Note: This is not a complaint, or rant, it's a question..
Has anyone else experienced this, Hero healers cannot keep up with hencie healers in intense fights? (I never thought I'd say this, but) Menhlo, etc can really out heal and regenerate faster it seems, than the heroes can. The Heroes seem to be only as fast as player healers.
Anyone else experience this? If so any ideas why?
Hero Healers vs Henchie Healers
Enchanted Warrior
daky
I would take my hero over a hench anyday. You have just yet to find a build that works for you.
Makkert
Maybe its the build you gave your hero?
Maybe its how your hero uses the skills you gave him (keep the herobar up to see what he does).
Maybe its the setting you gave your hero: aggressive? avoid combat? or defensive (useful for [skill]Power Drain[/skill])?
Maybe its how your hero uses the skills you gave him (keep the herobar up to see what he does).
Maybe its the setting you gave your hero: aggressive? avoid combat? or defensive (useful for [skill]Power Drain[/skill])?
Coloneh
No, you just need to manage you heroes right. if your choosing the skills you can drop all the crappy stuff henchies take (i.e. healing breeze) and disable their rez and add in some good skills (dawanya's kiss anyone?). also their reactions are just as fast.
Mr_Cynical
I don't know why, but my heros seem to spend most of their time doing nothing (regardless of whether they're set to Attack, Guard or Passive), ignoring the several Jade Brotherhood (or insertothermonster) chopping them and my party to bits. I've tried various builds - WoH healer, Restore Conditions prot, etc. etc. and none seem to work. Unless I can work out what's wrong I'm gonna start taking monk henchies instead and take a extra offensive hero or two.
Enchanted Warrior
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Cynical
I don't know why, but my heros seem to spend most of their time doing nothing (regardless of whether they're set to Attack, Guard or Passive), ignoring the several Jade Brotherhood (or insertothermonster) chopping them and my party to bits. I've tried various builds - WoH healer, Restore Conditions prot, etc. etc. and none seem to work. Unless I can work out what's wrong I'm gonna start taking monk henchies instead and take a extra offensive hero or two.
/Agree
Some mobs go right for the healers, others go for the MM, etc.. It wasn't that way at first, so the devs might be responding to complaints about no more pugs IMHO. My MM ruled the first week I had him, now he's mostly a pain, (Master of whispers), minions wander, or stand and watch etc.. but Olias (You have to have access to Prophecies to obtain him) is killer. Same build (MM from Guild wiki). So I am learning some heroes are better than others. Like Zhed (Centaur), if you make him anything but ranger he's useless, he either runs in and wants to fight hand to hand when set to guard, or stands there doing nothing on avoid. I put mine in storage and use Acolyte Sousuke.
Some mobs go right for the healers, others go for the MM, etc.. It wasn't that way at first, so the devs might be responding to complaints about no more pugs IMHO. My MM ruled the first week I had him, now he's mostly a pain, (Master of whispers), minions wander, or stand and watch etc.. but Olias (You have to have access to Prophecies to obtain him) is killer. Same build (MM from Guild wiki). So I am learning some heroes are better than others. Like Zhed (Centaur), if you make him anything but ranger he's useless, he either runs in and wants to fight hand to hand when set to guard, or stands there doing nothing on avoid. I put mine in storage and use Acolyte Sousuke.
Shady79
you can delete it yourself: edit -> delete this post
pingu666
i think sometimes they go abit useless...
JoeKnowMo
Heroes tend to use their skills in order of priority from left to right. There are also some skills that they won't use or will use just at specific times (probably not when you want them to). By re-arranging their skill bars and varying their skills and then watching what they do, you'll get a better idea of how to setup their builds.
In PvE, I find that higher dmg is more desirable and I find the healer hench are usually capable of keeping the party alive. Hence, I usually take offensive heroes, often with a couple of interupts each (power drain, leech sig).
In PvE, I find that higher dmg is more desirable and I find the healer hench are usually capable of keeping the party alive. Hence, I usually take offensive heroes, often with a couple of interupts each (power drain, leech sig).
