I havent seen this subject discussed anywhere and this issue had just occured to me.
Does it seem right that in some situations the winner of a pvp match might be decided by a Spell randomly hapening to Fast recharge due to fast recharge equipment? Two evenly matched teams and the victor being decided by a random number generator?
Or does equipment with % to fast cast/rechage have only an insignificant impact on matches to where it could never truly impact the eventual winner?
It would seem to me that this game mechanic adds an unneccesary element of luck to pvp in a game that strives soo much to be balanced. One does not have to stretch there imagination to think of some rare instances where a key spell fast recharging multiple times a row directly caused a team to win.
Am i making a big deal out of nothing?
Items with % to fast recharge/cast spells add "luck" to pvp?
atreyu83
ss1986v2
big deal out of nothing...
Lets Get to Healing
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Originally Posted by ss1986v2
big deal out of nothing...
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Pwny Ride
well then lets get rid of all staff, and focus, andshield and sword and ALL weapon bonuses.
Hey that ele has more energy than a wammo, lets make max nrg to 20, and while your at it, make all skills do 1 dmg.
Is this the 'balanced' that your looking for?
Hey that ele has more energy than a wammo, lets make max nrg to 20, and while your at it, make all skills do 1 dmg.
Is this the 'balanced' that your looking for?
dgb
Everyone I know who uses those things factors them into average calculations and for instance a 25 minute GVG is easily enough for it to revert to the mean.
It's a non-event.
It's a non-event.
MadOnion
As the above poster has stated, the amount of times the extra bonus will occur per match, per team will end out roughly the same and is not worth worrying about.
Skuld
By taking the recharge/cast gear, you're missing out on +5 armour mods, +30 health ones etc. An extra cast of something is hardly going to win you the match, but that extra 30hp could save you from a spike, which possibly could.
FelixCarter
To the Op: I thought about it when I first did PvP, but it's such a small thing that it doesn't really affect the outcome of the battle too much. While their skill might recharge faster, they are still limited to their energy.
To everyone else: What is up with responding to forum questions by acting like the Op is retarded and has no right to breath anymore? It seems this forum becomes less friendly everyday...
Why don't we respond to newcomers by banning their asses? That'll teach them to ask questions. ¬_¬
To everyone else: What is up with responding to forum questions by acting like the Op is retarded and has no right to breath anymore? It seems this forum becomes less friendly everyday...
Why don't we respond to newcomers by banning their asses? That'll teach them to ask questions. ¬_¬
arcanemacabre
There already is a lot of luck involved in PvP with the Rock/Paper/Scissors style the skills have. Every build has a counter, and luck determines if you face that counter or not.
dgb
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Originally Posted by Skuld
By taking the recharge/cast gear, you're missing out on +5 armour mods, +30 health ones etc. An extra cast of something is hardly going to win you the match, but that extra 30hp could save you from a spike, which possibly could.
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Njaiguni Blaze
Everyone can have the same chance of skill recharge, armor penetration, attribute +1, tec. Therefore it's balanced.
Avarre
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Originally Posted by FelixCarter
Why don't we respond to newcomers by banning their asses? That'll teach them to ask questions. ¬_¬
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Flame posts cleared out, regardless of who is right or wrong, do not drag a thread off topic with accusations.
zwei2stein
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Originally Posted by Njaiguni Blaze
Everyone can have the same chance of skill recharge, armor penetration, attribute +1, tec. Therefore it's balanced.
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Rangers have +1/20% only for bows, same as Assassins and Dervishes for daggers and scythes respectivelly. Paragons cant have +1/20% for leadership.
Theese attributes also lack ANY linked items, thus Dervish and Assassin lines with spells do not have 20% attribute specific recharge/hct equipment possible, making their hrs max out at 20% (if staff) or 10% (want+focus) and hct at 10% regardless.
