Why skills matter in PvE
Pandora's box
Roleplaying in GW is very limited. e.g. I can't roleplay Shiro simply because I lack his skills, I am of a lower level, and I'm always a 'goody' fighting a 'baddy'. However I can pretend to roleplay Shiro by building a massive dmg dealing chr. Of course that fragile illusion of power is shattered on the moment the dmg. output gets nerfed too much. In that way skill balancing does affect 'roleplaying'...
The Ernada
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Originally Posted by Pandora's box
Roleplaying in GW is very limited. e.g. I can't roleplay Shiro simply because I lack his skills, I am of a lower level, and I'm always a 'goody' fighting a 'baddy'. However I can pretend to roleplay Shiro by building a massive dmg dealing chr. Of course that fragile illusion of power is shattered on the moment the dmg. output gets nerfed too much. In that way skill balancing does affect 'roleplaying'...
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Ashleigh McMahon
Less with the flaming please. Let's try to stick to facts and opinions without getting aggressive and insulting others opinions and play styles.
Thanks
Ashleigh
Thanks
Ashleigh
KamikazeChicken
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Originally Posted by ChaoticCoyote
Wrecking a skill/attribute line in PvE can ruin an existing character because the character can no longer be played as intended.
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kumarshah
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Originally Posted by KamikazeChicken
You can do almost everything with 7 hench and an empty skillbar.... I don't see how anet could ever ruin your character. Even if you don't feel the skill(s) is/are exactly what you desire, you can still use it without much fear of failing your objective.
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The truth is skill changes do affect PvE players, their builds, their strategies so when these changes are made without taking into consideration PvE players it hurts.
Njaiguni Blaze
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Originally Posted by Njaiguni Blaze
My last point is, most of PvE can even be done with an empty skill bar and some heroes and henchies.
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zwei2stein
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Originally Posted by Njaiguni Blaze
Zenchu, I'll quote myself. MOST of PvE can be done with an empty skill bar and some heroes and henchies.
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ther REST of PvE is what matters - elite missions and missions near end of storyline, you know, areas that are supposed to be challenging that actually require good build and teamwork.
i.e. nerf to wildblow suddenly made shiro-killing stategy in NF less effective.
Also, PvP ballances have huge collateral - i.e. my Assassin and my Ranger both use WYS to give party members nice armor boost. That was nerfed for PvP reason.
thats it, PvE people simply dont care, you go make your favourite build and then it gets changed because someone far far away finds it hard to fight against specific build, you get upset.
Then that person gets adapt stuff thrown at him. hell, adaptation should be optional - you go out to try new stuff because you feel like to and its fun, not because you have no choice - that is simply frustrating.
creelie
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Originally Posted by Zehnchu
Take Shiro on at the end of Factions and at the GoM with an empty skill bar, DoA, Fow, UW, RoT, let me know when you beat all those with an empty skill bar.
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Regarding the original topic of the post - that skill nerfs make a roleplayer sad - why? If you're already using suboptimal builds because they please you aesthetically, why would it bother you if they're made a little weaker? If your roleplaying characters just happen to all use popular, powerful cookie-cutter builds, why can't you adapt them to the changes in their world? I don't roleplay myself, but it's my understanding that there's a little more to it than one's chosen method of scrubbing red dots off the radar.
Skuld
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Originally Posted by zwei2stein
You can also win AB or RA being mending wammo...
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FoxBat
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Originally Posted by zwei2stein
You can also win AB or RA being mending wammo...
elite missions and missions near end of storyline, you know, areas that are supposed to be challenging that actually require good build and teamwork. |
Hard PvE = DoA and maybe Deep/Urgoz, the rest you can still do with anything. Only there do you see people complaining that their favorite class has no useful role. (IE build actually matters) Last I checked there were hardly any people in either of these places... so it may account for some of the constant complaints, but not many. The main cause of failure in other missions is generally bad teamwork and some stupid/greifer players, not build.
Njaiguni Blaze
Maybe it's because I never used Searing Flames? Oh, and Anet's got nothing on me and my Spiritual Pain! I still use it with succes. And calling me retarded? Sure, go on, I couldn't care less.
