anyone that plays guild wars has obviously noticed that there are probably millions of skill combinations. of course, not every combination will turn out to be a good build, but some will...and some will even change how we play the game as a whole, like the 55 monk, which eventually spread to other classes as well.
my question is this - was the 55 monk build purposley put into the game by it's creators to be eventually found out, or was it just by chance that all the skills and the -50hp grim cesta fit together perfectly?
if you ask me, it seems a little to complex to just be an accident. i cant really picture someone saying to themselves "hey, this grim cesta could be of some use!"...and then proceeded to make a build. it all fits together so perfectly to be an accident. not to mention the weeks of testing and math calculations they would have had to do to make the build work. or maybe it took the whole community to piece it together...i really dont know...maybe it was a perfect mistake or maybe it was put in with the intention to be found out.
The 55: accident or on purpose?
Dutch Masterr
Silly Warrior
When Anet made the game, they knew there were going to be skill combos they had never thought once about.
They also knew that some of these skill combos would be too powerful, and make the game unfair, the 55 is a good example.
How on earth could Anet have though " Man, if I get a Monk with all negative life down to 105, and then add the grim cesta in the beginning of the game to get down my life to 55, and THEN put on healing breeze and protective spirit, and lots of enchants, I could really kill alot of stuff fast?"
It was a 100% complete accident, nobody at Arenanet once thought that something that powerful could come out of something thought really stupid.
"55 health...how is that powerful?"
Point is, no, the answer is accident. Why would they put it in just to nerf the hell out of it?
They also knew that some of these skill combos would be too powerful, and make the game unfair, the 55 is a good example.
How on earth could Anet have though " Man, if I get a Monk with all negative life down to 105, and then add the grim cesta in the beginning of the game to get down my life to 55, and THEN put on healing breeze and protective spirit, and lots of enchants, I could really kill alot of stuff fast?"
It was a 100% complete accident, nobody at Arenanet once thought that something that powerful could come out of something thought really stupid.
"55 health...how is that powerful?"
Point is, no, the answer is accident. Why would they put it in just to nerf the hell out of it?
swiftygem
It'd be nice if some of the GW veterans could share their memories on this topic with us 
Like if it was one person, who first came with the 55 build, or if it was a merge from multiple builds....
Like if it was one person, who first came with the 55 build, or if it was a merge from multiple builds....
anti_z3r0
I remember a loooooong time ago before the 55 was introduced, on this forum some guy proposed a contest to solo the UW. One of his ideas was very similar to the 55. It was something like using runes to get down to 1 health and then using Prot Spirit and Aura of the Lich to mitigate the 1 damage that would be done so you couldn't ever take damage.
EDIT: I was wrong about a couple parts of his build, but here is the post: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=20392. It's his "The Lich" build.
EDIT 2: Wow, reading through the thread, it looks like some guy named Rith Raft made it on his own.
EDIT: I was wrong about a couple parts of his build, but here is the post: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=20392. It's his "The Lich" build.
EDIT 2: Wow, reading through the thread, it looks like some guy named Rith Raft made it on his own.
Acidic Won
The 55 originated from Protective Bond I believe which evetually got nerfed so a health drop was needed to use a skill similar called Protective Spirit. With the health dropped thy knew damage would rise about a certain amount unless it was life stealing.
I believe they found the cesta as a way to make the health drop further from a 105/135 or whatever. Then they realized a HoT (Heal over Time) was the best way to heal through the low damage taken because of Prot. Spirit. From there they just pieced skills together.
I believe they found the cesta as a way to make the health drop further from a 105/135 or whatever. Then they realized a HoT (Heal over Time) was the best way to heal through the low damage taken because of Prot. Spirit. From there they just pieced skills together.
Blame the Monks
Its pretty clear they didn't intend for it. Just look at aura of the lich -- it was intended to have a similar effect to a 55 (buffing regen) but was an elite and far less effective.
Antheus
55 wasn't the original build.
The earliest I remember is this:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=32980
Of course, people were probably running this even sooner, and that's just when it got posted.
But the original builds didn't involve PS/HB combo, since protective bond was so much better. Only after it got changed did the PS/HB alternative apear.
There were also some funny items to be found in Prophecies PvE, with -50 cesta being just one of them.