FoxBat
Heroes play alot of good player-monk bars extremely badly. You need to construct them specially to avoid them wasting their energy. For example, in most of the game, I'd consider protective spirit a waste. It will be overcasted quite a bit when not needed, draining that 10e fast. You don't want to hand them things like blessed light, divert hexes, restore conditions, or even mend ailment, since they will use it at the slighest sign of either regardless of the player's health bar. Sticking GoLE on their bar is no garuntee they will use it on Aegis (unless you do this manually) and so on. And of course, mes inspiration interrupts are a good idea. Channeling might work for you too. I'll even use divine intervention because it's cheap and efficient, the healers respect and let you get hit until it triggers, it's generally not a risk in PvE, and it is better than filling their bar with things that they waste their energy on constantly when it's only needed occasionally.
strcpy
Their AI is the same - give them the same skill bar and they will perform the same. Tis true of any of the hero/hench - Sousuke isn't anymore or less effective than Zhed - they just have different skins.
When you have more control over something that means you can screw them up. It isn't hard to create a skill bar that eats up energy with little heals - in fact that tends to be easier than making one that works well.
If you check guildwiki you will note that Mhenlo has a small, simple skill bar. I would suggest starting with that build and test changes in *one* skill at a time until/unless you understand how to create builds from watching the the AI's skill bar.
Personally I find them to run an RC prot monk (ATNxAfMUDKahZKw6FQTIAA) set to defensive quite well - better than most humans. Though I haven't found a healing prayers build that is much better than the henchies yet.
When you have more control over something that means you can screw them up. It isn't hard to create a skill bar that eats up energy with little heals - in fact that tends to be easier than making one that works well.
If you check guildwiki you will note that Mhenlo has a small, simple skill bar. I would suggest starting with that build and test changes in *one* skill at a time until/unless you understand how to create builds from watching the the AI's skill bar.
Personally I find them to run an RC prot monk (ATNxAfMUDKahZKw6FQTIAA) set to defensive quite well - better than most humans. Though I haven't found a healing prayers build that is much better than the henchies yet.
Enchanted Warrior
" Their AI is the same - give them the same skill bar and they will perform the same. Tis true of any of the hero/hench - Sousuke isn't anymore or less effective than Zhed - they just have different skins."
Nope sorry you're wrong. Zhed runs in Sou' doesn't. I read that some heroes are "smarter" than others or act more aggressive than others. Goren for example is said to be strong but not real bright.
That said I am working on builds based on wiki and guru suggestions on related builds and I am doing way better (Lil tip, use/buy/loot the proper weapons for your hero casters etc, with 1/2 rec and 1/2 cast etc, based on their skills used. It REALLY matters).
current monk hero skills:
Nope sorry you're wrong. Zhed runs in Sou' doesn't. I read that some heroes are "smarter" than others or act more aggressive than others. Goren for example is said to be strong but not real bright.
That said I am working on builds based on wiki and guru suggestions on related builds and I am doing way better
(Lil tip, use/buy/loot the proper weapons for your hero casters etc, with 1/2 rec and 1/2 cast etc, based on their skills used. It REALLY matters).current monk hero skills:
Evilsod
I tend to use Healer hench...
They're builds are tried and tested and leaves me 3 Hero slots to bring things that can either kill or aid defence.
They're builds are tried and tested and leaves me 3 Hero slots to bring things that can either kill or aid defence.
gogoblender
When heroes first came out I was always using heroe monks.
Then after reading a ton about how placing our efforrs and risk with damage and building our teams with huge destruction I opted to switch in henchie monks and use Zed, mm/archer, and Paragon.
The damage got so huge...
Never used a hero monk ever again
gogo
Then after reading a ton about how placing our efforrs and risk with damage and building our teams with huge destruction I opted to switch in henchie monks and use Zed, mm/archer, and Paragon.
The damage got so huge...
Never used a hero monk ever again
gogo
strcpy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enchanted Warrior
Nope sorry you're wrong. Zhed runs in Sou' doesn't. I read that some heroes are "smarter" than others or act more aggressive than others. Goren for example is said to be strong but not real bright.
Both do the same for me, depended on setting, skills, and items. When I have them equipped identical (I sometimes run them both as a dual SF team, though currently one carries mark of rodgort and the other steam) they both run in or they both stay, rarely does one do it and the other not. I swap Goren for Koss all the time, I have them set up the same and I sometimes get tired of watching Koss run around - still haven't seen how Goren is stupid regardless of what the in game description of him is. Nor have I seen Dunkoro be particularly planning ahead in combat any more than Tahlkora, Margrid favor treasure/gold while questing, or any of the other things said in their description when you get them - though their cut scenes, dialog, and in game speech fit those models
In fact, if given the same skills they *all* do pretty much the same thing. Make Tahlkora a SF ele and she does the same as the real eles (just not very good damage wise as can not go above 12 in a skill).
Right now, everything we know and have been told say that they are the same. The enemy AI is the same as our heroes which is the same as the henchies.
