The Average Skill Level in Guild wars

I've been considering writing an article on this subject for some time, it's an interesting one for me so I've decided to open it up for discussion.

We all have our own personal opinion in terms of what makes a "good" Guild wars player, some of us have higher standards than others, some of us are in it for fun and couldn't really care less if we're good or bad players. But something I think we're all aware of is the way the average players skill level seems to rise and fall over time, sometimes with the implementation of new features (particularly observer mode), or with the implementation of new skills, classes and game dynamics.

Something that seems to have really stuck out for me in the last few months or so is an alarming drop in skill level in the upper tiers of PVP play. I'd put this down mainly to the lack of incentive to be competative in GvG, and a less competative style of play in the 6v6 change to Heroes' Ascent. But it also occurred to me that perhaps the skill level of the mid level players is dropping too.

I'm seeing a distinct lack of "new blood" lately, it's been a while since I've seen a new team or guild that's actually gone out and impressed me. The idea of average skill level being on a constant downwards spiral is a worrying one. Over time it could lead to the dumbing down of the game and a lack of competition for veteran guilds.

So why do I think we're on this path? There's a whole number of reasons.

From public resources being full of misinformation and "bad" builds to the constant build up of requirements just to get into competative play. But I think the biggest problem for me is the inclusion of new skills in chapters 2 and especially 3 that require almost zero skill to play whilst still achieving very passable results.

Examples of these would be searing flames, sand storms, paragon party wide buffs, ritualist spirit spam, dervish. None of which take very much skill to play, but give mediocre teams some very dangerous fire power. The dervish in particular stands out to me as being a "dumbed down" warrior, lacking the finesse and skill required to play a good warrior in a top end game and yet managing to cause some very serious damage.

We've got RaO Thumpers tearing things up, we've got blinding surge eles constantly applying blind, no need to cover with weakness, just spam spam spam! Sure these are small changes, especially to those of us who were used to the slightly (but not very) more complicated use of enervating charge to cover blind on a target. But I think it's these little things that are making the difference.

Enchant removal? forget about it! just beat through the enchants with avatar of Grenth, no real need to shatter any more.

Avoiding prot to cause maximum pressure on a melee profession? Don't worry about that! Grenth deals with that too.

Trying to pull off a nice adren lead balanced spike? Well forget learning about kiting and placement, just shadow prison to the target and let rip. You've got spiritual pain backing you up now anyway, your casters don't even need a line of sight!

I think that with the addition of a truck load of new skills with each additional chapter, the designers are running out of new things for those skills to do, so rather than inventing a new kind of skill, they're either duplicating another skill and changing the numbers, or looking at what's strong in the meta and simplifying it into an elite that anyone can play with.

It's like looking at the game and saying.. "well people are needing to constantly spam blind with flashbots, how can we help them out with that?" and designing an elite skill around that premise. The result is the skill required to play the original build goes out of the window and just about anyone can play it to an effective level.

Whilst all these things mean that poorer players are now more able to compete with more skilled players, is that really a good thing? Shouldn't new players be able to stretch ahead of the opposition BECAUSE they're more skilled? Isn't attempting to reach the level of your betters the motivation behind making people learn?


I want to hear your thoughts on the subject.


Some questions to consider:

Where do you think the average skill level in Guild Wars is right now?

Do you think this is a good or bad thing for the game?

Why do you think it's at the level it's at?

How do you think you rate personally in relation to the average player?

How would you remedy the problem (if you think there is one)?

Have we begun to reach the upper level for the amount of skills the game is capable of working with?

Are new professions too easy to play?

I've mainly spoken about PVP here because it's what I know, feel free to discuss the PVE side of this. I'm interested in where the game is going as a whole and I'd like to hear how its evolving in terms of PVE also.


Thanks.

Well, it depends where you start. if you start from the very very very very (x100) then yes the amount of skill to achieve higher ranks is on a downward spiral. If you start from when HA instead of tombs was introdouced then it's on an upward spiral. I say this because of one simple build...IWAY (scary music plays) (people drop dead). At least you have people that know how to knockdown, people that know when to use theirs skills. If I remeber correctly, in IWAY as soon as any of your skills recharged you's just use them again. Absoloutely NO SKILL whatsoever. Also Mesmers are IMO one of the hardest professions to play and they are being used more and more. They are still not being used to the skill level that mesmers lend themselves to but they are being used. IMO it just depends where you start from and who you ask.

One thing I have to disagree with here, is IWAY actually required some level of skill. Whilst there were a lot of completely terrible IWAYs out there, some good players used the build very well, even IWAY required positioning, keeping your necros in the backline, extending the warriors and having them full back when they take damage, line backing, and so on.

Searing flames is just target and go.

