How to make Mesmers more wanted in PvE

I like all my chars, have finished 3 campaigns with the 6 core classes, Cantha with rit+sin and Elona with derv, but if I have to say which class I enjoy to play more I would probably choose the mesmer.

It's challenging, but when it comes to the highest level mobs and bosses, those which can reap your party in a couple of spells, or heal themselves until all give up and ragequit, that's the moment in which mesmers shine above all other classes.
My best satisfaction in Elona was to shut down Shiro (MoI + SoM) allowing the rest of the party (with no human monks) to get master like a walk in the park, receiving the grats from players who had been there for 1 week and were thinking to leave the game.

That said, the only buff I would like to see is something in the recharge of spells, especially interrupts.

It has been said that rangers can interrupt better than mesmers and make damage. This is only partially true (it needs more timing and the right bow) and spells like Power Spike, although only working on spells, can do really significant damage.

The problem I see is in the long recharge of interrupting skills.

My suggestion is to reduce the recharge time, let's say by 50%, when you successfully interrupt, and leave the normal recharge time when you fail.
For instance, there could be an ispiration stance like "for XX seconds, whenever you use a skill that succesfully interrupts your target, that skill recharges in 50% of time".

No?
That's like saying that X religion is better than Z religion, because it has more believers.

Abaddon mission last night... two Paragons, a warrior, a ranger, an assassin and myself, a mesmer, with two hero monks.

Masters.

ANet doesn't need to change anything. It's peoples perceptions of what makes a winning team that needs to change.

Mesmers have one advantage that the interrupters from other classes don't have.
Mesmers have skills that can shut down the spell the moment it's cast.
That's 100% guaranteed interrupt, if you know what you are doing.
It's not that good on Meteor Shower, but on fast-casting spells (anything below 1 second) it's probably more efective than a ranger interrupt.


You have an Elite in Fast Casting that can help with that.

Isn't that the truth. Unfortunately, that'll probably never happen.

Not really. Your analogy is weak.

Most people who play games have some conception of the mechanics of those games and will play classes that most closely approach a given gameplay goal. Especially in a game with quick and easy character turnover and little to no roleplaying elements to otherwise affect your character choices, it doesn't make sense to continue playing a character that doesn't fit your desired playstyle(s).

People who practice a religion don't usually do so because of some self min-maxing proposition that being a Boddhisattva will give them better powers than being a Catholic Saint (or vice versa).

It's actually very easy to get masters with any Hero/Hench team, GuildWiki has a pretty good guide. Two days ago I did the mission in under 10 minutes (20 minutes is master) with my Mesmer and Hero/Hench. In fact, the Mesmer actually has one of the highest DPS against Abaddon. I just used the fact that Abaddon does not run from AoE and then just spammed Wastrels Worry (hex wears off instantly) and Chaos Storm for ridiculous amounts of armor ignoring DPS. Everybody knows that a Mesmer dominates the 1 on 1 matchup. The problem is 99% of PvE is 1 against a shitload of enemies.

Avarre made a good argument about how the effectiveness of characters scale with the number of enemies. Elementalists, Barrage rangers, MMs, and the conventional builds grow in strength when there are more enemies (a fireball may deal 100 damage against one enemy, but when there are two, it does 100 damage to each, totaling to 200 damage). A tank also has similar scaling. A warrior can tank 1 enemy or 5 enemies, he just has to run in first and he does his job of preventing his allies from getting hit. The Mesmer efficiency does not scale (if a Mesmer can only shut down 1 enemy, and there are two of them, then the mesmer can still only shut down one of them). Considering that 99% of PvE is about killing large mobs, it is far more effective to bring four searing flames elementalists, a MM, a tank, and two healers than to have a diversified group (such as one with a Mesmer doing shutdown on the enemy monk). Those elementalists will usually kill groups instantly after all the searing flames go off.