As far as I know the devs have not specifically stated, just as "leftmost skill is higher priority" is simply from playing around with the heroes. In this instance you can find a few who swear they test it and see no difference in position, yet the vast majority of players *do* see a difference as they are swapped around on the bar. Is left most a higher priority absolutely correct? Dunno, just as I can't be 100% sure they are the same AI. However, I can be sure there are no substantial differences and position does effect skill usage just from testing.
*shrug* have at it though. Doesn't really matter. You can happily believe that Goren is stupid and figure it does whatever to his skill usage or that Sousuke is much better. Without the devs telling what they did we will never know for sure. Until then, do what works for you.
Both do the same for me, depended on setting, skills, and items. When I have them equipped identical (I sometimes run them both as a dual SF team, though currently one carries mark of rodgort and the other steam) they both run in or they both stay, rarely does one do it and the other not. I swap Goren for Koss all the time, I have them set up the same and I sometimes get tired of watching Koss run around - still haven't seen how Goren is stupid regardless of what the in game description of him is. Nor have I seen Dunkoro be particularly planning ahead in combat any more than Tahlkora, Margrid favor treasure/gold while questing, or any of the other things said in their description when you get them - though their cut scenes, dialog, and in game speech fit those modelsIn fact, if given the same skills they *all* do pretty much the same thing. Make Tahlkora a SF ele and she does the same as the real eles (just not very good damage wise as can not go above 12 in a skill).
Right now, everything we know and have been told say that they are the same. The enemy AI is the same as our heroes which is the same as the henchies.
As far as I know the devs have not specifically stated, just as "leftmost skill is higher priority" is simply from playing around with the heroes. In this instance you can find a few who swear they test it and see no difference in position, yet the vast majority of players *do* see a difference as they are swapped around on the bar. Is left most a higher priority absolutely correct? Dunno, just as I can't be 100% sure they are the same AI. However, I can be sure there are no substantial differences and position does effect skill usage just from testing.
*shrug* have at it though. Doesn't really matter. You can happily believe that Goren is stupid and figure it does whatever to his skill usage or that Sousuke is much better. Without the devs telling what they did we will never know for sure. Until then, do what works for you.
Moa Bird Cultist
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilsod
I tend to use Healer hench...
They're builds are tried and tested and leaves me 3 Hero slots to bring things that can either kill or aid defence. My sentiments exactly. Bear in mind that Mhenlo and his buddies have a far more focused skill bar than some, ie, <8 skills, not necessarily a bad thing where AI is concerned. And especially in Nightfall, I'd take Mhenlo and Khim over any hero build, they're that good. And besides, there are far more decent offensive hero builds, such as "Dr Olias Goes To Hell" et al.
They're builds are tried and tested and leaves me 3 Hero slots to bring things that can either kill or aid defence. My sentiments exactly. Bear in mind that Mhenlo and his buddies have a far more focused skill bar than some, ie, <8 skills, not necessarily a bad thing where AI is concerned. And especially in Nightfall, I'd take Mhenlo and Khim over any hero build, they're that good. And besides, there are far more decent offensive hero builds, such as "Dr Olias Goes To Hell" et al.
SnipiousMax
I wouldnt' call the Henchies Healers good....
But the point does remain, that you have a choice between Good Healing/protection with a lousy offense, or a really good offense with adequate healing/protection/passive stuff. I'd prefer to have my heros on the offensive.
But the point does remain, that you have a choice between Good Healing/protection with a lousy offense, or a really good offense with adequate healing/protection/passive stuff. I'd prefer to have my heros on the offensive.
bungusmaximus
Henchie heroes run healing breeze, need I say more? Breeze sucks a gulf ball through a garden hose really, with all the enchant hate around it hurts more then it heals. I do agree with most ppl that there's only 3 spots for heroes, so I mostly run one hero monk (who does most of the work, go figure) and a hench. Paired with the paragon hench in Nightfall I can be sure my party is protected well.
Seef II
I take either both heroes or both henchies. Mixing them has less synergy than I'd like. Note that in nightfall, the healer henchies don't have hex removal. It's not a problem since the game isn't hex-heavy until the desolation, where you have wurms, but in Torment the water snares and degen might overload them.
But that's what [skill]light of deliverance[/skill] is for.
But that's what [skill]light of deliverance[/skill] is for.
bhavv
My hero monks are fine and 100% better then henchies with the builds I give them. I just wish they could use power drain on passive mode. 
bungusmaximus
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhavv
My hero monks are fine and 100% better then henchies with the builds I give them. I just wish they could use power drain on passive mode.
