Minion Degen... wtf is going on?
Sujoy
Is it just me, or the Minions HP degenrates faster then ever... I'd be willing to suppose 2x faster?
Osi Ri S
i dont know but it seems like Anet wants to nerf MM into nothing. First they nerf Vateras Sacrifice to Oblivion, that along with 10 minion cap (wasnt completely bad). THEN they nerf Jagged bones to crap. THEN they make paragon shouts only work on party members (no "Stand Your Ground" for minions *snif*) then this (if they really did do this) i dont see the justification.
/rant
O well at least we still have Order of the Undead (crap shouldnt have said that, in about a week that will be destroyed :/)
/rant
O well at least we still have Order of the Undead (crap shouldnt have said that, in about a week that will be destroyed :/)
Shuuda
well, 2 things:
1: MMs needed a bit of a nerf because of the whole "Easy way out of a mission", nerfing MMs could make PvE more challenging(Which is what most people want)
2: MMs still work fine, they were fine before Jagged bones, they are after.
1: MMs needed a bit of a nerf because of the whole "Easy way out of a mission", nerfing MMs could make PvE more challenging(Which is what most people want)
2: MMs still work fine, they were fine before Jagged bones, they are after.
Arkantos
MMs need nerfing? 10 minion limit and verata's sacrifice. MMs have been nerfed ALOT since what they used to be...no need to kill them.
Turbobusa
I had problems keeping my army up the other day, maybe thats related.
need to find some test to verify this
need to find some test to verify this
Sujoy
Its like If I dont spam BotM... my minions just die.
Cathode_Reborn
Can anyone confirm this? It sounds like people are just seeing things, but not sure yet.
If this is true, I might say it's probably for the better. An MM can pretty much steam roll mobs in almost every mission. The're also really easy to play, which seems kinda like a prob considering how much damage they can do, etc.
EDIT: Just tested, everything seems the same.
If this is true, I might say it's probably for the better. An MM can pretty much steam roll mobs in almost every mission. The're also really easy to play, which seems kinda like a prob considering how much damage they can do, etc.
EDIT: Just tested, everything seems the same.
Ozric
Seems the same to me, and since when don't you spam BoTM anyway?
Just capped OoU over the weekend and checked it out in Tombs,...well, I say I just checked it out, but it's like crack now.
Ridiculously overpowered. Huge mobs being erased in no time. Rangers with jaws dropped, the monk wondering wth going on with the mm's health. Good stuff.
Just capped OoU over the weekend and checked it out in Tombs,...well, I say I just checked it out, but it's like crack now.
Ridiculously overpowered. Huge mobs being erased in no time. Rangers with jaws dropped, the monk wondering wth going on with the mm's health. Good stuff.
Naf Olbaid
The aim of a MM is to constantly refresh his minions before they get to the stage of being in "uber degen mode". Just hit those create minion buttons every time theres a corpse available, and your oldest minion will automatically die and be replaced by a fresh, healthier one.
Osi Ri S
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozric
Seems the same to me, and since when don't you spam BoTM anyway?
Just capped OoU over the weekend and checked it out in Tombs,...well, I say I just checked it out, but it's like crack now.
Ridiculously overpowered. Huge mobs being erased in no time. Rangers with jaws dropped, the monk wondering wth going on with the mm's health. Good stuff. I know what you mean lol. I cant stand to MM without OoU now, im too spoiled with it.
Just capped OoU over the weekend and checked it out in Tombs,...well, I say I just checked it out, but it's like crack now.
Ridiculously overpowered. Huge mobs being erased in no time. Rangers with jaws dropped, the monk wondering wth going on with the mm's health. Good stuff. I know what you mean lol. I cant stand to MM without OoU now, im too spoiled with it.
flyinhigh
just tested on the isle of the nameless, lvl 18 bone horrors vamp horrors and fiends all lasts 1:24 with out any healing. same as always.
BryanM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkantos
MMs need nerfing? 10 minion limit and verata's sacrifice. MMs have been nerfed ALOT since what they used to be...no need to kill them.
Minion Masters have never been nerfed. They were buffed like hell. Verata's Sacrifice was complete crap compared to the blood of the master they handed us back instead. I don't ever remember maintaining 60 minions with maximum degen by pushing one button over and over.