The concept that you can lower your health and that there are skills which make that irrelevant was designed. This isn't really a problem, since even mild enchant removal, interrupts or life stealing will destroy PS/HB build.
It's an interesting build, but nothing that was designed.
If anything, the -50 cesta was added for sacrifice skills (hence, the requirement), where having less health is better, and obviously you can run that build as many do today, with blood renewal and PS, both of which are fueled by soul reaping. That would be the probably original intent of that cesta.
The earliest I remember is this:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=32980
Of course, people were probably running this even sooner, and that's just when it got posted.
But the original builds didn't involve PS/HB combo, since protective bond was so much better. Only after it got changed did the PS/HB alternative apear.
There were also some funny items to be found in Prophecies PvE, with -50 cesta being just one of them.
The concept that you can lower your health and that there are skills which make that irrelevant was designed. This isn't really a problem, since even mild enchant removal, interrupts or life stealing will destroy PS/HB build.
It's an interesting build, but nothing that was designed.
If anything, the -50 cesta was added for sacrifice skills (hence, the requirement), where having less health is better, and obviously you can run that build as many do today, with blood renewal and PS, both of which are fueled by soul reaping. That would be the probably original intent of that cesta.
Yanman.be
I know it started with level 3's or something outside Lion's Arch. I believe.
Earendil
Its not the 55 that was bugged. It was the "less than x% damage" you could find on Protective bond and spirit. The concept of a protection scaling on your max HP is the tricky one.
It was basically a "how can I abuse this skill" story. Every time there are new skills and nerfs/buffs - this is the first quetion some people ask themselves. Skill abusing was and will always be a constant trend in GW.
You have protective bond. Reduces all damage taken to 5%. Costs energy but energy can be recovered through ebond and bspirit (back then at least). Then you have the attributes swapping, level 17 Pbond that only costs 1 energy and actually acts as an energy engine...awesome. The next step is to cut down your HP to minimum....doesnt take too much to realise its 55.
Historically, the build was present in the early summer 2005 (if not before). Around july 2005 the info was posted on several forums (causing endless flames and anger "Why did you have to tell everyone noob???? now Anet is going to nerf it!!") The best indicator was that in about 1-2 weeks, the price of superior monk runes at the merchants jumped from 3-400 to 20k. I bought mine somewhere in june for about 400 gold a piece (a friend described me the build) and a few weeks later the monk superiors prices were skyrocketting.
There are simple changes that anet could make to make 55s impossible. The simpliest is to cap the damage reduction to something like 20. This way, the use on Prot spirit in PvP would be unaffected while all 55 soloing builds would become impossible. They never did it - there are other ways of farming besides the 55 monks or necros anyway. I personally find the variations on those builds actually refreshing.
It was basically a "how can I abuse this skill" story. Every time there are new skills and nerfs/buffs - this is the first quetion some people ask themselves. Skill abusing was and will always be a constant trend in GW.
You have protective bond. Reduces all damage taken to 5%. Costs energy but energy can be recovered through ebond and bspirit (back then at least). Then you have the attributes swapping, level 17 Pbond that only costs 1 energy and actually acts as an energy engine...awesome. The next step is to cut down your HP to minimum....doesnt take too much to realise its 55.
Historically, the build was present in the early summer 2005 (if not before). Around july 2005 the info was posted on several forums (causing endless flames and anger "Why did you have to tell everyone noob???? now Anet is going to nerf it!!") The best indicator was that in about 1-2 weeks, the price of superior monk runes at the merchants jumped from 3-400 to 20k. I bought mine somewhere in june for about 400 gold a piece (a friend described me the build) and a few weeks later the monk superiors prices were skyrocketting.
There are simple changes that anet could make to make 55s impossible. The simpliest is to cap the damage reduction to something like 20. This way, the use on Prot spirit in PvP would be unaffected while all 55 soloing builds would become impossible. They never did it - there are other ways of farming besides the 55 monks or necros anyway. I personally find the variations on those builds actually refreshing.
CagedinSanity
I have a "HOW are 55's so good?" thread in Monk discussion. I mentioned I have encoutnered like 5 of them, 4 of which died (forgot about the 5th, they might have left or something) and 2 of them dead by my hand. Easy kills, really quite pathetic.
Though I wish I had known about it before, I would have bought those runes, If i had known they'd go up to 7k as they are today.