As for mesmers, you bring up a good point. They used to be about shutting things down, there used to be a certain level of finesse when playing now, now it's 3 2 1 spiritual pain!!

You sure flamed a wide range of professions and builds. Some are gimmick, some are not. Just because one skill set is easier to use than the other makes the skill level of the player less? Not really. Poor players and good players can use Searing Flames or Avatar of Grenth, the difference is how they apply it and if they play it correctly.

What's wrong with giving players, who are not as good as higher ranked guilds, a hand? I don't really see a problem, considering the higher ranked guilds also have access to the same skills.

Everyone deserves an equal chance at PvP (because that is what you are talking about... "The Average PvP Skill Level in Guild wars." is what it should be named).

Play how you like, with whatever skill combo you like, if it gets you to the top, fine. If you are getting destroyed by these "gimmick" builds and professions, maybe you need to reevaluate your own skill level.

edit: You just argued IWAY required skill... then that makes it seem like you are saying Avatar of Grenth or Searing Flame (from your examples) builds require some level of skill too.

Well all builds require SOME skill. In SF you have to know to MS--->Sf---> Glowing Gaze. I have played some actually good SF's because they knew to not have their monks rush in, not to overextend, pressure anyone who is overextending so they will lay off the monks. Any gimmick build can have some amount of greatness in the right hands. Look at [ftl] they run jagged/hex pressure and they have capped halls more times than i can remember. Now the build is considered noob by some people.

There will always be some FotM/Gimmick/hardly any skill build. Once that build is strongly cemented in the metagame people adapt to counter it and that build (the build that counters the FotM) is used then people counter that build so it's a chain. e.g. Jagged/Hex pressure was used to dislodge some of the holding builds.

Though if a team can overcome that counter and play through it then that and only that shows true skill. Basically, it's not the build it's the people who play the build. It's not the profession it's the people who play it. Sure anyone can play the build/profession but only a very good player can play it to it's potential. Anet can give us any freaking build they want but it will only be used to it's fullest in an experienced player.

It's not flaming. How can I flame a fictional profession in a computer game.

The problem is, I'm suggesting, that older players had to use a more complicated combination of skills/position/strategy and so on to achieve the same results that new players can achieve with one skill specially built for said purpose. Thus the new players aren't learning skill synergy, strategy or any of that good stuff.

This isn't a post about anything being overpowered, I don't know where you got that from, it's about the skill level required to play certain skills. And the skill level in the game as a whole.

Iway required positioning, kiting, linebacking, a good understanding of how to apply pressure and keep yourself alive to play effectively. Searing flames is just a "spam it and go" build, it requires pretty much nothing unique in itself, Grenth pretty much destroys the entire concept of working "around" enchantments, shattering them, disabling them. You just beat through them, it makes for a simpler game. And a simpler game makes for less skilled players.

What I'm discussing here isn't gimmick builds, it's the skill level of players. I'm just making the link that particular SKILLS are being introduced to replace synergies between two previous skills, or to replace older perfectly valid builds, which in turn dumbs down the level of knowledge and skill required to play the profession in question before the new elites were introduced.

All this is is my opinion on why the skill level is dropping, I'd like to hear what you think is happening to the skill level in game right now, both in PVP and PVE and why you think it's going the way it is.

Where do you think the average skill level in Guild Wars is right now?
I am one of those play for fun don't really care about having the right build player. I think only PvPers need to bother about skill and having the right build because in PvE it doesn't really matter. With Heroes, i heard, its pretty freaking easy.

Do you think this is a good or bad thing for the game?
I think it has its good and bad. Good for casual gamer as he can play anytime he want and won't find himself with -60% all the time. Bad for hardcore PvEers and PvPers as it has become too easy for them.

Why do you think it's at the level it's at?
i think there are high number of players like myself who don't really care and are low skilled and a low number who know the game inside out kick ur ass in PvP within 10 secs players.

How do you think you rate personally in relation to the average player?
Low skilled

How would you remedy the problem (if you think there is one)?
I think the reason why the skill level has gone down is because many old hardcore players have left the game. Newbies who want to get into PvP face a brick wall as there is a minimum requirement to get into PvP groups. Faction and NF allows u to purchase skills thus u will only buy the skills u think u will use all the time rather than waste money buying all the skills to come out with specific builds. Last but not least, heroes kick ass.

So my solution is to allow only one hero to follow u around in missions thus increasing difficulty and the need to group with other human players. have a better reward system for PvP which will give newbies something to aim for, eg points can be exchanged for rare items like fellblade.

Have we begun to reach the upper level for the amount of skills the game is capable of working with?
No idea what you mean...

Are new professions too easy to play?
No issues there.