Minions do need deserve to be nerfed. Let's do the test:
1. Is anything else better than this build in PvE in general use?
The answer is no. If there are exploitable corpses, you use them. Death is one attribute, you can do ANYTHING else you want in PvE that uses a single line. Shambling and Fiend = 2 skill slots, another for Blood of the Master if you will. Death Nova if you happen to be an AI. No other Death skills are "worth" using. 10-12 in the other attribute.
As long as Soul Reaping is as massively overpowered as it is, you have no excuse to use anything but a necromancer in general PvE teams.
Realistically how should they be nerfed?
1. Minion cap of 5-6. They'd have about the same dps as a warrior in that case, and still offer a good measure of the team defense they give right now.
2. Blood of the Master should be pulled down in the heal by 3/4's, or moved to blood.
3. You should only be able to reap the souls of your own minions.
Even then, they'd still be worth using. So worth it.
It'd be nice for them to deal with the Soul Reaping issue and make Jagged Bones usable again. It was cool having Death be an active (instead of passive) damage line.
Minions do need deserve to be nerfed. Let's do the test:
1. Is anything else better than this build in PvE in general use?
The answer is no. If there are exploitable corpses, you use them. Death is one attribute, you can do ANYTHING else you want in PvE that uses a single line. Shambling and Fiend = 2 skill slots, another for Blood of the Master if you will. Death Nova if you happen to be an AI. No other Death skills are "worth" using. 10-12 in the other attribute.
As long as Soul Reaping is as massively overpowered as it is, you have no excuse to use anything but a necromancer in general PvE teams.
Realistically how should they be nerfed?
1. Minion cap of 5-6. They'd have about the same dps as a warrior in that case, and still offer a good measure of the team defense they give right now.
2. Blood of the Master should be pulled down in the heal by 3/4's, or moved to blood.
3. You should only be able to reap the souls of your own minions.
Even then, they'd still be worth using. So worth it.
It'd be nice for them to deal with the Soul Reaping issue and make Jagged Bones usable again. It was cool having Death be an active (instead of passive) damage line.
Cathode_Reborn
Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanM
Minion Masters have never been nerfed. They were buffed like hell. Verata's Sacrifice was complete crap compared to the blood of the master they handed us back instead. I don't ever remember maintaining 60 minions with maximum degen by pushing one button over and over.
...O_o
MM's have been nerfed tons of times. I can't remember the last time they got buffed. Verata's is crap now, but used to be awesome back then.
Btw, that's exacly what people did. For the fun of it, you'd go to a low level area and completely kill everything and rack up on as many minions as you can since there was no limit. Or go to the Isle of the Nameless and kill all the wooden targets for easy corpses.
Anyways, I do agree.....MM's need another nerf. Every pve nec is now an MM. A pve nec who isn't an MM is actually pretty rare now. Just about everyone has a lvl20 Olias who's also set to MM. They're extremely effective yet require almost no skill or effort to use.
Reduce the minion cap again, or make it much harder to keep up 10 minions.
MM's have been nerfed tons of times. I can't remember the last time they got buffed. Verata's is crap now, but used to be awesome back then.
Btw, that's exacly what people did. For the fun of it, you'd go to a low level area and completely kill everything and rack up on as many minions as you can since there was no limit. Or go to the Isle of the Nameless and kill all the wooden targets for easy corpses.
Anyways, I do agree.....MM's need another nerf. Every pve nec is now an MM. A pve nec who isn't an MM is actually pretty rare now. Just about everyone has a lvl20 Olias who's also set to MM. They're extremely effective yet require almost no skill or effort to use.
Reduce the minion cap again, or make it much harder to keep up 10 minions.
Crazyvietguy
IMO MMing is a talent, a decent MM needs to know what they are doing. Sure any MM can just hit Blood of the master until they are bleeding from the ears but a good MM can literally cripple an opposing mob. So if you nerf Minion Masters you probably should nerf fire magic users because they make up a large precentage of the PvE community and if used right can be devastating. The reason MMing is so popular is because it is the THE MOST effective build a casual player can use. So until something else comes out that is as versatile and effective as MMing its here to stay.
