In my opinion, Spawning really is not that great. It doesn't help too much and it makes the ritualist a less wanted class. Compare it to any other classes Primary and you will see that this primary, well...sucks.
Adding extra health to spirits is not that significant. I mean it increases the power of a few rituals by increase there health so they have more to lose, but its still not worth the spot of a primary attribute.
What about Resto rits or Lightning Nuker rits? They dont use too many spirits, and draining points into Spawning just makes the build less efective. Only thing that benefits a bit is pure Spirit rits. But ANet is trying to get rid of spirit spammers, so it is becoming less and less favored.
What do you think?
~Silent
Your thoughts on Spawning?
Silent Elvin Ranger
Geishe
its one of the worst primaries. The only point of spawning for me is Attuned was Songkai, Explosive MM, and Spirits Strength.
Silent Elvin Ranger
I know that Rits got a few good buffs recently, but they (like the mesmer), need a huge buff to make them good enough to be a well-balenced character.
Rit as healer=beaten by monk
Rit as Nuker=beaten by ele
Rit as spirit spammer=the best spirit spammer, but they are getting nerfed...so its worthless
Rit as mm=beaten by necro (soul reaping=unlimited casting)
~Silent
Rit as healer=beaten by monk
Rit as Nuker=beaten by ele
Rit as spirit spammer=the best spirit spammer, but they are getting nerfed...so its worthless
Rit as mm=beaten by necro (soul reaping=unlimited casting)
~Silent
Geishe
That I disagree with.
Rit as healer beats monk, monk as PROT beats rit. Rits raw healing is unmatched currently... on top of unstrippable weapon spells.
Rit as nuker is currently on par, I have seen some RA matches where people complained rits got OVERbuffed, but I believe this is how channeling should have been in the first place.
Rit as Spirit Spammer... still works, you just cant focus on defense now, including a mix of offensive + defensive (mostly union) is the way to go now. Or full out offense works >.<!
Rit as MM... rits cant play mm >.> Explosive Minionmancer cant be played bt necros... theyre basically two seperate builds of similar skills.
Spawning power is mediocre, but the skills inside are nice.
Rits are very very very very very very verstaile characters, use it to your advantage.
Rit as healer beats monk, monk as PROT beats rit. Rits raw healing is unmatched currently... on top of unstrippable weapon spells.
Rit as nuker is currently on par, I have seen some RA matches where people complained rits got OVERbuffed, but I believe this is how channeling should have been in the first place.
Rit as Spirit Spammer... still works, you just cant focus on defense now, including a mix of offensive + defensive (mostly union) is the way to go now. Or full out offense works >.<!
Rit as MM... rits cant play mm >.> Explosive Minionmancer cant be played bt necros... theyre basically two seperate builds of similar skills.
Spawning power is mediocre, but the skills inside are nice.
Rits are very very very very very very verstaile characters, use it to your advantage.
Eroth
All the other Primaries match, sorta of a patern. The brutes do more damage (war=Strength), rangers use less energy, monks heal more, mes shutdown or w/e faster, sins do semi-random dmg spikes, so on and so forth but the rt's just sucks. It could have been something to do with health bonuses to the character, enchantment extention, or even additional dmg spirits and channeling does. Something productive. Yeah it was good in the beginning, but the spirits got nerfed.
Calen The Civl
Spawning power as an attribute is poor in its influences. As a skill tree it has wonderful utility spells, however.
Generally, spawning power means nothing for spirits because they are so fragile to begin with. At best, it gives a level 8 spirit 1 or 2 more hits.
Rits are not meant to be MMs. However, using a Flesh Golem as a familiar to cast weapon spells onto can be effective.
Perhaps Spawning Power should be changed to the following:
For every 2 attribute levels, all created creatures gain 1 more level.
This would allow for lvl 15 spirits at 16 spawning and 15 communing; it would also allow the familiars of a rit to be a higher level than a necro's (level 21 flesh golem at 12 death + 8 levels at 16 spawning = level 29 golem). Basically quality over quantity.
Both of these would address some of the complaints surrounding extremely fragile spirits. It would not outshine a necro mm because a rit cannot keep any more than a few minions alive and going.
Added: This could lead to more damage to the spirits and minions if designed. However, this would be balanced by making the rit more fragile if they are running 2 superior runes.
Generally, spawning power means nothing for spirits because they are so fragile to begin with. At best, it gives a level 8 spirit 1 or 2 more hits.
Rits are not meant to be MMs. However, using a Flesh Golem as a familiar to cast weapon spells onto can be effective.
Perhaps Spawning Power should be changed to the following:
For every 2 attribute levels, all created creatures gain 1 more level.
This would allow for lvl 15 spirits at 16 spawning and 15 communing; it would also allow the familiars of a rit to be a higher level than a necro's (level 21 flesh golem at 12 death + 8 levels at 16 spawning = level 29 golem). Basically quality over quantity.
Both of these would address some of the complaints surrounding extremely fragile spirits. It would not outshine a necro mm because a rit cannot keep any more than a few minions alive and going.
