Which chapter to start, don't agree with GWG article

This article on Guru about which game to start with doesn't seem very objective.

There are some key points which I must disagree with.

Learning Curve.

Unless you have no concept on how to play an MMO/Adventure game, the learning curve is actually the steepest in prophecies. Why? Because your henchman are consistently below your average level. They are useless, and I can bet anyone who's played from prophecies will say that henchies were useless until factions came out.

The second steepest learning curve is Nightfall, because it forces you to play virtually all the classes at the same time. You have to learn what's good across all classes and micro manage skills for numerous toons.

The easiest learning curve is Factions. Your henchies are level 20 before you, and you get a full 8 person party very early in the game. In prophecies, you're already 60% into the game before you even see 8 people parties.

Multi-player experience

Prophecies is the worst multi-player experience. Because the missions are not like Factions and Nightfall where you MUST complete it in order to continue, the whole game has become a peddler/monger experience. You either try to do it yourself or you pay someone to run you to where you need to go (where all the high levels are hanging out and actually doing stuff together)

Factions and Nightfall, as stated above, force completion of missions, so there's always someone looking for a group. As stated in the article, since Nightfall is the newer game, most people are there, but Factions still has a crowd. The plus of Nightfall though, is that because heroes do exist, every mission is possible (and sometimes easier) to do solo than to find a group. Having that option available is always nice.

Skills and Professions

Prophecies, to me, has the best set of skills (e.g. proph skills are needed to use the reliable builds). But Factions and Nightfall allow 2 more classes to be chosen. Is that worth the extra money of the newer games? Choices are always nice.

Plus, once a person learns the game, they will also learn why other chapters should be bought/incorporated.

--------

In conclusion, I would recommend new players to start in Nightfall. They get more classes to choose from, they also get the option of not having to always rely on groups, and they gain an aspect of the game that really forces you to learn how to play all the classes (undeniably the best thing to do if you want to pvp).

I'd also like to say that I know people who started in prophecies and they have all given up on the game because it was 'so slow and boring'. The ones who started in factions and nightfall are all still playing. You have to assume that Anet fixed the problems from C1 to C2. And you know what they say, third time is a charm.

Thanks for reading =)

What you are describing is not learning curve. It's actually the opposite. Factions has the steepest learning curve because it moves you along the FASTEST. Ease of combat & stronger henchmen do not equal learning the game. In fact they can hinder it. Prophecies takes things the slowest allowing you to progress at a steady rate and take in different nuances, situations, types of enemies over time. Prophecies has the best learning curve because it teaches you, it doesn't just get you 20 then say "ok have fun".
Nightfall has the best on-screen function/control description, but the game doesn't have the paced progression of Prophecies.

I think its best to start with Prophecies and follow each chapter in order. If you start with chapter 3, then its kinda like starting to read a book starting on the last page, its more confusing. Like the post above states, Prophecies takes is slower and its a good place to start imo. You'll understand and grasp more of what chapter 2 & 3 are about by completing chapter 1.

I know its hard to jump into a game thats been evolving for the past 2 years, its a daunting task to say the least.

Have fun.

Hmm, ok, maybe "learning curve" is not what I meant. What I meant was time it takes to learn useful game skills.

To elaborate, spending 15+ game hours at level 10 isn't going to teach you want you need to be a good player at level 20.

What's the old adage, you can't learn to ride a bike without falling off a couple times?

The newer chapters facilitate this learning better than prophecies. You get to this point in prophecies where you realized everything you learned up until that point is useless for the rest of the game (in fact, a lot of 'slow learning curve' games fall into this plight).

So, even though I may have used the wrong terminology, I believe my meaning still points that prophecies isn't the game you should start people on. Unless, of course, you're introducing the game to a non-gamer.