I never said skill changes don't effect PvE. I just said that the zomg bbq nurfzorz aren't that much of a problem in PvE if you ask me. And with 10 months of playing and too much hours, I can say that without being mentally challenged.
I never said skill changes don't effect PvE. I just said that the zomg bbq nurfzorz aren't that much of a problem in PvE if you ask me. And with 10 months of playing and too much hours, I can say that without being mentally challenged.
Mosch
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Originally Posted by creelie
Funny story! Last night, I was in Factions preparing to beat Shiro, and the leader started us without checking. I went in with Critical Eye, Resurrection Signet, and a flatbow. Also one of the nukers got err7 at the very beginning. We got Masters.
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Absolute Destiny
Um, I just had a thought towards solving this problem...
Okay, first, I recognized a looong time ago that GW is just a PvP game with a thin, shallow, poorly built world around it.
Accepting that has helped me ENJOY PvE more, by NOT comparing it to RPG giants like The Elder Scrolls that go for total immersion.
The problem here is that the discussion (and apparently ANet) is treating PvE and PvP like two sides of the same coin.
They are no such thing.
My suggestion:
Return skills to their original configurations in PvE, and leave them in their current state in PvP.
If a player wishes to bring a PvE character into an arena or the battle isles, a loading screen will inform him/her that his/her skills are being reconfigured for PvP play.
What I'm seeing from all this bickering, is that the bigger the gap between PvE and PvP within the game itself, the better.
Okay, first, I recognized a looong time ago that GW is just a PvP game with a thin, shallow, poorly built world around it.
Accepting that has helped me ENJOY PvE more, by NOT comparing it to RPG giants like The Elder Scrolls that go for total immersion.
The problem here is that the discussion (and apparently ANet) is treating PvE and PvP like two sides of the same coin.
They are no such thing.
My suggestion:
Return skills to their original configurations in PvE, and leave them in their current state in PvP.
If a player wishes to bring a PvE character into an arena or the battle isles, a loading screen will inform him/her that his/her skills are being reconfigured for PvP play.
What I'm seeing from all this bickering, is that the bigger the gap between PvE and PvP within the game itself, the better.
The Ernada
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Originally Posted by Absolute Destiny
Return skills to their original configurations in PvE, and leave them in their current state in PvP.
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Do you really think Anet has the resources to add to their workload of balancing skills when they're already spread so thin?
Do you honestly think no nerfs will occur in PVE even if a split happens even though in every MMO there are nerfs?
And do you really want skills to never change? Is that even fun?
And lastly do you really think people will stop complaining even after all that? I very much doubt it.
Absolute Destiny
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Originally Posted by The Ernada
1. Do you and all the other people suggesting this, really think it's realistic for the few hundred skills that we have now, suddenly double because of the split?
2. Do you really think Anet has the resources to add to their workload of balancing skills when they're already spread so thin? 3. Do you honestly think no nerfs will occur in PVE even if a split happens even though in every MMO there are nerfs? 4. And do you really want skills to never change? Is that even fun? 5. And lastly do you really think people will stop complaining even after all that? I very much doubt it. |
They can just reset the skills in PvE.
2. Let them spend their resources balancing skills in PvP.
3. I'm not worried about nerfs. But if they nerf them, I want the nerf to be happening BECAUSE OF SOMETHING IN PVE, no nerfing PvE because of PvP problems.
4. What's wrong with them never changing? I think it's fun to have a solid pool of skills to choose from at all times, not worrying about this or that skill getting castrated.
5. People who look for something to complain about will never stop complaining. The rest of us can enjoy the change.
Zinger314
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Originally Posted by Absolute Destiny
5. People who look for something to complain about will never stop complaining. The rest of us can enjoy the change.
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The Ernada
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Originally Posted by Absolute Destiny
4. What's wrong with them never changing? I think it's fun to have a solid pool of skills to choose from at all times, not worrying about this or that skill getting castrated.
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Zehnchu
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Originally Posted by dgb
Exactly what part of "most" do you not understand?
