Some people say PvE is too easy. Others find certain missions nearly impossible. Basically, the variance in skill level across the population of this forum is pretty high. I imagine it would be just as high across the whole game, although the average skill level itself would probably be lower. After all, forums = information = skill.
So, how difficult would you like PvE to be? Would you like it being mostly easy areas, like shing-jea/istan/kryta? Or would you like realm of torment to be bigger and have more than just 3 difficult missions per campaign? Another DoA, perhaps?
Personally, I'd want more of the game to be like the harder areas in realm of torment, but not downright crazy like DoA.
Why? Because I actually found them fun. I mostly PvP, but a couple days ago the guild and friend list were pretty dry, so I decided to do some PvE. I took a couple quests that I didn't bother with when I was going through the game for the first time and went out into Domain of Fear with my usual frontloaded build that's designed to streamroll everything before it can say "ow" (SS, MM, 2x barrage/gfte, sandstorm hench, paragon hench, 2x monk hench) ...and I got my ass handed to me by two packs of lvl 28 water eles in about 3 minutes.
Getting owned like that in PvE actually made me rethink my build instead of just aggroing slightly less. :P Even then the areas were fairly difficult and I had to be careful about not fighting in patrol paths and doing a lot of micro with the heroes. I even felt like I accomplished something when I got to the end of the quest. Although, why is the final encounter in a master's difficulty quest (The Fortune Teller) easier than what I had to kill in order to get there? Can anyone explain the design behind that?
But I digress... what I meant to say with this little story is that challenging PvE = fun. The other 95% of PvE = boring.
How difficult would you like your PvE?
Alleji
Zinger314
I'd love a Realm of Torment difficulty...except without the prejudicial enviromental effects.
ArenaNet's last hope is the Hard Mode...
ArenaNet's last hope is the Hard Mode...
Pynne
Personally I can't stand the more difficult areas. I play video games to escape the challenges of real life. After a hard day at work, then spending some time with the wife and kid, and helping to maintain the household, I get a few hours in the middle of the night to kill stuff. The last thing I want is that stuff to kill me first.
I prefer to do brainless easy tasks. If I can sit staring slack-jawed and drooling at the screen, then I'm happy. Every game I play that has a difficulty adjustment slider of some sort on it, is usually on the easiest setting.
I do get a nice sense of accomplishment from completing a difficult task, and I understand why so many love the tough stuff, but for the most part easy is what does it for me.
I prefer to do brainless easy tasks. If I can sit staring slack-jawed and drooling at the screen, then I'm happy. Every game I play that has a difficulty adjustment slider of some sort on it, is usually on the easiest setting.
I do get a nice sense of accomplishment from completing a difficult task, and I understand why so many love the tough stuff, but for the most part easy is what does it for me.
Phaern Majes
I think Hard Mode will help appease both sides. It will leave things to be easy for those who like it easy, and for those who want more of a challenge can partake in the Hard Mode.
tomcruisejr
So difficult that even afking in PvE outpost will require uber skills.
Warmaster Patton
Quote:
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Originally Posted by tomcruisejr
So difficult that even afking in PvE outpost will require uber skills.
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Seriously though, I like Real of Torment sometimes, sometimes I just like kikcin the cap out of some beats on the newbie island/ascalon. It all depends on my mood. After a rough day, I like easy things, after an easy, fun day, I like harder things.
Fender
I'd like something in between the c-space easiness* of nearly all of PvE and the ridiculous monster only skills and environmental effects of the elite missions (and RoT to a lesser extent). Those encourage cookie cutter builds. Unfortunately, there is no in between. Everything in NF is SUPER easy up until RoT. Then it gets a little difficult, but still quite possible. Go back and do chapter 1 missions now. THK w/ bonus is boringly easy. Even "hard" Factions missions are easy now w/ NF skills. You can masters every mission quite easily w/ heroes, except maybe killing Shiro.
For hard mode I'd like to see all mobs have boss like buffs: half casting times, half recharges, double energy pips, half condition lengths, half hex lengths, +2 to +4 health regen, better AI, better skill bars and a slight boost to their levels. Throw in all the god's blessings for good measure. Buff the monsters, but not with silly monster only skills. Don't cripple the players through environmental effects.