I dont even play an MM but i definently dont think they cap should be lowered or make it any harder to use minions. We dont need the necros popularity to move into PvE Mesmer range.
I dont even play an MM but i definently dont think they cap should be lowered or make it any harder to use minions. We dont need the necros popularity to move into PvE Mesmer range.
BryanM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn
MM's have been nerfed tons of times.
Verata's sacrifice was made annoying to use, and useless to anyone who plans on controlling minions. Minion factories now have a limit.
The Minion Master, as a character, was buffed into the stratosphere. Blood of the Master is forty times as powerful as the old Verata's.
Shambling Lobster is completely better than Bone Horrors. The recharge is significant, but comes up in about the ratio you'd want to make melee and fiends. Power creep for the win.
The Minion Master, as a character, was buffed into the stratosphere. Blood of the Master is forty times as powerful as the old Verata's.
Shambling Lobster is completely better than Bone Horrors. The recharge is significant, but comes up in about the ratio you'd want to make melee and fiends. Power creep for the win.
jayce
Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanM
It'd be nice for them to deal with the Soul Reaping issue and make Jagged Bones usable again. It was cool having Death be an active (instead of passive) damage line.
Quote:
Anyways, I do agree.....MM's need another nerf. Every pve nec is now an MM. A pve nec who isn't an MM is actually pretty rare now. Just about everyone has a lvl20 Olias who's also set to MM. They're extremely effective yet require almost no skill or effort to use.
Reduce the minion cap again, or make it much harder to keep up 10 minions. so let me get this straight. just because the majority of necromancers enjoy playing mainly as the class's defining role, then we should nerf it, again? and what does this have to do with minion degen?
Jayce Of Underworld
------------------------------------------------
Animate Soul Lich
Energy: 25
Cast: 3
Recharge: 0
Elite Skill. Animate a level 1...14 Soul Lich
at your location and you lose all energy. You
suffer -1 energy regeneration for each Soul Lich
you control. Whenever a Soul Lich you control
deals damage, you gain 2 energy.(Soul Reaping)
Reduce the minion cap again, or make it much harder to keep up 10 minions. so let me get this straight. just because the majority of necromancers enjoy playing mainly as the class's defining role, then we should nerf it, again? and what does this have to do with minion degen?
Jayce Of Underworld
------------------------------------------------
Animate Soul Lich
Energy: 25
Cast: 3
Recharge: 0
Elite Skill. Animate a level 1...14 Soul Lich
at your location and you lose all energy. You
suffer -1 energy regeneration for each Soul Lich
you control. Whenever a Soul Lich you control
deals damage, you gain 2 energy.(Soul Reaping)
Cathode_Reborn
Quote:
Originally Posted by jayce
so let me get this straight. just because the majority of necromancers enjoy playing mainly as the class's defining role, then we should nerf it, again? and what does this have to do with minion degen?
Lots of people enjoy playing overpowered builds, especially when they require little effort to run. Every pve ele loves using Fire magic, but Fire magic isn't overpowered like MM'ing is. It's really easy to MM, yet you'll probably be doing the most damage out of everyone in your party. You could also easily save your monks tons of work/energy when the stupid ai starts attacking the minions, and even waste harmful hexes on them. Once you got 10 minions up, the rest of your party won't have to do much cause the minions alone will make short work of everything. But, it's only pve so it doesn't really matter. Doesn't mean I'm askin that they be nerfed into oblivion.
Btw, this has nothin to do with minion degen, but oh well
Btw, this has nothin to do with minion degen, but oh well
Arkantos
MM's need to be nerfed because they are overpowered in PvE? WOOOOW. There are so many things overpowered in PvE, why doesn't anyone whine about them? I honestly don't know why people want to nerf PvE builds. MM's affect nobody. They have been nerfed alot of times. Leave them be. If you think MM's are overpowered and make PvE 100x easier, then don't use them.
flyinhigh
here is a thought, if MM'ing is the easy way out and it takes no challenge and you want a harder game, go blood. no one is holding a gun to your head saying MM OR DIE! and MM'ing is not the build for everywhere, any monster that does decent aoe dmg can destroy a minion army.
