Hero Healers vs Henchie Healers

Antithesis

Antithesis

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2007

BrisneyLand

Sphincter Says [What]

W/

Instead of taking two Hero Monks, drop one for Sab's N/Rt Restorer and use the Monk as anti-spike and Hex removal.

Heal spam and party heals is taken care of by the N/Rt. The N/Rt also has a heap of condition removal - taking it from the Monk's bar greatly reduces pressure on their energy management. There's no need to take a dedicated Healer or Protector, 2 or 3 skills in either line is enough to do the job. Don't take spammable energy-heavy skills - they can't run them properly and will spam until their energy bombs. Taking a rez on a Monk means it won't make the red bars go up and puts your party at greater risk. Leave battle-rezzing to more offensive characters who can afford to stop attacking for 3-6 secs.

With this in mind a Hero Monk bar is pretty easy to construct - Big Heal, Conditional Heal (if x then y), Free Heal (signet), Condition Removal (optional if taking a N/Rt), Hex Removal, Small Prot, Big Prot, Energy Management.

Here's what i use, works a treat -

Word of Healing [e]
Dwayna's Kiss
Signet of Rejuvenation
Cure Hex
Remove Hex
Glyph of Lesser Energy
Guardian / Shield of Absorption
Aegis

If you need party-wide healing, try Healer's Boon [e], Heal Party and Glyph of Lesser Energy.

The effectiveness of a Monk also depends on how your spec the rest of your party's build. If you have a weak offense, it doesn't matter how strong your defense is if the Monks run out of energy. I'd rather drop Hero Monks for Henchy Monks and take more offensive Heroes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blurmedia
didnt anyone else notice the 1year ress? d'Oh! Thanks for the heads-up...i didn't notice

distilledwill

distilledwill

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2006

Blighty

The Legion of the Blue Blade

R/Mo

I quite like to take a WoH monk hench sometimes, a good prot/heal split makes a good deal of difference. but i think if you play smart and take offensive heroes with some good synergy then there isnt much need for a monk hero and henches will do absolutely fine.


for reference, this is what i use:
[card]Word Of Healing[/card][card]Signet Of Rejuvenation[/card][card]Guardian[/card][card]Dismiss Condition[/card][card]Aegis[/card][card]Shield Of Absorption[/card][card]Resurrection Chant[/card]

Lishy

Lishy

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2008

Huh?My Glimmer of Light Tahlkora is godly!
Your just need to learn how the AI works and what skills to put.Heroes can only be as good as the player y'know.
Also remember to lock rez

thehoweller

thehoweller

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jun 2005

Somewhere NorthWest of Ranik

Signet Of Shut Your [Face]

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enchanted Warrior
" Their AI is the same - give them the same skill bar and they will perform the same. Tis true of any of the hero/hench - Sousuke isn't anymore or less effective than Zhed - they just have different skins."

Nope sorry you're wrong. Zhed runs in Sou' doesn't. I read that some heroes are "smarter" than others or act more aggressive than others. Goren for example is said to be strong but not real bright. Biggest laugh I've had in a long while...It's like he thinks Anet actually put time into hero AI...~laugh~


But yeah, Heroes are JUST as dumb as their henchmen counterpart with one exception...You make their bar.

Don't blame Sousuke for being more stupid than Zhed, I mean...You did put Mending on his bar.

stretchs

stretchs

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2007

Untimely Demise [Err了] - SOHK

My hero healers almost never come out of drydock. 99% of the time I go with henchies for healing to go along with the WoR NRt. I think the last time I did bring heros, I had them for Shards of Orr smiting. Speaking of which, anyone have a good smiting build that heros run well (aka withing much microing)?

Thanks

Darkside

Darkside

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2006

Chantry of Secrets

[Angl]

D/

I almost always use the Hench monks not because they are more effective at healing then hero monks but because they do the job fine and I would rather use my hero slots on something you can't get via hench like an mm bomber.

byteme!

byteme!

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

On Earth

W/P

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enchanted Warrior
Nope sorry you're wrong. Zhed runs in Sou' doesn't. I read that some heroes are "smarter" than others or act more aggressive than others. Goren for example is said to be strong but not real bright. Do you also believe everything you see on television?

P.S. Don't believe everything people tell you. If they are wrong and you start believing them that would make you equally as wrong or ridiculously easy to persuade.

Ornlu

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Mar 2008

Mercenaries of Ornlu

R/

one thing i dont like is sin hero's i mean you set up SP build or whatnot for PvP or PvE an zenmai runs off and uses tiger stance instead of SP, but thereas im new to this hero buisness only had nf 2 weeks, but i found panaku and whatsername, henchwoman are pretty good :S

Terraban

Terraban

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2007

Heroes make HORRIBLE Assassins. They don't do anything right...