* Hit c, hit space, go get a drink and your heroes/henchies have killed everything by the time you get back.
For hard mode I'd like to see all mobs have boss like buffs: half casting times, half recharges, double energy pips, half condition lengths, half hex lengths, +2 to +4 health regen, better AI, better skill bars and a slight boost to their levels. Throw in all the god's blessings for good measure. Buff the monsters, but not with silly monster only skills. Don't cripple the players through environmental effects.
* Hit c, hit space, go get a drink and your heroes/henchies have killed everything by the time you get back.
darktyco
I agree, I would like PvE difficulty to be around the Realm of Torment level minus the environmental effects. The effects are just frustrating.
The idea of having AI with efficient skill bars sounds interesting too, although I wouldn't like having each and every PvE battle take as long as a RA match. Could be avoided by having only certain groups of monsters have the upgraded skillbars (i.e. only humanoid groups or just harder groups mixed in with all the trash groups.)
The idea of having AI with efficient skill bars sounds interesting too, although I wouldn't like having each and every PvE battle take as long as a RA match. Could be avoided by having only certain groups of monsters have the upgraded skillbars (i.e. only humanoid groups or just harder groups mixed in with all the trash groups.)
Rhedd
I bet I officially fall into the "easy" crowd.
The fact is, I find nothing fun at all about having to do something (anything) over and over and over. Therefore, my PERFECT game is one that is challenging enough to make you feel a sense of accomplishment when you succeed, but in which you never fail.
Since player skill levels vary so dramatically, and nowhere more than in this game, this ideal is simply impossible for a developer to achieve.
Still, that's what I want. ^_^
The fact is, I find nothing fun at all about having to do something (anything) over and over and over. Therefore, my PERFECT game is one that is challenging enough to make you feel a sense of accomplishment when you succeed, but in which you never fail.
Since player skill levels vary so dramatically, and nowhere more than in this game, this ideal is simply impossible for a developer to achieve.
Still, that's what I want. ^_^
XvArchonvX
I think most people miss the point when they start branding PvE as 'easy'. Basically, PvE is about the journey, PvP is about the struggle. While it's definately good to have parts of PvE that are hard (especially later on in the game), diversity in experience as well as an immersible environment is the most important aspect to an enjoyable experience imo.
Dougal Kronik
I think the difficulty tiered system Anet is adopting with Hard Mode is correct way to go.
Once you have completed the game through the normal storyline and difficulty, you can have the choice to try it again in a more difficult setting.
Increase in difficulty by randomly generating mob configurations with the monsters having full skill bars and secondary professions. Not just adding levels and monster only skills.
Once you have completed the game through the normal storyline and difficulty, you can have the choice to try it again in a more difficult setting.
Increase in difficulty by randomly generating mob configurations with the monsters having full skill bars and secondary professions. Not just adding levels and monster only skills.
Avarfang
Well i've been playing gw for around 3 months(nf), and found the missions and quests interesting and challenging at first, but it got more and more boring...
the hardest mission for me was rilohn refuge
the reason being, i had no knowledge of available skills whatsoever, and even if i knew about them(still don't know many 
), you can't get most of them until you get to RoT... 
the mission i liked was madness gate(for being hard and actually making me get new skills
) but after that it was ridiculously easy 
I was very dissapointed with the last mission.... did masters in first try, without any real preparation...
... boring... and i did it with henchies and heros(my heros haven't been modified at all, koss had 7-12 sword or sth like that most of the storyline )
I can see why this chapter is very easy for "pros" and almost impossible for people new to game... i learned about the skills through wiki and guru, while i could've easily learned about them ingame. I think anet should make the learning curve for new players more gradual(i read it is so in prophecies?) while making enemies, esp. bosses more versatile(more skills, not so much overpowered monster skills)
I hope the "hard mode" will be done right(although can't really tell now what that would be
) and bring some more fun 
I think i wrote enough for now...
the hardest mission for me was rilohn refuge
the reason being, i had no knowledge of available skills whatsoever, and even if i knew about them(still don't know many the mission i liked was madness gate(for being hard and actually making me get new skills
) but after that it was ridiculously easy I was very dissapointed with the last mission.... did masters in first try, without any real preparation...