Of course a smart Mesmer is better than an incompetent elementalist or warrior. And stupid groups will often have alot of problems that a mesmer can fix. But any reasonably experienced group will know how to handle unusual situations (ex: The Kraken in Factions was a very difficult boss for many players when they first played that mission. A lot of teams ask for interrupters, but I just added Skull Crack to my tank and it became very easy, dazed is better than any mesmer interrupt. I also beat that mission with a Barrager w/ concussion shot on my ranger. Any of the holy trinity (nuker, tank, healer) can adapt to situations and handle them well, while still playing their role.

It's definitely possible to include Mesmers and even to do crazy builds. I can beat the game with 9 attributes in fire instead of 16, and still play a decent nuker. However, if I am looking for the easiest, and most efficient way to do it, I won't handicap myself. Unfortunately, Mesmers (and Assassins, Dervishes, Ritualists, and Paragons for the most part) cannot contribute much. Almost all their skills are designed for PvP exclusively and they lack skills that take advantage of the poor AI. Skills that scale with enemy numbers. Skills that all of the Holy Trinity have.

One of the things that make inquisitors in Everquest useful is that they synergize well with melee classes because they can buff attack speed and caster's intelligence. The inquisitor can't heal better than the other priests, their group dps buffing is what's make them over other priests when the group setup is a certain way.

I'm wondering if mesmers are given support abilities that help buff the group's casting speed, or even attack speed, that they'll be a lot more wanted in PVE. Are there any professions that buff groups attack and casting speeds?

How many <1 skills are dangerous enough that the casting of one can break your team? The only benefit of mistrust is the damage (quite a nice skill for that) - most mob packs have enough monsters and spells to not care about one interrupted skill. Not to mention Rangers can simply apply dazes and interrupt AoE.

You mean the perception of a winning team as one that wins? Completing PvE isn't a victory, anyone can do that. Completing it as fast as possible repeatably (if needed) is. As noblepaladin brought up, your reference is flawed anyway.

I finished Torc'qua with two mesmers and a ranger (1 ele in group total). It wasn't hard. However, the Mesmers were keyed to pseudo-ele setups, with glyphed/promised dom AoE. Even so, it took far longer than the teams that clear all four areas in succession would have needed for City, because damage was less efficient. If the shutdown effects and conditional damage hexes weren't co-ordinated properly, nothing even happened.

Aggressive Refrain on Paragons boosts attack speed, I believe.

It's on self only. It would be insane if you could target ally with this, as it's very very easy to maintain this IAS for a whole exploration zone with a couple chants/shouts.

No, no... I mean the perception that you have to have the generic W/E/Mo groups to win. Even the mission with Shiro and the Lich we went in as a random PuG taking whomever and still mastered it. Nearly any mix can succeed when well driven.

Regarding a mesmers DPS as numbers increase... that depends on the build. You should see what a mesmer with Hex Vortex and Shatter Hex does for damage over numbers. You'll see a helluva lot of -142s flying in the air.

It's pretty.

That's nice, but I have some caveats:
at dom 16, damage should be 126 each. Hex Eater Vortex is an elite late into NF. You need 2 conditions - a hexed ally, who must also be close to a bunch of foes (casters usually spread out anyway).

But it's situational again. You look good against hexes; encounter a warrior/ ranger group, and your elite is toast, as is your caster hate... What Avarre calls "the trinity" usually works unconditional.

There are indeed not that many skills that are < 1 and dangerous.
Mistrust is a decent spell, but I was also thinking about Shame.
It's usefull in (somewhat coordinated) PvE if you want to make sure the monk enemy will not heal the dieing target (but then, that would only give the enemy about 5 seconds extra life).

I was also thinking about the daze ranger, but that one has two conditions.
He/she must use an elite slot.
Or must interrupt a skill at 25 base energy (I think that's the cost of Conc. shot).
I know Daze > caster, but other elites (like burning arrow) might be worth the elite slot over broad head.

Nobody said you needed that group to finish an area. The combo can 'win' because it can finish the areas better. It will remain the most effective combo for the most part, however, which means less player capability is required. Perceptions or not, the path of least resistance is what people will travel, and that means the most mindless and effective setup. PvE is easy, and group composition barely matters for success - my entire issue is that there isn't any point 'downgrading' your group by including a class that is less effective than others.