Miss Eisei
Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanM
3. You should only be able to reap the souls of your own minions.
HAHA
what a joke to play necro in that case, soul reaping would be useless for anything else then a mm, messing up soul reaping more then it already is would make necros kinda useless, and yes i say its messed up, cause there isnt alot of good stuff under the attribute of soul reaping, only good part is that u gain nrg from deaths
HAHA
what a joke to play necro in that case, soul reaping would be useless for anything else then a mm, messing up soul reaping more then it already is would make necros kinda useless, and yes i say its messed up, cause there isnt alot of good stuff under the attribute of soul reaping, only good part is that u gain nrg from deaths
Cathode_Reborn
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Eisei
what a joke to play necro in that case, soul reaping would be useless for anything else then a mm,
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by flyinhigh
here is a thought, if MM'ing is the easy way out and it takes no challenge and you want a harder game, go blood. no one is holding a gun to your head saying MM OR DIE! and MM'ing is not the build for everywhere, any monster that does decent aoe dmg can destroy a minion army.
I do use blood. When you and 2 heroes are set to blood spike, everything dies pretty fast.
Aoe dmg isn't much when you're sitting there spamming botm =p BryanM
...Anyway, there is currently no minion degen in the game, they can stand almost unlimited AoE, and you have no reason to have anything but necromancers in your PvE party if you want to be the most effective. And no nerf happened.
Originally Posted by Miss Eisei
Quote: |
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Arkantos
There are so many things overpowered in PvE, why doesn't anyone whine about them?
So... there's something more overpowered than 8 necromancers with 16 death with 2 animate spells? There's something..... that even comes close to that?
flyinhigh
Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanM
...Anyway, there is currently no minion degen in the game, they can stand almost unlimited AoE
wtf? no minion degen?
BryanM
Nope. Push that Blood of the Master button and every minion in sight has the equivalent of about 20 regen. And since this isn't Verata's Sacrifice, it ignores the sub 10 decay they eventually get. Really old minions get the equivalent of 10 regen. That's the state of the game. Just don't cut yourself to death.
Stoneys Rock
Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanM
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Quote: Originally Posted by BryanM I'm pretty sure he meant changing it so you can't gain energy from minions you arn't controlling. in some respects thats okay but...that would mean I would need a blood ritual or a B-I-P every two minutes while we're not fighting, soul reaping was made for necromancers mms and others not included, lets keep it that way.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by BryanM
So... there's something more overpowered than 8 necromancers with 16 death with 2 animate spells? There's something..... that even comes close to that?
8 eles with pre nerf searing flames. Although once players, creatures aim for the mm they are knackered because the minions go feral and attack the others.
ZenRgy
Jagged bones was nerfed due to it's ability to be the ultimate battery skill in the game.
MM's are still viable in PvE, I play it a lot - I never liked jagged bones to tell you the truth in PvE, the amount of corpses meant I'd have constant minions anyway. I'm tempted to try make a build from Order of Undeath instead of using cookie cutter Flesh Golem.
Valeria
MMs are still easy to play.
Blood of the master healing all you minions and not only the ones close to you was the biggest improvement ever (i couldn't even heal all of them when theystood in a circle around me). Ok maybe Veratas sacrifice isn't that useful anymore but i really don't need it anyway. The best thing anet could do for MMs would be a way to select the nearest minion or have some kind of control panel for them(something like symbols for controlling 1 flesh golem and 3 bone horrors and selecting the next one once i klick on the bone horror symbol). I hardly use death nova...Olias is much better at using it.
Priest Of Sin
Decent MMs use OoU with 10 Bone Fiends
 MMing is a skill, you have to know when to use a minion and when it's more advantageous to use a well, you have to know if there will be CORPSES in the mission... you have to know how to squeeze the most out of every minion, you have to know how to position them. And more importantly, you have to learn to function without Vampiric Horrors (utter waste of energy IMO) MMing got what it had coming, the 10 cap is fine, since it's easier to recycle minions. Kali Magdalene
Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanM
Nope. Push that Blood of the Master button and every minion in sight has the equivalent of about 20 regen. And since this isn't Verata's Sacrifice, it ignores the sub 10 decay they eventually get. Really old minions get the equivalent of 10 regen. That's the state of the game. Just don't cut yourself to death.