Added: This could lead to more damage to the spirits and minions if designed. However, this would be balanced by making the rit more fragile if they are running 2 superior runes.
Eroth
good idea. wonder if we could submit this to Anet and see if enough GW Guru officals and so on (such as leaders from top guilds and the owners of HzH and Cavalon) would sign something to represent as a player acceptance of the change. It we do...
/signed
/signed
Cebe
My thoughts on spawning...I don't leave home without it.
I, more often than not, go spirit spamming and in doing so I max out spawning...this is mainly to make Rit Lord work as well as possible. I like to able to use spirits such as Displacement as much as possible since they go down so fast. which I see as being important for spirits like Union and Displacement which take damage when they make something happen. I use a custom-made staff with Communing +1 (20%) on it so 1/5th of the time my spirits are a higher level than they normally would be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geishe
I, more often than not, go spirit spamming and in doing so I max out spawning...this is mainly to make Rit Lord work as well as possible. I like to able to use spirits such as Displacement as much as possible since they go down so fast. which I see as being important for spirits like Union and Displacement which take damage when they make something happen. I use a custom-made staff with Communing +1 (20%) on it so 1/5th of the time my spirits are a higher level than they normally would be.
Quote:
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Calen The Civl
Generally, spawning power means nothing for spirits because they are so fragile to begin with. At best, it gives a level 8 spirit 1 or 2 more hits.
A good Ritualist knows where to place their spirits on the battlefield. Protective spirits stay at the back right out of harms way. This means that they don't get hit as often, if at all. Let's look at Union for example. A Level 8 Union with 0 Spawning can take 14 lots of 15 Damage. The same Level 8 Union with 16 Spawning can take about 23 lots of 15 damage. So providing you know how to place your spirits, they shouldn't get hit too much, and so Spawning will make them considerably more useful due to their higher health.
Umm, as for the Spawning change... /notsigned. Spawning is fine as it is and if your spirits are dying too fast...put them somewhere else...or take Draw Spirit to move them out of harms way. To do that to Spawning would make RItualists very overpowered imo.
lightblade
Ritualist beats both monk and elementist when its in the right hand.
In newbies' hand, monk and elementist do look better because their use are pretty much mindless button smashing. Only thing that monk need to do is seen who ever is low on hp and heal! There's plenty of time I've seen monk cast [skill]Guardian[/skill] on people that's low on hp but NOT being attacked by melee. In experienced player's hand, Mo + E and Rt are evenly matched. Both can be good. But in expert's hand Rt actually exceed both of them. Example. 1. Barrage + Splinter Weapon hit 500 AoE dmg over 3 seconds. I don't see any elementist can do that. If you precast Splinter weapon on all your allies, you can go beyond this. 2. Warmonger Weapon need to be casted on the right target to interrupt infinitely. I don't see any mesmer can do this. 3. Attuned Was Songkai + Restoration Magic. Ritualist can be more durable in battle than monks. By the time monk is out of energy, Rt can still be going. Spirit Spamming is just as brainless as monk and elementist's play style. Weapon spells are the true power of Ritualist, because unlike enchantments, this canNOT be removed.
noocoo
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightblade
Spirit Spamming is just as brainless as monk and elementist's play style. Weapon spells are the true power of Ritualist, because unlike enchantments, this canNOT be removed.
Yes,
but spawning power attribute is almost useless for weapon spells, restoration spells and channeling attack spells. That is the point from OP I guess.
Cebe
Quote:
Originally Posted by noocoo
Yes,
but spawning power attribute is almost useless for weapon spells, restoration spells and channeling attack spells. That is the point from OP I guess. I wouldn't go do far to say Spawning was useless for anything other than Spirit Spamming. The thing I've noticed about most primary attributes is that they incorporate the energy management for most classes (mesmers excluded). This basically means that you can't effectively use another profession's primary attribute as your energy management. Example being Elementalist...both Master of Magic and Ether Prism do nothing at 0 Energy Storage...Elemental Attunement is only JUST usable providing you are also using other elementalist skills (in which case...just go play ele). Rit e-management is in the spawming line (Spirit Chanelling, Attuned was Songkai, Renewing Memories..). Ranger e-management is their attribute, Expertise, itself, as is the Necromancer's primary Soul Reaping. This all seems to be to force you to use your own profession's energy management. Back to my point...I use a Spawning/Restoration build when I go Healing Rit. Having said that, I only use one spawning skill...and that is Spirit Channeling which I use as my e-management (yes, sometimes I go AwS + Serpent's Quickness, but I favour Spirit Channeling atm). So it is almost always beneficial to use your primary attribute. Exceptions would be Warriors and Mesmers where it may not make a great deal of difference. I find Spawning to have some pretty robust energy management skills in though.
lightblade
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver
...The thing I've noticed about most primary attributes is that they incorporate the energy management for most classes (mesmers excluded). This basically means that you can't effectively use another profession's primary attribute as your energy management.