Fun how you tell me that as if I don't play Mesmer, and forget that I mentioned in two seperate posts that Shatter Hex was one of the rare few exceptions in the Mesmer line that functioned as capable DPS.

Shame only cancels the spell being cast at the cost of energy, meaning the mob could simply recast the spell with their near to limitless energy pool. Overall Backfire would be better for your aims - nullifying heals on the caster itself while AoE's took out the health of the group. Mistrust works nicely because of the AoE - Guilt I might run for energy return on a full dom bar.

Broadhead-epidemic is a nice combo, worth the elite slot. If you can pull it off with conc-epidemic-barrage, that works as well. SMS 3-manned FoW relying on a Skull Crack warrior to daze the monk (before the change in SC's attack speed), so it's not impossible with a player that gets a feel for enemy casting patterns.

i love my mesmer in any form of PvE and PvP. they are great everywhere, and anyone that really knows how to play guild wars will always take a mesmer into their group. sadly, most of the mesmers i allow into my groups are either fast cast nukers (which suck to beging with) or they just have no idea how to play a mesmer.

people may not like mesmers (in pve) because when they are in a group, the rest of the group usually does not notice how much the mesmer is actually contributing. this is unlike a warrior because their frontline and always in sight, or an elementalist with the big flashy skills. in my opinion, a mesmer's job in pve is to make what the group is fighting easier to kill by either inteupting important skills, disabling certain professions or spreading degen througout a group and etc..

Degen is -20hp/s, and takes 2-3 skills on a single target to accomplish. That is about as much DPS as an autoattacking physical character that isn't using skills.

As mentioned many, many times before, interrupting key skills is better done by Rangers that can interrupt more constantly, on a broader range of skills. Not to mention Meteor Shower can interrupt too. ANet outdid theirself by also giving EVERY CLASS IN THE GAME a Cry (Lightbringer's Gaze) that can be used for AoE interrupting towards the endgame, removing one of the advantages of the Mesmer (interrupt the first salvo of damage with a Cry).

Making the Mesmer's skills 'flashier' might bring more into groups, but doesn't fix alot of problems with the class itself.

I think Mesmer skill should be more usability for each of them.Thinking about [skill]Overload[/skill] and [skill]Wastrel's Demise[/skill]

Even on 16 DoM Overload skill a crap skill on non caster.While Wastre'sl Demise do a bit lower damge than intened becuse most monster doesnt run a full skill bar.

And with the recent nerf.If you ever fight roaring ether you can see how much stronger this monster was.

For the Illusion line I think its ok for PvE the skill still can pretty good if you can work out with the team

Illusion of Pain is a great skill for quickly putting 10 degen on someone and if your group can't kill an enemy before it expires (Which can be extended with mantra of perssitence) then there's something wrong.
Also CoF is still a quarter second cast making it a better interrupt than gaze, which is only useful in a few areas of the game.

I do agree that mesmers need more "crowd control" AoEDoT snares, more AoE attacks, more spammability etc

Illusion of Pain deals 20 damage per second. Combined with MoP, that's two skills for 20 dps. Not exactly awe inspiring against monsters that have 600-1000 life.

Quite simply, the only areas it is useful in are the only areas that pose a threat. Some of the biggest dangers to groups are things like the Rain of Terror water spikes - all composed of skills much longer than 1s cast. When you only need to halt the first salvo until your full group firepower hits, you aren't going to be halting pinpoint attacks but blocking group DeepFreezes and the like.

Furthermore, I already mentioned there is an exception in places like Urgoz Warren with a large number of caster mobs, where Cry is useful. An exception - not a rule. Cry can be brought by anyone, after all, as the dom spec makes little difference to the point of the skill.



An AoEDoT snare would make sense, if PvE wasn't largely composed of fighting static packs of mobs where mobility is rarely an issue... and if DoT hexes didn't do nearly nothing compared to damage in terms of the time required to bring down a full group. Perhaps it would be helpful to keep monsters in AoE attacks, but if that were the case groups would bring water snares (actually not sure of this, do people bring these?) - which would fit better onto Eles anyway.