Theese things puts weaponless dervishes/assassins (they DO have interesting builds) at equipment disadvatage and making em join trapper rangers at using staves whose reqs they can not meet.
keli
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Originally Posted by zwei2stein
actually no:
Rangers have +1/20% only for bows, same as Assassins and Dervishes for daggers and scythes respectivelly. Paragons cant have +1/20% for leadership. Theese attributes also lack ANY linked items, thus Dervish and Assassin lines with spells do not have 20% attribute specific recharge/hct equipment possible, making their hrs max out at 20% (if staff) or 10% (want+focus) and hct at 10% regardless. Theese things puts weaponless dervishes/assassins (they DO have interesting builds) at equipment disadvatage and making em join trapper rangers at using staves whose reqs they can not meet. |
Njaiguni Blaze
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Originally Posted by zwei2stein
actually no:
Rangers have +1/20% only for bows, same as Assassins and Dervishes for daggers and scythes respectivelly. Paragons cant have +1/20% for leadership. Theese attributes also lack ANY linked items, thus Dervish and Assassin lines with spells do not have 20% attribute specific recharge/hct equipment possible, making their hrs max out at 20% (if staff) or 10% (want+focus) and hct at 10% regardless. Theese things puts weaponless dervishes/assassins (they DO have interesting builds) at equipment disadvatage and making em join trapper rangers at using staves whose reqs they can not meet. |
Lemme put it this way: Every warrior can have the same chance of swordsmanship +1 etc etc. Every Dervish can have the same chance of halving skill recharges of spells etc etc. Every monk can have the same chance of halving casting times of spells etc etc. Therefore it IS balanced. Don't compare a Warrior to a Monk please. That is not the "question" here.
BTW, if a person doesn't meet a req of a staff, he can't do the 11-22 dmg. Whooptidoo, as if that matters.
Lucky_
Every time attacker does damage with a non-candy cane item, he rolls a dice for luck. Dervishes have it worst, 9-41 damage distribution. So yes, luck always was, is, and will be a factor. In some cases, a major factor.
Skye Marin
While spells have X% for casting time and recharge, weapon attacks and weapon skills have X% chance of a critical hit, or doing any damage on their range.
A little bit of luck can go a ways, but I enjoy manipulating my luck with Mantra of Recovery and "Go For the Eyes!".
A little bit of luck can go a ways, but I enjoy manipulating my luck with Mantra of Recovery and "Go For the Eyes!".
Savio
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Originally Posted by Lucky_
Dervishes have it worst, 9-41 damage distribution.
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Block/evade stances, Blind, critical hits... yes, they add an element of luck. But you're never going to be able to win a match purely on that luck.
Bankai
A game without luck would be horrible.
If you want a game without luck, play the dragon arena when it's up again. Some time. Hopefully.
If you want a game without luck, play the dragon arena when it's up again. Some time. Hopefully.
Antheus
Chess could be considered a game without luck factor.
But what if your opponent misses a move that would lead to a 5 move win? Did you get lucky? Or are you more skilled? If the opponent were given enough time, they might see that move as well - but chess is a timed game.
All weapons depend on "luck" - namely the damage roll. The damage you take depends on roll of which armor piece gets hit. Recharge modifiers are the same - they might trigger, they might not. Probably half or mroe attacks depend on conditions or hexes. Chance to miss, evade, block, ...
What about getting that lucky diversion that applies just 0.1 second before target finishes casting? Or the lucky interrupt of 1/4 second spell? Is this luck or skill? Since it's impossible to interrupt 1/4 second spells by skill, then it has to be luck. Does that mean those skills should be made uninterruptible?
The very nature of our universe is based on chance. In the end the only thing that matters, are statistical odds. And as soon as you get into that perspective, there advantage given to you by "luck" can be extremly precisely determined.
But the key factor is, you cannot count on luck.
But what if your opponent misses a move that would lead to a 5 move win? Did you get lucky? Or are you more skilled? If the opponent were given enough time, they might see that move as well - but chess is a timed game.
All weapons depend on "luck" - namely the damage roll. The damage you take depends on roll of which armor piece gets hit. Recharge modifiers are the same - they might trigger, they might not. Probably half or mroe attacks depend on conditions or hexes. Chance to miss, evade, block, ...