Though I wish I had known about it before, I would have bought those runes, If i had known they'd go up to 7k as they are today.
manitoba1073
Ill tell you one way it started. about 10 days after release i was tanking on my war in UW for a group of friends. When a monk friend of mine told me to die a couple times so i did. Then he started to use prot bond mending and watchful on me and after that i noticed the very small amount damage i was taking. my version took of from that experience.
Gun Pierson
I remember the unnerfed protective bond build back in the days. About the 55 setup, one must admit it's a brilliant combination of skills, runes and weapons. It's really an example of thinking out of the box. I'm pretty sure Anet didn't see that one coming.
The 55 build deserves respect for its originality and efficiency.
The 55 build deserves respect for its originality and efficiency.
VitisVinifera
I'll go one further: anerf is pretty much clueless about the skills they make. They throw them out there, and see what "needs" nerfing. They have us do their playtesting for them (sometimes calling these things 'event's lol), and sit back and watch.
Dutch Masterr
Quote:
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Originally Posted by manitoba1073
Ill tell you one way it started. about 10 days after release i was tanking on my war in UW for a group of friends. When a monk friend of mine told me to die a couple times so i did. Then he started to use prot bond mending and watchful on me and after that i noticed the very small amount damage i was taking. my version took of from that experience.
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Kotetsu Rain
This has to be accidental...I mean you could then look at any other build out there thats actually good at killing stuff fast. Like that silver armor troll farmer ele or even better the A/E solo green farmer. It was thought up of people with incredibly cool braincells and creativity. Anet just gave them the tools.
I mean if you bring it into a real life situation I can compare this question to...Ice Cream Sundaes. Who could of thought that byy using the plain simple ingredients of plain ice cream, cherry's, nuts, choclate sryup, and caramel (sometimes even sprinkles) and but them together to make one hell of a treat on a hot day. Same goes for pizza...and probably other foods.
Total accident...besides like someone said "Why would Anet put skills in the game just to nerf them?"
Then again it wouldn't be the first time that Anet decided to make the game 'more fun' at the expense of some former great skills.
I mean if you bring it into a real life situation I can compare this question to...Ice Cream Sundaes. Who could of thought that byy using the plain simple ingredients of plain ice cream, cherry's, nuts, choclate sryup, and caramel (sometimes even sprinkles) and but them together to make one hell of a treat on a hot day. Same goes for pizza...and probably other foods.
Total accident...besides like someone said "Why would Anet put skills in the game just to nerf them?"
Then again it wouldn't be the first time that Anet decided to make the game 'more fun' at the expense of some former great skills.
Malice Black
Accident.
End of story.
End of story.
wynoski
Quote:
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Originally Posted by CagedinSanity
I have a "HOW are 55's so good?" thread in Monk discussion. I mentioned I have encoutnered like 5 of them, 4 of which died (forgot about the 5th, they might have left or something) and 2 of them dead by my hand. Easy kills, really quite pathetic.
Though I wish I had known about it before, I would have bought those runes, If i had known they'd go up to 7k as they are today. |
Also at certain times I run a 1 hp BIP...that way sacrifice skills have 0 damage and the monks leave me alone...I just have to stay WAY back
From a necro perspective the best way to do this is to try and get killed and get down to about 13-18 hp..that way Prot spirit allows only 2 damage...unless its life stealing.
CDittric77
Quote:
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Originally Posted by VitisVinifera
I'll go one further: anerf is pretty much clueless about the skills they make. They throw them out there, and see what "needs" nerfing. They have us do their playtesting for them (sometimes calling these things 'event's lol), and sit back and watch.
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Skuld
Quote:
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Originally Posted by CagedinSanity
I have a "HOW are 55's so good?" thread in Monk discussion. I mentioned I have encoutnered like 5 of them, 4 of which died (forgot about the 5th, they might have left or something) and 2 of them dead by my hand. Easy kills, really quite pathetic.
Though I wish I had known about it before, I would have bought those runes, If i had known they'd go up to 7k as they are today. |
ca_aok
It's sort of like the touch ranger... I doubt ANET sat there thinking "hmm... if a ranger primary uses 16 expertise to allow him to spam low cost lifesteal skills that ignore armor, and couple it with OoB, it could be really strong!" People simply come along and make these inventive builds, and if they work, they're instantly abused by everyone in the game.
