Bring back leveling up

The way I understood ANet's plan, the faction grind is there to replace Lvl up while keeping a player without an expansion not to be at a dissadvantage. The problem is, about both faction and NightFall, I'm hearing people complain about grinding to advance.Then again I don't remember noticing during Faction's era so that may be just a passing comment. By the way is it me or I see a number of PvEvsPvP threads)

Faction'S system was that faction was first to advance and then to trade.
NF's system is to grind sunspear to advance and lightbringer to empower. (then again coming from tyria I acheived SS rank 6 when the game asked for it, unless i'm stupid enough to mistake rank 6 and 8.

So my guess, being a fan of lvl-ing up, would be to stop this and change so that teh grinding replace fully lvl up-ing. The griding would not stop you from advancing but make you stronger. I think LB ranks make you more resistant and more damaging versus Abadon.

Writing this I feel like some threads proposing crazy idea but... Your toughts?

I'm all for this but I feel we won't get a lot of support from the people that bought Factions/NF before Chapter 1.

Why? The baddies are all scaled to reflect on the lvl 20 system. I don't see the point of adding grind to the game thats what WoW is for. They want to offer something new, and did. Personally I like it how it is, grinding for lightbringer and sunspear is a personal choice. Lightbringer does help, but isn't necessary, and faction does technically make you more powerful as you can turn it to a priest for unlocking skills, which then you can either buy or give to your heroes. Dunno just don't see the point....

EDIT: I think I may have misunderstood you. In fact I'm sure of it but too disinclined to edit my post further...

I love the idea of a better lvl cap but there are some problems for anet though....

1. a whole new are added to each game....well 4-???? because its a new storyline.... would cause more dev. time needed

2. changing all the skils......again!!!!!!!

but if they can do those things, im with it...

if this is what you are saying...plz correct me if im wrong.

if you are suggesting level cap boost [which is what I read the post as] - well, first and foremost, it's not going to happen.

[that's a period at the end, there]

but seriously, there's no use to a higher level cap when the game is focused around pvp, and as tide to go said, if the level cap is raised, -every- enemy and skill would have to be rebalanced.

and you know how anet is when it comes to balancing!

Must admit i preferred the prophecy way of gaining skills via quests and not reaching level 20 until the desert if following the storyline correctly. Put into perspective for factions and nf, reach level 20 at HZH and Kodash would be more satisfying to the casual gamer, established players will always find shortcuts to level faster for new chars.

anet and rebalancing [shudders in fear]

Maybe he is saying that he wants more stuff like prophicies? If so, I'm all for that.

Same as troll farming, proly wont get it back move on make oyur characters in factions if u want to lvl up fast

This is about changing the system back to Chapter 1 style leveling not raising the level cap...

rofl? lvl 20 cap. nothing more.

They have repeatedly said they won't raise it.

I really don't think ANet can do this, no matter how much people like it. People often bring their older characters into each new campaign, rather than role new ones.

If it's balanced around leveling, you'll miss tons of content when you start straight at the point you're meant to be 20, or you'll be overleveled for it (maybe this isn't a problem?). Starting a factions or NF char in prophecies has both problems, not only do you miss out on at least 1/4 of the game, but you STILL start out in a part of the game far beneath your level.

I think the nightfall system was ideal for starting new character on a semi-even playing field with old ones, through the title levelup system, but they made it far too grindy. They should do something like this again, but there should be no grind involved in leveling it, i.e. quests only, hopefully fun ones, and they should give real advantages as the title levels, but only in the chapter it pertains to, so it feels more like leveling system (i.e. add one unique skill for each class that scales in effectiveness with the title, that can only be used in that chapter, like the sunspear res sig only more powerful and not a res skill.)

No, what the OP is suggesting is a return to the slow-leveling system that existed in Prophecies. It was very common to see people below level 20 in Henge of Denravi (and sometimes Sanctum Cay when they didn't get run). That's more than halfway through the game.

Now, it's very odd to see a level 20 character past the starter islands in Factions and Nightfall. To compensate for that, they put in either physical gates or intangible ones (i.e. Sunspear points) to restrain your progress, to kind of force you to play some or most of the sidequests.

In Prophecies, if you skipped the sidequests you were significantly gimped when you played in later areas, as you didn't have the level to go against the baddies. So, you had an incentive to play the sidequests, instead of (sort of) being forced to do so.

The problem with this approach, however, is what The Admins Bane pointed out...since other chapter's characters come over at level 20, you really can't deprive them of over half of the new game's content (or make it insanely easy for them).

I can't say that i've done any grinding whatsoever for sunspear points on any of my chars. Just talk to every scout in your path while questing and the points add up with little effort. I have 7 Castellans and not once gone out specifically to farm sunspear points. You can even quite easily gain levels 4 and 5 Lightbringer simply by completing quests and visiting all the shrines along the way.