Don't need, just take eve along, shell fuel your monk heroes with BR. I never use home without either her or a custom made battery hero. Dunkoro and Tahlkore think energy management is some sort of foreign food, and they don't like foreign food :P
Don't need, just take eve along, shell fuel your monk heroes with BR. I never use home without either her or a custom made battery hero. Dunkoro and Tahlkore think energy management is some sort of foreign food, and they don't like foreign food :P
Faer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enchanted Warrior
Admael
Quote:
Originally Posted by Faer
I would suggest you swap those builds around, as, in my experience at least, Tahlkora makes a better Protection Monk than a Healer, and the reverse is also true about Dunkoro.
That's not true, both have the same AI.
I think it mainly depends on what profession you use on your character.
On my ranger, both my monks are set to passive and on my elementalist, both the monks are set to defend. On hex heavy maps, the monk (either or) will use revealed hex and inspired hex for energy management, on regular maps my ranger will swap out Tahlkora's(healing) hex removal for glyph of lesser energy and vigorous spirit. On my elementalist, on both Dunkoro and Tahlkora will use both hex removals as well, and on regular maps, both monks will swap out one hex removal for channeling (since they are on defend on my elementalist, they will not reposition away from monsters unless they are being attacking heavily)
Females heal, males protect. Simple ethology. Thats why most of us setup our heroes the way we do, contrary to how they were initially setup.
I think it mainly depends on what profession you use on your character.
On my ranger, both my monks are set to passive and on my elementalist, both the monks are set to defend. On hex heavy maps, the monk (either or) will use revealed hex and inspired hex for energy management, on regular maps my ranger will swap out Tahlkora's(healing) hex removal for glyph of lesser energy and vigorous spirit. On my elementalist, on both Dunkoro and Tahlkora will use both hex removals as well, and on regular maps, both monks will swap out one hex removal for channeling (since they are on defend on my elementalist, they will not reposition away from monsters unless they are being attacking heavily)
Females heal, males protect. Simple ethology. Thats why most of us setup our heroes the way we do, contrary to how they were initially setup.
bilateralrope
Quote:
Originally Posted by strcpy
(just not very good damage wise as can not go above 12 in a skill).
Try sticking runes on your heroes armor.
Hengis
Is it just me, or has Dunkero been particularly stupid the last few days?
I have never had amny issues with him before. OK, so the AI may not be perfect, but it is generally more than good enough.
Yesterday however, I had him playing his usual WoH build, and all he would do was spam Orison of Healing on everyone until he ran out of energy, or died. He didn't even use the conditions removal on himself, and seemed reluctant to heal himself even when down to 25% health and with plenty of energy available.
I have not seen him play this badly before.
I have never had amny issues with him before. OK, so the AI may not be perfect, but it is generally more than good enough.
Yesterday however, I had him playing his usual WoH build, and all he would do was spam Orison of Healing on everyone until he ran out of energy, or died. He didn't even use the conditions removal on himself, and seemed reluctant to heal himself even when down to 25% health and with plenty of energy available.
I have not seen him play this badly before.
strcpy
Quote:
Originally Posted by bilateralrope
Try sticking runes on your heroes armor.
OMG - who would'a think it!
When you can figure out how to apply ele runes to Tahlkora (a monk), get back to me. Until then she can not do decent damage due to not being able to get an ele attribute line above 12 (though setting her skill bar up as one does demonstrate the point I was making - she also has the same AI as the two ele's and mirrors their skill usage with the same skill bar).
Reading comprehension FTW!!!
When you can figure out how to apply ele runes to Tahlkora (a monk), get back to me. Until then she can not do decent damage due to not being able to get an ele attribute line above 12 (though setting her skill bar up as one does demonstrate the point I was making - she also has the same AI as the two ele's and mirrors their skill usage with the same skill bar).
Reading comprehension FTW!!!
lundis
I usually bring tahlkora as prot monk and then just the healer hench.. that works fine for me.. and it doesn't matter if the healer hench dies, tahlkora can keep the party alive alone..
DMG reduction ftw: shielding hands, shield of absorption and life sheath
DMG reduction ftw: shielding hands, shield of absorption and life sheath
lundis
Quote:
Originally Posted by strcpy
OMG - who would'a think it!
When you can figure out how to apply ele runes to Tahlkora (a monk), get back to me. Until then she can not do decent damage due to not being able to get an ele attribute line above 12 (though setting her skill bar up as one does demonstrate the point I was making - she also has the same AI as the two ele's and mirrors their skill usage with the same skill bar).
