Guild Banking Services

I've been curious to find out if any other guilds out there have a guild bank setup. In my guild, New found Destiny, I am the officer in charge of a bank (my storage account as it were) that provides loan services to members of the guild. I was curious to see if anyone else had implemented a similar idea in the guild. This is my fourth iteration of a guild bank (I think I've finally worked out the kinks), and it seems to be helpful to many of the players in my guild. So GWGuru, what are your thoughts on this? I can make details of how our guild's banking system works if anyone is interested.

I was once in a guild that did that for materials. I dont really see that anymore but i guess ya gotta trust the person alot to trust with money.

Uummmm I just give my guildies gold/mats weapons etc whenever they need or want really. My guild is very generous with each other and no one ever expects to be repaid lol. We do have a "communal" account we use to store overflow materials etc that are up for grabs, is that what you mean?

yeah I would be interested to know how long someone has to be in your guild inorder to recieve a loan...surely you dont allow them cash or loot upon joining. Also do you have them put up some type of collateral...and how do u keep track of it...in a notepad outside of the game i would guess...also do u charge interest or just take donations from players to keep a cash flow...while you idea seems to be a good one...how exactly is it implemented...would be nice if there was some sort of "tythe" (spelling) system in GW where guild members automatically give 3-5% of any gold drops they pick up into a guild bank...

This is the proposal I wrote up for our guild leader when I first proposed this idea. It goes into detail of how our bank operates.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

The New Found Destiny Credit Union

Goal: Provide member of New Found Destiny a place where they can donate funds and in times of need, take out loans.

Entrance Procedures: In order for a member of the guild to become a member of NFDCU, they must have been active in the guild for a period no less than one week. After this time, they may pay an account activation fee of 1000 gold to become an introductory member.

Summary of Services:

1. Deposits: Members of NFDCU can make deposits of any amount in 1000 gold increments. All deposits will be recorded and will be taken into consideration when a member applies for a loan. These deposits will allow the bank to loan out money to its members but the bank will not function in the role of a savings account. Any funds granted to a member will be in the form of a loan.

2. Loans: After activating their account, members will be eligible to petition for a loan. The members past history with the bank, including amounts deposited, previous loan history, whether previous loans were paid back within the specified time, etc., will be considered as well as the amount being requested and the current balance of the bank’s vault. Upon the granting of a loan, the recipient will have a specific time in which to repay the loan to the bank else they suffer an increase in their interest rate. The time frame in which a member has to repay a loan will be determined during the petition process. Loans paid back ahead of schedule will cause the bank to look more favorably upon the member in the future when they request a loan. All loans must be paid back at one time, and a person cannot take more than one loan out at time. Any exceptions to these rules will have to be discussed with your local NFDCU representative as they are very inflexible.

3. Psychological Help: Your NFDCU representative will be available from time to time to listen to you rant about whatever. Feel free to contact him or her at any time.

Member Levels:

1. Introductory Member – A person just joining the bank will be classified as an introductory member. Introductory members have access to all services NFDCU provides. However, they will be restricted to a maximum loan size of 10000 gold. Also, all loans taken out by an introductory member will be subject to a 15% interest rate of the total loan amount. For example, an introductory member taking out 5000 gold will be required to pay back 5750 gold to the bank. Interest made off of loans will allow the bank to loan out more money to more people in the future.

2. Valued Member – In order for a member to reach valued member status, they must have been active with the bank for a minimum period of two weeks and completed five loan transactions and made at least one deposit. Valued members’ maximum loan size is increased to 25000 gold and their loan interest rate is decreased to 10%

3. Premium Member – A member who has completed fifteen loan transactions and made at least five deposits will be recognized as a premium member. Premium members do not have a maximum loan size and their interest rate is reduced to 5%. Premium members will also receive the gift of one free cookie for their continued business with the bank.

Late Fees: A member who is late in repaying their loan to the bank will suffer a 2% increase to their current interest rate on their loan for everyday it is late. This increase will be capped off at 20%. For example, if an introductory member took out a loan of 1000 gold, they would normally be required to pay back 1150 gold to the bank. However, if they are 5 days late in repaying their loan, they will be required to pay back 1250 gold.