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next time you might want to add some meat to your post. just a suggestion.
myword
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Originally Posted by zwei2stein
All theese were using said builds pretty effectivelly and with monster level advantages quite deadly.
Yet you saw next to noone complaining about PvEing versus em. |
The Ernada
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Originally Posted by Zehnchu
Maybe it would be best to fully define your “Most” statement so all of here can see what you are talking about. Are we talking pre-searing or post-searing what about missions and boss, let’s not forget the huge exploreable areas and is that using just henchmen or just hero’s or combo of both, what class are we talking about too, ya know that “most” list is looking pretty small.
next time you might want to add some meat to your post. just a suggestion. |
Yeah I just lost brain cells....
HawkofStorms
I'm a primarly PvE player.
All these people whining just makes me sad. SKILLS ALWAYS change in GW. They do it like 4 times a year. If you can't handle that, stop playing, cause in a few months your just going to get pissed off again when your new cookie-cutter build is nerfed.
All these people whining just makes me sad. SKILLS ALWAYS change in GW. They do it like 4 times a year. If you can't handle that, stop playing, cause in a few months your just going to get pissed off again when your new cookie-cutter build is nerfed.
bug_out
Yay, another day, another PvE vs PvP thread. Guess what? Neither side wins and we all look like idiots.
Steps Ascending
some quick notes
1. Nerfs affect PvE simply because the same skills are used it PvE. Be it just a change in the build (or sometime change the entire build) the easy answer is just to adapt , but then why dont the PvP-er dont simply adapt or just use the FotM too(i think the strongest around is SF spam)
2. i got some one reminding that ANet has proved times and again that it favored PvP way-above PvE. -> Now that is THE argument! (i'm talking seriously) But then again that cannot be true, because the game would surely die with only PvP and if it stayed without montly fee(the adition of wich would surely be a blow for GW since i'm sure most smart people would switch for another game with better PvP (understand WoW).
3. Some one mentionned that GW was at first intended to test skill&wit instead of your avatar's strengh. Guess what I went far enough to forget that point. (/sarcasm) I though it was FotM vs whiners (/endsarcasm). Anyway thks for reminding me of the good old prophecy time. By the way how long do you think prophecy would have lasted with only PvP, I doubt it would have kept you around 2 years (i think that's the time it took for Faction to come out).
4.
And that's the forth intelligent being I meet on this forum (the others 2 being random people I've forgotten the names that got some really good points and myself who forgot the other 2 names so I probably shouldn't be in the 4 intelligents beings)
Finale : don't try to change PvE, accept it and catch the wave.
As a side note, to have actually fun PvE : PUG with 3-4 people max + 2 AI (group of 6 MAX for those that didn't get it), that way you're sure to have a group that will hold together and you can spot&kick the leavers/jerks. They also say that the peoples IQ is invertly (can I evan say it?) proportional to the nomber of individuals around him/her so the more people = the dumber they are.
AIs are there to fill the holes and help you when you can't find anyone.
Edit :
Hehehe I found the fifth inteligent being around.
1. Nerfs affect PvE simply because the same skills are used it PvE. Be it just a change in the build (or sometime change the entire build) the easy answer is just to adapt , but then why dont the PvP-er dont simply adapt or just use the FotM too(i think the strongest around is SF spam)
2. i got some one reminding that ANet has proved times and again that it favored PvP way-above PvE. -> Now that is THE argument! (i'm talking seriously) But then again that cannot be true, because the game would surely die with only PvP and if it stayed without montly fee(the adition of wich would surely be a blow for GW since i'm sure most smart people would switch for another game with better PvP (understand WoW).
3. Some one mentionned that GW was at first intended to test skill&wit instead of your avatar's strengh. Guess what I went far enough to forget that point. (/sarcasm) I though it was FotM vs whiners (/endsarcasm). Anyway thks for reminding me of the good old prophecy time. By the way how long do you think prophecy would have lasted with only PvP, I doubt it would have kept you around 2 years (i think that's the time it took for Faction to come out).
4.