... boring... and i did it with henchies and heros(my heros haven't been modified at all, koss had 7-12 sword or sth like that most of the storyline I can see why this chapter is very easy for "pros" and almost impossible for people new to game... i learned about the skills through wiki and guru, while i could've easily learned about them ingame. I think anet should make the learning curve for new players more gradual(i read it is so in prophecies?) while making enemies, esp. bosses more versatile(more skills, not so much overpowered monster skills)
I hope the "hard mode" will be done right(although can't really tell now what that would be
) and bring some more fun I think i wrote enough for now...
Chuba
One aspect that makes the game harder to some is the limited skill selection when starting a new account/new profession that came with the new expansion, and also the lack of skillpoints and gold to even buy the skills at start. I myself think that the RoT difficulty level is the absolute maximum for me to continue enjoying the game... Of course we'll be doing the Hard mode as a guild event, but I wouldn't want the standard game to be that hard. The DoA "difficulty" is just too extreme for a casual gamer like me.
Skuld
I like it easy, because I am lazy and like to semi-afk the campaigns.
FoxBat
I don't like when PvE gets hard enough that it becomes "slow."
The usual grind of carfully aggro one mob, get them to pile on the tank, nuke them all standing close together etc. just bores me to tears, whether I'm playing the tank, monk, or nuker. In areas like FoW, UW, Deep this kind of playstyle is prevalent even though it's unnecessary. DoA is the one area where you really do have to play like this.
By comparison, I did monk for a massive B/P alliance team once in Urgoz, and that was fun. There were no tanks, so aggro piled on pretty fast to the pets/minions, who themselves sometimes aggroed things. This mitigated a lot of damage, but people were still dropping fast under loose thorn wolves and as a monk I had to stay alert. Especially thrilling was when our other monk dropped and I had to keep everyone up together with a defensive spirit spammer vs urgoz.
But the standard "iron wall" build from The Deep to take care of the oni, and pulling to circumvent environmental effects, I find pretty dull. Unnecessary too when you could just have a team of paragons blitz the area. Even though it's currently not the most efficient way to do most areas, people still like it mostly because a) kiting is rare and b) good monks are rarer. The melee AI needs something like actual positional awareness to avoid getting stuck at chokepoints and such (or, just build new maps so they don't have chokepoints.)
Also, pulling. It's unnecessarily slow. I would rather have mob groups be more carefully designed. If you want the party to face 12+ mobs at once, put them all into one group. If you would rather them pick off 6 at a time, stick those two far enough away that I don't risk aggroing two groups at once. Reduce the size of patrol paths as well while you're at it, so I don't have to sit around waiting to engage. Also teach mobs to actually kite instead of simply running away, so A) healers are still around to heal and B) they don't drag you into another mob group.
The usual grind of carfully aggro one mob, get them to pile on the tank, nuke them all standing close together etc. just bores me to tears, whether I'm playing the tank, monk, or nuker. In areas like FoW, UW, Deep this kind of playstyle is prevalent even though it's unnecessary. DoA is the one area where you really do have to play like this.
By comparison, I did monk for a massive B/P alliance team once in Urgoz, and that was fun. There were no tanks, so aggro piled on pretty fast to the pets/minions, who themselves sometimes aggroed things. This mitigated a lot of damage, but people were still dropping fast under loose thorn wolves and as a monk I had to stay alert. Especially thrilling was when our other monk dropped and I had to keep everyone up together with a defensive spirit spammer vs urgoz.
But the standard "iron wall" build from The Deep to take care of the oni, and pulling to circumvent environmental effects, I find pretty dull. Unnecessary too when you could just have a team of paragons blitz the area. Even though it's currently not the most efficient way to do most areas, people still like it mostly because a) kiting is rare and b) good monks are rarer. The melee AI needs something like actual positional awareness to avoid getting stuck at chokepoints and such (or, just build new maps so they don't have chokepoints.)
Also, pulling. It's unnecessarily slow. I would rather have mob groups be more carefully designed. If you want the party to face 12+ mobs at once, put them all into one group. If you would rather them pick off 6 at a time, stick those two far enough away that I don't risk aggroing two groups at once. Reduce the size of patrol paths as well while you're at it, so I don't have to sit around waiting to engage. Also teach mobs to actually kite instead of simply running away, so A) healers are still around to heal and B) they don't drag you into another mob group.