Lightbringer does give advantages, more dmg given, less taken with each rank...and you want more free skills too :P

I don't mind the sunspear points system (aside from the fact that you can't max out the title). Going out and doing side quests in Nightfall to me is part of the game and enriches the story line. I don't consider doing them as "farming." I only had to do 4 or 5 to get to sunspear general anyway - took about an hour.

I only had to go out once just to farm (kill stuff just for the SS points) up to the next rank of Sunspear rank in order to continue. I needed 16 points.

I love the fast leveling up, in fact I'd prefer it if you just started at L20... but this is just your opinion vs mine.

One serious downside that you've failed to acknowledge is replayability. Prophesies only has 2 areas (southern shiverpeaks and fire islands) with any replayablility due to the fact that the rest was made for characters that have not yet reached L20. In contrast the large majority of cantha and kourna was designed for Level 20s.

Seeing as my characters with spend an insignificant amount of time leveling up compared to the time when they'll be l20, I'd prefer that the zones would be designed with that level in mind.

/unsigned

I'd love to see this reinstated. But i understand why it isn't with time constraints.. it's easier just to put in gates rather than make the charcaters progresivly level up slowly. Also it would put people off from re doing it and re doing it and re doing it. Reduced replayability isn't a good thing imo.

If Anet implemented the same map system and speed of leveling up, there will a HUGE lack of content for people who bring the characters over since they will be lvl 20 already and too powerful for most of the map.

Hell no, I hated Prophecies way of progressing. Way too slow.

I think the NF system is a nice compromise. Foreign chars can jump right in (now... sucked grinding out SS8 @ release), and native chars take a little longer than Cantha to lvl up, but not too much. I haven't created a new char, but I heard that SS8 wasn't hard to get on a native char? I just brought over a char and she made it to 7.5-ish without any sort of effort. The grind is gone, the minor restrictions are good. Don't change it. The game is balanced for lvl 20. The faster you get there, the better.

I would love it if you could level up and go beyond 20, 21 etc...
BUT
Leveling up would do nothing but gain the usual skill point and a digit increase nothing more, that way you could tell who's a farmer or more experianced by how high their level is. And to prevent crazy farmers from making their number level high as crazy you could make each level up higher with each one like 1 million to get to level 25 then 2 million to level 26. etc... I would love to have my warrior be 44 my fav number

I actually like the game's being mostly lvl 20 content, it becomes less about what level you are and more about how you handle a given situation. I can't even bring myself to play back through Prophecies anymore, the progress rate is painful and things don't really become interesting until you hit the desert. I'd agree with others who've said NF is a pretty reasonable compromise, though I didn't really mind the Factions method either.

I know I'm going to start a flame war (as usual), but...

Guild Wars has no individual character development.

You are able to start a character at max level. Even in prophecies, you can hit max level with 2 days played and not much effort.

In World of Warcraft, however, getting to the maximum level is 50% of the game, as it's very time consuming, and there's a lot to do during that time.

It's Guild Wars' design philosophy. It can't change.

This is why Titles came into existence.

I play slowly (when I do play) so slow leveling isn't a problem for me. I feel that being able to level to 20 within 2 days is making the game feel a whole lot shorter.

Do you improve your character through titles? Wow, you deal more damage to Demons and have a better chance of not destroying an item when salvaging.

There is no material character development. Even after your character fights hundreds and hundred of battles...there is no physical reflection on the character itself.

I don't really understand what you're saying, but...

I really rather be grinding factions than levels.

The low level areas in Factions and Nightfall just fail. They get you to level 20but you're usually ill-equipped and you have to buy most of your skills. *lol* Well, I'm having an easy time of getting my P/W to level 20 and Survivor on Istan. I hope Chp.4 has more skill quests but has a faster pace than Prophecies. Of cource I didn't leave Pre-Searing until level 10.

I myself liked the leveling in prophecies... the first time through. Then I really just prefered taking any and all characters to factions first thing I could to level them fast. I wonder if they could find a way to balance between the two opposites...

On the contrary, I think they should get rid of leveling altogether, just make everyone start at 20. I actually prefer factions fast pace to prophecies.

And concerning faction/sunspear grinding, I didn't have to do any, I got enough faction and sunspear points to advance just playing the game.

I absolutely agree that lvling up should reflect the prophercies system. It should take longer and feel more rewarding to achieve lvl20, and being lvl20 should be a sign of experience and being a decent player to achieve it.

But unfortunately Anet has completely ballsed it up now.

As another poster said, due to more new people playing Factions and Nightfall they wont know that originally it took you about 3/4 of the game to reach lvl20, gain max armor and max weapons and basically achieve anything.

They certainly wont know what ascension is.

The whole idea of lvl20 has been devalued now.

If we tried to reintroduce long leveling times, the younger players would all cry and winge that it takes too much grinding to level up. When in truth its not grinding, its "earning your level", unlike in factions where its just given to you on a silver platter.

Anet hit the nail on the head with Prophercies, but because all the trigger happy playes complained that it took too long to level up, and they wanted it to get harder faster, they caved in and changed it.

