Why do people fear the introduction of new classes?

Because Arenanet has proven the only way they know how to get people to be interested in in stuff is to make it very powerful at release, thus new classes break PvP for quite a while (Ritual Lord Ritualists, Avatar of Grenth, Paragons in general, though Assassins weren't that bad at release, they were pretty underpowered).

I think some of the fear also comes from too much choice. You have 8 slots to fill in a party, with 10 classes. You need a healer, so do you take a Monk or a Ritualist? Okay, you take a Rit. Unfortunately, you thought the Rit knew how to play a Resto build, but turns out he's only ever played Spirit Spam until now. Not only do you have to filter classes, you have to filter the players that play those classes. Too much choice.

About individual skills for PvE and PvP, I wrote about long time ago in this forum. Anyway, it's seem Arenanet is starting to make that, if the news about Ch4 are true (50 skills for PvE only)

As much as new classes are fun to explore (And exploit for some), it would put the game in more of a mess than it's already in.

However the latest update is a shining light of hope.

Because Anet doesn't seem to think about balance and imbalance when they create new classes and concepts for these classes. At the moment, shadowstepping is one of the most broken things going in PVP. Before it was Avatars, Rit Lord Ritualists, the Paragon as a whole, theres a few others that were broken down to skill and not primarily the class themselves. The problem becomes, while the idea looks great on paper, that it isnt feesable as an in-game concept.

I dunno. It's not my job to balance the game, so I'm not going to say that ANet shouldn't add more professions because Izzy's job would get too hard. (*I* have faith in you, man.) Even so, the game is more balanced than people care to realize or understand: just because an Assassin can 1v1 certain Mesmer builds of mine doesn't mean that Assassins are fundamentally more overpowered than Mesmers. This balance concept extends even to the 8v8 level.

Sure, there are combinations of skills that end up being more synergistic than others - that's the whole point of the game: to find the skill combinations that allow victory in PvP and PvE. You only hit "broken" when a skill or skill combo achieves victory with no reasonable counter.

There are, at current, a lot of counters. I don't think two new professions would really throw the game out of whack. In all reality, it could mean that there are new and exciting ways to add more counters to the game (ie: a way to hinder shadowstepping - though there already are a few, they're just not in wide use).

Two new professions every release, for me, adds a lot of charm and diversity to the game. I get very excited primarily to see what cool classes I will be playing. I would be quite disappointed if Ch. 4 had no new professions whatsoever.

If it doesn't have two new professions, hopefully we still get two more slots. That means I can finally make a Mesmer and Elementalist!

I don't know, I think 10 professions is plenty of variety. I'm not sure that they can come up with 2 more professions that don't overlap too closely what we already have.

I'd rather they keep adding depth to the existing 10, instead of spreading things too thin. The developers' resources are finite, and the more professions there are, the fewer skills, armors, and other goodies each profession gets with each expansion. (Assuming the rumors are wrong, and we will have more than 1 more GW expansion ever.)

Also, I don't want to make any more characters. I feel like I'm at my limit with 8, so any new professions are going to be wasted on me anyways.

I've always been more of a core person has to preferring the the original 6 classes and balancing groups out during mission.I would still say some classes are still over powered like the Derv is still.I won't say how but they shouldn't be able to do a certian run.

There is nothing in _principle_ that makes new classes and skills a problem. There is no reason they can't be introduced properly so that they are interesting and balanced. The problem is the track record of the designers and testers up to this point, whatever reasons there are for this happening. Speaking for its effect on PvP: In Factions Rits were absolutely stupid and made games worse and were an annoying defensive nightmare while assassins were underpowered for the most part except in their roll as gankers. The other problem is that the characters were extremely one dimensional. The core classes were really flexible and could be used in a variety of ways.Sins basically could gank, Rits could spam spirits. Many moons later Sins are still one dimensional and rits, in an attempt to make use of their other non-spirit skills, had the channeling line broken in half so that yet another nerf was recently required to fix it. Nightfall was worse in terms of the new classes. Paragons came in insanely overpowered and have been nerfed over and over, even after the final skill balance weekend. Their shouts were nuts and akin to enchantments that couldn't be removed (another problem with Rits and weapons). Dervish forms were busted and required reworking as well. But again, there was no subtly or flexibity in these classes. Instead of introducing interesting skills that were flexible and took thought to use in various interesting and diverse ways they introduced nutso skills that slapped you upside of the head and screamed I'm broken use me like X.