Isn't attempting to reach the level of your betters the motivation behind making people learn?
ppl are always looking for the easy way out or the get rich quick secret. Anet has provided this with certain skills that own. why would they want to get better if they already think they are better?

I really liked this point, are you suggesting that the average "attempting-to-be-competative" player thinks they're better than they actually are DUE to these easy to use skills, and so they're not progressing?

Could you elaborate on this at all?

Well in a total simplest answer to the wuestion, No I do not see the skill level declining. If it is it might be a blessing in disguise to get some fresh blood in GW. Sure the builds are easy (IMO they have alway been easy) but people know how to play those easy builds the same as maybe 4 months ago.

Also consider that as the number of players increases the average will continue to fall. Sure some new players will become very successful, but historically averages nearly always fall.

I disagree about the dervish being a dumbed down warrior. If anything a dervish has a lot more considerations than a warrior. A warrior can rely on high natural armor and a lot of useful stances. The Dervish on the other hand has only mediocre armor and must utilize enchants to keep up their effectiveness. How much enchant removal is available versus stance removal? To be a really effective dervish you have to have good timing, and plan ahead on your enchants, layering them so that your core enchants don't get stripped away leaving you with your proverbial junk hanging in the breeze. this goes far beyond your average amount of upkeep required for say a stance tank or KD build. Granted in PvP the dervish seems to be relegated to using gimmick skills, Grenth anyone? A good dervish though could provide a lot in the way of pressure and in a way no warrior could ever hope for. They can lay out almost every condition in the game. They can lay down high damage on squishies. Most importantly, if played correctly they require very little monk upkeep. Granted you don't see many people playing dervishes well. Mostly you see the gimmick builds, that while effective, are sort of lazy.

Now I'm not saying dervish characters take the same degree of skill that say a mesmer takes to play well but certainly more than a warrior. The way a warrior is made makes them very noob friendly. High armor, pretty easy skill trees to use effectively. They are very forgiving characters to play in that you can screw up pretty bad with a warrior before taking a dive. Other characters are not so lucky and do not have that level of survivability. I think it was summed up best in the dervish forum in "The Way of the Scythe and Hood" thread.

That sums it up very well I think. I'm not going to get involved with any debate about PvP since I don't do that anymore, but I don't think the new professions are too easy to play. they are simply new and as such you see people paying a lot of attention to them right now and coming up with spanking new builds that get picked up, tossed about, refined and then poof now you have this FotM that everyone has used and refined to the point of ridiculousness. That doesn't mean the profession as a whole is easy to play just that build.

Where do you think the average skill level in Guild Wars is right now?
Low to medium.

Do you think this is a good or bad thing for the game?
It's expected, f2p will draw in those want to play an online game but don't want to pay and don't have 3+ hours a day to play.

Why do you think it's at the level it's at?
Because it's free to play. There is no real level of commitment needed hence why there is considerable lack of decent PvE players.

How do you think you rate personally in relation to the average player?
I'm average.

How would you remedy the problem (if you think there is one)?
Gwen's Firestorm.

Have we begun to reach the upper level for the amount of skills the game is capable of working with?
No. New skills keeps the game fresh. New classes just need to be thought out better.

Are new professions too easy to play? To me playing one of the newer classes is more a challenge. I've tried playing Dervish and Paragon but just could never get into it like my good old necro and warrior.

My honest answers. Riverside geeks feel free to get out your dictionary/Thesaurus etc to rip it apart and start your 1000 word essay on why my opinion isn't valid.

I feel this was a blatant attack at my post.

Would you say then that the new professions are being aimed at PVE players? I see how a dervish could be more complicated to play than a warrior in PVE, but in PVP there's really only a few skill combinations worth using.

The problem with non grenth dervishes in pvp is that they hit so slowly and in big numbers they're very very easy to prot against. A dervish vs spirit bond for example has major trouble applying pressure. But in pve prot isn't much of a concern, and looking after yourself requires a little more focus than a warrior. Perhaps the niche for the new professions in PVP is too small?

Define skill first and then let's talk coz i can call a group of searing flame elementalists that can use their build to beat almost all other players skilled too.

This is the problem. You don't want mediocre teams to beat you. And once they beat you with a build, you assume that they are unskilled (since they are unheard) and attack their build. Maybe you are getting old and rusty or naturally the rookies know how to play better than you?

Explain how. I don't read your posts and I haven't done so in a while. It hurts my eyes trying to read through the mass of words you call a paragraph.

My answers were my own they were not aimed at anyone. But if you feel they were then thats your business.