I would KILL for a bit of an overload buff

But regarless, i know that many people are saying 'mesmers dont NEED a buff', but you have to admit it would be nice for them to be buffed a little, to balance the infinite nerfs that they've had to deal with

The issues surrounding the mesmer class in PvE have i think been identified here very well and being honest have been known to most experienced mesmer players for sometime.

The real question is, is how in heck does Anet balance the class between PvP and PvE? Having a huge armor ignoring or mass aoe shutdown skill would create havoc in PvP, and yet may well be the one thing that finally breaks the stigma(in the general populations eyes) of taking a mes.

As much as we would like to see the skill sets of mobs changed(why are there very few decent monster monks for example) or behavoir reworked I'm not sure that this will ever happen. The real chance Anet have of doing this is in hard mode, but my gut feel that will be higher levels, more monster only skills/env effects and less time to complete the mission. Changing skill sets of every mob in the game(including those in explorables) is an enormous amount of work and in all honesty not one I feel Anet would do just for one class. It's what PvE needs, but i'm not sure it's what PvE will get,

So if PvP needs outweigh PvE(not going into that one, it's just the way it is atm) and a complete skill rework of every mob in the game is in my view unlikely, what other options are there.

Just changing skills to do something different, making them more 'useful' may not be enough; we have the PvP factor to consider remember. Maybe a complete attribute line overhual would be the way ahead?

Doing the above and moving skills to and from attribiute lines could enable balance to be achieved. Moving some skills into the say fast casting line may just be a more subtle way of achieving this, as to take a PvP overpowered build is made harder due to attribute splits but useful spells can still be used in PvE.

The final option could be to create some PvE mesmer only skills, sunspears and light bringers get their own skills, so why not mesmers, assasins, and the other underclasses of class have them. let us rampage with AoE shutdowns, damage in PvE but deny those in PvP.

I know Anet have said that they won't split PvP and pvE skills, and thats the correct choice. There is no point in having two version of backfire for example. But they have set the precident for PvE only skills and this may well form part of the answer. On the other side this would then create a feeling of resentment from the other classes(they get a special skill, why not us)

Certainly the signals from Anet are changing, or more probably being clarfied. A few weeks back Gaile mentioned mesmer buffs and gave the impression that buffs were on the very much om the way. However the other day this message was watered down/clarified


So it maybe the mesmer class wont be changed at all??

In anycase I don't envy Anets job in balancing this, but it is my hope that if they do go ahead with changes they are done in an elegant way that actually benefits the entire game, not just the class.

Just my 2gp

A few weeks for assessments?

Just about any person who plays the game would already know the issues. ANet can't look at numbers and figures to see the 'situation', because things usually don't work in the game the way they look like they will on paper. They'd be better off just requesting an analysis from the people who play the game. They'd have it within the day, and it would encompass more viewpoints. Hell, they can have mine, free of charge.

I don't wish to be offensive to ANet, but an 'analysis of the situation' is something you maintain and update as the situation develops (especially after you make changes that can create said situation), not something you throw together after you realize there's a problem that needs solving.

Actually, Izzy recently mentioned on WoC that he fully expects ANet to explore the realm of more PvE-only skills in the future. I wouldn't be surprised if this is how they answer the "Mesmer dilemma."

Mesmers do well in PvP and any Mesmer worth his (or her) salt will do well in PvE too. It's not exactly the easiest class to play, but I don't think ANet should go out of their way to make them so. In some senses, that's what's fun about playing the class.

I'm not saying changes aren't needed; I'm sure they are. Rather, I'm simply suggesting that the necessary changes may not need to be as drastic as people think. One thing is for certain: ANet is going to have to look long and hard at where they are taking the class as a whole before diving in and making live changes. Furthermore, for all we know, "analysis" probably also involves testing out class revisions on their end, and seeing how well those changes perform. Without actually being on the dev team to see 'behind the curtain,' it's hard to make accusations about the efficiency of their processes.