And as another poster said, the last 2 campaigns are now set up to reflect the faster leveling up. The creatures get harder alot faster. But adding harder creatures sooner, doesnt reflect whether a player is good.

The reason is because in factions and nightfall, you get max armor and weapons alot sooner too. So your more then equipped to withstand the damage from those high level creatures.

Thats something else propherices got right. By not giving us max armor and weapons until the desert, we had to fight the ever-increasingly hard creatures using low armor.

It was basically more of a challenge. But the new players now wouldnt accept it, because they want everything fast and done for them.

so yeah...

/signed at somehow bringing back real leveling up.

[side note]

Im not saying factions or nightfall are bad, I like them. Ive actually played more through factions then prophercies. But thats because you get caught up in the fact it takes less effort to attain anything.

Its hard to deny that its nice to just be able to jump right in and get everything fast. But in the long-run I think it was bad thing that Anet scrapped long leveling up because of that effect its had.

Like everythign in life, we sway more towards wanting things done faster, when in actual fact its better if its done slower.

I always felt that the slower progression at least took a bit of the learning curve out of PvE, for new players. It still didn't take long, and at least let you get better used to your character style and class. Then there was always runs if you wanted a new character quickly.

That gave you some choice to play slow or fast - whereas the Factions system throws you in Level 20 content fairly quickly, without the useful areas like the desert in Prophecies that made you learn concepts.

I'm levelling a Prophecies Elementalist right now for PvP, since I hate the visual options for Canthan/Elonian Elementalists. Every time I go play it, I regret it, since levelling is so painfully slow in Prophecies. It's absolutely ridiculous. For a game balanced around level 20 and parties of 8, you spend way too long in Prophecies under level 20 and in groups less than 8. Seeing another campaign following that style would, to me, be absolutely horrible. Not to mention I mainly play my existing characters through new chapters, and only make a character for that chapter when I'm bored. My primary characters would have hardly any fun content if it was done like Prophecies.

Raising the level cap like that wouldn't work! If you want to show off your experience level then a title would be the way to go. It still wouldn't proove alot, many make chars purely for solo farming, a 55 monk thats barely done more than troll & UW farming with 10mill exp doesn't make them an experienced healer/boon prot so gives a false impression. Similar to the pvp rank system, someone with rank isn't necessarily a good pvp'er rather they have spent sufficient time to gain rank, i've befriended the kurzicks yet haven't gained any of my faction through pvp.

I'll be honest.
I haven't got a clue what the OP now really suggests...

Makkert, me neither.
But some people seem to in favor of more grinding till level 20 or even a higher level.
I'll state the reasons why it's not a good idea:

* Despite popular belief, reaching level 20 takes zero skill, only time. Reaching level 20 would only be skillful, if you couldn't get more experience from the monsters after you kill them once.

* Against the philosophy, Skill > Time spent. It's not unique and used in every other popular RPG game I can think of.

* When you reach max level, the low level content becomes too easy to be played, therefore removing replayability for maxed characters.

Anet added the Titan quests to tackel that issue and what happened?

No one does them anymore. They are the hardest quests in all 3 games in my opinion and the experienced gained is HUGE. But no one does them.

That is a huge insentive to do re-playability in a low-end area, but it doesnt work. If 10k experience a pop isnt enough to incourage people then I think its evidence that people just dont return to low-end areas regardless of low-or-fast leveling.

Meh... I've started one character in Prophecies so far and she is still level 7. I regret ever having her leave Pre-Searing Ascalon.... the level-grind is a royal pain in the arse out there, and at least in Pre-Searing there are no death penalties and things are taken nice and easy....

Almost all my other characters are Factions-based.... and honestly I'd have it no other way. Its not as if I have to grind for the levels there. Sure, its fast, but its fast because I do all the quests. I'm sometimes shocked when I see level 16 characters in Nahpui Quarter, wondering how the heck they got so far without levelling higher...

The point I'm getting at is that the one thing I like about Guild Wars above all else is that level isn't everything: Its not how strong you are, but what you do with it. The arsey slow levelling in Prophecies just harks back to that notion that enemies will always get continuously stronger... requiring the character to likewise gain raw strength to continue.... as opposed to the system in Factions which is more based around finding the right build and strategy to take down the enemies in the area. It requires actual thought, rather than stubborn persistance.
Gaming should be more like painting a portrait than painting a fence, afterall.

The slow level up system is much more fun the *first* time through, but gives you little replay value later.

I know I'm going to get 15 diehards posting, but how many people *really* did all the maguma jungle areas after the first time or two through?

The current system allows you to go back through almost the entire game with a lvl20 character and have fun treasure hunting, helping friends, and nabbing skills.

Well, personally, I started a Tyrian elementalist recently. I got ran to droks for armor and skills, then I started at the beginning. I was doing every quest available, and the ele made it to level 20 before he got to Druid's Overlook. Slow leveling my ass.

I would settle with Chapter 4 having the skills in the quests again. *shrugs* But I do still like Chapter 1 over the other two.