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Okay, first, I recognized a looong time ago that GW is just a PvP game with a thin, shallow, poorly built world around it. Accepting that has helped me ENJOY PvE more, by NOT comparing it to RPG giants like The Elder Scrolls that go for total immersion |
Finale : don't try to change PvE, accept it and catch the wave.
As a side note, to have actually fun PvE : PUG with 3-4 people max + 2 AI (group of 6 MAX for those that didn't get it), that way you're sure to have a group that will hold together and you can spot&kick the leavers/jerks. They also say that the peoples IQ is invertly (can I evan say it?) proportional to the nomber of individuals around him/her so the more people = the dumber they are.
AIs are there to fill the holes and help you when you can't find anyone.
Edit :
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| Yay, another day, another PvE vs PvP thread. Guess what? Neither side wins and we all look like idiots. |
Vermilion
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Okay, first, I recognized a looong time ago that GW is just a PvP game with a thin, shallow, poorly built world around it. Accepting that has helped me ENJOY PvE more, by NOT comparing it to RPG giants like The Elder Scrolls that go for total immersion |
Lonesamurai
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Originally Posted by Absolute Destiny
Um, I just had a thought towards solving this problem...
Okay, first, I recognized a looong time ago that GW is just a PvP game with a thin, shallow, poorly built world around it. Accepting that has helped me ENJOY PvE more, by NOT comparing it to RPG giants like The Elder Scrolls that go for total immersion. The problem here is that the discussion (and apparently ANet) is treating PvE and PvP like two sides of the same coin. They are no such thing. |
Guild Wars
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Originally Posted by Absolute Destiny
My suggestion:
Return skills to their original configurations in PvE, and leave them in their current state in PvP. If a player wishes to bring a PvE character into an arena or the battle isles, a loading screen will inform him/her that his/her skills are being reconfigured for PvP play. What I'm seeing from all this bickering, is that the bigger the gap between PvE and PvP within the game itself, the better. |
Cebe
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Originally Posted by FoxBat
Spiritual Pain.
Suddenly players have to actually think a little when using Domination, again. Scary!  |
Anyhoo, it didn't take a lot of thinking about to re-build by Domination build. I just reverted back to an old build which hasn't been nerfed to hell...but now I'm using Hex Eater Vortex instead of Energy Surge. But wait. Why, since they were in the mood, did they not nerf Hex Eater Vortex so that instead of dealing 126 damage to all adjacant foes and removing one enchantment it actually deals 10 damage to one adjacent foe and no longer removes enchantments - wouldn't that make it more "fair"? *sigh* I hate PvP... And yes, I'm bitter.
The Abbott
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Originally Posted by unienaule
Ok. Here's how it works. The reason PvE people seem to only complain that skills shouldn't get nerfed is because the broken/overpowered skills are NEVER USED AGAINST THEM (the PvEers) EFFECTIVELY IF AT ALL. If the monster AI took new builds and exploited the current skill changes like players do, PvEers would demand the same nerfs that PvPers do.
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I'm 27 years old so I'm far from immature or ignorant and the guy I just quoted above has just made me look at things from a whole different perspective, I suppose when a game shares two genres this is gonna happen. None of us (pve) should get upset by this and just see it as the future of the game.
Basically its 1 skillset shared by two different communities, its inevitable one side is gonna lose out occasionally when changes are made.
creelie
It's not always the PvP usage of a skill that leads to a nerf, either. Remember Spirit Bond?
dgb
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Originally Posted by Zehnchu
Maybe it would be best to fully define your “Most” statement so all of here can see what you are talking about. Are we talking pre-searing or post-searing what about missions and boss, let’s not forget the huge exploreable areas and is that using just henchmen or just hero’s or combo of both, what class are we talking about too, ya know that “most” list is looking pretty small.
next time you might want to add some meat to your post. just a suggestion. |
Throughout Elona, with no exception, I felt perfectly comfortable agroing a mob, then either going afk or alt-tabbing knowing well that when I come back, the mob will be dead and my group will have minimum DP. The only time this didn't occur is when I messed up a patrol set and in my absence ended up with a double or tripple aggro situation. For single aggro situations, for the most I didn't even need to be playing, let alone having any skills on my bar.