Antithesis

Antithesis

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2007

BrisneyLand

Sphincter Says [What]

W/

They can run a Critical Barrager...can't say that i'd take it, but it can be done.

MasterSasori

MasterSasori

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2007

USA

[Thay]

R/Mo

Heros should definitely be at least as efficient as henchmen...

Check your builds. There may be a problem with your builds.

Super Igor

Banned

Join Date: Mar 2008

why should you kno? Oo

A/W

Sure Hero Monks are better, yes, I still dont like Monk heroes instead of N/Rts, N/Mos and Rt/s but sometimes the good old Divine Favor bonus on Healing or a Hardprot that can make a character immune to damage comes in Handy, and if u give ur Hero less things to spam and Micro well then its good.

In the rest they are the same.

Kiluna

Kiluna

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: May 2007

Finland

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enchanted Warrior
Note: This is not a complaint, or rant, it's a question..

Has anyone else experienced this, Hero healers cannot keep up with hencie healers in intense fights? (I never thought I'd say this, but) Menhlo, etc can really out heal and regenerate faster it seems, than the heroes can. The Heroes seem to be only as fast as player healers.

Anyone else experience this? If so any ideas why? Yes i have experienced this, if i use 2 hero healers i have to most of time use 1 or 2 hench healers too as they fail to stay/keep stuff alive, even 1 Charr Blade/Axemaster rapes them in 1 sec. Have had some annoying moments in really easy places with ~-30% DP as while i try to kill mobs in order of threat (spike healers fast, interrupt and kill aoe mobs next, leave monks to handle = kite, melee mobs).

Works alot better with hench healers and heroes to do damage.

Don't have any idea why is it like this, i believe they have different AI for heroes than henches which works different.

Edit:
And the builds on my hero monks shouldn't be problem, other is prot with the most common prot skills (aegis, guardian, RoF, PS and so on). Other is healing with Ele as secondary for glyph with the nerfed aoe heal elite (forgot the name, think i should change it since it heals next to nothing and got high cooldown) and the normal aoe heal. Don't remember the exact builds, i would say they are the common prot/healing ones, nothing unsual in them.

Edit2:
What is this Sab's build people keep talking about? :S Had nearly 1 year pause from GW and there is alot of changes and new stuff since then. So would be nice if someone could give some sort of link (tryed search with not so much results)

Ekelon

Ekelon

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Dec 2005

Rebel Rising [rawr]

A/W

The reason henchman are better than heroes is usually because:

1. You gave your hero a bad bar.
2. You don't have your hero fully equipped.

Henchman have a generic 5-6 skill bar that is highly efficient. All it takes is WoH and Orison of healing to keep up your party for the henchman. When you start adding 50 billion other things, your heroes start draining their energy by trying to maintain aegis, remove hexes, remove conditions, and heal all at the same time. A henchman has one simple task, heal.

Boogz

Boogz

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2008

Variable Speed Farmers[VsF]

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Antithesis
They can run a Critical Barrager...can't say that i'd take it, but it can be done. wich is the only build that assassins heroes run perfectly

the AI is basically the same, the only thing that changes is the build that you gave them, personally, i use the monk henchmen and run offensive and defensive heroes, sometimes a partygon

.Qualengeist.

.Qualengeist.

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2008

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ekelon
The reason henchman are better than heroes is usually because:

1. You gave your hero a bad bar.
2. You don't have your hero fully equipped.

Henchman have a generic 5-6 skill bar that is highly efficient. All it takes is WoH and Orison of healing to keep up your party for the henchman. When you start adding 50 billion other things, your heroes start draining their energy by trying to maintain aegis, remove hexes, remove conditions, and heal all at the same time. A henchman has one simple task, heal. So you think, you should give only about 4-5 Healskills your Heal-Hero?
So there is no energy draining I think...
Or did i missunderstand you ?

Amy Awien

Amy Awien

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2006

R/

That is one possible approach, though still too many. Better yet are skills that in one way or another reclaim energy.

Antithesis

Antithesis

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2007

BrisneyLand

Sphincter Says [What]

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by .Elessar.
So you think, you should give only about 4-5 Healskills your Heal-Hero?
So there is no energy draining I think...
Or did i missunderstand you ? It's the Condition removal that'll drain your Monk more often than not. If you can offload the bulk of Condition and Hex removal to say a Song of Purification+Hexbreaker Aria Para and a Weapon of Remedy+Mend Body & Soul N/Rt, you ease the load on a Hero Monk allowing them to perform the task of healing much better.