Rakeman
I want it hard enough so that it presents a challenge and you have to think, but easy enough so that you don't get discouraged from continuing.
icedragon981
Honestly I'd love more areas such as the Realm of Torment but without the environmental effects. Even though it's easily hero/henchable to me, I like the challenge it provides compared to most other PvE areas. But I feel that DoA was a bit too much. DoA styles should stay as challenging PvE areas, don't get me wrong, but I wouldn't exactly want the entire game to be scaled to DoA difficulty.
Seef II
Realm of Torment without the environmental effects would be about the right level. (See Nightfallen Garden.)
Hard enough to separate the boys from the men, but not hair-pullingly so.
Hard enough to separate the boys from the men, but not hair-pullingly so.
The Ernada
I'd like to have PVE with more challenging monsters but with less of them rather than the way GW is set up where you're fighting swarm after swarm of easy monsters. That way it requires some thinking and some fun rather than mindlessly grinding through areas. Quality over quantity.
But unfortunately, it seems that the mindset of too many PVE players is being able to mindlessly click buttons to kill a dozen monsters at once.
But unfortunately, it seems that the mindset of too many PVE players is being able to mindlessly click buttons to kill a dozen monsters at once.
Bryant Again
I'd like it to be difficult to the point where I need to come up with a different build for each area.
But, to be actually fun while difficult, I'd want different AI. I don't want to have to have a normal DoAish party with a tank, bonders, nukers, etc. I would just want a good and skilled team to go against smart and harder AI and skillbars.
This forum is only a very tiny fraction of the community, however. I wouldn't judge Guild Wars players' skill level based upon these forums.
But, to be actually fun while difficult, I'd want different AI. I don't want to have to have a normal DoAish party with a tank, bonders, nukers, etc. I would just want a good and skilled team to go against smart and harder AI and skillbars.
This forum is only a very tiny fraction of the community, however. I wouldn't judge Guild Wars players' skill level based upon these forums.
Andisa Kalorn
I think that creating a hard mode is the way to go. I like Nightfall the way it is now. I can get through the game without having to rely on other people, but RoT is difficult enough that I adjust my and my heros' builds. Sometimes aggro goes horribly wrong and I get down to 60dp. 
But I can still complete the quests and missions. That's what I like about this game, and I think a lot of the more "casual" players like it too. You don't have to be some uber leet player to finish the game.
That said, it would be good for there to be more difficult content for those players that want the challenge. These would be things that couldn't be henched. Perhaps not DoA-style, but definitely more difficult than even RoT. I think hard mode could provide that, without giving casual players the frustration of never being able to finish.
But I can still complete the quests and missions. That's what I like about this game, and I think a lot of the more "casual" players like it too. You don't have to be some uber leet player to finish the game.That said, it would be good for there to be more difficult content for those players that want the challenge. These would be things that couldn't be henched. Perhaps not DoA-style, but definitely more difficult than even RoT. I think hard mode could provide that, without giving casual players the frustration of never being able to finish.
Yunas Ele
What about if they made pve sooooo easy that you could play a mesmer and spam shame on offensive casters, and guilt on defensive casters? That way t/c might stand a chance at beating pve~
Tempy
I think the OPTION to do Hard Mode is the way to go. Alot of people are casual gamers and only get a certain amount of time to play, or play to get away from stress. Forcing them into a harder game would in the end make GW unenjoyable for them.
Vinraith
I like Factions level of difficulty, it's challenging to about the level I'd want. I have no problem with an optional hard mode that's even harder than that.
Kool Pajamas
The difficulty in the game should be solving problems not how much damage you can do or prevent which is how the game is now.
wilebill
DoA, to me, is just way too much like work, and hard work at that!
RoT seems to me about right for casual gamers looking for some diversion with a bit of challenge to go with it.
But often I don't have time to do much more than run out into a Kurzick or Luxon map and spend a few minutes blasting stuff for fun.
Hard mode? Sure, why not if it makes everyone happy? But I'll probably never use it.
RoT seems to me about right for casual gamers looking for some diversion with a bit of challenge to go with it.
But often I don't have time to do much more than run out into a Kurzick or Luxon map and spend a few minutes blasting stuff for fun.
