Why do PUG groups have to be l33t in none-elite areas?

Because failure due to stupidity is a waste of time?

I thought this was understood. Who wants to go into a mission with a bunch of complete idiots with the worst skillbars imaginable? Some people don't have time to fail a mission over and over thanks to the ignorance of other players.

Having a team full of people with no clue is actually good fun if your not in a hurry, if i want to grind thru a mission fast il take as many nuker heros as possible and go.

I do miss PUGs in pve, i think half of the reason prohpecies was so much fun is that i played it with other people rather than bots, which added an extra level to the gameplay, i think heros killed pve for the largest part.

this is exactly right. people play for fun, not to watch groups gather 60 dp in 5 minutes and then ragequit.

Point of comment: This thread proves that I am not the only pessimist and elitist jerk in this community.

Anyways, when I pugged after NF release, I ask the W/Mos or anyone with questionable IQ to call out their skill-bar. I usually catch Mending or something stupid everytime.

(And yes, I suggest that the person adjust the build. But no, they are always stubborn...)

When I want to actually complete a mission, I turn to either a good pug (the rare types that you know when you see em) or most often just hero/hench it.

When I want to have some fun and a little frustration, I monk for a random pug. Most of the time the pug makes it 75% of the way through the mission and then things go sour. Its rather funny to be the last one standing and having the group cheer me on despite the situation being impossible.

Other than to have some fun, I pug to help others learn to play better. Although I do agree with Zinger: too many players refuse to adjust builds.
If I can help one player become better after a pugging and have some fun myself then my time was not wasted.

I just love the PUGs back in phrophecies. LF monk over and over again for like an hour in Borlis Pass mission. Some people really didn't understand that that part of the game was easy without a healer.

Failing DoA is normal and expected.

Failing Canthan Elite missions is a waste of time (proven builds, known tactics, etc.)

Failing regular missions is, well, insanely annoying. Especially because they are not hard.

You enter elite missions with very realistic expectation of failure at some very known points. But getting party wiped by a bunch of kournan scribes is frustrating.

About monks + flare. Ok, it doesn't really kill anyone. But still, a monk would contribute much more using some /N or /Me skills. Many of those can even return energy, deal damage or interrupt (all in one if possible), but above all, they don't burn monk's energy for measly flare or fire storm damage. The only thing worse is warrior with flare.

Nobody likes losing, thus they take measures so as to not lose. It's not really rocket science, though I don't quite like it at times. It's something I expect pretty much whenever I join pug groups, and I save my more 'exotic' builds for my guildies to praise or put down.

I really like trying new builds out, but I also understand that other players might not like it if I bring a horrible build. I always test my builds out in certain situations before bringing them to pug enviroments, but I've noticed some other people not do this. They bring skills that cause unneeded hassle, which is frankly just annoying. There's nothing 'wrong' really about spamming flare or mending, but there's a lot better ways to acomplish the same things. Any good player will realize this themselves as they progress through the game, and you generally won't encounter them when you get to places that might require more than bad groups.

I really don't mind playing with non l33t players, as everyone does start off with very little knowledge. Most players will accept helpful criticism, and those that don't belong on ignore lists.

I know what you mean, I've noticed this in what few pickup groups I've been a part of. And if any of them demand to know the exact build I'm using, I just leave the group. My experiences with that is that they then tell me my build could be better and they start criticizing and telling me to bring different skills.

The funny thing about this is 95% of the community hasn't played Mesmer as hardcore and as long as I have, so it's always amusing to hear their suggestions. "omg u dont hav phantasm?"

I'm Domination, sparky, I don't use Phantasm.

My only other issue with pickup groups is, as just hinted to, they never, ever seek Mesmers. Without me sounding too arrogant I hope, I do what I do exceedingly well, and it disheartens me when everyone's just looking for another "tank," "healer," or "nuker." The day I hear someone requesting a Mesmer's assistance will be the day people stop trading in the Local chat.

lol just played with a group right now, 11 guys, and im the only monk, *dont worry* they say, almost all of us have monk secondaries so we can take care of ourselves, just heal the non monk guys. So of course it starts, the only 2 rangers start setting up traps, by the door in which they retreat at, and then i tell them your trapping to far back, 1 person lures (level 19 whammo) and dredges come out of no where, 4 WTF's later and alot of bipping, me and the necro are the only survivors. el fin!

ok, little confused here... PuG's? what's a PuG?