Give them a primary role as a Healer and secondary roles for Prot, Condition (if absolutely necessary) and Hex removal and you'll be much happier for it. Fortunately this can all be done on the one skillbar using a Word of Healing hybrid. How it performs is ultimately down to the way you've setup the rest of the team to handle the other defensive roles.

upier

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

The big question I have always wondered was - do hench function under the same rules as the player/heroes or do they function under the rules of foes.
The sole reason why I am wondering is because of the +1 e-regen found on foes which might explain why I sometimes get the feeling that henchie healers get away with more then heroes.

Draginvry

Draginvry

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Oct 2007

The Underground PvP Society (PVPS)

N/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kain Fz
Huh?My Glimmer of Light Tahlkora is godly!
Your just need to learn how the AI works and what skills to put. Yes, Glimmer Tahl is one of my favorite builds. She is so quick and efficient with glimmer as long as you give her energy management that she can't screw up.

But the main reason I like hero monks over hench is that you can gear them for however much defense you need. Hench monks will waltz into aggro with a dozen monsters, only to cast Healing Breeze on themselves right before they die.

You can minimize this stupidity on heros by giving them more protection, and giving them skills which they can reliably use to keep themselves alive, as well as the party.

Henches are only good because people put a bunch of 10e skills on their hero monks. For instance, HB should never be on a hero bar. I have never seen a hero use HB in any way that helped the party whatsoever. They either cast it on someone who is hardly taking damage, or on someone who is just about to die.

Heros spam skills. So put skills on them which won't instantly drain their energy. Just because a skill is OMG IMBA for a player doesn't mean a hero can use it. Chances are they will use it at the wrong time, and for the wrong reasons.

But since heros have such great reaction times, they can be better than players if you give them a skill bar that they can't screw up. Your hero's skill bar should be abusing his timing, not his intelligence (since he doesn't have any)

Super Igor

Banned

Join Date: Mar 2008

why should you kno? Oo

A/W

Hero healers are far superior to henchies coz u can controll what they do and give them a much more effective build to use.

~Super Igor ~

Terrokian

Terrokian

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Feb 2008

Alliance,Ohio

Terrokian's Avengers

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Antithesis
Instead of taking two Hero Monks, drop one for Sab's N/Rt Restorer and use the Monk as anti-spike and Hex removal.

Heal spam and party heals is taken care of by the N/Rt. The N/Rt also has a heap of condition removal - taking it from the Monk's bar greatly reduces pressure on their energy management. There's no need to take a dedicated Healer or Protector, 2 or 3 skills in either line is enough to do the job. Don't take spammable energy-heavy skills - they can't run them properly and will spam until their energy bombs. Taking a rez on a Monk means it won't make the red bars go up and puts your party at greater risk. Leave battle-rezzing to more offensive characters who can afford to stop attacking for 3-6 secs.

With this in mind a Hero Monk bar is pretty easy to construct - Big Heal, Conditional Heal (if x then y), Free Heal (signet), Condition Removal (optional if taking a N/Rt), Hex Removal, Small Prot, Big Prot, Energy Management.

Here's what i use, works a treat -

Word of Healing [e]
Dwayna's Kiss
Signet of Rejuvenation
Cure Hex
Remove Hex
Glyph of Lesser Energy
Guardian / Shield of Absorption
Aegis

If you need party-wide healing, try Light of Deliverance [e], Divine Healing and/or Heaven's Delight.

The effectiveness of a Monk also depends on how your spec the rest of your party's build. If you have a weak offense, it doesn't matter how strong your defense is if the Monks run out of energy. I'd rather drop Hero Monks for Henchy Monks and take more offensive Heroes.


d'Oh! Thanks for the heads-up...i didn't notice Tahlkora
Healing Prayers 12+1+1 Protectinon Prayers 12+1
[skill]Word of Healing[/skill][wiki]Cure Hex[/wiki] [skill]Dwayna's Kiss[/skill] [wiki]Dismiss Conditon[/wiki][skill]Signet of Rejuvenation[/skill][skill]Glyph of Lesser Energy[/skill][skill]Aegis[/skill][skill]Resurrection Chant[/skill]

Now this was a monk build from AntiThesis.Only thing I did was switch the order and substitute Resurrectinon Chant For SoA.I couldn't be more tickled with this because to me it seems Lina FINALLY spams protection and Mehnlo FINALLY does some real back up healing.I'm running a W with axe(Evis+Agonize+Exec+YMLaD) and due to his advice rethought my party.Picked up Livia as a hybrid MM/Curser Gwen as Interupter with Tahlkora.I could not be MORE PLEASED.I also could not believe the radical difference in the amount of damage we now do.I believe a large part is due to that tahlkora build.It keeps everyone alive and cond/hex free.

Eldin

Eldin

Forge Runner

Join Date: Dec 2005

America. How about you, commie?