Throughout Cantha, all except the Shiro'ken infested areas and the well designed Jade Brotherhood mobs in the city I felt I could do the same.
I haven't done enough of Tyria to comment.
Enough meat for you?
In my experience, the only thing that makes PVE hard for players is their insistence on using retarded builds.
The Abbott
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Originally Posted by dgb
Ok, here goes. I'm primarily a PVP player. That said, I have something of a liking for my monk. In fact it has two grand master cartographer titles and on the way to the third - I feel that I've killed a lot of PVE monsters getting these.
Throughout Elona, with no exception, I felt perfectly comfortable agroing a mob, then either going afk or alt-tabbing knowing well that when I come back, the mob will be dead and my group will have minimum DP. The only time this didn't occur is when I messed up a patrol set and in my absence ended up with a double or tripple aggro situation. For single aggro situations, for the most I didn't even need to be playing, let alone having any skills on my bar. Throughout Cantha, all except the Shiro'ken infested areas and the well designed Jade Brotherhood mobs in the city I felt I could do the same. I haven't done enough of Tyria to comment. Enough meat for you? In my experience, the only thing that makes PVE hard for players is their insistence on using retarded builds. |
and of course just your henchmen are good enough for most of the game.. that IS what they are there for remember.. to be a party for you, I mean if the henchmen werent good enough to do any mission at all then why have them? just get rid of them and make it a 100% group game. but we know thats not gonna happen as people need help when they have no one else to ask..
Moa Bird Cultist
Yup, yet another PvE Vs PvP flamefest.
The fact of the matter is skill balances will continue to occur, no matter what the circumstances. It can't be avoided, so it's best to just accept it as a part of the game. Although I still don't like the sandstorm nerf. It was way too over the top and anyone with half a brain can see that. Still, my ele can just go back to her old build, (which btw, is really very retarded
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The fact of the matter is skill balances will continue to occur, no matter what the circumstances. It can't be avoided, so it's best to just accept it as a part of the game. Although I still don't like the sandstorm nerf. It was way too over the top and anyone with half a brain can see that. Still, my ele can just go back to her old build, (which btw, is really very retarded
Lonesamurai
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Originally Posted by The Abbott
I am completly PVE and have always got angry at PVP people demanding nerfs,
I'm 27 years old so I'm far from immature or ignorant and the guy I just quoted above has just made me look at things from a whole different perspective, I suppose when a game shares two genres this is gonna happen. None of us (pve) should get upset by this and just see it as the future of the game. Basically its 1 skillset shared by two different communities, its inevitable one side is gonna lose out occasionally when changes are made. |
Ok, we all know (or hopefully know) why skills are balanced (?) around PvP, but alot of PvE'ers don't think to ask why a skill was changed, nor do i think that PvP'ers can be bothered dealing with "n00bs" long enough to explain why (nor do they have the patience)... This is where ANet need to give us more information...
Ok, Izzy can't explain the entire 120 skill balance, but it would be nice for the testers to actually go through some of the reasons for skill changes (balances and nerfs), the Pvp community are just as up in arms about some as the Pve community is... there are some balances and nerfs in the last update that are the complete opposite of what is needed, with no explanation for them...
More info is a must ANet! Tell us why you did some of these!!!
Priest Of Sin
To those saying that people are smarter than monster AI, take this into consideration. My friend and I ran an ele spike in HA. Basically, we had 2 ele heroes heach, and we were running water snare eles. The 2 ele heroes would use arcane echo+sandstorm+sandtorm, that's x8 sandstorm. My friend and I would keep them snared in the sandstorm, and we got around 90 fame off this strategy. We blew away Zergway, SomW, SF, and all the other cookie-cutter builds. This experience has led me to believe that the average PvPer is as dumb as the average monster. But to a PvEer, AoE is instant death (DoA monsters and AoE don't mix), so the PvEer will scatter faster than vermin after the AI update. Kinda ironic that the last person alive on each team we obliterated was clearly a PvE character.
Ashleigh McMahon
I just had to remove a whole load of posts that completely ignored my previous request. Please keep down the insults or I'll be forced to close this thread.