What about getting that lucky diversion that applies just 0.1 second before target finishes casting? Or the lucky interrupt of 1/4 second spell? Is this luck or skill? Since it's impossible to interrupt 1/4 second spells by skill, then it has to be luck. Does that mean those skills should be made uninterruptible?
The very nature of our universe is based on chance. In the end the only thing that matters, are statistical odds. And as soon as you get into that perspective, there advantage given to you by "luck" can be extremly precisely determined.
But the key factor is, you cannot count on luck.
Antheus
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Originally Posted by Bankai
A game without luck would be horrible.
If you want a game without luck, play the dragon arena when it's up again. Some time. Hopefully. |
The luck of getting good, skilled teammates with quick reflexes.
tomcruisejr
why complain about luck? even real life has luck involved.
Narcism
I ignored most of everyone's post but the OP's, because it seems not many are grasping the concept.
Balanced games shoudl not have % based, and you're completely right, If I luckily get moer recharges on my Energy Surges, I have better luck at winning then my opponent. Same goes for Aegis 50%, and the other %'s that go with it (Ward Melee, Guardian, SoD, most stances) Someone mentionned attack damages, and crits, and they're absolutely right, it adds a luck factor in the game. But, the game needs to have some sort of variety to keep it interesting, sadly, there has to be that balance.
Balanced games shoudl not have % based, and you're completely right, If I luckily get moer recharges on my Energy Surges, I have better luck at winning then my opponent. Same goes for Aegis 50%, and the other %'s that go with it (Ward Melee, Guardian, SoD, most stances) Someone mentionned attack damages, and crits, and they're absolutely right, it adds a luck factor in the game. But, the game needs to have some sort of variety to keep it interesting, sadly, there has to be that balance.
Njaiguni Blaze
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Originally Posted by Narcism
I ignored most of everyone's post but the OP's, because it seems not many are grasping the concept.
Balanced games shoudl not have % based, and you're completely right, If I luckily get moer recharges on my Energy Surges, I have better luck at winning then my opponent. Same goes for Aegis 50%, and the other %'s that go with it (Ward Melee, Guardian, SoD, most stances) Someone mentionned attack damages, and crits, and they're absolutely right, it adds a luck factor in the game. But, the game needs to have some sort of variety to keep it interesting, sadly, there has to be that balance. |
Deleet
I think the luck factor in GW is very small compared to a lot of other games.
Many of the concepts in GW wouldn't work without the luck factor.
But yes, extra luck doesn't add extra fun to a game.
Guild Wars is fine IMO, "Don't shoot birds with cannons".
Many of the concepts in GW wouldn't work without the luck factor.
But yes, extra luck doesn't add extra fun to a game.
Guild Wars is fine IMO, "Don't shoot birds with cannons".
Empex
When calculating probability, one must take into account the number of events, each with a chance of something happening. If there's an large amount of events, each with a probability of something happening, it will average out. How many times do you use a skill in a GvG? A hundred times? Two hundred? Even more? At such big numbers one can usually assume that you will have a very close to 20% proc in total and as such what seems random really becomes just a question of even distribution.
Njaiguni Blaze
Besides, if we'd have to eliminate the "luck" what game would there be left? Think about it. Aegis, Guardian, Primal Rage, Lightning Reflexes, Silver Armor, Defensive Stance etc etc. All those skills should be removed. And then there's the chance of getting hit on certain parts of the body, that would have to be removed too.
I think the system is fine as it is and always has been.
I think the system is fine as it is and always has been.
Antheus
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Originally Posted by Narcism
I ignored most of everyone's post but the OP's, because it seems not many are grasping the concept.
Balanced games shoudl not have % based, and you're completely right, If I luckily get moer recharges on my Energy Surges, I have better luck at winning then my opponent. Same goes for Aegis 50%, and the other %'s that go with it (Ward Melee, Guardian, SoD, most stances) Someone mentionned attack damages, and crits, and they're absolutely right, it adds a luck factor in the game. But, the game needs to have some sort of variety to keep it interesting, sadly, there has to be that balance. |
Modifier: "Halves recharge time of spells (chance 20%)".