I miss the old prot bond though
I miss the old prot bond though
Age
Quote:
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Originally Posted by anti_z3r0
I remember a loooooong time ago before the 55 was introduced, on this forum some guy proposed a contest to solo the UW. One of his ideas was very similar to the 55. It was something like using runes to get down to 1 health and then using Prot Spirit and Aura of the Lich to mitigate the 1 damage that would be done so you couldn't ever take damage.
EDIT: I was wrong about a couple parts of his build, but here is the post: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=20392. It's his "The Lich" build. EDIT 2: Wow, reading through the thread, it looks like some guy named Rith Raft made it on his own. |
aB-
The 55 build is the best build created in Guild Wars PvE, hands down. The creativity is simply amazing. Seeing some of these old threads sure brings back memories like divine boon spam to trigger zealot's fire. Man, those were the days...
Riceboi
lol Back on June 13 2005 Ecto was going for around 1k. 
manitoba1073
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Dutch Masterr
let me get this straight....you were playing in the underworld 10 days after the release of the game? or 10 days after the 55 monk went public?
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though i will say i didnt know of the -50 cesta for while and used 105, still same build though
Maxiemonster
That getting 55 Health was possible, and having Protective Spirit/Bond was an accident. I'm pretty sure it was different with Spirit Bond and Shield of Absorption though, which both made the 55 much stronger.
Morganas
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Age
Wrong one of the founders and that brought me on to The Guru is this person as to the 55 and it was Protective Bond not Spirit and you didn't need any elites back then.The Orignial 55 Build By jelly samwich It is called negate not mitigate as mitigate is a legal term used in civil law suits.Monks Negate damage with protection not mitigate.
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No one person invented the 55 monk. It's just like the original boon prot, several people stumbled upon the idea independently, and it grew from there.
explodemyheart
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Age
It is called negate not mitigate as mitigate is a legal term used in civil law suits.Monks Negate damage with protection not mitigate.
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Patrick Smit
Oxford dictionary of english supports Explodemyheart.
Most "abuse" or synergy between skills, weapons and armor, spawns by stochastic events. So chance is that a number of people will come up with a similar idea. Its inevitable. The only question is how much time it will take for a build to be thought of. Fate or determinism is such "human" concept. So much literature in science allready show that determinism or fate do not excist. Many people will still argue that you don't know all parameters and therefore are not able to determine the outcome. But something as small and simple as quantummechanics already shows that that hypothesis cannot hold.
Thats why GW is so nice, so many combinations possible compared to other games. Problem is that most/lots of skills can be removed from the equation as they just suck.
Most "abuse" or synergy between skills, weapons and armor, spawns by stochastic events. So chance is that a number of people will come up with a similar idea. Its inevitable. The only question is how much time it will take for a build to be thought of. Fate or determinism is such "human" concept. So much literature in science allready show that determinism or fate do not excist. Many people will still argue that you don't know all parameters and therefore are not able to determine the outcome. But something as small and simple as quantummechanics already shows that that hypothesis cannot hold.
Thats why GW is so nice, so many combinations possible compared to other games. Problem is that most/lots of skills can be removed from the equation as they just suck.
xlaelx
may a noob ask:
what the hell is 55 monk build?
what does it do?
what the hell is 55 monk build?
what does it do?
Makkert
The first forms of 55 monk were definetely an accident.
They were followed-up with nerfs (protective bond i.e.) and adjusting of enemies (Dying Nightmare; Factions enemypools with often either enchantremoval or lifestealing).
Its hard to say the current 55 is an 'accident' anymore, as Anet is of course well aware of them.
They were followed-up with nerfs (protective bond i.e.) and adjusting of enemies (Dying Nightmare; Factions enemypools with often either enchantremoval or lifestealing).
Its hard to say the current 55 is an 'accident' anymore, as Anet is of course well aware of them.
disarm76
That reminds me of the SV/AV unwaking waters farming. If I remember correctly the one of the first player who came up with that build was by accident.
He happened to use SV (or AV) while in range of Famine and was astonished how the mobs died in a second!
He happened to use SV (or AV) while in range of Famine and was astonished how the mobs died in a second!
Etta
I still use my 55 from time to time and in some area the build still work just like before.