I honestly hadn't thought about it that way but you do bring up a good point. I think they are aiming the Nightfall classes at PvE players. Factions though I think was more PvP-centric. Assassin for example almost screams PvP , to me anyway. Aside from a few notable gimmick builds they aren't really suited for PvE play. I'm not saying they can't be effective but generally speaking assassins apply hard damage in a short amount of time to a single target. That sounds like a very PvP like tactic. Target the most threatening member of a team and take it out. Ritualists, again not a very useful class in PvE. The spirits take awhile to set up and they don't move well. In PvP though, with smaller arena maps than the large PvE instances, the spirits and effects can be used to control the battlefield.

This is probably the best thread I have read in a long time on guru, and I agree wholeheartedly with the origional post.

The problem, to me, is skills that are far overpowered like Avatar of Grenth and Searing Flames. But looking at the new classes since prophecies they are relatively easy to play/overpowered.

Ritualist and Paragon are impossibly easy to play. Dervishes are incredibly strong, much more than that of a warrior. Avatar of Grenth takes so much skill out of the game it makes me hurt. Assassins are the only skill requiring new class to be introduced since the start of the game, and their uses are rather limited in my opinion.

I started playing mid last year and my first character was a mesmer.
I stink very much.
Maybe I am influencing a lot of people to play stinky.
So if you see a bad mesmer.....it's me!
I thievery and divert my own spells. How's I do that?!

I don't necessarily disagree with what you are saying, but the pending ATs which are supposed to make the ladder mean something, have alot of typically top guilds sitting on the sidelines moreso than the atrocious skill balance. The level of competition in HA is also low in part because so relatively few people are playing it now.

Where do you think the average skill level in Guild Wars is right now?

Mediocre and sinking.

Do you think this is a good or bad thing for the game?

I don't know. In my opinion, no it isn't a good thing, but yes it is. No meaning it...well...becomes less challenging for more advanced players, but yes meaning it's easier for new players to get in.

Why do you think it's at the level it's at?

Simple. You don't have to pay to play.

How do you think you rate personally in relation to the average player?

I don't know...average?

How would you remedy the problem (if you think there is one)?

It's a question of if I would remedy the problem or not.

Have we begun to reach the upper level for the amount of skills the game is capable of working with?

Professions? Yes. Skills? I wouldn't know.

Are new professions too easy to play?

In my opinion? Yes. From both chapters, with the exception of Assassin.

The average level of most GW players is so bad that people prefer Hero's over people cause the hero's perform better than the average player.
Adding hero's made this a solo-game instead of playing together. It just isn't like Prophecies anymore. I think thats a pity.

Great post Tiyuri;
I think your original post pretty much sums up the state of PvP [at least GvGs,I never had any interest in any of the other areas]

I can only speak for myself but you have summed up why I stopped GvGing,The only other real drawback I see is the lack of incentive to play anymore and spend the time to be good. With the advent of the farmable GvG title I noticed the "gimmick" builds being so heavily used that it drew alot of new players in and with using only the FOTM huge pressure/fast win title farming builds, most of them never learned field tactics or bothered to try and make builds that don't show up on google.

I consider myself a very good player and spent my time GvGing with highly skilled and intelligent players of which maybe 15% of them still GvG.

I really have no idea how any of the new directions the game has gone can be turned around but between google builds and the lack of interest newer players show in learning anything beyond what they see as the easiest way to win I believe the over all skill level is on a sharp decline.

Where do you think the average skill level in Guild Wars is right now?

In PvE: Higher than at the start and still rising. The number of total PvE noobs has decreased plenty. I hardly remember the last W/mo HB spammer.

In low end PvP: Lots higher that at the start. Even some rank 3000 guilds run half decent builds now, when they used to use their PvE minion masters.

In high end PvP: Below Prophecies/Factions levels and stagnating. It is telling that almost none of the current FotM builds originated in high end GvG.

Do you think this is a good or bad thing for the game?
In the short term good. In the long term, losing the very top of the skill pyramid can be devastating.

Why do you think it's at the level it's at?
Old noobs got experience, old pro's got bored after 2 years of the same game.

How do you think you rate personally in relation to the average player?
Below top 10%, above the rest.

How would you remedy the problem (if you think there is one)?
Stop introducing new professions.

Have we begun to reach the upper level for the amount of skills the game is capable of working with?
The game can deal with tons more, but build builders can not. All current FotM depends on (ab)using single strong skills instead of creating interaction between different skills.

Are new professions too easy to play?
No. If anything, they are too hard: Witness how everyone is reducing them to single skill builds instead of creating innovative skill chains/interactions.

- Xeeron

Where do you think the average skill level in Guild Wars is right now?
Somewhere between average to low.

Do you think this is a good or bad thing for the game?
For a free to play game? Depends on how dedicated you are to the game. If you are a hard core player, it's obviously bad for you, if you are a casual player, go join in the carebear hug.

Why do you think it's at the level it's at?
Number of factors actually. First there is the exodus of experienced players. I've been playing since the WPE and i can honestly say i've seen entire friendlists worth of decent to highly skilled players simply disappear never to log on again.