It's a pickup group, usually meaning the kinds of groups you assemble at complete random with people you don't know for the purpose of completing a goal.

AKA the ones I avoid like the plague! I love the addition of heroes.

Lets face it people are creatures of habit. For instance I did Urgoz today as a Splinter Weapon Barrage Ritualist. As soon as I began using splinter weapon with barrage half my first group rage quit because they have never seen the build before.

So we went back into town and gathered a new group and after a while people said "hey that’s a cool build...I’ve never seen that before and it seems to work well".

Now contrast the first group. The first group did not even give the build a chance the second who saw the build in action was less bothered by it and I had several PM's telling me how impressed they were at the damage output.

Fact is people are comfortable with what they are familiar with. This is one of the reasons why many good builds for HA get nerfed. People become creative and rather than come up with a good counter they cry and call for "skill balance" until they can run a build they know about and are familiar with.

Once people can get over there over hyped personal prejudice you can have some good PUG experiences. If you see someone with a good concept build for a simple PvE mission give them a chance you may learn something.

PuG= Pick up group. Just a group of random players banding together to steel themselves against the harsh elements and overwhelming odds set against them!

Err....just what you call any group you "randomly" join where you don't know the people you are playing with.

As for people dissing Healing Breeze shame on you. Its not a bad skill, the problem lies in how people make use of it not the skill itself. The skill is great for countering degen, or when you're running past a group and need a buff against the occasional damage. Its when people think healing breeze is a good skill to use right after some one gets nailed by say an aatxe. Healing breeze does not counter 250 damage every 2 seconds. However in the right situation, or even cast before the aggro it can help alot.

I think the worst group I had this week was at FOW. A tank using flare, a whammo with mending, and the 2nd monk was afk for 20 minutes. Had to solo monk most of our time there. Actually got to the forgemaster like that.

I haven't pugged in a long time, but generally I was open-minded in regards to builds because I run bad ones myself. All of Pve on my mesmer was using a full Dom/interrupt bar, blood necro, etc. I got masters on most Factions missions with no monk teams with whammos and the like, which goes to show how much the build doesn't really matter.

/E has a couple of nice skills, Glyph of Lesser Energy being the most noticable.
I prefer this skill in most PvE builds I use.

It happened to me, but trading in local chat did not end.
I've seen several groups requesting mesmers in the Gate of Madness mission.
And help of my mesmer has been requested a few times (whisp from PuG leader).
On those occasions they wanted a specific role, so the PuG leader knew what he/she was up to.

Mesmers can be absolutely nasty at the Gate of Madness. I ran mine with full domination (16) and my elite was Spoil Victor. I think I had it at blood magic 9 or 10.

Anyhow, running Empathy and Spoil Victor on Shiro (fast casting), it worked wonders.

I don't know why people are stubborn with build/team composition. yes we might need some prof to get teh team work, but not all the time. some area is just easy that you don't need specialized team. why not let people try if their build? it might work or not.

Personally I am hardcore as Ele and Sin in PvE. I have been called noob for so many time (because I don't agree to some "elite players" idea. sometime I do see people with creative build work but since I am not the leader a lot of time, I have no right against group of consevative PUG.
I farm FoW a lot of time and consider it not hard. I really like to have a few member that is not the regular team setup (I love my FoW team have 1 tank, 2 monk 2 nuker and I want the other 3 be special. I don't require specific build as long as they know what they are doing. I am excited to have SIn, Mesmer, Rt, while other ppl always ask for barrager, BIP, BR,SS)

To those who only do PvP because they think it is easy. I doubt how many of them really know about PvE. I was in LA get pissed by such jerk who was there begging for a guild. then I try to invite him but he just point at me saying I am noob and wasting his time. dude, if the time is that important, why spend it on a game, go learn some rocket science to save the earth.
people think they are good and laugh at other forgot they were newb once which is sad.
PvE is easy? that is because you are lucky to have a team that don't really need you.
PvE is easy because you can hench it ? that is because ANet and NCSoft did a good job making them smart.
PvE is easy? know how to use some cookie cutter don't mean one is best over the other
peolpe need to learn to remember their bad experience as a newb and be polite and having fun. the new people need other to teach them and give them chance to try.