Reading comprehension FTW!!! lol if you want a SF ele then don't use tahlkora.. give the build to zhed or sousuke
Btw I usually have 2 SF ele heroes when i play, and the difference is:
zhed's energy is 20
sousuke's energy is 68
(it's ALWAYS like that so it's not just a coincidence)
Now that this mean that sousuke isn't aggressive at all OR is he a pro at using the energy management skills?
hmm i realized this is offtopic but i just wanted to say it..
When you can figure out how to apply ele runes to Tahlkora (a monk), get back to me. Until then she can not do decent damage due to not being able to get an ele attribute line above 12 (though setting her skill bar up as one does demonstrate the point I was making - she also has the same AI as the two ele's and mirrors their skill usage with the same skill bar).
Reading comprehension FTW!!! lol if you want a SF ele then don't use tahlkora.. give the build to zhed or sousuke
Btw I usually have 2 SF ele heroes when i play, and the difference is:
zhed's energy is 20
sousuke's energy is 68
(it's ALWAYS like that so it's not just a coincidence)
Now that this mean that sousuke isn't aggressive at all OR is he a pro at using the energy management skills?
hmm i realized this is offtopic but i just wanted to say it..
Amy Awien
I think strcpy's point was that the heroes all share the same AI-code / behaviour and setting up Tahlkora as an ele was part of the experiment.
strcpy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amy Awien
I think strcpy's point was that the heroes all share the same AI-code / behaviour and setting up Tahlkora as an ele was part of the experiment.
You win the prize - but since you stuck an extra "u" in behavior you are not eligible to receive it.
It would be so much simpler if people actually payed attention to what has been said, much more fun to spend time on what is important: American vs European spelling
It would be so much simpler if people actually payed attention to what has been said, much more fun to spend time on what is important: American vs European spelling
stuntharley
Hero's tend to spam energy skills even if you give them sig of devotion =( I'd say the henchmen are better but the heroes are good for a changeable build instantly which is what I like
Faer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Admael
Quote: Originally Posted by Admael That's not true, both have the same AI. And, I will quote myself, rather than repeating myself:
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Faer
...in my experience at least...
My experiences be what they be, matey. What be true to one man mayn't be true to another, aye.
Yarrrr.
The5thSeraph
Quote:
Originally Posted by strcpy
You win the prize - but since you stuck an extra "u" in behavior you are not eligible to receive it.
It would be so much simpler if people actually payed attention to what has been said, much more fun to spend time on what is important: American vs European spelling
Correction: English vs american spelling.Or to put it another way: Correct vs Bastardised spelling. ^_^ Behaviour has a "u" in it, and to leave that out would alter the pronounciation (or would you say "prononciation"?) and effectively change the word entirely. That irrelevance aside, considering how much more effective my damage-dealing builds are than damaging henchies, I've decided to capitalise on them and use henchies for monking... whether or not my monk heroes are able to hold their own.
Perkunas
Quote:
Originally Posted by Faer
I would suggest you swap those builds around, as, in my experience at least, Tahlkora makes a better Protection Monk than a Healer, and the reverse is also true about Dunkoro.
I tend to agree with this statement. I have Dunk as healer and Tahl as Protector. I set my friend's up reversed. The skill bars are same healer to healer and prot to prot. My Heros keep us up better than when we use his in same areas.
Shady79
Look at this picture of a german guy:
...is a good example. This won't be possible with any level 20 npc healer. Heroes >>>> NPC (with the right skillbar) senti monk of god
i /agree that hench's keep party alive alot easier then heros like said before heros just sit around sometimes when hench's r keeping up the pace. i just bring 3 mm heros for i can have a huge army and have 2 healer hench's
Mr Pink57
Why are any of you wasting your time on hero healers? Those hero spots should be filled with damage which the hench AI lacks... big time. You want some sort of damage mitigation use a paragon.
pink
Terraban
If your hero monks can't keep up with hench monks....
Then you sir, /fail. Seriously...a Warrior with all monk skills heals better than hench monks. Quru
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terraban
If your hero monks can't keep up with hench monks....
Then you sir, /fail. Seriously...a Warrior with all monk skills heals better than hench monks. It really depends. i/e when i go dungeons, i take Hayda as support paragon, tahlkora as hybrid (LoD as elite) and for another monk Mhenlo. Mhenlo uses WoH kinda well so i can switch tahlkoras elite to something else. blurmedia
didnt anyone else notice the 1year ress?
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