Yeah ... I misunderstood I think. I read the original post as a bank system to loan to guild just to be helpful. While it may be helpful to your guildies, it is also very expensive to them and thereby quite profitable to you. Those interest rates are extremely high, and the "deposits" are not deposits since they are, as you said, "not a savings account". While you may spend some of your time on the bookkeeping end, you are being very well paid lol.

Not needed for GW imo.
- The only things needed are gold + some materials
- - Gold is something you get yourself. if you can't get it and need a loan, then you probably won't be able to pay off the debt
- - materials are either too common to store or too expensive

But this is all opinion

So.... why would anyone deposit into your bank with no savings? Where's all the interest going, to the officers?

The interest rate doesn't go to me. It goes to the bank to help fund future loans. I think that's in there somewhere.

It will all end in tears.

Children play the game and I find it highly unethical to introduce them to interest and the contract they have entered into. Imagine a parent finds out their child is falling behind in school to farm for gold to pay back a loan he/she took out otherwise they will face repercussions.

I am sure Anet thrown upon the whole "interest rate" thing.

Someone offered a similar service on Guru and it got closed down due to the whole "interest rate" issue.

Im pretty disgusted by the whole thing considering alot of under 18s play.

o.O

I think some people may be misunderstanding what this bank does. This bank profits no one in the guild, it is offered as a free service, no one is charged anything. The bank is completely funded by donations, not deposits. Older, more wealthy members of the guild give money to this particular officer in order to give the newer players the ability to have a quick source of cash if they need it.

Loan returns are never shorter then a week, and the only reason it has an interest applied is to keep funds in the bank so that future loans to more players can be available.

This game is addicting enough as it is to the point that blaming a benign interest rate on fake currency in a fake world for consuming time and corrupting ideals is just ridiculous.

Here is the just of it: It is a collective pool of guild funds managed by one trustworthy officer in order to help out new players, it has a manageable system in place to give it presence and an ability to sustain itself. Keep your sheltered opinions to yourself unless you have something worthwhile to offer.

I'm not sure you understand what is going on here. Our guild is composed of serious players, the youngest of which is 14 years of age. We have our own forums set up and communicate frequently on teamspeak. We know each other pretty well, and when it came to the question of forming a bank for everyone's benefit, no one was in opposition.

If you think that we are in the business of extorting in game money from members of our guild, you are entirely off-base and wrong in your assumption that we are out to harm people. In fact, the bank has been receiving about as many donations for loan use as it has been giving loans out.

All of the records have been kept meticulously and in any event that the bank closes, all money will be returned to those members that donated and took loans that generated interest.

K, here are some quote from GWG staff: -

The one person offering the thread even admits there's a good chance he'll get scammed. If people loan out money then that's their problem. But would this person be considered a "loan shark"? Since loan sharking is illegal(in the US at least I think), we may want to look into how this would reflect on our forums. Fact is, I have no problem with it, but would it be considered an "illegal" act to loan out money and ask for an absurd amount of intrest? Obviously in game this is just the seller giving gold to the buyer, and the buyer doing the same at a later date, so neither is breaking the EULA(I think). But if the US goverment considers this type of thing illegal, then shouldn't we too?

I am thinking about it right now. Here are some thoughts that I have on the matter, I will probably keep editing a bit.

Usury - Legal concept referring to interest in excess of a legal maximum rate charged to a borrower for using financial resources. In the US, maximum annual interest rates vary by state but typically range from 10-20%.

Charging 15% per week is clearly excessive. Without compounding interest, 15% per week amount to 780% per year. In other words, based on that interest, 100 gold loaned would require a repayment of 100 gold + 780 gold interest in a year.

Such offers are unsuitable for minors and consequently the site.

If we are willing to allow such service offers, we should require maximum interest rates per time period and maximum total interest rates (e.g. even if you cannot pay back for any time period, the total interest on the loan must not exceed 20% --> if you loan 100 gold, you will never pay more than 120 gold to pay off the loan, even if your repayment occurs after the agreed upon time).