there is no problem with PUG or fail. if time is that important, go learn rocket science and save the earth. winning isn't everything.

keep in mind, new people need to given chance to try and learn. if everyone are so impatient and self center, the GW will fall and we will lost a place to have fun. (I bet most ppl don't care and simple move on the next game and repeat the cycle)

I agree with this person entirely. My Mesmer is my favorite character and definitely the one I'm best with, but you will NEVER see a PuG asking for a Mesmer. I try to get in PuG if there isn't anyone in my guild/alliance around (or if they're all busy) but it's tough to do that since everyone has to be so hardcore with their elite builds that only have Tanks, Healers, Nukers and a BiP or something.

I agree with this person entirely. My Mesmer is my favorite character and definitely the one I'm best with, but you will NEVER see a PuG asking for a Mesmer. I try to get in PuG if there isn't anyone in my guild/alliance around (or if they're all busy) but it's tough to do that since everyone has to be so hardcore with their elite builds that only have Tanks, Healers, Nukers and a BiP or something.

Hmm I've always trying to bring a Mesmer along in a group I'm forming for a mission if one was avalible. One time with my monk I was going and doing Unwaking Waters(Kurzick) and joined a team that had a dom mesmer in it 2 nukers 2 tanks a sin and another monk....to say the least that was the best pug group I EVER monked for because the damage dealers and interupt mesmer worked so effortlessly well with eachother that me and the other monk almost never even had to heal anyone in the group. And Kunny, she didnt even get to do anything but cuss at us and then go green before I even had time to type "Dern guys atleast let me heal the dragon so I have something to do....." So any mesmers that need some help doing a mission just add me to your friends list and drop me a line and I'll help if I'm able. Mesmer more then rock when played by someone that knows what they are doing.

Pretty rare, but it happens.

Before I got a guild we were some friends that use to play together and we often asked for a mesmer at ToA. Got some lasting friends that way
We also used to pick lonely mesmers if we did not have a full party in a mission.

Regards,
Cloudbunny

I don't agree on the PvE is easy arguments.
There is one reason why PvE is easy: it's predictable.
Once you played a mission a couple of times, you know the enemies and their locations / spawningpoints.
You can adjust your builds and strategy accordingly.
PvP is less predictable, although you can run a counter-team for the 'favor of the month' builds.
But that could really fail when you face the wrong opponent.

Depends on location.
In elite missions like Deep and Urgoz: yes
In most other missions: no
I've never seen PuGs in non-elite areas with those requirements.
Specially the BiP, I only see those on fast moving farming teams in PvE.

Most of the time, two monks are wanted.
Then one or two melee people.
That leaves 4 spots for other players.
Ele, Necro (MM) and probably ranger get some favor over others.
So that's two spots left for others.

I can get in PuGs without too much problem with my mesmer.
Usually about 5-10 minutes, only my monk gets invited faster than my other characters.
I just tell in local chat that I'm available for mission and that I run anti-caster/anti-melee build (or specific build for specific situations like bonus).
People that know the mission also know if that adds value to the team.
If so, I get invited. If not, that's their waste (I've got protectors on the earlier continents with my mesmer and finished NF several times including mesmer, so I know the drill).

QFT!

Anyone who have entered UW/FoW/SF/Tombs/Urzog/DoA, without any knowledge about what was coming, would sign that one!

People saying elite missions is "too easy" should first ask themselves if it is because they have done the mission 10 times already or if it is easy also for a newbie...

I have said it before and I say it once more (because I really want it ):
Anet, please add a simple "semi-random" feature in elite areas!
It could not be that hard to predefine 50-100 different spawn patterns (not only positions, but also different monster types)? That would add a lot unpredictability to an area. Predefining it would not increase the load times (I guess), and if done correctly it should not be possibly to see if you got an "easy" or "hard" spawn when you enter the area.

That would also, hopefully, reduce the use of extremely focused high speed farming builds. Those builds depend to a great extent on a predictable environment. This would of course not solve all problems with elitest PuGs, but it might open up for more diverse builds.