I disagree. The point of the three games is that they are standalone. The storylines hardly intertwine except for some non-critical tidbits that are callbacks/throwbacks to veteran gamers who have played the older campaigns. If it were not for this standalone playability, I would be inclined to agree, but I think Anet's purpose for making it standalone is to make each game it's own experience, with interchangeability as a bonus to dedicated fans.

a few things:

you have the learning curve thing a little backwards. faster doesnt mean better. the missions are very easy in the beginning of prophecies (first missions can be solo'd without any henches), with their difficulty slowly progressing as you move through the game. this allows the player to move at a slower pace, taking time to learn how best to utilize the class they have selected. in factions, it jumps you to lvl 20, and drops you right into the thick of things. it be like coming out of pre already at lvl 20, and dropping you right into the southern shiverpeaks. you go from 0 to 60 rather fast, and if you dont yet know what you are doing (and most first time players dont), you may be stopped dead in your tracks. better for first time players to take it slow and steady.

as for the runners, who says you have to get run? thats an issue with the player themselves, not the chapter. if you want to truly experience the game, dont buy a runner. no one is forcing you.

as for the henchies, i never had a problem with them through prophecies. until Aurora Glade, never ran with a PUG. and didnt run with one again until the end of the southern shiverpeaks. plus the henchies are about at the level you should be able to complete the mission at. if you cant clear the mission with the henchies available, its not the henchies fault. and why does it matter that you dont get a 8 person party until you are through most of the game? as the party gets larger, the missions get harder. mission with only 4 ppl are much easier than those with 6 or 8. its all balanced.

as for skills, i think if you ever plan to pvp, you are gonna want to have prophecies. just too many strong and staple skills you would be missing out on. not say you have to go with prophecies first, just that you are gonna have to get it anyway. i agree that the place to start is nightfall, but only because its the newer version, and has the largest community of actively playing people.

*edit*
in regards to your last post, which i didnt read before i posted this. yes to an extent, this is true. for a person that is very experienced with other MMO/RPG-esque games, then yes, prophecies does has some redundant qualities. but what about those that are new to the genre? plus i dont think you have to forget everything you learned once you reach the end. most new player simply find something that works and never change it (explaining many of the mending wammos). eventually you should learn to use the better skills that are becoming available to you. unfortunately because pve is at its roots very simple, many never bother to adapt, and keep these bad tendencies. in this case, prophecies can be bad. but, again, that is more of a player based issue rather than a chapter based one (the mentality, "its worked so far, why change?).

Just one comment: Prophecies could be completed using hench-only parties before Factions was ever released, so while the Prophecies henchies may be ineffective compared to later henchies and heroes, I wouldn't call them "useless." Besides, learning to do THK with a pure-hench group and a longbow is about the best lesson in PvE mob aggro-control you can get in GW. And IMHO, aggro-control is about the most important skill you can have in PvE.

I agree with some of your points, but Factions is a lot "harder" than Proph, while Nightfall does end up a little "harder" than that, although it takes longer to get into the high-end content in Nightfall.

Honestly, I think Tyria is the best place to play as a new player simply because you have many many many skill quests that you can do in order to obtain skills instead of buying them, which as we all know, first timers dont have the money.

Don't forget, Tyria also has the most stages of armor, which forces you to buy more sets before you have access to a max level armor set.

Money is also much easier to get in nightfall. I have no basis for saying this, just that I never really dipped into stash money with my new NF char.

fnuh, thats bull... in both factions and nightfall you get gold aswell as skill points instead of skills... I fully kitted out my characters with out delving into my storage cash

Undeniably the best thing to do if want to pvp? How does playing solo with heroes even come remotely close to teaching you how to work as a team with a group of real people? Also like the other poster stated, you need the core skills from prophecies to adequately compete in PvP. Many of the important elites can only be found in Prophecies. Come to think of it, if your just wanting to pvp, then why would you have to even pick a chapter? Just do RA, TA, HOH and get faction to unlock everything you need. What chapter you start in really has nothing to do with pvp unless your planning on grooming a pve character to compete in pvp later on.

There ARE skill quests in Factions. The profession insignia and basic profession quests,if anything, give you better skills than the quests in Prophecies.

the best chapter to start out in is prophecies in my opinion. it advances you slowly through the campaign, and leaves you a lot more time to learn than the later chapters do. there is a lot more <lv20 content in prophecies than any of the other campaigns.
every quest you do in factions gives you loads of experience, if you compare them to a similar (in difficulty) quest in prophecies you don't get near the same amount of experience/money. but you still learn the same in the 2 cases.

I think prophecies is the best game of the 3 if you only get one. it was made as a standalone game, where the 2 others where made as a add-on game with being a standalone in the back of the head.