Non luck: "Reduces recharge time of spells by 10%"
Aegis: "For 5...10 seconds, all party members have a 50% chance to block attacks."
Non luck: "For 5..10 seconds, all party members take half damage from attacks."
Guardian: "For 5 seconds, target ally has a 20...44% chance to "block" attacks."
Non luck: "For 5 seconds, target ally takes 20..44% less damage from attacks."
Would that make it non-luck based? (The obvious block-dependant skills are excluded from comparison)
Believe it or not, those two are equivalent. Matches in GW are not won or lost on a handful of rolls. In each match, thousands, if not tens of thousands of rolls are made.
Once that happens, you go from realm of luck, into realm of statistics.
Look at it this way. Gamblers believe in luck. Casinos believe in statistics. Who is smarter?
Winning or losing (chance of hit, recharge, critical damage) is irrelevant. It's the big picture that counts. This is why casinos get rich, and gamblers lose fortunes.
Luck in reality doesn't exist.
Scourgey
It does matter, and I personally don't like luck in these sort of games.
Especially now since that update, where it is no longer possible to recharge skills in under half the time. Having 36% recharge double speed means you almost have the mesmer elite mantra of recovery on you a third of the time, and it made the mesmer elite useless with these items
Also it's a real pain trying to interrupt 1 second spells because of lucky half casting speed triggering. If you got that interrupt in, you could have won that battle.
But as someone said, GW's amount of luck is pretty low compared to other games, I do like it because of this. Therehere aren't any passive evade/dodge/block like in WoW, I hated missing 5 times in a row when I was 1 hit from killing an enemy (requiring me to use a potion).
Especially now since that update, where it is no longer possible to recharge skills in under half the time. Having 36% recharge double speed means you almost have the mesmer elite mantra of recovery on you a third of the time, and it made the mesmer elite useless with these items
Also it's a real pain trying to interrupt 1 second spells because of lucky half casting speed triggering. If you got that interrupt in, you could have won that battle.
But as someone said, GW's amount of luck is pretty low compared to other games, I do like it because of this. Therehere aren't any passive evade/dodge/block like in WoW, I hated missing 5 times in a row when I was 1 hit from killing an enemy (requiring me to use a potion).
Blackhearted
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Originally Posted by FelixCarter
Why don't we respond to newcomers by banning their asses? That'll teach them to ask questions. ¬_¬
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Grolubao
Course it wins games! If you look at Tommy you will see him changing his set before spamming LOD so, you can guess that it makes all the difference on the long term.
Vital
Good PvPers always change out weapon sets (when it is beneficial to the build) to give them a higher probability at this "luck".
Lets make the example really simple. You are running a pressure build and want your Tainted Necro to maintain Taint, make Shambling Horrors out of corpses, and explode corpses at VoD with Putrid...well then the Necro needs a +20% enchantment set for Tainted and a "20/20 + 20/20" set for the corpse control. The "luck" is getting fast cast and recharge on Shambling and Putrid.
Let's say that the meta is hex heavy and you want the Necro to run a Convert Hex. The Necro would be foolish not to run a "20/20 + 20/20" Prot set also. More fast Converts is a very good thing.
The "luck" does help because you shouldnt assume the other team has smart players. Take advantage of the "luck".
Lets make the example really simple. You are running a pressure build and want your Tainted Necro to maintain Taint, make Shambling Horrors out of corpses, and explode corpses at VoD with Putrid...well then the Necro needs a +20% enchantment set for Tainted and a "20/20 + 20/20" set for the corpse control. The "luck" is getting fast cast and recharge on Shambling and Putrid.
Let's say that the meta is hex heavy and you want the Necro to run a Convert Hex. The Necro would be foolish not to run a "20/20 + 20/20" Prot set also. More fast Converts is a very good thing.
The "luck" does help because you shouldnt assume the other team has smart players. Take advantage of the "luck".