik

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Nov 2005

Belgium

[FaRM] Farm For The Win

N/

Cover Hex? Ah wait: [skill]Expel Hexes[/skill] comes to mind.

Comparing SV with either Empathy or Backfire is out of the question.
SV is an elite.
In the test weekend the duration was shortened which in it's own wasn't that bad actually.
Still it's not overpowered.

NeHoMaR

NeHoMaR

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

A Warrior, Assassin, etc., hexed with Spoil Victor, the only he/she could do is wait 33 seconds doing nothing. Hex removal are NOT available all the time, monk(s) could be dead, or hex removal recharging or diverted. With SS or Empathy you could still attack and kill someone, even win a battle being the last alive, hexed with Spoil Victor you must /resign.

Aeon_Xin

Banned

Join Date: Nov 2005

E/Me

If someone uses a "cover hex" after they Use SV, good for them, that has nothing to do with the power of any given skill, as well as random circumstances.

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Divert_Hexes
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Convert_Hexes
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Purge_Signet
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Withdraw_Hexes
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Contemplation_of_Purity


http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Holy_Veil
While not multiple removal, it creates a situation where an immediate cancelation can happen.

My main argument, is that it's complained about in pertaining to a Random arena and that's why it's invalidated.

There are several builds that will sometimes pwn in the same circumstance.

A 55 could potentially rule, with no teamates or all teamates dead.

RA, partially nullifys, or atleast can sometimes, nullify this metagame everyone keeps referring to.

By your arguments, any build that can soloPvE, neutralize a given class/build, or become invincible against a class/build is overpowered, and deserve a nerf.

Any Ranger that specializes in interrupts, could own any caster given the right circumstances, but no one in here is begging for them to be nerfed.

By nature of the random arena, people are going to get completely owned once in a while, and nerfing SV down isn't going to solve that. If SV is the only thing holding warriors back in RA, then hell, it's a good thing it's there.

Lightblade stated himself, he's going along the theory that the best defense is a good offense, and he's upset that it backfires? He really doesn't get what GW is built around, variety. Adaptation, countering, anyone who expects to win all the time even in a normal arena is a bit daft, not to mention a random arena.

If you can't take getting owned once in a while, maybe you shouldn't PvP, or atleast not do RA, because pwnage can't be avoided all the time. If you want comfy/easy, don't do RA, that's not what it's there for.

lishi

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2005

well , im giving up.

if someone don't think is overpowered then they wont.

i will just wait next skill update where it will get nerfed.

Nightwind Of Dwayna

Nightwind Of Dwayna

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Sep 2005

Ye Shall Be As [Gods]

Mo/Me

As you might have guessed, I'm familiar with those skills, Aeon. I even addressed my objections to 4 out of 6 of them in my original post.
If I ran all six of them, I might have a chance - but that's a pretty boring skillbar, eh?

We can agree to disagree about Holy Veil, I have always thought the skill was overrated. The "Double-click for hex removal" mechanism is cumbersome at best, and tough to use from a practical application standpoint.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeon_Xin
While not multiple removal, it creates a situation where an immediate cancelation can happen
Point taken. But too much talk about HV akes us away from the topic, which is SV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeon_Xin
My main argument, is that it's complained about in pertaining to a Random arena and that's why it's invalidated.
It is equally overpowered in Team Arenas, Hero Battles, Alliance Battles, and would likely be so in HA if anyone broke away from FotM long enough to try it. And, with all respect, there are frequently more full districts of RA than HA. I'm not going to get into this debate, especially with you as I respect your posts, but we're paying customers, too. If I was able to find a guild that was actually age 20 (or higher)+, active, and fun I'd be in HA and GvGs along with them, but as it is, RA's is what I've got, and I enjoy them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeon_Xin
There are several builds that will sometimes pwn in the same circumstance.

A 55 could potentially rule, with no teamates or all teamates dead.
Did you just suggest running a 55 monk in RA? I'm just going to pretend that was never brought up...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeon_Xin
RA, partially nullifys, or atleast can sometimes, nullify this metagame everyone keeps referring to.

By your arguments, any build that can soloPvE, neutralize a given class/build, or become invincible against a class/build is overpowered, and deserve a nerf.