Factions and Nightfall gets a lot harder a lot faster than prophecies does. i think that might work for people who just like to move along fast or for people who just have a tendency to learn faster than others, but generally i think taking it slow is the best thing if you are trying to learn something, rushing it often leads to information either being overlooked, or simply forgotten, even if you might end up needing it later in the game.

and you really should edit your first post. it has been mentioned in every second reply. you got your idea of learning curve completely backwards. the way you have it now is just misleading

wsmcasey, i think the OP was referring to starting for the very first time, not just rolling a new character. as in, going out and buying a chapter, not having all three already. so in this case, the chapter you have will affect your ability to pvp well.

to the OP, yes, tyria has more tiers of armor, but no one makes you buy them. its a matter of player preference again, not the chapter. i only bought at ascalon, denravi, amnoon, then droks. and those are the same armor levels as the ones available to a factions char.

i do agree that money is a bit harder to come by early in prophecies, but a little farming never hurt anyone .

Then its chapter 1 hands down for me, no further questions. The core skills from Prophecies are necessary for PvP.

You don't have to buy new armor every time it is available. People who splurg will of course have no money.


I ascended my first character with presearing collectors armor.

I remember first time I played through Prophecies I had to upgrade my armor in Amnoon even though I didn't wanna waste money on it, just because my doppleganger was hitting me for way more damage than I hit him for. Apparently the so-called doppleganger does not have the same armor as you if you have early-game armor - rather he has way more instead.

Hence I agree that Prophecies forces you to waste money on useless non-max armor.

the biggest difference between prophecies and the new factions and nightfall is the way the game plays out. in factions, the story doesnt really get rolling until your reach lvl 20 and have max armor available. newbie island builds up your battle against the afflicted, which doesnt hit its stride until your reach the mainland, and have max armor available. in essence, all of newbie island is essentially pre searing ascalon, as far as story line goes. its all build up to that point.

so factions (and to an extent, nightfall, although i think they did a better job than they did with factions in this regard) gets rolling at lvl 20 with max armor available. this is seen by the fact that bulk of the missions in factions and nightfall happen after you have already reached lvl 20, have max armor available, and are ascended. and prophecies gets rolling somewhere around lvl 5-8 coming out of pre with only low lvl armor available. the way the story plays out is conducive to slowly building your character up over a long period of time, periodically upgrading your skills, weapons, and armors as you go. you dont usually hit lvl 20 until you are about 70% through the game.

its just how the story plays out in prophecies. they made the change to the faction/nightfall style to appease the returning player who wanted to go through the story with their old tyrian characters. i doubt many ppl would have wanted to take their lvl 20 chars through 70% of factions before they reach a point that would actually be of a challenge.

You are using the right terminology, but seeing the exact opposite of what is happening. My first 30 "useless" hours were VERY important. I made mistakes and wasted time: I learned. You are exactly right; you can't learn to ride a bike without falling off a couple times. But Factions shoves you forward so quickly you are in a level 20 area before acctualy know how to fight well. It gives you a false sense of security. Proph gives you room to play, room to fall down and move forward so you really understand what is going on.

Again, you are pointing out one thing and saying the opposite. More stages means a more gradual progression. You stay on a more level playing field with the monsters you fight. You get a grasp of things before it moves on.

My advice would to play Prophecies -> Nightfall -> Factions.

They are all good, but skills from Proph are highly desired across all chapters. Then, get your heroes in Nightfall. Finally, complete Factions.

Storywise, there are a few references back to Factions in Nightfall, but nothing that can't be overcome.

OK, you want to talk about bull... now thats bull. You can get ALMOST every skill in tyria for your character through a quest. In Nightfall and Factions you only get the preliminary skills.

Thanks for your replies and feedback guys. I actually am totally open to what all of you have to say and it is helping me to understand the point of view of people who started the game when there was only prophecies (i started about 1 month before nightfall myself).