Hard mode? Sure, why not if it makes everyone happy? But I'll probably never use it.
cthulhu reborn
Yeah, what can I say? DoA is too much of a pain in the rear end. Great for those who get a kick out of it, but if that is the level of difficulty I would have to play a campaign in it would be a chore...not what I want from a game.
I just feel it's nice to be able to master area's and become good at it so that it becomes easy for yourself. Part of PvE is story line and discovering area's...you know, enjoying it. And I like a good fight for sure, which I expect to find in the later area's of the story.
Hard mode is a good idea to keep those busy who don't like the current difficulty levels. Personally I am not looking for it cause it will be a chore again, but that's why options are good.
I just wish I could get the ritu hero somewhere else than DoA. I just stop liking PvE when you cannot do it with a group of all character classes anymore. DoA is one warrior, 3 monks, 3 ele's and a Necro/Ranger. The idea that only a team build like that does it means you can forget about getting a ritu hero if you have an assassin, mesmer, paragon, dervish, ritu or ranger...that's where I think it goes wrong. It's like racism except people are forced to apply it...
So for PvE's sake let's keep it interesting for all players and let the hardcore stuff be an option for those who want it.
I just feel it's nice to be able to master area's and become good at it so that it becomes easy for yourself. Part of PvE is story line and discovering area's...you know, enjoying it. And I like a good fight for sure, which I expect to find in the later area's of the story.
Hard mode is a good idea to keep those busy who don't like the current difficulty levels. Personally I am not looking for it cause it will be a chore again, but that's why options are good.
I just wish I could get the ritu hero somewhere else than DoA. I just stop liking PvE when you cannot do it with a group of all character classes anymore. DoA is one warrior, 3 monks, 3 ele's and a Necro/Ranger. The idea that only a team build like that does it means you can forget about getting a ritu hero if you have an assassin, mesmer, paragon, dervish, ritu or ranger...that's where I think it goes wrong. It's like racism except people are forced to apply it...
So for PvE's sake let's keep it interesting for all players and let the hardcore stuff be an option for those who want it.
Bryant Again
I think that hard mode is going to be great if they don't make it the same level of difficulty and time sink as DoA. Otherwise, I do not think people would set aside their time for such an endeavor.
allience
i would like my pvE EASIER! i find only frustration in areas like DOA and i don't see why it whould be so hard and time consuming. if ppl are looking for something challenging that requires so much skill though and communication, just go PVP. i don't see why pve should be so difficult. i don't feel better by beating some insane AI with crazy interrupt reflexes. i like to have a good time in pve and hopefully find some loot i can use.
i think the difficulty lvl in prophecies and factions was ok but they totally over did it in nightfall. it's not fun anymore, i just feel like kormir's henchie instead of the "hero" of the story. to make things worse, i got nothing useful just by playing the game. i guess guild wars is a farming game after all too...
i think the difficulty lvl in prophecies and factions was ok but they totally over did it in nightfall. it's not fun anymore, i just feel like kormir's henchie instead of the "hero" of the story. to make things worse, i got nothing useful just by playing the game. i guess guild wars is a farming game after all too...
ValaOfTheFens
I like medium difficulty, with the option of putting it on hard later on. My beef with PvE is that we don't have many missions that challenge us mentally. I like puzzles, codes, and mazes and wish there were more of them in GW. Today I got to the Dragon's Lair and so I opened up GuildWiki to read about the mission. GuildWiki's description made the mission sound much more interesting than it was. I beat it on the first try with heroes and henchies, which I'd planned to use only as my exploratory party. The jungle missions were harder. *lol* Those were the days. Being lost in The Wilds for 2 hours before getting mad and mapping out. I'm wondering what they're going to do to the Ruins of Surmia in Hard Mode. People seem to universally hate that mission.
The jungle missions were harder. *lol* Those were the days. Being lost in The Wilds for 2 hours before getting mad and mapping out. I'm wondering what they're going to do to the Ruins of Surmia in Hard Mode. People seem to universally hate that mission.
Alias_X
I would like it if the game was even easier and quicker than Factions. This way one could level up quickly and get to all the areas quickly, and have time to concentrate on distractions.
Distractions = titles, farming, 1337 l00t, etc.