... How come I never noticed that before... Warrior - Strength: Have skills that build adrenaline and recover energy Ranger - Expertise: Reduce energy cost. Monk - Divine Favor: Additional healing to reduce overall energy spending Mesmer - Fast Casting: Exception Elementalist - Energy Storage: Help recover energy Necromancer - Soul Reaping: Recover energy on creature death Assassin - Critical Strike: Recover energy on critical hits Paragon - Leadership: Recover energy on shout/chant Dervish - Mystism: Recover energy on enchantment end Primary attribute really is that energy management line.
Terra Xin
I don't like the inherent bonus you get from Spawning Power. It's easy for me to make builds that don't require spawning power. For any other profession, it would hurt me when I don't have skills in that primary attribute...
Cebe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terra Xin
I don't like the inherent bonus you get from Spawning Power. It's easy for me to make builds that don't require spawning power. For any other profession, it would hurt me when I don't have skills in that primary attribute...
But would you consider the "not requiring of Spawning Power to make good builds" a good thing or a bad thing? Or like me do you feel there should always be a reason to use the primary attribute and that the primary attribute is there for a reason?
Geishe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver
I wouldn't go do far to say Spawning was useless for anything other than Spirit Spamming. The thing I've noticed about most primary attributes is that they incorporate the energy management for most classes (mesmers excluded). This basically means that you can't effectively use another profession's primary attribute as your energy management.
Back to my point...I use a Spawning/Restoration build when I go Healing Rit. Having said that, I only use one spawning skill...and that is Spirit Channeling which I use as my e-management (yes, sometimes I go AwS + Serpent's Quickness, but I favour Spirit Channeling atm). So it is almost always beneficial to use your primary attribute. Exceptions would be Warriors and Mesmers where it may not make a great deal of difference. I find Spawning to have some pretty robust energy management skills in though. That, I never noticed!! However, the problem I see is that Ritualists have more than one facet for energy management... and that screws up spawning power for me. Like Channeling, including an essence strike can already help out a LOT (and with bloodsong, spirits are easy to keep up.) Restoration is extremely versatile, with needing only one attribute line to heal effectively... thus you can easily use AwS as e management or just grab a /me secondary for inspiration. So its viable to say spawning power provides ritualists energy management, but unfortunately, its not the only way... unlike Soul Reaping or Energy Storage... (cant complain about the otherl primaries ^.^) Offering of Spirit is another form of energy management in the channeling line... most can argue its not the best elite, but it just reinforces how you do not necessarily need spawning to get the benefits of energy management. Its other benefit (the spirit's health benefit) can greatly help SOME builds and hinder other builds. However, every once in a while, I just like grabbing a pair of daggers and stabbing people with spirits strength for 100+. Oh, joy!
Painbringer
Personally it is not any good unless you are laying spirits a Minion master or using the skills in spawning, but left over points need to go somewhere. If they did change it I would love an energy return when spirits die in the area. (Yours the parties and the enemy’s) A buff like +1 energy per 3 levels in spawning? Might help out those casting shelter, union, and so on.
Calen The Civl
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver
A good Ritualist knows where to place their spirits on the battlefield. Protective spirits stay at the back right out of harms way. This means that they don't get hit as often, if at all. Let's look at Union for example. A Level 8 Union with 0 Spawning can take 14 lots of 15 Damage. The same Level 8 Union with 16 Spawning can take about 23 lots of 15 damage. So providing you know how to place your spirits, they shouldn't get hit too much, and so Spawning will make them considerably more useful due to their higher health. I agree a good Ritualist knows where to place spirits on the battlefield. There can be an entire science around spirit placement in this game. However, from my experiences I have noticed offensive spirits tend to draw aggro to them despite being the longbow distance away from the enemy. The Ai registers them as a low AL target and tend to run after them even before the monks. The change I suggested would just allow these spirits to be similar to minions in their survivability when this occurs. Protection Spirits may become a bit overpowered. They would be back to a similar level to the old Ritual Lord build if spawning power was changed to what I proposed. However, unlike the timing of the original Ritual Lord build, now there are many ways to quickly kill spirits a ritual lord would lay down. Such as Gaze of Fury and other spirit specific destroying methods pvp players have at their disposal. Plus a 2 superior rune running ritualist is a very easy target to spike even far in the back line. Another balance for this would be to increase the Sin's shadow stepping distance. I do agree with lightblade. Weapon spells (and healing for long periods of time) are where the rit especially shines. Ideally, I would like to see spawning power changed to something that would help with most of a rit's potential builds. However, my suggestion just sticks to the spirit of Spawning Power's current effect.
Cebe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calen The Civl
I agree a good Ritualist knows where to place spirits on the battlefield. There can be an entire science around spirit placement in this game. However, from my experiences I have noticed offensive spirits tend to draw aggro to them despite being the longbow distance away from the enemy. The Ai registers them as a low AL target and tend to run after them even before the monks. The change I suggested would just allow these spirits to be similar to minions in their survivability when this occurs.
I generally don't get the enemy coming after my spirits straight away, even the offensive ones.