Any Ranger that specializes in interrupts, could own any caster given the right circumstances, but no one in here is begging for them to be nerfed.
If a build can neutralize/be invincible against another build, it's perfectly fine. If it can neutralize/be invincible against an entire class regardless of build, yes, it needs a nerf. In my opinion. If you disagree, I'd love to hear why.

When a ranger owns me with interrupts, I take my hat off to him. This SV thing is proving a little tougher than that. Int ranger takes skill and timing. SV Necro takes the ability to wash, rinse, and repeat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeon_Xin
By nature of the random arena, people are going to get completely owned once in a while, and nerfing SV down isn't going to solve that. If SV is the only thing holding warriors back in RA, then hell, it's a good thing it's there.

...

If you can't take getting owned once in a while, maybe you shouldn't PvP, or atleast not do RA, because pwnage can't be avoided all the time. If you want comfy/easy, don't do RA, that's not what it's there for.
OK, here you're starting to get away from me. All I did was suggest a recharge of 15 seconds (although I would settle for 12). I said I enjoy a challenge, and that I like the pressure. I can take getting owned once in a while - what non-moron can't? But I also can call a spade a spade. This skill is overpowered. It needs a longer recharge time. If you want to spam it all over the place, Arcane Echo it and spam away. And, although I'm no PhD of forum etiquette, isn't saying "If you can't take getting owned once in a while, maybe you shouldn't PvP" to me sort of like me saying "If you can't stand hearing other people's opinions occasionally, maybe you shouldn't post in forums" to you? Mind you, I'm not saying that, but that statement sort of surprised me, coming from you. The rest of your logic has been so well thought-out throughout the thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coloneh
(Comparison to SS)
Thanks for making my arguement for me - SS is a 15 energy cast as opposed to 10 for SV, a 2 second cast as opposed to 1 for SV and a 10 recharge as opposed to 8 for SV, and has a 12 second shorter duration. Given that all requirements for casting SS are higher than for casting SV, why wouldn't SS do more damage than SV, as opposed to even slightly less?

Anyway, thanks everybody for the lively discussion on this topic; I think we will see some kind of change made to the skill with the skill refresh. I feel confident that I'm not the only one who sees at least some slight problems.

Nightwind
P.S. Aeon - I ain't mad at'cha - This is just where you and I differ, as Jules said in Pulp Fiction.

Akhilleus

Akhilleus

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2005

If it aint expensive, it aint worth buyin'.

Leading/Co-leading Bretheren Of Chaos [Dark]

W/Mo

i think you forgot one little thing in your comparison:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightwind Of Dwayna
I had to bump this thread as soon as I read this. I guess I didn't know it was here. You've asked for proof that it's overpowered? Here you go, all stats with 16's in relevant attributes:
Quote:
Empathy: 10 Energy, 2 second cast, 10 second recharge. Does 47 damage per attack, granted it's unconditional damage. Lasts 16 seconds.
NOT ELITE

Quote:
Backfire: 15 Energy, 3 second cast, 20 second recharge. Does 147 damage per cast, granted it's unditional damage. Lasts 10 seconds.
NOT ELITE

Quote:
SV: 10 Energy, 1 second cast, 10 second recharge. Does 105 Damage per cast or attack, lasts 33 seconds, for crying out loud.
ELITE

big surprize that SV (an elite skill) is better than 2 similar skills, that arent elite.
the mere fact that you use this as a comparison, is ludicrous.

and heres a thought.
if SV is such a problem for you, hexbreaker+holy veil should all but solve the problem.
healing/protection is a counter to damage, sv is a counter to healing/protection (and by far not the only one), so, get a counter to SV.
if your team is failing because of its lack of ability to counter a single hexmancer, then you have a FAR larger problem than a single "unbalanced" skill.

lightblade

lightblade

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

The Etereal Guard

Me/Mo

^Hex Breaker have slower recharge than SV, reapplying SV is possible.
Holy Veil need upkeep cost, which is quite costly since you don't know when the hex will come.

SV..being Elite doesn't justify that it's not overpowered. Because if you compare this Elite to other elites, this is overpowered..