Thanks
Ashleigh.
Thanks
Ashleigh.
Alleji
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Originally Posted by zwei2stein
Oh come on, every PvEr had his chance to experience:
* SF nuker (aka Djinns) * Sandstorm nuker (aka Crags) * Iway warrior (aka white mantle) * Ranger Spikers (Aviacra ranger groups) * Touchers (Stygian something) |
Do those SF djinns have monk support? Come in groups of 3+ at once? (Ok, occasionally they do) Have 8 skills on their bar? Have a brain?
Same applies to "sandstorm nukers"... the damage from a boss's sandstorm is comparable to a sandstorm ball team in HA, but that's about it.
Mantle = IWAY warriors? I don't know, but IWAY warriors I faced had more than IWAY and power attack on their bars... and they were lvl 20 too, I think.
Avicara ranger groups are probably one of the nastiest things in PvE, I have to agree with you there. Still, it doesn't compare to a ranger spike. You can't prot up your wammo and have him aggro a ranger spike team, while the rest of your party nukes their spikers.
Bastian
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Originally Posted by Absolute Destiny
1. Yes it is realistic, because it requires almost no effort on the part of Anet.
They can just reset the skills in PvE. |
Please, the next time you say something is realistic, requires almost no effort, and assume that things would still cost the same - don't open your mouth right away. You are flat out wrong. Have you ever tried programming anything, let alone an entire game as in depth as GW? All while making sure the game interacts seemlessly between at least 5 continents? I know I haven't, but I have enough common sense to know it's probably not easy.
Str0b0
This is why PvP and PvE should be completely and utterly separated and in no way shape or form dependent on one another. They should have different skill tables for PvP ala Everquest, and anyone wanting to take a PvE character to PvP should be forced to switch to the PvP version of the skill. As for this PvP attitude fest here, though I expect it from this forum, Get over yourselves. We paid the same 50 bucks, or more, as you people did and are therefore entitled to whine and complain and piss and moan as much as you people do, and you people do! Don't tell me that PvP doesn't whine and cry as much as PvE because I'll go back through the post history, or hell just look in Gladiators Arena and look up all the whiney posts about Mystic Regen just to name one.
That being said if you don't like PvE then don't knock it and don't insult the other players with snide remarks about empty skillbars and ridiculous ease and such. All those are are catty and backhanded insults and just barely under the radar flames. How about you just stick to your PvP and when you see someone whining and crying about nerfs in PvE then just shake your head and move on while remembering that we paid for the game too and are as entitled as you are to whine about it. For those of you who play both, that still doesn't justify your crap either so don't make catty comments and then hide behind the screen of being a PvE player too. That's just cowardly. At least have the conviction to stand by your insulting remarks.
That being said if you don't like PvE then don't knock it and don't insult the other players with snide remarks about empty skillbars and ridiculous ease and such. All those are are catty and backhanded insults and just barely under the radar flames. How about you just stick to your PvP and when you see someone whining and crying about nerfs in PvE then just shake your head and move on while remembering that we paid for the game too and are as entitled as you are to whine about it. For those of you who play both, that still doesn't justify your crap either so don't make catty comments and then hide behind the screen of being a PvE player too. That's just cowardly. At least have the conviction to stand by your insulting remarks.
Shmanka
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Originally Posted by Priest Of Sin
To those saying that people are smarter than monster AI, take this into consideration. My friend and I ran an ele spike in HA. Basically, we had 2 ele heroes heach, and we were running water snare eles. The 2 ele heroes would use arcane echo+sandstorm+sandtorm, that's x8 sandstorm. My friend and I would keep them snared in the sandstorm, and we got around 90 fame off this strategy. We blew away Zergway, SomW, SF, and all the other cookie-cutter builds. This experience has led me to believe that the average PvPer is as dumb as the average monster. But to a PvEer, AoE is instant death (DoA monsters and AoE don't mix), so the PvEer will scatter faster than vermin after the AI update. Kinda ironic that the last person alive on each team we obliterated was clearly a PvE character.