On the odd occaision they do I leave them to destroy the spirits I've made and move elsewhere. This usually throws their aggro.
Oso Minar
Spawning Power?
Wonderful skills. Horrible additional effect. The main problem lies in the Ritualist's versatility. If the Ritualist chooses to focus on anything OTHER than spirit-spamming (which we do quite frequently), Spawning greatly loses its appeal. So much so, in fact, that I'll often see E/Rt or Me/Rt folks popping up instead to take advantage of a bigger Energy pool or faster casts. I don't know how it can be "fixed", either. All I can see is that other primaries affect ALL aspects of the character, and the Spawning attribute does not. Strength adds damage to ALL weapon types. Fast Casting makes ALL spells cast faster. Energy Storage gives an Energy pool that they can use for ALL spells. Meanwhile, some Ritualists (myself included) often run bars without a single spirit, making our primary useless. So how do you fix that? Well, in my opinion, the definition of "spawning" should be looked at. When we cast an item spell, we create a pot of ashes that we hold. Spawning a pot, if you will? When we cast a weapon spell, the image of the weapon is changed. Spawning an upgraded weapon, maybe? So why not have Spawning Power have an added effect on all of our creation spells? Now, having a 4% bonus on all creation spells might be a bit much, having our weapon spells do 48% more damage with 12 Spawning is certainly too much. Why not scale it so that at rank 6 it adds one level to the creation spell's level, at rank 12 it adds two? Even that may be overpowered, but at least it would create an effect that affects ALL aspects of being a Ritualist. I have no idea. All I know is that our Primary attribute certainly does not affect all aspects of our class. There are some good skills, but the effect that we need is absent. Calen The Civl
You have very good points, Oso. Mostly when I play my ritualist, I either have no spirits on the bar or no points in spawning at all when I do use spirits. I mainly use the spawning line for the great skills in it than the effect.
Perhaps we could get even bolder and rename the attribute line completely. Something like "Spiritual Attunement" for example. That way there would be more freedom to change the effect to influence all aspects of the class than the current definition of Spawning Power allows. Throwing out another idea that is likely overpowered but might get some other ideas flowing: Spiritual Attunement: You become more attuned to the spiritual realm, and your tranquility soothes all those around you. For every 5 attribute points, you and all party members within earshot of you use 1 less energy for every spell cast. Likely this would be overpowered, considering at rank 15 all spells around the rit would cost 3 energy less. Hence 5 energy spells would cost just 2 energy for all party members. It is just another idea to toss around however.
frojack
Spawning? Piece-a-crap. Next question...
Seriously though, it offers nothing but skills. Would make as much difference to Ritualists if Restoration was the primary line. The spirit-level idea is interesting, though it would still need more than that to make it actually 'count' for something (fragility will never leave spirits while they are immobile). Spirit creation time and recharge is a good start (after your level idea of course)...
upier
i quite love the skills in it - rl, boon, feast, attuned, spirit to flesh, rapture, consume, .... - some very sweet skills!
too bad they completely trashed the skills that would benefit the most from high spawning - yes i am looking at you displacement and shelter! so as a selectoin of skills - id consider it much better then the insanely bad fast casting. and thats currently the only reason why i like it.
Eroth
Quote:
Originally Posted by Painbringer
Personally it is not any good unless you are laying spirits a Minion master or using the skills in spawning, but left over points need to go somewhere. If they did change it I would love an energy return when spirits die in the area. (Yours the parties and the enemy’s) A buff like +1 energy per 3 levels in spawning? Might help out those casting shelter, union, and so on.
that'd just be a bad copy cat of Soul Reaping.
I'd suggest something like +1 energy regen pip every 5 levels. so at 16 spawning you'd have +7 energy regen total 4+3=7. then there are skills to help gain more or sac or lose an energy regen pip to do something Endurance Extended Weapon Spell. You suffer from -3...1 energy and gain +5...30 armor and +50...300 maximum health. (Spawing Power) ( or something like that) It's an example, but I think it'd be a good idea. Bargamer
Minion Bombers LOVE Spawning Power. Ok, Boon's mini-nerf means we no longer get Animate Bone Minions for free, but a cheaper Explosive Growth is nice. Spirit's Gift? Sure, what the hey. As for the additional effect, I love that too. Those few more seconds that a Bone Minion stays alive almost always guarantees that a Death Nova from my Hero or me lands.
The only time I ever really played around with Spirits was when I was under level 5 and those were the only creation spells I had. Once I got Animate Bone Minions from the Shing Jea teacher, it was GOODBYE Spirits, and don't come back! I don't got time to coddle and place a bunch of spirits, I've got quite enough on my plate casting Nova on minions that I can barely see, directing my NPCs, and marveling at the stupidity of noob players. Whammos with Mending and Suicide Assassins, I'm looking at you! Other builds? Spawning Power is an all or nothing tree. You either love it or you hate it. The thing about Rits is that we don't necessarily need our Primary in order to do well. (Blah-blah-blah, insert more quotes from the wiki. I bore of this.)