It cannot be that we allow children to become financially enslaved for eternity.

Please not red highlight on maximum % interest rates allowed under us law.

No I wont keep my opinions to myself. And no they are not sheltered. I am still 100% against any form of loaning service in a game where unders 18s play.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I understand that you may mean well but I really dont think it is a good idea. I have seen such ideas in the past fail drastically where people thought they could trust others.

If the bank persons account got hacked and he lost all your gold what would happen? would you believe it happened?

what if someone genuinely couldnt pay back a large loan due to say his parents banning him from playing gw?

**Reads Herbalizer's above post ^^ and applauds

Usury anyone?

And while I read what HardWonFame said regarding these being donations, the op did call them "deposits" so you can't really blame us for misunderstanding. The question I have is this:

If this is about wealthy guildies helping newer guildies...why can't they just give it to them?

You call it "fake currency in a fake world", so why not use it to help your friends? I am in the wealthier portion of gw, and freely give gold etc to my guildies because after all what the hell else am I gonna do with it?

Well then, what is the whole faction farming thing incorporated into many guilds. Doesn't the game itself charge a form of "reverse interest" by taking away 10% of your faction everyday? Aren't a number of guilds requiring members to faction farm and contribute? Do you think possibly some people might be pressured to faction farm to the point of being threatened with being kicked out of the guild? Skipping out on doing real world activities so they can get back into good graces with their guild?

The whole concept is already in there, if you think about it. It's just backwards.

To answer your question, the reason for the bank was to make it easier for the wealthy guildies to do just that. The fact that it sounds official was mostly for the amusement of our guild leader. All of this misunderstanding is very disconcerting for myself. I am willing to address any further questions or concerns that maybe out there. More from me later though.

utterly and wholsomely pwnd

Join guild> take 10K loan > leave guild.

I dont know why people leave themselves open to such blatant opportunities to be ripped off. Guild banks are stupid, no one is guarenteed 100% trustworthy when you have no way of tracing them.
Exactly how do you plan to enforce the loan and interest repayment? Kick from the guild if they dont repay? Oh noes! Guildless but 10k better off.

Imo this is why GW doesnt have guild storage, I know Gaile mentioned it like once (maybe she was drunk) and then hasn't said a word since. Why do you think that is?

p.s Can i join your guild?

You forgot the wait one week part before you can take out a loan or even join the bank for that matter. Plus you have to pay 1k to become a member. So you would only get 9k. We try not to make it too easy to rip the bank off.

Truth is, if someone can't or won't pay repay their loan, they don't have to.

Another downfall i thought of was the issue of kicking people, if a player acts like a jerk or commits kick worthy offences but has taken out a large loan what do you do?

allow him to stay in guild to get gold back? or kick him and lose gold you lent him?

You can only trust people over the internet so much. I was in a popular guild, supposedly based on trustworthiness. One of the more respected members turned out to be a cheat, liar and thief. All in all, he got six accounts banned.

Why have a guild bank, when gold is mostly irrelevant in GW. The "basic" items you need (any max armor, any max damage weapon, id kit) are incredibly cheap in GW. All you need money for is vanity items like mini-pets, good looking armor, etc.

A loan only makes sense if getting the loan helps you advance at the game faster, but it doesnt. It only lets people get vanity items earlier.

- Xeeron

PS: @Herbalizer: I'd much prefer my children to get their first experience with loan sharks at the age of 13 here (where defaulting is extremely easy and doesnt carry negative consequenses) than at the age of 19 in some dark alley. Interest is a fact of life, the earlier you understand how it works, the better.

If someone has committed act that is worthy of kicking, then they are kicked regardless of how much money they owe the bank. If the bank loses money so be it. I'm not going to lose sleep over it.

In many instances, loans from the bank have been to fund green items, 15k armor, or the like. Several of our newer players have used loans to help pay for Droks armor (or equivalents). These are just some examples, but you are right that the bank is most often used to get vanity items. Essentially, the bank is designed for the casual player that wants to get some nicer stuff, whether they be a new Guild Wars player or a veteran who doesn't feel like spending a couple weeks making 15k.