Then there is the Guild Wars sales model being based largely on new blood and expansion chapters. This means any new blood has a steep learning path before him if he really wants to be a versatile player able to play many builds stretching across chapters. Unfortunately a lot of new bloods find that too much of a hassle and just settle on whatever builds they are comfortable with or simply wiki a cookie cutter build to save himself some brain cells. Being stuck playing only a few builds or cookie cutters, skill levels naturally decline.

Which leads to the other factor, the freedom of information (some may argue misinformation) available. Having lots of public information available through the wiki or public forums is good but unfortunately a lot of new bloods do not use this info to better themselves by expanding their skillbase and builds, choosing instead to go right to the cookie cutters and "effective" builds. The problem with this approach is that many do not see why that build is "effective", because they skipped the whole process of discovery involved. Playing a half-assed experimental build and tweaking it till it becomes "effective", you learn a lot of quirks involved with the build/skills and its strengths and weaknesses, not to mention its variances possible. By grabbing it right off the net, you have an "effective" build missing the skill and tactics needed to really play it and play it well.

Lastly, as a few have mentioned already, its a free game. Really, unless you are one of the top guilds or planning to be a top guild with a chance at playing in tournaments and winning prizes, there is really no reason to beat yourself up over this game and try to be better at it (its free, duh). You essentially play to have fun and once that fun is gone so too is whatever little dedication already ties you to this game.

How do you think you rate personally in relation to the average player?
Sunken to average and sinking still, due to real life and a steadily decreasing interest.

How would you remedy the problem (if you think there is one)?
Don't really think it is possible. To do so you will need to motivate the players to improve themselves, which is kinda like trying to make an idiot not be an idiot. You can dangle carrots and spoonfeed information to the players, but unless they want to learn and have the motivation to learn, it's an exercise in futility.

Have we begun to reach the upper level for the amount of skills the game is capable of working with?
Depends. If Otyugh's Cry ever became a PVP necessity on every player's skillbar, maybe. (i.e. There are as many useless skills as there are useful ones.)

Are new professions too easy to play?
Yes, if you want to talk about cookie cutter builds, no, if you want to try a non cookie cutter build.

Where do you think the average skill level in Guild Wars is right now?

Low - Medium.

Do you think this is a good or bad thing for the game?
Good, it helps keeping the flood of new players coming and keeping the avarage low so the new players can more easily see their progress.

Why do you think it's at the level it's at?

The f2p argument, as mentioned above. I think it's valid.

How do you think you rate personally in relation to the average player?
Above average/high

How would you remedy the problem (if you think there is one)?
In my opinion there is no problem about the low skill level - Or at least when they fix the daily tournament function, higher level guilds will more likely match up against other high ranked guilds, same goes for HA.

Have we begun to reach the upper level for the amount of skills the game is capable of working with?
No, the skills is not the problem, someone mentioned that they keep the game fresh and I think i can agree on that. I think the problem lies with the new players having to buy all pervious campaigns to play serious PvP. That is my major concern about the future of Guild Wars PvP.

Are new professions too easy to play?
While at first, it seems easy to play a paragon as a support character, even helping on the spikes is easy. But then you realize that the profession is capable of a lot functions. Due to their naturally high armor, they are excellent body blockers for both flag runners and for helping your monks kite from enemy melee attackers.

Dervishes, on the other hard, lack mobillity compared to warriors. Even though they are easy to spike with without the same risk as a warrior, they are also more predictable. Smart players will use that to their advantage, removing them from the overpowered list to good.

Long story short, Nightfall introduced easier ways for bad or medium players to beat other bad or medium players.

Where do you think the average skill level in Guild Wars is right now?
- Lower than AI.
Do you think this is a good or bad thing for the game?
- Good, I own more.
Why do you think it's at the level it's at?
- They are dumb and young kids who can't pay for WoW.
How do you think you rate personally in relation to the average player?
- I'm godlike.
Have we begun to reach the upper level for the amount of skills the game is capable of working with?
- That was reached ages ago.
Are new professions too easy to play?
- Nah, they're just fun.

And what's wrong with replacing Ether Renewal, Blinding Flash and Enervating Charge with one elite skill? It brings 2 new skills into builds to play with. More variety. Nobody wants to bring 5 spells just to rip some enchants off. They can now bring a scythe attack and Grenth's Avatar. And 6 others. More variety!!!

Where do you think the average skill level in Guild Wars is right now?
Low to Below Average

Do you think this is a good or bad thing for the game?
Actually, I think this is normal overall. Whether it's good or bad is questionable.