Oso Minar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bargamer
Other builds? Spawning Power is an all or nothing tree. You either love it or you hate it. The thing about Rits is that we don't necessarily need our Primary in order to do well. (Blah-blah-blah, insert more quotes from the wiki. I bore of this.)
And that's exactly the problem.
Other classes have more to offer from those "other Ritualist builds blah blah" that you state. An E/Rt, although the spells don't hit quite as well, have much more staying power through the fights due to their huge Energy pools. Rangers and melee characters can get more out of our weapon skills because they can actually use Runes on the weapon's attribute (Not to mention Expertise, etc). The fact is, while *some* builds benefit from Spawning Power, a VAST majority do not. I have occasionally seen Rangers, Paragons, and Dervishes complain that because their weapons draw their major power off a single attribute (Warriors have Strength to augment their skills...a useful primary). Because of this, a subclassed R, D, or P can pump 12 points into the weapon skill and go to town nearly as effectively as the main class itself. However, those skills can't perform all duties as well as the main class; without Expertise other characters have a hard time with E-management, without Mysticism characters can't access the Avatar forms or miss out on free energy again, and without Leadership many shouts and chants lose a lot of effect, not to mention become energy-intensive. So what you have from those characters is only ONE aspect of their character that can successfully be performed by an outside character; I can load up a decent spearchucker Rt/P, for instance, but there's no way I could do anything else without Leadership points. However, with a primary attribute with as useless an effect as Spawning Power, as long as the build doesn't focus directly on the few Spawning builds out there, a different character could easily pick it up. I've seen Restoration healers with both Elementalist and Necromancer primaries (they have great e-regen skills). A Channeling subbed class is viable, due to the location of good elites (DwG, OoS, SoS) actually IN the Channeling tree. Heck, as I've said before Rangers can get great benefit of our weapon spells, especially 'cause they can pump a Rune on Marksmanship and Barrage away. And so. Ritualists can viably take on ONE aspect of other classes (DPS) without their primary. Other characters can take MANY aspects of the Ritualist class (DPS, Healing) without their primary. That just presents a problem to me, in my eyes. There needs to be an incentive to actually play the Ritualist class, and not simply relegate us to a "Good Secondary Class". There needs to be some sort of e-management or bonus to our damage in the Primary attribute; the one we have is simply too narrow and as I've said before, is not necessary or even useful for all builds.
lightblade
Spawning's inheret effect may not be much, but the skills under the tree offers a lot.
Bargamer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oso Minar
Other characters can take MANY aspects of the Ritualist class (DPS, Healing) without their primary. |
Oso, I applaud you on a well-written post. The fact that Anet all but admits the former in a State of the Game article, the wiki entry on Spawning repeats both, and a casual scan of the PVE and PVP builds pretty much cements that you've got a point.
HOWEVER: If you ARE a Primary Rit, Spawning Power is a Attribute you want to put points in, (if not max, then at least close to it,) or none at all. Or you're a DPS build, of which there are plenty others, or a Resto/Healing Rit, which some argue has more raw healing than a Divine/Healing Monk-Primary. (Though I've yet to try it, as Monks have a tough job. Healbot comic, anyone?) Could it be more versitile? Sure. A lot of the suggestions in this and other threads have explored this topic. The closest that Rits get to full flexibility is Attuned was Songkai, and to a lesser degree, Renewing Memories. Do Rits get less love than the Core classes? You can't deny it. Is that ever going to change? Not a chance in hell.
The sad truth is, most Ritualist builds are defined by or invited for their secondaries, and most secondary Rits get most of our versatility without the taint of association, as they can easily switch when the novelty wears off, and pretend nothing ever happened. We got one week of glory when a bunch of Rits rioted through HA, but that will probably never happen again, and we're likely to be nerfed afterwards for our impertinence.
There are exceptions, of course. I run an effective Rt/Monk Attuned Resto build that can run no Monk spells, but if I didn't (falsely) switch my secondary, I'd have a hella time getting invited AS a Resto Rit.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Oso Minar
The fact is, while *some* builds benefit from Spawning Power, a VAST majority do not.
Which of five probable meanings do you mean by that? I don't want to offend you (and waste my time) by assuming one meaning, when you really mean another.
Edit: Found out another meaning. Responding as well to your last paragraph. The way I read the the State of the Game article, Anet wants to lock us in as Rit Lords or Spirit Spammers. Given that, we do have Energy Management in Spawning Power: Attuned, Boon of Creation, Renewing Memories, Reclaim Essence, etc. Yes, it's narrow. Yes, I do believe it's unfair. Part of the reason I even made the Minion Bomber build to buck this reputation. It took lots of creativity, testing, and endurance. Which is why it succeeds in PVE. Few thought it would work, and I experience a great sense of gratification every time some nay-sayer is proved wrong, or a new player decides to try my build. That's why I play Guild Wars.
frojack
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oso Minar
And that's exactly the problem.
