How to make Mesmers more wanted in PvE

The thing i dont like about mesmer skills are the SKY-HIGH recharge time.
And if A-net buffs the mesmer skills ,the balance in PvP goes too h**l

If you want to play leet Pve-mesmer take 16.fast casting and 12.fire magic

...So the only thing a Mesmer is good for is playing a weaker version of a Nuker?

ATM yes

~Toilet Oni

I agree, and that's one of the prime reasons for the sorry state of the class in PvE. Why are interrupts the part of the mesmer that works best? Because it is immediate. Most Mesmer shutdown is attrition based, gradually wearing down a foe, with only a few skills that immediately say 'no' to what an enemy is doing. As has been mentioned, resources don't really wear down in PvE, not when you're blowing up trash at least. So yes, interrupts can be pretty valuable to blunt some of those initial volleys.

The problem being that interrupts really aren't a reason to take a Mesmer. Against a lot of mobs they don't do much. Against the mobs where they are valuable, you can have DBlow on melee, the dual interrupts on every Ranger, PDrain or Leech Signet on anyone who feels like going /Mesmer, etc. If a Mesmer could do some other really useful things I'd be glad to take one, but no way am I grabbing one just for interrupts. Not when even my herohench bars have a minimum of 3 interrupts.

Peace,
-CxE

Yeah, I agree with you completely. Mesmers are great at shutdown and interrupt, but unfortunately, there are too many alternatives in PvE. Heroes simply play interrupters better, any hero with Power Drain and Leech Signet with Mes secondary has near infinite energy, and they never miss the interrupt.

On Mesmer shutdown: Some of the more powerful Mesmer abilities in PvP, such as Diversion, are meant for long term effects. What is the point of shutting down Reversal of Fortune if the enemy monk is only going to be alive for 7 seconds? In PvP, battles last for minutes because people know how to kite and avoid AoE. Over the course of a PvP battle, it is not uncommon for a Mesmer to use energy denial and remove 100 energy in total from a monk (that adds up to a lot of health that could have been healed, which is equivalent to a ton of damage). In PvE, you fire all your E-Denial and Shutdown spells only to find the target dead before they hit zero energy. Shutdown only works on bosses in PvE, and even then the use is limited. It is often better to take advantage of the "stupidness" of the AI. Broadhead Arrow, which is a mediocre skill at best in PvP is one of the best skills in PvE. Enemy AI simply casts through Dazed and gets all their spells interrupted. It virtually removes an enemy caster immediately - no need to time interrupts or use an entire skill bar of e-denial skills.

On Mesmer attrition: Mesmers are awesome at wearing down enemies. I don't know if degen teams are still popular or not, but I know that at one time they were very strong in PvP (mainly because degen goes through the Boon Protector). In the long run, Mesmers can deal incredible amounts of damage. Conjure Phantasm drains 150 armor ignoring health at level 16 (last 15 seconds), making it one of the most cost effective damage spells in the game. Degen teams in PvP could outdamage the monks' healing due to the cost effectiveness of these spells. However in PvE, most enemies are focus fired one at a time and they die within a few seconds. Degen spells don't have time to take full effect. Mesmers in PvE can do significant damage if they attack targets that the rest of the team is not focusing (ie. team goes after monks and elementalists, Mesmer uses degen, Empathy, etc on warriors and rangers). Also, some skills like Illusion of Pain is particularly effective in PvE, since focused targets usually do not survive more than 10 seconds, adding -10 degen will speed up the kill. So why isn't Mesmer attrition good in PvE? The enemy AI is stupid. Sure degen does high long term damage, but it does nothing compared to Searing Flames which does -7 degen (along with damage) on all enemies because the AI is stupid and always bunches together. AoE spells trump these single target attrition spells. In PvP, you AoE is almost the same as a single target spell because humans are smart to get out of the way (in which case Mesmer degen will do more damage), but in PvE the AoE spells always hit multiple targets.

I'm not saying that Mesmers are completely useless, in specialized situations in PvE, are very good (ex: the Shiverpeaks where there are many cold/necro hexes, inspired hex + revealed hex can fuel many skills like shatter hex. Removing degen hexes is just as good as healing, the monks will love you for it). But Mesmer's biggest strengths can often be played just as well by other classes (Ex: People fear the Mesmer interrupter in PvP, but in PvE the Ranger interrupter with Broadhead Arrow is much easier to play and probably more effective if you take advantage of the poor AI).

"We all know one of the least wanted professions in the game is the Mesmer.
The profession seems to be focused on slowly taking down 1 target"

You've never seen me work, have you? :P I'll drop any Elementalist/Necromancer/Monk in five seconds flat. Show me one, count to five, and it's dead.