Although a lot of the suggestions so far are pretty good. I'm curious to see if any of them will make it into the game. Time will tell, I guess.

Oh, yeah, as long as we're on timelines: ANet is a company making money that should be serving their "constituent gamers." But what so few seem to remember is that ArenaNet is a diamond in the rough when it comes to listening to player feedback: we're lucky we're getting an assessment and changes at all. So what if it takes a couple weeks? I've waited this long, I think I can handle a little longer.

If pve is about having the 1337est lightbringer comparable skills in the future, I will quit gw.

I LIKE the balanced sort of pve.

With my Mesmer i always seem to be doing enough dmg for the team. My skill bar has degen and anti attack (not anti-melee!) Idk if its just my build or what, but i really don't need a change for my char. But thats only speaking for me.

If you wondering my skills are Ineptitude, Images of Remorse, clumsiness & Conjure Phantasm. Works good

I don't think future PvE-only skills would be unbalanced - just more common, probably. Though when I think about it, class-specific PvE-only skills would be trippy.... unless, of course, if everybody got some. But even then you start running into the issue that other classes could possibly get awesome stuff, and Mesmers get the shaft.

But at least in that case balance could be addressed for PvE ONLY, without having to worry about how changing skills would mess up PvP.

Please use my new thread for this discussion. I did not want to get off-topic.

Same here, I really, really want nice balanced mobs in PvE. Alas thats so much work i'm not sure it will happen. We can dream tho..
Back onto all things mesmer. The only real option I can see as not having an adverse effect on PvP is PvE only mesmer skills. But then again that opens up a whole new can of worms.

It will be interesting to see how this is addressed, as it will give us a nice insight into how Ch4 will operate

What about a line of skills that did bonus damage to monsters? Such as:

Conjure Phantasm
Target foe suffers from -5 health degeneration for X seconds. If target foe was a monster or summoned creature, that foe suffers and additional -5 health degeneration per second and is blinded.

Because then it gimps the monsters. Watch out, because Anet may then balance the monsters by giving them "Monster skill: Target foe's Domination attribute is set to 0. This hex cannot be removed"

I think the best way to make a balance is to make skills that are very useful in PvE but not so useful in PvP. Barrage is a perfect example. Virtually all rangers play barragers (except in specialized trap groups), because it takes advantage of the AI. In PvP, nobody bunches up against AoE attacks. Meteor shower is another example. The long cast time and high cost makes it a poor PvP skill. Also, human players will run away from meteor showers. However, along with Searing Flames, Meteor Shower is the best PvE nuking spell in the game.

The reason why the holy trinity is so good in PvE is because they take advantage of the AI, particularly the tendancy for the AI to bunch together. They are not overpowered in PvP because human players know better. So what the Mesmer needs are skills that are useful against the AI, but pretty bad against a smart opponent. Perhaps an AoE spell that only damages enemies that are attacking or casting a spell? In PvP, half the time people are running around, in PvE monsters are always swinging away.

Mistrust is a decent PvE oriented spell. The AI stupidly casts right through it, and it does some nice AoE damage. More skills that are similar. Maybe an AoE variant of Clumsiness that makes all adjacent foes take 50 damage (but does not interrupt attack, to keep it from begin too powerful). Also, the Mesmer can use a PvE oriented elite. Most of the Mesmer elites are not that great for PvE (except maybe Echo, but the mesmer lacks any good skill to echo).

Oh dear, I'm not sure if making the AI even stupider just to give Mesmers a PvE role is the way to go; it seems cheap and nasty. The suggestions of either making the mobs smaller and smarter or large with "leaders" is a good idea.

I think also that Mesmers are the targets of "interesting" elite ideas, like Extend Conditions and Psychic Instability. These skills, whilst unique, are often specialised and rarely useful.

I agree with [Avarre]; I can't believe that none of A-Net have played as a mesmer in PvE, whether for fun or for testing. Surely they must have noticed the problems evident.