Please continue to post, I will be sitting back and enjoying the conversation. =)

no prob, glad to have discussions that dont break down into flame wars.

i think you will get a lot of pro-prophecies votes from the older players (not age, but game play). those that started in prophecies usually see factions as far too fast, and to some extent, rather short (13 canthan missions vs 25 prophecies). while players that started in factions see prophecies as far too slow (over two thirds through before you even reach lvl 20). not that either side is wrong, it just shows that each have different view points based on their in game experiences.

another thing to consider is the difficulty of missions, from the point of view of a first time player. the hardest missions in prophecies (THK, fire island) now seem rather tame in comparison to factions exploding afflicted fests, and wild effects in nightfalls last mission or mobs in DoA. imagine the reaction of a first time player, having already gone through factions and nightfall, heading over to THK. its a walk in the park by comparison (THK was once a mission my old guild used as a litmus test before they'd send new players an invite). i think this gives factions/nightfall character less reason to get involved in the world of tyria. no challenge usually means no fun. the only reason to play would be to cap elites, and while thats a very good thing, not sure if its worth all of my time.

Prophecies, without doubt, playing it slowly and patiently, completing ALL quests, learning the game.

Then, when you feel you know the game, buy both Factions and Nightfall and make whatever you want.

I think that players that have started in Prophecies tend to have a better idea of how to play, especially if they haven't been run through portions of it. If you do every primary and secondary quest on the way through, you should gain nearly 80 skills free. At each stage of gaining these skills you are also given a chance to try them out.

The other 2 chapters are not so good for new players because most of your skills have to be purchased. Let's face it, someone that is new to the game is not going to have a clue as to what skills they are going to need.



No you are not forced to buy armour. Collector armour in the Crystal Desert has the same al as Drokna armour. That doesn't cost you anything apart from a bit of time to hunt for the items needed. In fact you earn more cash by doing this from all the other drops along the way. There are other places as well where collector armour has higher al than purchased armour of the area (maguuma etc). By doing this you will also have more than enough cash to afford your Drokna armour when you get there.

If the player has the means to purchase all 3 campaigns, but not all at once; I would still recommend that they start at the beginning with Prophecies.

Prophecies is simply the best written story line and has the best pacing of the three campaigns. Additionally, it is the most challenging and encourages more grouping than the other campaigns. If for some reason you don't like grouping, obviously Nightfall is the best bet. But, even in Nightfall, solo play with Heroes/Henchies may be too difficult.

For the solo player/non grouper, Heroes + Nightfall Campaign seems to be the best bet.

I would highly recommend starting on Prophecies. As mentioned above, it has the best storyline and pacing IMHO, and it allows you to grow and develop your tactics throughout the campaign -- as you work toward lvl 20 and get new skills from quest rewards.

The other 2 campaigns don't allow you that development -- basically dropping you off on the mainland at lvl 20 and with a small sampling of skills. Nightfall isn't quite as bad as Factions in that regard, as you don't get to lvl 20 quite as fast, and with heros + hero skill points to help you learn skills.

I've always believed, and continue to do so, that Prophecies should be required before adding any other campaign to it, instead of having the other "add-on" campaigns being on the same stand-alone level. As ANet itself decribes it, Prophecies has the "core" professions and "core" skills, and as it is the only campaign where you actually play to lvl 20 as you progress through it instead of starting there (though I understand why the other campaigns do this -- as the previous chapter's playerbase is already at lvl 20 coming into it), it only makes sense IMO that players should start there.

Get Nightfall first then heroway both Prophecies and Factions.

Factions is a trial-by-fire ordeal... one second you're on a nice happy green island, a few hours later you're being mobbed by afflicted that wtfpwn your new character. Brand new people can't use henchies well.... nor do they know which they should take, or how to manage them. The gentle learning curve of prophecies was nice, though a tad slow for my liking. Generally I start a character off in factions so they get to level 20 at warpspeed, then go play the other campaigns because factions sucks for everything but fast leveling

Sounds about right. I'll add this - if you start in Prophecies, stay in pre-sear until at least level 7. If you don't, you'll miss a lot of what pre-sear has to offer. Why skip part of the game?

Besides, in pre-sear you'll never hear nonsense like "running to sardelac sanitarium for 500g. pay half before we leave".