Mesmers are only unwanted because people have bad experiences with players who don't know how to use a Mesmer.

My primary is a Mesmer and is incredibly powerful. I feel sorry for people who see me in a mission outpost and overlook me as an option for their party. They'd rather have some cookie-cutter "Lawl echo nuker!". And at the same time, it's very discouraging that people don't want my class just because they don't understand what it is I can do.

You're right Ensign.
When I play a PVE mesmer I'm stuck between Mantra of Recovery+conditional damage or nuking, or interrupting. That's about it.
I'd like to see more support skills. We only have the visage spells atm.

Finally, someone who knows what they're talking about.

Mesmers - death without flash.

mind sharing this wonderful build?
id love to hear it!

Since this thread is about PvE I presume you are not talking about PvP.

Somehow I am still not convinced that a mesmer can kill mobs in PvE faster than a full decked out elementalist, so why dont we try alittle experiment?

Take only certain henchies and kill a certain mob in RoT with your mesmer and we will try the same configuration with elementalist and time them to see who can clear them faster. You can only use mesmer skills and the elementalist can only use elementalist skill for this experiment. How about that?

In RoT the mesmer would probly do better. The monk has Spell Breaker (interupts ftw) and then other terrible skills. After the healer is dead the team will fall, especially with Empathy and Backfire spread around.

AOE spells do not need to target the monk to damage the monk. The monster AI is still quite dumb so monsters tend to pack together. Empathy and Backfire are good for single targets. Backfire causes damage over time as the caster monster keeps casting and damaging itself. It has a cost of 15 energy with 20s recharge before you can cast on the next monster. Empathy is a little better with 10e and 10s recharge. I still think the elementalist, with attunement, would be superior in terms of total mob damage/energy over the same period of time.

We can try proving this theory one way or another through experimentation though.

The problem with that is that there's rarely a reason to need a monk taken down in 5 seconds. In the vast majority of PvE, the monk can be ignored and everything gets nuked down pretty quickly anyway. All of PvE play still seems to basically revolve around the aforementioned holy trinity of tank, healer, and nuker. Mesmers (and assassins) have a hard time getting into groups because they don't perform any of those roles as well as other classes. Doesn't mean they aren't useful or even that they can't perform one of those roles. Just not as well as other classes. They aren't even as useful in pure utility roles like necros as batteries, for example.

It would be nice if ANet buffed the mesmer for PvE by adding some nuking skills that would allow them to be as useful as nukers (and thus as likely to get into a PUG) as necros or elementalists. I think could be done without screwing up PvP by just looking at some of the other classes functionality and adding skills that are similar but fit within the mesmer's current character framework. Consider these possibilities...


Ether Quickening

Attribute: Inspiration Magic
Type: Enchantment Spell

15e, 1c, 45r

For 20...39 seconds, you gain +2 Domination Magic and +2 Inspiration Magic, but spells you cast cost 50...25% more energy to cast.

This would basically be a mesmer version of Awaken the Blood or Glyph of Elemental Power for boosting up damage of some AoE spells. Which there just aren't enough of for the mesmer at the moment, but...


Empathetic Spirit

Attribute: Domination Magic
Type: Elite Hex Spell

15e, 2c, 10r

For 8...18 seconds, target foe and all adjacent foes are hexed with Empathetic Spirit. Whenever a hexed foe attacks, that foe takes 15...39 damage and loses all adrenaline.

An AoE version of Empathy. This would be no more powerful than Spiteful Spirit (no damage to adjacent foes) and probably of no more use in PvP than SS or Ineptitude. But it would give mesmers some PvE nuking punch against melee mobs.


Ethereal Pain

Attribute: Domination Magic
Type: Elite Hex Spell

15e, 3c, 20r

For 8...18 seconds, target foe and all nearby foes are hexed with Ethereal Pain. Whenever a hexed foe casts a spell, that foe loses 3...7 energy and takes 10 damage for each point of energy lost. Ethereal Pain ends if hexed foe's energy reaches zero.

AoE version of Backfire/Energy Burn. Likewise, no more useful in PvP than either of those. And it would be elite.


Fevered Anguish

Attribute: Illusion Magic
Type: Hex Spell

10e, 1c, 5r

For 3...13 seconds, target foe and all nearby foes suffer health degeneration of 1...4.

AoE degen. No more powerful than Suffering for the necro, but would be the setup for...


Crush Delusions

Attribute: Domination Magic
Type: Elite Spell

15e, 1c, 20r

Remove one Mesmer hex from target foe and all adjacent foes. Each affected foe takes 25...100 damage.

Basically a mesmer version of Feast of Corruption. Heavy AoE spike Damage ftw.