Other classes have more to offer from those "other Ritualist builds blah blah" that you state. An E/Rt, although the spells don't hit quite as well, have much more staying power through the fights due to their huge Energy pools. Rangers and melee characters can get more out of our weapon skills because they can actually use Runes on the weapon's attribute (Not to mention Expertise, etc). The fact is, while *some* builds benefit from Spawning Power, a VAST majority do not. I have occasionally seen Rangers, Paragons, and Dervishes complain that because their weapons draw their major power off a single attribute (Warriors have Strength to augment their skills...a useful primary). Because of this, a subclassed R, D, or P can pump 12 points into the weapon skill and go to town nearly as effectively as the main class itself. However, those skills can't perform all duties as well as the main class; without Expertise other characters have a hard time with E-management, without Mysticism characters can't access the Avatar forms or miss out on free energy again, and without Leadership many shouts and chants lose a lot of effect, not to mention become energy-intensive. So what you have from those characters is only ONE aspect of their character that can successfully be performed by an outside character; I can load up a decent spearchucker Rt/P, for instance, but there's no way I could do anything else without Leadership points. However, with a primary attribute with as useless an effect as Spawning Power, as long as the build doesn't focus directly on the few Spawning builds out there, a different character could easily pick it up. I've seen Restoration healers with both Elementalist and Necromancer primaries (they have great e-regen skills). A Channeling subbed class is viable, due to the location of good elites (DwG, OoS, SoS) actually IN the Channeling tree. Heck, as I've said before Rangers can get great benefit of our weapon spells, especially 'cause they can pump a Rune on Marksmanship and Barrage away. And so. Ritualists can viably take on ONE aspect of other classes (DPS) without their primary. Other characters can take MANY aspects of the Ritualist class (DPS, Healing) without their primary. That just presents a problem to me, in my eyes. There needs to be an incentive to actually play the Ritualist class, and not simply relegate us to a "Good Secondary Class". There needs to be some sort of e-management or bonus to our damage in the Primary attribute; the one we have is simply too narrow and as I've said before, is not necessary or even useful for all builds. This is essentially the crux of the matter. Most (80%) of the skills in spawning I can live without. So in essence, the only consistent advantage of being a primary ritualist is the fact that you can go beyond 12 in your attributes. That and the use of ghost-forge armour... By the way, I missed your earlier post about accelerated spirit creation time. It seems most of us are on the same page. We just need to introduce Anet to the book it seems...
Terra Xin
Well as long as improvement is more than just a lousy +4% health for spirits, that currently has no inherent leveling of the spirit to provide armor. You can even convert it into an enchantment that does the same thing as the inherent Spawning Power, and it wont even be overpowered :S...
Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver
Quote: But would you consider the "not requiring of Spawning Power to make good builds" a good thing or a bad thing? Or like me do you feel there should always be a reason to use the primary attribute and that the primary attribute is there for a reason?
The good thing about Spawning Power is that Ritualists suffer the least if they dont invest points into their primary attribute, which allows them to spec higher into other attributes. The problem is that if a Ritualist does specify into Spawning power for the direct purposes of using the inherent benefits, that they will gain the least benefits compared with the other classes. The other thing I don't like about Spawning Power is that its got the feeling as though it's a 'Miscellaneous Attribute Line'. You have skills like Spirits Strength, and then you have Weapon energy management skills, anti-blind... a little diverse in some ways, none of the skills I mentioned reflect the use of +4% health towards spirits.
Pick Me
Attributes only?
I know this has been said before but let's look at this again: Strength: % of armor penetration Mesmer: Fast Casting Monk: added healing per monk spell on target ally Necromancer: energy gained per death (not own death) Elementalist: Max Energy Ranger: Energy reduction cost for non-spells Assassin: Energy gain on critical hits Ritualist: +% boost to created creature's health Dervish: +health & +energy whenever an enchantment is removed/ends on Dervish Paragon: +energy for everyone who will listen to the Paragon Warriors use Strength to reduce the amount of times they must use energy to defend/kill a target Mesmers use Fast Cast to reduce the amount wasted time to cast long casting time spells (like Ether Feast) Necromancers still wait for things to die (casts spells slowly, so wait times are still a drag). Monks must wait for allies to take a certain amount of damage before healing, else they over heal. Elementalists just takes more time to scream "my energy is 0 of 100". Rangers utilize Expertise to increase the number of energy attacks they can use before they run out of energy. Assassins either kill or get killed for staying in the fray too long. Energy regain only comes in face-to-face combat (dangerous). Ritualists use spawning to create healthier undead (minions/spirits), this means they last longer, so they don't have to waste energy as quickly to respawn them. Paragons must be heard by allies or energy management is basically 0. Dervish requires many enchantments on them in order to gain any energy back. If you look at the abilites of each attribute only, yes, Spawning is poor. But then again, look at a smiting monk with Divine Favor, DF is wasted. A Signet using Mesmer, FC is wasted. A non-enchanting Dervish is pretty much wasted with maxed out Mysticism. Or a non-shouting Paragon, Leadership is useless. People should stop just looking at the passive abilities of the attribute and also look at the skills in that attribute. So I'm fine with Spawning, even if I don't use spirits or mininons (yes, I'm a Rit/N).