Regards,
Cloudbunny

IMO pug's don't have to be l33t, but they do have to be patient. I did the kill Varesh mission yesterday with a PuG, and we failed the first try. Someone noobed it up, well shit happens. The teamleader rage-quit instantly while the rest stuck around and talked it through. We passed the mission on the second try and everyone was happy.

As for the rest I'm the easiest man around, I always adjust my bar if people seem to have a valid reason. The only thing I expect from people is a certain level of politeness. There's a difference between: "ZOMG Deep Freeze u nub, change it now" (I leave at once), or "hmm, foes are spread, u might want to drop deep freeze for some single target damage skill" (I reskill immediately).

I will never take a PUG if i'm in a bad mood or if I'm in a hurry, it's a recipe for trouble. I take a PUG if I'm feeling bored or lazy (Hard mission, don't want to babysit NPC's). Thank goodness I have the choice now because of heroes, how can you not love them .

Meh.... I try to be different.

Quite a few times for certain missions where I've had to join PuGs, when I've been accepted in I tend to ask for at least one Mesmer to be added... but I typically get ignored.

Furthermore, if I'm setting up a random group for a mission myself, I'll generally invite Mesmers if I see them.... though on occasion that has resulted in other folks (tards) leaving the group. O'course my typical question I set to Mesmers is whether they're toting Backfire / Empathy or not.... Given that I generally go out with Spiteful Spirit equipped, I like to know that it can be doubled up with the appropriate Mesmer skill on key enemies. I leave the interrupting to my heroes (since I trust them to be faster with it than human meatbags).

But yeah... When I'm PuGing... and in charge... I typically go for all spellcaster parties. I generally ignore Warriors (as I have Olias's "Boney McGolem & the Shamblers" to do the melee work) and consider Rangers of secondary importance (Bone Fiends fill in there).

Some PUG experience from this wekend...

I rarely PUG...a few times in tombs, once in Urgotz, but mostly I am looking for mature players with little to no drama...

That being said...I decided to PUG it up this weekend...

1 did Urgotz with Semi Guild group..basically 4 of us showed up in Urgotz and picked up the rest...now a good Urgotz run for us is 1 hour and 30 min max...Our Guild leader does it all the time. people join and we tell them the build...if they have SF, we ask them to use MS....need cetain spirits, but are basiclaly flexible. We allowed the Rit lord to try something new and and had a splinter waepon barrager...our second monk was Korean, so we did not even bother changing his build...Our set up was 4 Barrage trappers, 4 nukers, 1 rit lord, 2 monks and 1 bip...we did it bu only after on Nuker went AFK for 20 min and got lost, another MS nuker had to go halfway in...out Rit lord pulled a rage quit cuz he didnot like us telling him where to place the spirits and to continually spawn...we also lost a ranger to a ragequit...we made it tho...lots of drama and about 2 hours longer than normal...

Later I was playing my Ele and someone invited me at Frost gate...It went so smoothly that I hooked up with PUGs althe way to Kamadan...the only bad thins is that in the gates of Kryta mission we decided not to do the bonus due to time constraints...the one person who wanted to do the bonus proceeded to rage doodle on the compas the whole mission...I could not eve see read dots...so all in all a good experience, but the immature kid put a damper on the experience in gate os Kryta

So true
I'm almost never in a bad mood or hurry (I play a game I can save when I have limited time).
But when I have an off day, I don't PuG.


That happened to me with my mesmer.
I did not mind this, but chose to Hero/Hench it (just an other Masters for my protectors title).
It's the way people fail that sometimes annoys me.
When you see dozens of enemies pop and you proceed to your primary target which is far behind those, you know you will be in trouble.

But, in general, when a PuG fails and wants to try again, I'm in.
Just talk over what went wrong and do better the next time.
There are a few exceptions, like PuGs failing on easy parts in the mission.
That means more trouble for the rest of the mission, time to get an other PuG.

If you want to play with whatever random skills you throw on your bar, then form your own group. Is it unreasonable to expect a minimum level of competence in most groups? Why should I have to take players who are worse than the henchmen? A lot of the henchmen are pretty terrible and set the bar pretty darn low.

The group leader has a right to ask for your skill bar too. It is his group. Good players may see "he has LoD so I shouldn't also carry LoD" or "I don't want to run word with a ZB monk." The leader may also have some things he is looking for, is requesting a monk with hex removal that unreasonable?