Shadow Phantasm

Attribute: Illusion Magic
Type: Elite Hex Spell

10e, 2c, 5r

For 1...13 seconds, target foe is hexed with Shadow Phantasm. Whenever target foe attacks or uses a skill that foe and all adjacent foes suffer from blindness for 5 seconds.


Again, probably no more useful in PvP than BSurge or Glimmering Mark, but it could be quite useful in many PvP situations to reduce damage from melee mobs. Or it might not get used any more often than Glimmering Mark but I thought I'd throw it out there.

And aside from the nuking aspect, mesmers currently have a lot of skills relating to energy gain/drain/denial. So maybe there could be some spells that allow the mesmer to play the battery role while maybe adding a few of their current nice capabilities to a party. Like...

Ether Leech

Attribute: Fast Casting
Type: Elite Hex Spell

5e, 1c, 5r

For 1...6 seconds, whenever target foe attacks or casts a spell, you steal up to 1...6 energy from that foe and all nearby foes.

Somewhat useful for e-denial, but not so much that it would likely ever be used as an elite in PvP. The energy gained could be useful to power...

Ether Bond

Attribute: Inspiration Magic
Type: Enchantment Spell

5e, 1c, 5r

For 5...17 seconds, target other ally gains +0...2 energy regeneration and you suffer -1 energy degeneration.

Like Succor or Blood Bond except for energy. Might allow the necro to power up some other players while again bringing some of their current mesmer capabilities to PUG groups.


Ether Burst

Attribute: Inspiration Magic
Type: Elite Enchantment Spell

10e, 1c, 10r

Lose all energy. Target touched ally and all nearby allies gain 1...25 energy.

This last one would allow a mesmer to play a role similar to a BiP necro but providing bursts of energy instead of regen. Again, this is probably of little or no use in PvP so it shouldn't affect balance, but might help mesmers get into PUGs more easily.

I don't PvP, so I could be wrong about how much these might affect PvP, but it seems like some of them would really help mesmers in PvE.

Buffing up mesmer skills is nice but there is a possibility of abuse from secondary mesmers so I have another suggestion. One of the most limiting aspect of a primary mesmer is the Fast Casting attribute.

Energy is a HUGE problem for mesmers, in fact I would even go as far to say that energy is one of the mains reasons why primary mesmers are not as popular in PvE.

Why? Just look at the unique attribute lines of every profession in GW:

Monks divine favor gives an energy advantage because it grants bonus heals. With more heals, means you dont need to cast heals or protection spells as often, thus saving the monk energy.

Elementalists have energy storage that increases their energy pool. On top of that they also have good energy management skills like the attunements (which is very popular among elementalists), and GoLE.

Necros have soul reaping and I dont think I need to say how useful that attribute is as an energy advantage.

Even rangers have expertise which gives an energy advantage and they are not even a caster class.

Assassins have critical strike, Ritualists have spawning power which gives more hp to their spirits so they can last longer and dont need frequent recast. Paragons have leadership and Dervishs have Mysticism. All these primary attributes give an energy advantage!

Warriors's strength doesn't give an energy advantage but that doesn't matter as much since they have adrenaline skills and they are not a caster class since they depend more on their weapons for damage.

Mesmers have what? Fast casting? What energy advantage does that give? Also fast casting is more useful in PvP than in PvE. With fast casting you increase the chance of completing your cast rather than being interrupted. You also increase the chance of interrupting others. How important is fast casting, in PvE, with a laggy mob charging at you while you try to interrupt one monster at a time?

Another problem is that mesmer energy skills, besides the elite Mantra of Recall, tend to be offensive (e.g. Ether Lord, Energy Tap, Energy Drain) so ANet may not be able to boost them as much without considering skill balance. These skills have gone through numerous nerfs and boosts since the beginning.

If being a primary mesmer is to be energy disadvantaged in PvE, then of course the trend would be to either build secondary mesmers or avoid the mesmer class altogether. My suggestion to ANet would be to Add an energy advantage to the Fast Casting attribute line to fix this problem. Maybe something along the line of, the more points into Fast Casting, the higher your energy regen and scale that appropriately.

Or, tagging along with Dark Spirits thoughts... have fast casting decrease the chance that a mesmer can be interrupted. Think of it as being able to cast around or through the interrupt inherently with a percent increase as fast casting goes up.

If someone wants logic behind it... think that the greater focus and concentration to cast spells at a greater rate also enhances the ability to ignore things that would interrupt.

You could also add an inverse effect... a percent chance increase that any spell cast will interrupt the enemies action. Even if it's one to two percent per point in fast casting, it adds up.

Now everyone look at the swirly light and forget about the effects on PvP...