So you're saying you haven't actually played an MM?
That's good to know. Okay, that was sarcastic. I'm just saying that there really is a difference between a fresh set of minions hitting an enemy and a set at max degen. Yes, blood of the master can counter the degen, but when you add actual combat, the minions collapse fairly quickly, and you won't be spamming BotM because you'll be animating new minions. pingu666
Quote:
Originally Posted by Priest Of Sin
Decent MMs use OoU with 10 Bone Fiends
MMing is a skill, you have to know when to use a minion and when it's more advantageous to use a well, you have to know if there will be CORPSES in the mission... you have to know how to squeeze the most out of every minion, you have to know how to position them. And more importantly, you have to learn to function without Vampiric Horrors (utter waste of energy IMO) MMing got what it had coming, the 10 cap is fine, since it's easier to recycle minions. my experience as a MM, and playing with other MM's on other classes, having only fiends is sux as you loose the tankage and meatshield from the minions..
Cathode_Reborn
Quote:
Originally Posted by pingu666
my experience as a MM, and playing with other MM's on other classes, having only fiends is sux as you loose the tankage and meatshield from the minions..
Melee minions are slow and weak. 10 Fiends does massive damage compared to every other non-elite minion. How exacly do you lose the meatshield? 10 minions isn't a meatshield? Doesn't matter whether they're Fiends or Horrors, they're gonna get targeted and attacked. Any minion can act as a meatshield.
Corpselooter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn
Melee minions are slow and weak. 10 Fiends does massive damage compared to every other non-elite minion. How exacly do you lose the meatshield? 10 minions isn't a meatshield? Doesn't matter whether they're Fiends or Horrors, they're gonna get targeted and attacked. Any minion can act as a meatshield.
QFT. Seriously, QFT.
Vorianatriedes
Yeh I find that Blood of the Master is useless now as their degen is too fast. I ende up just spamming animate bone minions in order to keep my minion level decentish. These nerfs are crap. I fidn its really hard to get mroe than 6 minions at a time for awhile. I dread what they are going to do next.
Turbobusa
^well if you MM without BotM, it doesn't surprise me if you cant keep more than 6 minions. with it you can keep you army up during downtimes, no reason to not bring it.
or try jagged bones. Vorianatriedes
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbobusa
^well if you MM without BotM, it doesn't surprise me if you cant keep more than 6 minions. with it you can keep you army up during downtimes, no reason to not bring it.
or try jagged bones. I bring it but rarely use it in the underworld as the minions just die too quickly, if I go in with 6 minions after my fourth use of it they will all be dead so I find its better to spam animate bone minions, or other minion creating skills. The good thing about animate bone minions is they give you a nice supply of energy helping bring out the Fleshie and bone fiends, along with their being two people to minions to kill rather ratehr than one. I think their combined hp is more than any one of any other minion apart from fleshies. I wouldnt know how to find this out though. Blood of the master id goog in down times or when you have 10 minions as it seem to work better then, but apart fro mthat I dont use it as much as animate bone minions in thr underworld. kazjun
Are you trying to tank aataxes with minions? Cause if you are then of course you're not going to get ten minions before they all get killed. And there is nothing wrong with animating new minions. They're just meatbags you know, not like you get attached to them and try and keep the same ones alive throughout a zone. As soon as a corpse is available, animate it. Refreshing your minions goes a long way to countering degen. Its only in between battles and while you're travelling that healing like BotM comes into play.
widowdaballa
Any decent MM wouldn't even need an Elite.
Seriously, why would you want to use OoU for anything other than a high level boss? For that kind of damage, I take barbs. Sure, you can still throw in OoU along with barbs for max damage. Yes, MMing is a skill, or art, etc. But is also a pretty easy "art" to run. BryanM
The Lobster (aka Shambling Horror) is the only melee minion really worth bringing. It's on a recharge at about the same ratio you'd want melee to Fiends to be raised, and have more endurance than the horrors from their reincarnation.
Having to use Aura of Lich just so Blood of the Master won't kill you outright is hilariously wonderful. |