I'd say Nightfall is the game to start with. The Istan quests and missions aren't hard and most of them aren't annoying. You get a reasonable amount of skills and you get your own customizable NPCs. Dunkuro alone is worth his weight in gold. The people who complain about the grind to get Sunspear ranks are the ones who don't get the bounty every time they enter a new area. If you do that then it won't be an issue. I was halfway to Sunspear General(from Commander) when I left Istan and so it was easy to attain while setting up Sunspear Sanctuary. Nightfall has a nice pace that lets you enjoy the PvE experience without being rushed through or stifled at every step. You can capture elites fairly easily and max armor is affordable and easy to get. Nightfall's biggest challenge is probably getting the perfect weapon. *lol* Perfect inscriptions and weapon mods are hard to come by.

Prophecies is an excellent game. But the pace is punishing if you don't beat the missions and have to run everywhere. The usefulness of the skills given by the skill quest probably varies by profession. I got great Necro skills and terrible Mesmer skills. The quality of the missions is all over the place. Ruins of Surmia is probably one of the hardest missions for anyone under level 15(with a full party of actual players) and yet Dragon's Lair was easy enough for me to do it with just heroes and henchies(no 1337 builds or weapons on the heroes either). Prophecies offers a first class PvE experience, in terms of scope and storyline, and is best appreciated once you get your bearings. After playing through NF, I'd roll a new toon in Prophecies and start from the beginning.

Factions is really just one continuous high-level area. I bought Prophecies and Factions together and when I brought my primary character into Cantha is was totally unprepared for how hard it would be. You leave Lion's Arch, an area surround by foes in the teen's, to Kaineng, with level 20 foes everywhere. The mission structure is pretty cool but not made for a novice player's skill level. Also, you run into locked gates pretty quickly after leaving Kaineng. Factions probably has the best access to skills of all 3 campaigns though. Kaineng's skill trainer knows alot of important skills and there's a nice amount of elites within shouting distance of the city proper.

If you think about it, we all started off in Proh until Factions came out.

My personal opinion is if you are a seasoned vet and want to start a new character and LVL them up quickly then Factions is your best bet, it's what I do to get my characters to LVL 20 ASAP since I already know the game and know the build I want to achieve.

But if I we're just starting out I would go from NF, Proh, Factions.

I usually tell my friends to make a proph toon, enjoy exploring presearing as they learn the game....then get rushed to LA, pick up your heros, and explore at will. All three chapters at once if you prefer, picking up useful skills and such along the way. Once you get your heros and max armor, from there its just a matter of what you enjoy.

Prophecies has pre-searing. A great area to start out your character and get used to using skills and items before you get into multi player issues. No DP yet, no xunlai's, no armor crafters. Just you and your character discovering locations and skill use.

To me it's still the most fun area I've played in as an RPG fan. I missed that in the other continents. You have lower level area's but it's not really a beginners area...I still think it's too bad that Kamadan is such a big trade town now and the people who need help with starter quests get snowed under in the WTB/WTS chaos...it's almost like beginning characters have no place being there...very odd.

The only problems I've encountered with new players that started in Nightfall first is that they seem to be too reliant on using heroes to play the game.

Its as if they dont know how to play without them. Thats the feeling I get anyway. I ran into a guy just the other night in Droknars that started in Nightfall first, he was asking me about farming builds and asked if I would party with him to help him out. I said sure, np. The first thing he does is load up the party menu with all his heroes and said, okay lets go!

I had to take time to explain to him that farming the Drok Trolls would be better without heroes, but he was having a difficult time grasping the concept of farming solo.

I run into new people like this more and more each day. Not just farming, but running missions and quests with other live people.

I was in a mission last night with my Elementalist in Nightfall helping a guy out, and he moved so fast from mob to mob that we hardly had a chance to breath. Fortunately I've worked out a good energy management build for my nuker and we made it thru okay, but I had to ask him to slow down on more than one occasion. This guy had a hard time with the concept that real people were playing with him and not heroes and henchies.

I dont know how to fix these problems, but hopefully Anet finds some solutions for chapter 4.

The best place to start a new char it all depends on Profession and what you want your char to look like.Those starting out a Monk say for the first time would best to start off in Tyria and for core classes I prefer Tyria.

QFT, I cannot tell you how many times I've posted this information around, hoping someone would absorb it. Hardly anyone believes me when I say you can get max armor before Drok's. *Sigh* thank you

Aaaanyway

I kinda feel like the ol’ geezer thread there was a while ago, entitled something like “these young whippersnappers don’t even know what ascension is!” (Too lazy to look it up for the link.)