BTW Disarm76 that place is call Unwaking waters not un-WANKING lol, people from the UK will know what i mean,
BTW Disarm76 that place is call Unwaking waters not un-WANKING lol, people from the UK will know what i mean,
Psuedo Halgoen
lol i'm from australia and i hope it means the same thing in the uk that it does here.
disarm76
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Etta
I still use my 55 from time to time and in some area the build still work just like before.
BTW Disarm76 that place is call Unwaking waters not un-WANKING lol, people from the UK will know what i mean, |
strcpy
Quote:
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Originally Posted by disarm76
Freaking firefox corrector :S
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I remember first hearing about a "105 hp build" when monk superior runes were *cheap*. Never really interested me, not into that type of farming so I didn't pay much attention (well, other than the massive inflation that occurred during that period). I also remember when the first "nerfs" to the build happened and people adjusted to the 55'er build. Especially given the state of the economy (can we say "inflation"?) and their reset I would say a very big accident. Amusingly enough the reset was also one of the bigger "oops" that has occurred (ecto for 100 gold?). Probably the only PvE only skill balance I remember.
seut
my variation of the old low hp uw solo build:
i was too cheap to buy all runes or go get a -50hp cesta and did this with 225hp
Protective Bond
Essence Bond
Balthazar's Spirit
Blessed Signet
Zealot's Fire
Divine Boon
Balthazar's Aura
Shield of Judgment
note: no Healing Breeze or Bonetti's Defense!
step1: casting a 17prot Protective Bond (my record was around 30tries until i finally had the -1energy... so much for 20% chance for +1)
step2: shift attribute points from prot to smite (you had most refund points back after killing 6aatxes)
step3: cast Essence Bond & BSpirit and get back to max energy
step4: cast ZFire, aggro and spam Boon (mix in BAura & SoJ when bored..)
Back then Divine Boon had no recharge and worked as sole heal and main damage dealer in combination with ZFire.
It took me about 20-30 runs to get enough ecto for my monk FoW (up to 6ectos dropped and you only had to fear the ele lizards casting rust on you).
That build was so boring that i quit GW for a while after i got my armor
i was too cheap to buy all runes or go get a -50hp cesta and did this with 225hp
Protective Bond
Essence Bond
Balthazar's Spirit
Blessed Signet
Zealot's Fire
Divine Boon
Balthazar's Aura
Shield of Judgment
note: no Healing Breeze or Bonetti's Defense!
step1: casting a 17prot Protective Bond (my record was around 30tries until i finally had the -1energy... so much for 20% chance for +1)
step2: shift attribute points from prot to smite (you had most refund points back after killing 6aatxes)
step3: cast Essence Bond & BSpirit and get back to max energy
step4: cast ZFire, aggro and spam Boon (mix in BAura & SoJ when bored..)
Back then Divine Boon had no recharge and worked as sole heal and main damage dealer in combination with ZFire.
It took me about 20-30 runs to get enough ecto for my monk FoW (up to 6ectos dropped and you only had to fear the ele lizards casting rust on you).
That build was so boring that i quit GW for a while after i got my armor
fgarvin
Part of missing the good ol' days is of course missing the easy farming, but it's also missing the fun. Being able to group up a huge mob and take them out in seconds was a blast. We need a pre-nerf weekend.
Rusty Deth
Ahthe old Protection Bond monk...
Used it for 3 days then it got nerfed. Didn't have any Ecto's to show for it either.
But damn if it wasn't a UW cleaner.
Used it for 3 days then it got nerfed. Didn't have any Ecto's to show for it either.
But damn if it wasn't a UW cleaner.
Xenrath
The whole point of Superior runes is you get an attribute boost but with a health PENALTY. The more you use the more attribute boosts you get but you also become penalised to balance it by having less health.
It's extremely unlikely Anet meant for something like the 55hp builds to happen by design, since it's (ab)using the penalties to turn into a net BENEFIT.
I still maintain this kind of build is borderline (if not is) exploitative and not in the spirit of the game.
It's extremely unlikely Anet meant for something like the 55hp builds to happen by design, since it's (ab)using the penalties to turn into a net BENEFIT.
I still maintain this kind of build is borderline (if not is) exploitative and not in the spirit of the game.
SotiCoto
Quote:
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Originally Posted by disarm76
That reminds me of the SV/AV unwaking waters farming. If I remember correctly the one of the first player who came up with that build was by accident.
He happened to use SV (or AV) while in range of Famine and was astonished how the mobs died in a second! |