Silent Elvin Ranger
You have apoint there, but its not entirely correct.
Devine Favor IS wasted on smiting, but thats 1 thing. Dervish is wasted with max mysticism and no enchants...but i should hope that all dervs use at least 1 enchant, for a vast majority of the skill are enchants. Paragon has mostly shouts, with some spear attacks etc., but the majority of paragons use shouts. Mesmers FC + sig = suck...but u dont use as many skills compared to spells. My point is: Sure all primaries can fail on a few things, they are not perfect, but what im saying is Spawning is basically saying "SPIRITS OR DIE!" (not die, but u dont get boost) Most primaries effect the MAJORITY of things for that class. But not spawning, spawning ONLY effects spirits (or minions if thats ur deal). Im saying it must effect all or most builds, because as stated, not all rits use spirits. In fact not many do, only spirit spammers. (yes u use 1 or 2 in a resto build, but still nothing to put a huge amount of points into Spawning) Oh and this is NOT about spawning skills (which r generelly good), its about the effect. I agree with the idea of effecting "spawning items, weapons, spirits". I think that weapon spells should last longer, you can hold items for longer, and spirits stay alive longer. I reccomend maybe 2% bonus per level of spawning. With this, even at 16 spawning, things like Weapon of Warding still won't be over powered (3 seconds longer is good, but not overpowering). I think this makes the ritualists primary more equivalent to other primaries. ~Silent
Evilsod
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pick Me
If you look at the abilites of each attribute only, yes, Spawning is poor. But then again, look at a smiting monk with Divine Favor, DF is wasted. A Signet using Mesmer, FC is wasted. A non-enchanting Dervish is pretty much wasted with maxed out Mysticism. Or a non-shouting Paragon, Leadership is useless.
Erm... Smiting/Protection. I ran it quite well during Prophecies with Zealots Fire. Now i have no need to run Divine Favour at all with smiting since i can spec Deadly Arts for Assassins Promise. But does it matter? I don't intend to use *any* skills from the Divine Favour line.
Signet Mesmers... that was the case. Now Fast Casting has skills to increase the cast time of signets too. But then again signet mesmers are almost completely and utterly useless (if you think you can its not better than a normal mesmer so just keep quiet...). But again, a Signet Mesmer would've had no reason to spec in there primary. Dervish's still have 4 regen, even without Mysticism. Of course with the high cost of there attack skills/enchantments Mysticism is needed. But yet again, if you don't spec Mysticism because you don't have enchantments if probably won't be using any skills from the attribute. As for Spawning Power... The single greatest energy management skill available to a Rit (Namely, Attuned was Songkai) is in that stat. Chances are you'll be using 1 or even 0 spirits but yet you still had to spec in it. Spawning Power is next to useless unless your running a very heavy Communing spirit spammer build, which has also been nerfed alot so is extremely energy intensive. You can try to pass off that Destruction needs all the health it can get... but since when? Draw Spirit or Swap are there to move it in when needed, the other major problem now. Rupture Soul is in this stat... which ironically puts all that extra health to no use what-so-ever as it instantly destroys the spirit but thankfully is an extremely powerful skill. The skills in this stat are the only reason i ever bother to run it anymore, for all intensive purposes its completely useless.
Eroth
I guess the use of Spawning is all up to the player. As you can see, everyone has mixed thoughts about it. Some don't. If it works for you then use it, if it doesn't then don't. Not much I can really say. Each side has it's strong points.
Terra Xin
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilsod
Erm... Smiting/Protection. I ran it quite well during Prophecies with Zealots Fire. Now i have no need to run Divine Favour at all with smiting since i can spec Deadly Arts for Assassins Promise. But does it matter? I don't intend to use *any* skills from the Divine Favour line.
Signet Mesmers... that was the case. Now Fast Casting has skills to increase the cast time of signets too. But then again signet mesmers are almost completely and utterly useless (if you think you can its not better than a normal mesmer so just keep quiet...). But again, a Signet Mesmer would've had no reason to spec in there primary. Dervish's still have 4 regen, even without Mysticism. Of course with the high cost of there attack skills/enchantments Mysticism is needed. But yet again, if you don't spec Mysticism because you don't have enchantments if probably won't be using any skills from the attribute. As for Spawning Power... The single greatest energy management skill available to a Rit (Namely, Attuned was Songkai) is in that stat. Chances are you'll be using 1 or even 0 spirits but yet you still had to spec in it. Spawning Power is next to useless unless your running a very heavy Communing spirit spammer build, which has also been nerfed alot so is extremely energy intensive. You can try to pass off that Destruction needs all the health it can get... but since when? Draw Spirit or Swap are there to move it in when needed, the other major problem now. Rupture Soul is in this stat... which ironically puts all that extra health to no use what-so-ever as it instantly destroys the spirit but thankfully is an extremely powerful skill. The skills in this stat are the only reason i ever bother to run it anymore, for all intensive purposes its completely useless. I can think of 4 skills in Spawning Power that instantly kill your spirits... maybe 5. Two of them are elites, anyway.