I’ll always recommend Proph when possible. Reasons:

--Skills from quests
As a new player, I was always thrilled to get a new skill from a quest. I didn’t always know what I was going to use it for when I got it, but I sure was glad it was there when I needed it.

--Slow progression in strength of enemies, henches, etc
It makes sense. I kind of feel like I’m on autopilot nowadays, with heroes. I can go afk or fall asleep and they’ll finish any battle for me. Does that make me a better player now? Not at all. Sure am glad I could have the whole gamut of unlocked skills (from you guessed it, mostly Prophecies!) to actually make my heroes effective. And when you are level 8 and your henches are level 3 or level 6, you HAVE to learn to be cautious, work as a team, figure out tactics. Couldn't just sit back and leech off the uber heroes like you can nowadays.

--Endgames [SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER]
Shiro in G.o.M. is a quite a bit harder than he is in I.S.
Finish Factions, Ammy. Finish NF, Book. Finish Proph, hmmm… another talk with Glint. If you are a new-ish player, would you end up being disappointed overall? Wouldn’t you rather build up to the best endgame rewards, rather than get them right away?

And lastly
--My own bias
I believe in not reading the last chapter in a book before the first, that’s the way I did it, that’s the way it should be done! Heh jk.


Doesn’t everyone realize, Prophecies kept us happy/entertained for almost a full year before Factions came out? And NF wasn’t out a month before people started anticipating the next chapter!!

I agree that pre-sear has some "magic" not available anywhere, I am not sure why, but I think ArenaNet must analyze pre-sear for add that "magic" to a full campaign.

Also, in some way I agree new chapters must be expansions of Prophecies, not stand-alone games; That way EVERYONE start in pre-sear always (and this topic would not exist)

As an editor on that article I would like to make a few points:

It was written for new people in general not the experts. Basically we were taking into account those people who couldn't find their way out of a paper bag when they started playing (myself included - never played anything other that Final Fantasy type games on the playstation before this).
Anyone who reads the article and has been playing MMOs like WoW or EQ will know where to start out and what is best suited for them. My brother came from EQ and he prefers Prophecies - will everyone? No.

I started in presear and accidently left presear at lvl 3 with only half my skills -_- But I was still able to advance, you can't say the same for the other campaigns and their starting areas.
How many of you recall all the Sins that couldn't stay alive? They did not have the slow leveling playing field that would have given them time to learn to stay alive and control their skills and agroing. Some people made the mistake of thinking that their sin could tank with the armor of a squishy since it easily mowed through stuff on newb island... Then we get thrown to the market place and suddenly that sin is nothing more than a corpse for the MMs to feed off of.

I will not speak for NF because it did end appropriately in the middle of the two campaigns for its learning curve, but I cannot say the same for it's skills (not saying they are bad, just saying that in the pvp realm Prophecies skills are still higher on the must have list).

This article was not written with just our thoughts, but the thoughts of many (obviously not all).

For those of you who replay Factions do you do it because it's fun or because it's fast?
Those of you who replay NF do you do it because you want to get your characters through or because of the story line?
For those of you who find yourselves in presear after 8 chacters have gone through it over and over, why do you think that is?


<3 the discussion and views even if I don't agree.

Hi,

I'm a new player of GW, just got NF last week. Previously mostly played WoW.

So far I've taken my Mo/E to level 8. Still on the Island doing quests - have completed the Meet the General? quest. A few of the quests I'm running into seem a little tough and my group of two heroes and 1 henchie are going down from time to time. Guess I still need to learn how to manage the group effectively and/or need to level a little more before I take on some of the quests. What level should I be before advancing further through the main quests/missions and heading to the mainland? I have 9 skill points in my Monk, should I be using these yet to pick up new skills or holding on to them? If use them which skills do you suggest? Would Breeze of healing be of any use - I noticed a skills merchant had this available? (apologies if this should really be asked in the Monk forum area?).

With all of this in mind, I'm think about picking up Prophecies, adding it to my account and restarting a Monk there. Is it possible to do this - restart a new character in Prophecies? Or am I now stuck with starting out from Nightfall and only linking in to the other campaigns at a later point? I do want to play through all three campaigns, trying out a few different classes and also eventually to get into some PvP action.

Thanks for any advice you can offer.

Cheers,