I see no need for a guild bank personally, but if you're going to do it, I would suggest you protect yourselves just as real banks do, with collateral. For example, maybe allow loans up to a small amount (probably 5-10k) without collateral, but anything larger would require the player to deposit something of value with the "bank" that he/she would not get back until the loan was paid off in full. That way you can protect yourself and impart some additional real-life lessons at the same time. I'd imagine good collateral items would be minipets, dyes, ectos and other rare mats, etc. -- things they don't need to make money (let them keep their armor & weapons) but you could re-sell to make the bank's money back.

lol, after its just 10k, I allways loan people amounts of 1-15k and rarely expect it to return, sometimes it does, if not owell, i have helped someone...I will however instantly kick beggars from the guild, Our alliance has between myself and one of the [RPG] founders around 1000-6000 of all common mats and 100-300 of the rares(bareing ectos-rubys-etc.) we regularly found new armor for new players and sometimes 3-4 months down the road they pay us back. So good luck with your guild bank and Have fun

Emmm, I'm pretty sure you cannot argue usury when the currency you're talking about isn't legal tender. The fact is that gold in GW is just as valuible as monopoly money. If you're playing monopoly you might lend some money to someone at 25% interest. I'm pretty sure they wont get the feds to come bust your a@@. And if they did, i wonder what the police would say

I'm in the "I don't really see the need for it" camp. If someone in your guild needs money for something, can they not just ask one of your more wealthy officers directly?

The whole idea of a loan doesn't really help either. For example, I would only borrow 10k if I didn't already have the 10k. So now I get my shiny new item sooner than I normally would have, but now I am forced to grind my butt off to repay the loan. On top of that, I have to pay interest. Just takes the fun out of it.

In my guild, we're all fairly well off, but we've gotten some newer members of late. We just give them decent greens and such so they are well equipped. Also, we'll give them materials for armor if needed. Most of us have so many mules with materials and random items, it's no sweat. I couldn't imagine asking someone to repay the "loan" though.

I don't think it's usury... according to the description, the interest rates are not really rates -- they are fixed.. if you borrow 1000 gold, the most you will have to pay back is 1200 gold if you are late in your payments -- that's how I read the description.

Maybe I missed it, but, how long does said member have to pay back the loan?

They have as long as they think they need (within reason of course) to repay the loan. I ask them how much time they need to remake the money when they take the loan out.

We have a guild storage account. All officers within trust have access to it. It holds various materials and runes. Where money is concerned, I loan as much as I think the person is trustworthy enough for. If I think the person likely wont give it back then I do not loan over 20k because it's more than likely a sunk cost.
I never charge interest I just ask that they return the favor when someone is in need. There is usually never a time limit on payback and most of what I loan is forgotten over time so its nice when one of my guildies comes up to me 2mths later and goes "Oh hey I finally have enough to pay you back!"
Runes and materials are not asked for, but they are excess if someone doesn't mind handing them over. They are used to help less fortunate guildies or on occassion random people who cannot afford to make their armor and so forth.
In our guild you get at least as much as you give usually more and I make sure of that.

These rates are better than what most credit card companies will offer you, since the interest isn't monthly or compounded. Any 18 year old can go get himself a visa, mastercard, amex, etc., and start racking up the debt, and interest rates go from 0% (special offer!) to 30% (for people who forgot to pay the minimum).

Why forbid an underage kid from taking out a loan in guild wars fake money? Build up good habits early, so that when you're finally dealing with real money your credit cards are doing you a service instead of the reverse.

The people who complain the most about usury are the ones who've defaulted on their loans...or who want a good excuse to default.

The only reason that our guild uses this bank system instead of a free communal pot is due to the large number of mid-range players in the guild. We have a few wealthy members, but not enough to just randomly give away what everyone needs.

The largest advantage of the system is that it is self-sustaining, it is always there and guild members can always draw from it whenever they need to afford something on the spot, buy someone a last minute winter's day gift (secret Santa), afford a few more expensive materials for armor or whatever comes up.