Oso Minar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eroth
I guess the use of Spawning is all up to the player. As you can see, everyone has mixed thoughts about it. Some don't. If it works for you then use it, if it doesn't then don't. Not much I can really say. Each side has it's strong points.
That's the PROBLEM, as I've been saying the whole time, haha!
I don't see very many Necromancers complaining that Soul Reaping doesn't have any place in their builds. I don't hear Elementalists complaining that they have a larger Energy pool to work with. I don't see Warriors complaining about the damage increase Strength gives them, no matter the weapon. Spawning Power, in its current form, is simply too narrow to encompass ALL aspects of Ritualist play. That's it, that's the only gripe that people have with it currently. It pigeonholes us into playing a certain style or two, and that makes me a sad panda. Frankly, I don't know why people are arguing so much. It's not like we're arguing against the current 4% boost. I actually think that's nice...IF you're playing with spirits or minions. However, for those of us who actually like the variety of other styles, the attribute is worthless! And it's just those few people who are content in their little hole who seem to want to argue. Change the attribute to also encompass other Ritualist styles, and you'll end all arguments on this issue. That's all.
Dr Strangelove
Spawning is like strength - awesome skills, piece of crap worthless effect. True, it may not have been the best game design to make a primary effect only one aspect of a character, but it's been balanced out a bit and doesn't feel too much like it needs to be changed.
Coloneh
I Like spawning. It makes necromancer MMs look even MORE stupid and useless.
Pick Me
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilsod
Erm... Smiting/Protection. I ran it quite well during Prophecies with Zealots Fire. Now i have no need to run Divine Favour at all with smiting since i can spec Deadly Arts for Assassins Promise. But does it matter? I don't intend to use *any* skills from the Divine Favour line.
Signet Mesmers... that was the case. Now Fast Casting has skills to increase the cast time of signets too. But then again signet mesmers are almost completely and utterly useless (if you think you can its not better than a normal mesmer so just keep quiet...). But again, a Signet Mesmer would've had no reason to spec in there primary. Dervish's still have 4 regen, even without Mysticism. Of course with the high cost of there attack skills/enchantments Mysticism is needed. But yet again, if you don't spec Mysticism because you don't have enchantments if probably won't be using any skills from the attribute. As for Spawning Power... The single greatest energy management skill available to a Rit (Namely, Attuned was Songkai) is in that stat. Chances are you'll be using 1 or even 0 spirits but yet you still had to spec in it. Spawning Power is next to useless unless your running a very heavy Communing spirit spammer build, which has also been nerfed alot so is extremely energy intensive. You can try to pass off that Destruction needs all the health it can get... but since when? Draw Spirit or Swap are there to move it in when needed, the other major problem now. Rupture Soul is in this stat... which ironically puts all that extra health to no use what-so-ever as it instantly destroys the spirit but thankfully is an extremely powerful skill. The skills in this stat are the only reason i ever bother to run it anymore, for all intensive purposes its completely useless. Honestly, I fee the same way with Strength. If I choose to have skills in Strength, then I'll boost it, if I have 0 skills in strength, then I don't invest heavily in it. If you have attributes but no skills, how much of a point is it to invest heavily in it (Soul Reaping and Energy Storage excluded)? Even FC & Expertise people don't max out (due to the diminishing of returns). Example: A Warrior who plans only to run won't care about the % armor penetration. Soul Reaping was the only passive attribute that you would put points into because of its abilities. Not for any skill, because in Prophecies, there were no skills. FC had Mantra of Recovery, but even then no one maxes it out. Yes, I agree that as an attribute by itself, it is the worst. But lets look at the reason for its existance. Strength - adds damage (simple enough right?) Fast Casting - spells get unleashed faster Energy Storage - increased maxed energy Critical Strike - increases chances of getting a Critical Strike (will wonders never cease) Soul Reaping - gaining energy for the souls released from this world Expertise - lower energy costs because Rangers knows how to be more efficient with skills (they are experts) Divine Favor - additional Healing derived from Dwayna whenever a Monk spell is used on an ally Spawning - added health to anything "summoned/spawned/created" by the ritualist Leadership - energy gained by allies who hear the shouts/chants made by the inspiring leader/Paragon Mysticism - energy and health gained whenever an enchantment is removed/ended on the Dervish. Hmmm... not sure about this one. I'm guessing that is how the developers did the passive bonuses for these attributes. Bargamer
Good points, Pick Me and Oso. I guess if Anet really wanted a flexible jack-of-all-trades Profession, their Primary could be more broad and encompassing. I mean, usually, if someone wanted to play around with undead, they'd either make a Necro or a Ranger. Ritualist is kind of a last-pick.
kylelk05
spawning power is actually important if you're using attuned was songkai for restoration builds and for defensive spirits. why? well, if you have barely any points in spawning power then your spirits are going to die VERY fast. theyre going to need health....
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