At the earliest missions you can get away with anything, but after a certain point you need at least a semblance of a group to progress.

I agree with everything said here. I lot of folks have posted here saying basically "If some elitist pig asks me to ping my skills, I'm leaving!!!!!" Personally, I think the group leader has a right to ask for your skills. He doesn't have the right to diss you however if your skills don't match his idea of what's perfect. He can politely suggest mods to your build or ask you to explain your build.

Although I think we've drifted away from the original intent of this thread, which was "Why do people demand elite pugs in non-elite areas?" Most of the recents comments have stated something along the lines of "I don't want to waste my time on hard mission with idiots that don't know how to build a skillbar". I agree. I'd rather not waste my time either, but the original question concerned low level missions.

In these areas, I'd rather not waste my time gathering the perfect pug with the perfect skill set. Just grab any 4 people (or 6) and start. In these areas, most folk don't have the perfect skill set. They have 10-20 usable starter skills and these skills should be adequate for these areas.

Come on, how many times have you seen people in Fort Ranik or Zen Daijun yelling "Need a Level 20 to run me thru mission!!!" or level 20s spamming "Running mission 500g each!!!" Forget the runners. Just grab a few folks or henchies if you prefer and do the mission yourself. It's not difficult.

I guess my point will come down to the definition of "non-elite missions". Do you mean strictly non-elite missions like all of the main missions, or rather early missions like in Kryta and those before it?

Using the example of the flare-monk (since its become so popular), I wouldn't really care in pre-LA. But things start to get a little serious right after, so I become a little bit more picky.

The biggest factors that I use in PUG use are my own personal goals and time schedule. I really want to progress through the game, but I'm pretty busy. I want the least amount of error as possible. Keep in mind that I'm not looking for "perfect" builds, just a bar that can benefit the party. However, if I see a Warrior with meteor shower or a mesmer with bow attacks, I will kindly ask him to reconsider his build. Suprisingly, most people have been pretty open about it, because they want to beat the mission just as much as you do, and they'd be willing to do a lot to achieve that goal.

That's not the case with all players, obviously. I've met my share fair of ignorant ass*#$!s, and it was mostly because of that that I came to back off from PUGs.

Well since I'm the one who kinda started the flare monk thing, I'm defining "non-elite" to mean any mission that can be completed easily by taking a full complement of random folks in town without worrying 1 bit about professions or skill bars. For me, this means the Frost Gate mission and earlier. After you reach Kryta, your characters should have a nice selection of skills and you should be pickier about your bars.

Specificially for Flare, I was referring to my monk using it against the Ice Golems around Yaks. The missions and quests here are easy enough that a full time monk is unnecessary and those fire skills absolutely rock against ice monsters. When I'm in this area, I'll put flare, firestorm and Lava font on my bar along with some healing. Is it the best build for a monk? Probably not. But it's fun to play and it's effective and useful to the team in this area. Would I recommend it for the ice monsters outside of Droks? No Way!!! There, you need to concentrate on monking and bring along a fire ele if you wish.

HEY!!! I have a Mesmer/ranger and my main build just prior to sanctum Cay was apply poison Charm/Comfort animal and conjure phantasm. Apply poison works wonders especially when you encounter those interupt happy wind riders...

My character is sitting in the riverside provence mission right now :P

oh and BTW, I'm not a noob...just wanted a way to spread heavy degen around fast...

I still want to prove to my guild i can use my mesmer in Urgotz to trap on the fly...

you got to try new things in this world...hell for my monk on a survivor track, i have Tahlkora set up as a MM!!! It works...she is good with Death nova and jagged bones.

I posted it a while ago, but im sure I stated in my OP that elite missions were places such as Fissure of Woe, Sorrows Furnace, UnderWorld, DOA and the factions comparisons.

None-elite missions or quests in my view are anything else.

People constantly state that every non-elite mission and quest can be completed by a team of henches/heroes. If thats so, then why do we need these oober special PUG groups set up perfectly to do average missions.

I admit some non-elite missions need a bit more thought into them and you need monks and MMs and set builds for the odd one, but 9/10 of the rest you dont.

Its just a case of picking up some human players, jumping in and having fun.