Fellows of Mythgar [FOM]

R/Mo

Aside from Alesia, I find the henchies are FAIR monks but heroes are always better. Lina is a fair prot henchie though, and has never let me down. In fact in the old days when I reached the Crystal Desert, I was jumping for joy at this new henchie.

Me, I usually use Dunkoro as a hybrid, Oggy as a healer, and Tahlkora as a protter. Each can assume the other roles fairly, but they are rune'd for their respective duties.

Trvth Jvstice

Trvth Jvstice

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2006

HALE

W/

All of my Hero Monks use the standard Hybrid heal/prot build. When available I always add Mhenlo and they haven't had any energy problem.

flettir

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2007

Kabal of the Righteous [Seed]

Mo/

um...did you give your hero healer a build?
then again, i'm pretty sure the starting set of 5 skills or so that dunk has when you first get him are better than what henchie healers have.

either way, my dunky is a better monk than 75% of humans i've played with, let alone henchies. it's all in the build/equipment. Just don't load him up with high-cost spells, and he'll manage energy just fine.

Super Igor

Banned

Join Date: Mar 2008

why should you kno? Oo

A/W

Ironically I always expirince a doubty feeling when taking a human monk in my HM pug, tbh for most human monks the math is Heroes > Henchies > Humans. :P

~Super Igor ~

mistokibbles

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Mar 2008

N/A

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldin
Aside from Alesia, I find the henchies are FAIR monks but heroes are always better. Lina is a fair prot henchie though, and has never let me down. In fact in the old days when I reached the Crystal Desert, I was jumping for joy at this new henchie.

Me, I usually use Dunkoro as a hybrid, Oggy as a healer, and Tahlkora as a protter. Each can assume the other roles fairly, but they are rune'd for their respective duties. I saw a Talkora using life bond, vital blessing and mending. I saw another with Martyr, purge conditions and convert hexes. Convert is a good skill but we were doing sunjiang district on nm which isn't condition or hex heavy.

Sethellington

Sethellington

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2005

nn

N/

i'd rather take my hero.

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

Hench.
Heroes can deal more damage more better, because of micromanagement and you can change their skill bar.
Henchmen have a set role -- to do what they do best provided in that role.

Trvth Jvstice

Trvth Jvstice

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2006

HALE

W/

It depends on the situation, Henches do fine in many areas, but sometimes I have to take a Monk Hero with a specific build, such as extra hex/condition removal. Usually my team can kill the mob fast enough that the monks are able to out heal the hex/conditions, but I take the hero monk just in case. (in case I aggro too much or miss a patrol -lol) Seriously though, 2 hybrid heal/prot monk heroes are better than 2 hench monks, but when would you want to sacrifice the greatly increased dmg potential of a good team over a marginal healing increase?

Terrokian

Terrokian

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Feb 2008

Alliance,Ohio

Terrokian's Avengers

W/

I am finding I like controlling 1 healer/prot build and taking 1 henchie healer the best.Having a little control on hex/cond/heal needs is very nice because sometimes the henchies just don't get on it fast enough.

Super Igor

Banned

Join Date: Mar 2008

why should you kno? Oo

A/W

lolololol, Henchies suck at healing, cuz, they cant even remove hexes propperly, imo, Henchs are not bad to disuse but heroes are betta.#

~Super Igor ~

Mr Pink57

Mr Pink57

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2007

a van down by the river

iBench

P/W

I would rather take the Henchies as I reserve my hero spots for damage and support. But what I have found works is that HC spam build that you see a lot in RA/TA. Just disable HC and Contemplation and let the hero go to town with it, and I put GoLE in the last spot if there is a lot of enchant stripping (removes HC).

pink

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Igor
lolololol, Henchies suck at healing, cuz, they cant even remove hexes propperly, imo, Henchs are not bad to disuse but heroes are betta.#

~Super Igor ~ Either hexes in PvE are so retardedly spammed and not worth bothering about, so just taking aggro is best, or they're not a threat at all.

You'll be a fool to use a hero healer over a henchie healer unless it's a non-henchie party with at least two people.

Cathode_Reborn

Cathode_Reborn

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2006

Heroes do outdamage henches easily, but healer's basically have the most important role in the party.

For harder areas, I sometimes take a hero healer - you can often get away with a defense-heavy team depending on your prof. I like to play it safe sometimes.

Mr Pink57

Mr Pink57

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2007

a van down by the river

iBench

P/W

If you take any skill on a healer hero I recommend it to be Vigorous Spirit. Its cheap, fast recharge, long lasting, and cannot go wrong with its cast. Its great to keep red bars topped off especially physical heavy teams.

pink

The Meth

The Meth

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2007

R/

Take 3 good damage heroes, enemies won't live long enough to kill you. Hench monks clean up the little damage you take just fine. Heck, for half of the battles the only healing my party needs is the minion master Olias saccing himself.