Why do you think it's at the level it's at?
Think of people, most people in general are complete idiots. It should be no different in an online game. It's just one of those unfortunate facts of life. My guess is the current system placates that fact and tries to dumb it down for our average 13 year old players to our 35 year old players that still act like they're 13.

How do you think you rate personally in relation to the average player?
Above Average, but below Hardcore HA/GvGer. I know what most skills do, but I'm not able to come up with a successful build on the spot. It takes time for me. Not sure if others can just sniff out a successful build by reading descriptions or not.

How would you remedy the problem (if you think there is one)?
Unfortunately I have no idea. This problem isn't even close to as easy as many ANet complainers may think it is. Much of this is due to speculation as well. To me, Searing flames is overpowered. Also in terms of PvP I think necros need a huge overhaul, but that's just me. It's easy to speculate such things but we have no idea what the consequence of nerfing or buffing will do until it's implemented. That's probably why ANet did this test weekend, to see what works and what doesn't. It's much easier to have thousands of people test/submit bugs than it is to have a mere office room full of people do it. Not to mention that many of them are too busy working on future releases of Guild Wars in order to keep their profits rolling in to PvP. It's the only way they can continue to keep the servers online so it's a necessary evil to deal with on the player side of things.

Have we begun to reach the upper level for the amount of skills the game is capable of working with?
I don't believe so. You'll probably see the same number of skills released upon the arrival of Chapter 4, and heres the reason: People get bored of using the same old skills. They want to try new things and will complain if they're not able to upon the release of a new expansion.

Are new professions too easy to play?
Absolutely. I believe they are the answer to all of the complaints they were getting about "noob assassins" in Factions. The thing about Assassins is: They can be devastating(and usually are nowadays) if used correctly. However for the first few months of Factions, and this is even somewhat prevalent now of new Assassin users, they are completely terrible at playing them. For those of us there during the first few months of Factions, all we saw were Assassins thinking they were tanks, and getting crushed attempting to do so. My fiancee, the best monk i've ever had the pleasure to play with, at times refused join groups with Assassins or heal many assassins because they were completely oblivious to the fact that they were as fragile as Necromancers with Tormentor's Armor. Anyways, this is my explanation for why they decided to "dumb down" the new professions.

in some positions however, the average player skill has gone up.

take monk for example. in the old days, a monk can go in with oldschool OoB, holy veil, and sig of devo, and still complain about energy issues. nowadays, monks go Mo/A/E/whatever and still have plenty of energy to go around.

also, gone were the days where a monk can heal 100+ hp every time they twitch. monk builds nowadays are slower, and heal for less; yet they are still as effective as ever while being played. the only logical assumption to this is that the average skill level of monk players has gone up.

Some questions to consider:

Where do you think the average skill level in Guild Wars is right now?

PvE wise, I think it's actually a bit higher than it used to be.

Do you think this is a good or bad thing for the game?

I personally think that the skill level of other players has made much of an impact to the state of the game, at least in relative reflection of the other factors (such as the game itself).

Why do you think it's at the level it's at?

Getting runs is almost non-existant in any campaign other than Prophecies. Also, I think there has been more challenge integrated into PvE in general. If nothing else, there are a lot more skills and professions to be taken into consideration when considering how to prepare and build for battle.

How do you think you rate personally in relation to the average player?

I've been playing for over 19 months and while I've never been a really PvP intensive person, I'd like to think that my overall experience in addition to what I have learned from others on these forums puts me a good bit ahead of average players.

How would you remedy the problem (if you think there is one)?

There will always be either complete idiots or people who simply dont invest enough time into the game to be able to be incredibly adept at the game. Making the game too hard will cause many of the casual players to quit and making it too easy will make the hardcore players move on. Failing to meet the balance will cost A-net money and therefore come at the expense of those who still play the game in terms of quality of experience (because after all, a online game isn't much fun if no one is online).

Have we begun to reach the upper level for the amount of skills the game is capable of working with?

I certainly think that many people out there have, but I don't think the general mass ever will by virtue of their casual nature.

Are new professions too easy to play?

Personally, I think the new professions are harder to play than many of the core professions. Assasin's are a good example of this. Such is why it became common to see one die in nothing flat in PvE. Skill combos and increasingly conditional skills have required more thought to be put into builds. I believe this largely comes from the fact that A-net has had to become more diverse and creative in their creation of skills to allow them to be different from other professions, but still fit and be balanced.

Thanks for the responses all.

Ah but right now we're at a stage where monk elites are practically managing energy for you. Zealous benediction is on almost every monks bar, it's a huge heal and it's an elite that lets pretty much anyone energy juggle.

Have monks become more skilled? Or have monk bars got easier to play? To be efficient with the old boon prot you had to prot AND heal using divine boon, the prot aspect was actually important. With new monk bars the prot and the healing is pretty separate, I'd suggest this is far easier to play than the old boon prot bars.