Yeah but from a general pve point of view, interrupt prevention is not that useful since you can also hide behind walls (against ranger monsters) and mesmer monsters have limited interrupts. Their AI is still quite dumb so interrupts are usually not a major problem in general pve.

Energy advantage for prolonged fights against a powerful mob would be more useful in pve. Tying that to the Fast Casting attribute would make primary mesmers more popular in pve and prevent abuse from secondary mesmers which are already popular since secondary mesmers can depend on their own primary attribute that already has good energy management capabilities.

When discussing PvE damage, you should talk about team damage and not single player damage.

The 'I can kill a caster in 5 seconds' is true, but that does not apply on the whole mob.
A couple of SF ele's do much more damage (dps) when targeting a close mob.

There is however one more reason besides AI and dps why mesmers are not that wanted in PuGs.
The W/E/Mo (and probably MM) setup is easy to play and requires not that much thought. It's easy to do a fair amount of damage as W or E.
The same is true for B/P teams. You only have one or two people that know what they are doing to keep things going. The rest of the B/P's can just go 1-1-1-1....

There are a couple of situations that require a different setup.
I can think of Glint, Shiro, Healer's Boon boss for example.
Many teams fail miserably because those enemies are not easily taken down with the standard W/E setup.
You have to know something about your opponent and how to counter them.
And most PuGs don't have that knowledge, they just know how to do damage.

When you want to shine as a mesmer, you have to adjust your skills to fill the gaps in the team or to buff the skills they use.
That's something that almost never happens outside organised teams.
And even then, because of AI and dps, it's probably better to have a nuker instead of mesmer.

Best examples I know about how 'wrong' PvE is:
Deep and Orguz.
Those area's are nothing more than large numbers of mobs with huge damage.
You take a mesmer there, he can take out one or two enemies.
But there are six or seven left.
So what do you take?
Warrior as wall, Ele and SS necro for damage.
They damage all 8 or nine at once, with dps a mesmer can never get.

Compare that to high end PvP, where mesmers do have a role.
At least, I see them often in top 100 GvG and HoH battles.
That's the kind of environment mesmers can and do make the difference.
No blocking, less AoE, people can't run off to kill the enemy monk.
Enemies are hitting hard and are probably healed by two monks.
They focus on the most vulnerable parts of the team.
That's the kind of environment where energy pressure and diversion work.

Change the PvE part of the game to that and mesmers will be valuable.
And about 80% of the PvE population will quit screaming it's too hard.
I know, I'm switching from PvE to PvP right now and PvP a tough environment compared to PvE.

I agree that mesmers not having any energy benefit from their primary attribute is a problem. But I just don't think ANet is likely to change that. The potential for unbalancing PvP with that would seem to be much higher than just adding some PvE-oriented AoE elites. I also don't think there is much chance of abuse by secondary mesmers of skills like that. You'd have as hard of a hard time getting in a PUG as an ele or necro advertising as a "Crush Delusions nuker" as mesmers currently do getting in a group as a "fast casting fire nuker" or "fast casting SS nuker", imo. As a true nuker, a secondary mesmer just couldn't do as much damage as a primary who could use runes to get their attribute to 16... if mesmers just had some really good nuking spells like necros and eles currently do.


You could have ended your comment just before the word "screaming." As in if they change the PvE part of the game to make it more like PvP, 80% of the PvE population will quit.

Seriously, look at the hubbub and screaming over the last major AI change that makes monsters kite more and go for backlines and such. Most PvEers seem to prefer wadding the foes up on a tank and nuking the crap out of them. I think if they changed PvE to be even more like PvP, there would be a mass exodus of PvE players.

I think what is needed, besides fixing fast casting, is to define a role for mesmers. What are mesmers best for?

Tanks - Usually warriors and dervishes are best for such role

Healers - Usually monks are best for such role

Nukers - Usually Elementalists are best for such role

Interrupts - Mesmers face serious competition from rangers in this area. Rangers can interrupt more frequently but they need line-of-sight. In PvE monsters are too dumb to hide behind walls, so rangers can be argued to be better interrupters than mesmers at least in the pve stage.

Party buffs - Ritualists and Paragons

High damage Traps - Rangers

Energy/skill denial - Mesmers but on single targets, and it is not that useful in general PvE against mobs given the energy cost and recharge. Can be useful against certain caster bosses though.

Primary mesmers need to find a role that they are best at without making secondary mesmers over powered.

Nope, But you can't take my monk down in 5 seconds... That's yet to be done...


Mesmers are powerful, But they usually focus on one target, which is what PvE lacks. If we had smaller, better AI mobs with better SKILLS, it would be worth more to take a mesmer in PvE.