Distractions = titles, farming, 1337 l00t, etc.
cosyfiep
hm, I like the level of difficulty in nf---EXCEPT the size of the mobs and the extra-long agro range....a few less in the mobs and I would be a happy clam (or mouse as you can see my avatar).
Terra Xin
I don't care for difficulty much, I can get past that... eventually. I just want PvE to be more... exciting and diverse. I want more different things to do than kill stuff!!
Malice Black
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Alleji
Well, you know, at least I have to look at what my target is before pressing the button and once in several games I press the wrong one... while you can just hit tab, savannah heat, tab, searing heat and it doesn't really matter. Skillz.
I guess that's a step up from C, space. Keep going. |
I wouldn't mind DoA type difficulty but lets face it that will never happen...people would quit in their thousands. FoW/UW type difficulty would be ok even for the stupidest of PvE players.
upier
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Skuld
I like it easy, because I am lazy and like to semi-afk the campaigns.
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Deleet
I think, an adjustable difficulty is the best solution, while also having creeps that automatically follow your level, allowing low-end areas to be replayed.
Before you enter an area, you select difficulty, and everyone is happy.
Before you enter an area, you select difficulty, and everyone is happy.
mqstout
My favorite difficulty is probably that of of the Ring of Fire. Faction's end game difficulty got way over the top (especially in requiring certain skills or gimicks to complete). I'm not at the end game of Nightfall yet, but I already see it getting even harder than Factions .
PS: I'm glad they've cut down on mission -length- since Prophecies though. 1+ hours for one mission is too much.
.PS: I'm glad they've cut down on mission -length- since Prophecies though. 1+ hours for one mission is too much.
Blame the Monks
I want the game to be difficult, but difficult in the right way. Rather than retarded damage + cheap effects (doa), I would prefer realistic teams that play reasonably intelligently (basically take the heros from pvp, give them reasonable bars, make them level 20, and give me a fair fight.
Calen The Civl
Personally, I find the "difficulty" of RoT and DoA cheesy. Overpowering creatures that are inherently stupid while increasing numbers is not adding challenge in my view. It only leads to cookie cutter builds and excluding most classes from an area.
I would rather see all creatures except bosses be at most levels 20-22 but have excellently thought out skill bars and team cohesion. This should be done in a way that will not exclude any classes like the usual holy trinity and b/p groups. I do know that it is just Ai we are talking about, but more can and should be done on that front.
Basically my idea of difficulty requires players to think of diverse builds in order to get through an area. Preventing a cookie cutter group would be able to make it through the area is the goal.
In not so many words, I agree with Blame the Monks.
I would rather see all creatures except bosses be at most levels 20-22 but have excellently thought out skill bars and team cohesion. This should be done in a way that will not exclude any classes like the usual holy trinity and b/p groups. I do know that it is just Ai we are talking about, but more can and should be done on that front.
Basically my idea of difficulty requires players to think of diverse builds in order to get through an area. Preventing a cookie cutter group would be able to make it through the area is the goal.
In not so many words, I agree with Blame the Monks.
Cjlr
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Blame the Monks
I want the game to be difficult, but difficult in the right way. Rather than retarded damage + cheap effects (doa), I would prefer realistic teams that play reasonably intelligently (basically take the heros from pvp, give them reasonable bars, make them level 20, and give me a fair fight.
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Difficulty is one thing. Handicaps are another. Ask any strategy gamer: just because the AI 'cheats' (that is, has access to bonuses or options players can't access - that's usually what's meant by the term) doesn't make it fun. In fact, it just makes the same old gimmicks more effective and at the same time it often just gimps the crazy new ideas. Unless the crazy new idea is the new gimmick. But how often does that happen? Take Civilization. On the hardest difficulty levels AI civs have crazy insane bonuses. But people can still beat them because there are tricks that work every time. And then take Dark Avatar. Now there's a brilliant AI... It's adaptive, it's powerful, it's beatable (nobody wants to play Deep Blue every time...), and it's fun.
If I entered a new area and found that I had -6 health degeneration, KD every fifteen seconds, did half damage to enemies, and could only bring five skills, it would be a lot harder; but it wouldn't be much fun.
If, on the other hand, I entered a new area and found balanced AI groups, with fuller skillbars and better coordination... That would be a lot more fun.
Of course, it's a lot harder to program...