Do you think perhaps new skills are becoming obsolete due to the way new elites in each chapter are replacing skill combinations?


This is an interesting point. What makes a skill overpowered? Is it simply the POTENTIAL for the skill to be effective? Does the ease of use come into it at all?

Searing flames is a skill that can be played to high effect with very very very low skill input required. Does that in itself make it overpowered? I'd suggest it doesn't, however it DOES lead to a stale metagame where mid level players are only playing the skills that require nothing of them but still get results.

What do you think?

Where do you think the average skill level in Guild Wars is right now?
Average level is fairly good. Observer mode did a lot for the knowledge of low-end players.
However, there were certain members of several of last seasons top 20 guilds that couldnt even kite properly. The skill level of the top 100 is sitting somewhere below average and falling.

In summary, there are less useless players, but also less highly skilled players.

Do you think this is a good or bad thing for the game?
Bad, without a doubt. A game can survive as many bad players as you can throw at it whilever there are awesome players around to show what can be achieved and move the game forward.


Why do you think it's at the level it's at?
Poor skill balancing both in terms of quality and quantity.
GW had a great balance and a thriving competetive community before factions was released. Now it has no balance and good players are leaving on a dayly basis.


How do you think you rate personally in relation to the average player?
Top 10% of the PvP community but falling due to irregular play and lacking motivation.
In the whole of GW, no idea, but I'd suggest that the skill level of the PvP community is above that of the average PvE player.


How would you remedy the problem (if you think there is one)?
3 Things.

First - Either hire a new balance/PvP dev team or remove the red tape that stops them doing their job. Quite simply put, if my performance at work was like theirs recently i'd be job hunting.

Second - Stop adding new professions.

Finally - Fix VoD. Having the best build to nuke npcs come VoD isn't conducive to high player skill.


Have we begun to reach the upper level for the amount of skills the game is capable of working with?
No, I believe with regular balancing the game can handle many more skills. It is however getting beyond the limits for skill types. We need to see some counters to forms, weapon skills and shouts/chants before adding any other new concepts.

Are new professions too easy to play?
Assassin - No. A couple of NF skills makes it too easy, but those are skills rather than a problem with the profession.

Ritualist - Yes and No. Spirit spamming is too powerful for its difficulty level. There is potential however for builds that do require more skill.

Paragon - Yes. Leadership needs a heavy nerf. I'm not against party wide buffs, but they should be used at appropriate times rather then spammed.

Dervish - Unknown. The balance of dervish is too screwed up to comment on how easy/or not they are to play. Theoretically the answer is no, but as it stands there just too many overpowered things.

I tried doing a mission with a pug the other day, Pogahn Passage, tried once saturday afternoon, group failed miserably, sunday afternoon, totally different group, totally bad builds (im not even sure if the other monk had a full skill bar, spammed guardian, RoF and aegis only).

After not playing a month, I was hoping it (pugs) would improve, I can easily do the mission with heroes and henchies, that's what I did the first days of NF, but I want to play with PEOPLE, not henchies or heroes anymore at all.

I think there are 2 effects involved here.

First, Searing Flames is only a little overpowered.
In combination with Glowing Gaze it is VERY overpowered.

What makes a skill overpowered or not is the effect it has balanced against your opponents ability to counter it.
In the case of Searing Flames alone, the 1s cast time makes it a little too good. A 2s cast would allow easier interrupts and give monks an easier time protting. But used alone, it isn't really that good as a pressure tool, it eats too much energy.
BUT, Glowing Gaze was obviously designed to work with SF, and the combination of the two turns SF from a mediocre pressure skill to a very good one.

The other effect is a gradual dumbing down effect you referred to in your first post. SF, Grenth, SP, Paragons etc.
This effect cant be described as overpowered. The effect they have is to provide a smaller advantage to good players and a MUCH bigger one to bad players. This is a VERY undesirable effect, but I dont believe it is overpowered.

What GW needs is more skills like Blackout/Gale/Blinding Flash, which used by a highly skilled player can have a devastating effect, but used by poor ones do very little.
Skills like Grenth are more dangerous in the hands of a good player, but nothing like the gap with the skills I mentioned above.

My answers concern PvP
Where do you think the average skill level in Guild Wars is right now?
Below that of this time last year

Do you think this is a good or bad thing for the game?
Definitly bad

Why do you think it's at the level it's at?
Too many new professions and not enough skill balance.


How do you think you rate personally in relation to the average player?
Slightly above average

How would you remedy the problem (if you think there is one)?
Remove paragon and dervish from the game.

Have we begun to reach the upper level for the amount of skills the game is capable of working with?
Im certain the developers ran out of ideas for skills at the end of factions, most nightfall stuff is either overpowered junk.