It's a tough one. Can't wait to see the changes made (if any) and can't wait to see the player response. If nothing else, I think it will be hilarious.

I agree with this sentiment. Every class has its share of useless elites, but you're right in that Mesmers seem to get more of them.

100% agree noblepaladin. mesmer could be a pvp-only class.

They even nerfed the one and only pve elite: energy surge.

They shouldn't make the AI stupider, but they should give the Mesmer more skills that take advantage of the current AI. It is extremely difficult to make a good AI (if they do make a really great one, it would probably require too much backend processing to make the AI "think" or they will have to manually program in skill combos). Also, it is probably too much work to reprogram all the monsters in the three chapters of the game. Let's face it, all PvE builds take advantage of the current AI, nobody plays an exact PvP build. All the classes that don't have some gimmick skill (such as Mesmers and Assassins) are rarely used because they are simply ineffective when compared with other classes.

Imagine what would happen if Rangers lose Barrage, their gimmick PvE skill. Their role would turn into interrupter or trapper. Their single target attacks (which are effective in PvP) are insignficant compared to the power of an Elementalist or MM. Rather than getting a dedicated interrupter, groups would just get nukers that have knockdown (Meteor Shower) or let the tanks take an interrupt too. The PvE Ranger is effective because of one skill.

Mesmers don't have any skill that really takes advantage of the current AI. Empathy is probably the closest one, it does decent damage because the AI attacks right through it. However, being single target, it is insignificant compared to what other classes can do.

Given the current state of the AI, Mesmers will never be preferred over the other classes. If you make mobs smaller, people will just exploit other AI weaknesses (Only 3 powerful enemies in a group? Bring one Broadhead Arrow ranger and take out the caster, now it's 2v7). Mesmer interrupt and shutdown is weak compared to something like Dazed (the AI does not know how to deal with Dazed). Mesmer skills seem to be designed to pressure human players (PvP). Their interrupts have long-term negative consequences. Unless PvE battles last very long like PvP battles (at least a few minutes), the Mesmer's nasty long-term effects are never felt. However, I am sure most players are against having every fight last 5-10 minutes.

All I know is that I love my mesmer since I did THK with hechies way back in early prophecies days but I'm afraid to say that I haven't played her in months....

It's a pity but I'm sure I'll get back to her someday...
Taking down and enemy with degen is soo leet.... it's like "I can kill you without even touching you" kind of leet

There's no fanfare about mesmers .... it's a real pity.
Nowadays the closest I get to them is my echo nuker......

It sure is a good think Conjure's in Illusion then, isn't it?

Anyway. I like mesmers as they are, but I would like to see some minor buffs. Mainly to the point where things get an *adjacent* or *nearby* range added to them.

Honestly, in PvP, how often is the other team adjacent to eachother? In PvE though, it happens kind of frequently. It'd add a little extra *oomph*

Or, of course, they could make enemies not have limitless energy. That'd be a start.

I think mesmers are pretty much "jack of all trades" character and that is what makes them pretty fantastic but it is also why they are not a direly needed class in most missions( as with sin and ritualist to some extent.) But anyway what I think should be done is to make some underused aoe skills from other classes synergize well with fast casting. I agree only on this point. I dont think a big aoe buff to mesmer is needed. Mesmers have arcane echo and echo and they can copy nukes. The ability to copy skills, right there proves that they can be devistating in pve( they can also copy an elite skill from other players and be a bit versatile.) And also with the new slew of armor increasing skills they can tank for a significant amount of time from what I noticed.
I think the big thing in PVE is actually the fact that most players favor classes with rebirth so what really hurts the mesmer is that me/mo skills dont synergize really well because the lack of direct damage. they probably make good protection mesmers in certain situation but most players favor monk better and will get turned off on the whole thing. I think though if they added a skill that belong to mesmers that can rebirth with some side affects it would encourage them to play other secondaries and groups may want them in there party more often.

Not going to argue with you on that. My post was more sarcasm than actual relevant thought. I hear that happens when you're inebriated.