Borrowing something is always a trade-off of "do I get it now and pay it off later, or do I wait until I can afford it myself?"

Taking out loans from our guild bank is done mostly by the mid-range players, those with a few level 20's, who have not done much farming and are working on new builds, ascended armor, and funding their own new characters with higher level armor at low levels.

A guild bank probably does not work well in quite a few situations, and giving someone what they need is probably better, but why give something away when you can build trust in someone and possibly teach them something by setting up a trust-based institution like this?

My Guild doesn't allow selling to guildmates - one of the reasons I like it.
There's lots of people willing to give you stuff and likewise you feel good when you give stuff away.

Guild bank - don't need one....

I have a character in my account that holds all the dyes, with the exception of white, silver, and black. Any member who has donated can ask for dye when they want to test/preview/experiment/ actually dye their armors. Thats... as far as it goes.

I think this is a great idea for those who may have a guild with personal friends or trustworthy members. My guild doesn't have an official system, but it is small and we help each other out when we can.

As for the whole argument on kids under 18 being subjected to this, I don't think this is a bad thing to be exposed to at all. If anything, this is something they could use as a learning experience. Set aside by individual donations, interest would allow the guild to give out more money (this is how banks "create" money). If this were distribution of porn or something, I could totally understand the whole "under 18" thing. And besides, who knows if they have age requirements.

The only thing I did somewhat agree with is if there were time constraints and a kid had to pay back his loan and farmed instead of doing his homework, that could cause some issues. But since the OP said there is not, this isn't really a big deal.

Real life friends it would work and would be fine. However, it is an awful idea for anything other than real life friends. Please see this: -

People who we were friends with from September 2005 - December 2006. Pretty long time huh? These people who everyone trusted so much people posted comments like, "he is so trustworthy I let him use my account etc". Millions of gold was entrusted to them. Seem like pretty trustworthy people huh? Fastforward to December 2006 turns out they broke the eula with ban worthy offences several hundred times, as Hockster said 6 accounts banned, accounts hacked in revenge, guild breaking up etc. Ive seen too many people screwed over by apparent long term close friends.

Could you please link to where it says the under 18s of the guild would not farm to repay debt which could lead to not doing homework etc. As all I have seen is a statement saying there are players as young as 14 in the guild.

I have nothing against the guild or players I just think the whole bank thing is a bad idea. I cant see why people couldnt just save for something.... At the end of the day I think it is better to make the guildies save for stuff than there be risk of big e-drama. ive experienced more than enough e-drama and it is really something you dont want occuring in a guild as it can destroy it

As long as it doesn't do hard by others and contravenes any Human Rights let people be with whatever system they have.

Theres to many double standards there are people here when someone says ANet sucks for nerfing they reply back its the metagame get on with it. Same case applies here if two parties are willing and understand and there are pretty much no repuccussions (sic) from what I can read so be it let them be.

I totally see where you're coming from but I just don't believe it's as bad as you make it. I don't think the OP expects that this would work for all guilds, but that he is just sharing an idea. I 100% percent respect your opinion and everything you do for the GW community, but what I meant was since there are no time constraints, the kid in question may not have to farm his night away instead of doing homework.

I know what it's like to have a guild wrecked apart by some douche bags who look to screw everyone over, but if you have a good and close-knit guild, this is a good idea. I don't think every guild should implement this and should only do it if they feel it is appropriate.

I agree with many of the concerns brought up in this thread in response to our guild banking system, but I fail to understand the concern over farming in order to pay off a loan.

There have got to be at least a dozen better reason to play guild wars and neglect homework then paying off a guild loan. Anyone who takes out a loan has no real commitment to pay it off, the OP suggests that they pay it back in a week or two with a single interest amount added. The OP has said on a few accounts that if someone takes advantage of the system and does not pay the loan back he will not really care.

This is a loose system, no real pressure applied to those who take out loans, only their own moral convictions as they apply to this virtual world. So far we have not had a single person skip out on a loan, with a few dozen loans taken out, I consider that to be pretty encouraging.