Are new professions too easy to play?
Certainly, anyone can effectively play a dervish or paragon just by spamming any non consecutive sequence of skills, especially paragon, it requires no skill at all to play.

I also agree that all the other professions have been dumbed down with the new skills, it saddens me that mesmers are only used to spam SP over and over. What happened to the true masters of shutdown?

I must say the average lvl of skill in GW is mediocre. After seeing echoing mending, wammos with mending and healing hands, warriors with life transfer, monks tanking with daggers skills, this is the conclusion I take from this.

To me, a good player...

doesn't rage quit during a game. You do that after the game.

So I could be a good player whilst AFK?

I only go to RA if I'm in the need of a good laugh or simply to get a glad point. If I see the team hasn't got any future, I play the first game and after it I quit yes.
The last one I saw was a P/E with searing flames, liquid flame lol

Where do you think the average skill level in Guild Wars is right now?

The average overall, I would say is higher than it used to be. It's really only at the top that the dramatic decrease is there.

Do you think this is a good or bad thing for the game?

I really don't know. Skill levels are relative, but at the moment (especially with the current ladder system) the difference between the older generation of players compared to the newer high level is problematic. Right now the odds of facing a comparable guild is so low that guilds get inflated ranks. The ELO system is meant to get you to 50/50 once you've achieved your appropriate level, but as it is theres very few guilds that are at the highest level so most top teams have amazing records because theres no competition for them.

Why do you think it's at the level it's at?

Like other posters, I think its the dumbed down skills. Most average players will never play with the truly elite to discover how they play, communicate, or think about while playing (I'm not advocating anything against so called "rank elitism", as those top players want to play with *gasp* people as good as them). So, without instruction, its a trial and error - though admittedly one aided by information and discussion off high-end forums - up to the top. In prophesies, the teams realized what was wrong, and adjusted to it accordingly and kept up the process. Now, teams can win with an easy to run build and stop putting effort into improving themselves or even realizing that they need to improve.

How do you think you rate personally in relation to the average player?

I would say above average, I observe way above average (the times I can get on aren't when guildies/friends can, so I spend way too much time on observer), gvg whenever I can, read everything from top guild posters across guru/tgh/iq/qq, practice every class in RA, and try to implement things from observer/forums/my own experience into my preferred classes in GvG.

The problem is that players like myself have no benchmark. When you get to a point, there isn't a bright flashing neon sign that says "You're good now!". All we have is our egos and the relative pile of shit around us. I was playing with a friend of mine in HA the other day, he was on meds after surgery so he suggested we play zergway. He said something along the lines of "its the only build I can get fame with while i'm on my meds", which I think really explains the problem (I'm not saying the problem is zergway, its the idea, not the build itself). People can be successful without talent, or in the case of my friend, complete awareness, so they aren't motivated to improve, which leaves other players with bad benchmarks.

How would you remedy the problem (if you think there is one)?

The only way to fix the problem is to enact measures that make the top players want to stay in the game. Right now the only measure of how bad things are comes from facing those teams.

Have we begun to reach the upper level for the amount of skills the game is capable of working with?

I think so. The real problem lies with introducing new mechanics, but the effect of that filters into skills. A hex will always be a hex and always be removed by hex removing skills. Likewise with all (removable) existing mechanics. When you add new mechanics, new counters are needed and eventually its going to be impossible to counter them all. The new mechanics also need to be attractive enough to replace the old ones that fit into their roles. Shadow steps, earshot range shouts, weapon spells, and single party spirits have all (well, not really weapon spells, so far) caused issues when introduced because they make a rps situation.

But without new mechanics, people will run out of ideas and start improving upon older balanced skills. You end up with bsurge and lod. The bsurges make things less fun because it was a strong shutdown skill, that took player skill to use correctly. LoD is a version of a skill that really didn't take much skill to play, but were essential to have in a team and had to be placed on chars designed for using it. IMO, taking restrictions off of shutdown skills is a bad plan. but taking restrictions off of pure easy-to-use utility helps the game diversify, because you free up character slots.

Basically, if something is restrictive because it takes skill to play, don't dumb it down. If something is restrictive because it takes a specific setup to play, feel free to remove restrictions (if its not hurting balance that is).



Are new professions too easy to play?

Maybe, right now theres too many imbalances to know how they'll perform once they're evened out. Historically though, early rits were the most boring class to play. Early paragons took a close second. Sins took skill to play well (not counting soh/dp/fn), but thats mostly because they've been confined (until recently with guilds like eF and oink using multiple flagstand sins successfully) to ganking rolls. Dervs have yet to take on a skill position, though they might once they aren't 100 damage crit machines with cripple on hits and 3+ cheap mellee shatters with under ten second recharges.