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I can go outside right now and say that all cars are red on the basis that I see only 2 cars right now outside in the parking lot. Your basis of 90 fame is pretty unrealistic for an analysis on the "average pvp'er".
There is skill applied in PvE though I agree, yet I see people comparing it as the "same" skill PvP and PvE share. This I find untrue.
PvE has the following; Routine patrols, specific spawn locations, skill priority
PvP has the following; Personal preference, random environments, no knowledge of the opponent
PvE is being prepared to take on something you know is there, when PvP is not and when you fail, you lose.
PvE takes a different kind of "skill" by the basis of "knowledge" and for those who use heroes like you would yourself that is amazing. At the moment I am finally starting to get the hang of monking being an elementalist at the same time, it is quite difficult for me anyway even in the PvE environment.
PvP skill takes on the aspect of making builds where in a Rock Paper Scissors format your trying to find the TNT that blows them all away. This comes to the "skill" on the basis of "understanding" you have to be able to comprehend what happens in mere seconds to have a solution with your build. If not you fail.
What is more difficult to gain a grasp of? I would say PvP IMO. I fell in love with PvE quite easily yet I still find PvP challenging in some aspects.
Steps Ascending
could be interesting to look at other games where the Pve/PvP war is not so ... hot. And look a bit at what makes it more balanced.
FoxBat
A clearer way to put it is like this: PvE has a fixed difficulty, and therefore your team only needs to reach a certain level of efficiency to be viable. You can just barely meet that level or you can vastly overshoot it, either way you win. In PvP you are randomly paired against opponents, some of them who may be very good. You don't need an effecient build to beat four w/mos in TA, but you just might need a very efficient one when facing grenth derv/thump/mes/monk team. PvP players therefore generally try to maximize their team's efficiency so they have a better chance of defeating the most difficult opponents.
Throughout basically anything but the elite missions, GW PvE has the difficulty bar set low enough that there are many, many viable builds, and far more than there are in PvP. In this situation, skill balance doesn't seem that vital. But hop on over to a game like WoW, where PvP is something of a joke, and classes are constantly nerfed and buffed based primarly on PvE. This is because much more of WoW is devoted to "elite mission" equivalents, raiding. There are places where you need to hit a certain DPS just to not get wiped, or use a certain combination of abilities with a mostly fixed team balance, etc. The difficulty is still fixed but it is set higher than much of GW, and efficiency is also a more pressing concern when it takes several hours to complete a dungeon. Thus when one class overshadows another to the point that people always want class A and ignore class B, there is a need for rebalance, nerfs to A, and buffs to B, otherwise the end result is class B is effectively removed from the game because no-one will play it or can use it.
So basically, the fact that almost no-one can see the need for any nerfs in PvE... just proves the point that build efficiency isn't very important to PvE. Because if it was, we might see PvE players talking about balancing out the classes so SF eles and MMs stop being the only choices for 99% of the game... but mostly we just hear the SFs and MMs whining when they get nerfed.
Throughout basically anything but the elite missions, GW PvE has the difficulty bar set low enough that there are many, many viable builds, and far more than there are in PvP. In this situation, skill balance doesn't seem that vital. But hop on over to a game like WoW, where PvP is something of a joke, and classes are constantly nerfed and buffed based primarly on PvE. This is because much more of WoW is devoted to "elite mission" equivalents, raiding. There are places where you need to hit a certain DPS just to not get wiped, or use a certain combination of abilities with a mostly fixed team balance, etc. The difficulty is still fixed but it is set higher than much of GW, and efficiency is also a more pressing concern when it takes several hours to complete a dungeon. Thus when one class overshadows another to the point that people always want class A and ignore class B, there is a need for rebalance, nerfs to A, and buffs to B, otherwise the end result is class B is effectively removed from the game because no-one will play it or can use it.
So basically, the fact that almost no-one can see the need for any nerfs in PvE... just proves the point that build efficiency isn't very important to PvE. Because if it was, we might see PvE players talking about balancing out the classes so SF eles and MMs stop being the only choices for 99% of the game... but mostly we just hear the SFs and MMs whining when they get nerfed.