All of this has played a role in eroding the PvP player base. I'd love to see new classes if they were interesting flexible and not broken in half, but given the track record I don't know if there is the willpower/personpower to do so.

Flexibility isn't really the name of the game in Guild Wars. When new skills are introduced, they will do one of two net things to the game:

1. They will introduce more power to some task.
2. It will do nothing.

As Extend Conditions has shown us: the power does creep both ways, but the only that matters in constructed play is how it goes UP.

Now if there were some mode where the skills you had available were randomized, that would make the 9/10 of the dross actually RELEVANT to Guild Wars.

Saying Assassins are one dimensional is kind of blah-blah. They can offspike, and they have some hAxes for degen team builds. Other guys:

Bow Rangers: How many of them don't carry Distracting Shot and Savage Shot?

All classes suffer from "one dimensionalness" to a degree. A warrior that isn't dealing damage or a Prophecies runner? Pffft times two.

Having a billion skills doesn't mean having a billion choices.

New classes don't mess anything up to a higher degree than new skills. Just because Shelter and Recuperation were extremely good defensive skills, doesn't mean the 5-energy Blinding Surge didn't mess things up even worse.

Oh... I guess the reason people hate new classes is they hate change. Same reason they hate the noifs and the buffs and thinking and stuff.

No people don't hate new classes because they hate change...Again, I and many others would like new classes if they were properly made coming in.
Assassins are very one dimensional and as a primary class never get used for anything but insta-kill spikers who make use of the best chain possible given the skill set at a given time. Rits spirit spam was defensivly overpowered ruined games for a long time when factions came out.

As to core classes, Rangers as a class have been pretty flexible. Being used defensively (trappers), disruption toons (sav/dist etc), spike toons (r-spike), pressure toons (apply, barbed, burning), gankers (burning, broad head), Runners (crip shots), Even melee (thumpers of various historical flavors. This is a lot more diversity than assassins have ever seen. Warriors Are damage dealers, but they different ways in which you can deal damage with them, and the different roles they can play in builds make them waaay more versitile than any other melee classes since introduced ever were.

I have to agree with you that the problem is not just with new classes but new skills generally, but this doesn't mean the classes and their abilities weren't rediculous and far more problematic when introduced than the core characters which by the time of factions were quite solid imo. You can't seriously think that paragons, dervishes and rits as they were introduced were ok. Come on...

I don't want new classess simply because I feel obliged to try out the new classes, which means my other characters get neglected. I simply have too many characters. My paragon is still level 11 :S

I don't nessessarily fear new classes as I fear what Anet will do to nerf it as soon as I start to enjoy using it like my Ritualist and Paragon. Both the Paragon and Ritualist were at one time my favorites, now I hate playing them

The problem is that people want gimmicks. People want to see crazy shit that blows stuff up good even if its bad for the game. People will pay for gimmicks but in the end it can't happen or it will ruin the game on either side of the player divide.

Introduction of new classes to play with is good because it freshens the game. The only problem is that there seems to be no balancing done/the balance ain't that satisfactory with the new classes before they are released. I have observed that these new classes are made to be so good and after giving them a week or three of exposure, they are nerfed.

Yeah, it would be great to have new classes and reams of new skills if I could believe that it would be done properly. The problem is the track record on that account is bad.

If the introduction of new classes stopped following this progression,

(Testing Weekend) Uber Broken > Release (Really Broken) > (Nerf 1) Pretty Broken >...>(Nerf n) Sorta fixed, ultimately overkilled perhaps.

life would be good. You would stop frustrating PvP players with another stupid ladder season with a new classes release. You would also not piss off PvE players who get used to powerful skills only to see they ripped away over and over.

New classes and skills, enticing and a breath of fresh air. New classes and skills that are properly balanced from the start, priceless. (or at least worth a small monthly fee....)

He was talking specifically about when the classes were released, not the changes they've accumulated since then.

I actually like the new classes. If you don't want to be them, then don't.

And there seems to be alot of negative words about the assassin floating around, the funny thing being that some say they're rubbish and some some that they're too good... Why don't people moan about the mesmer? They're not that good in PvE but they can rule in PvP, depending on what you're targeting.

I think you're missing the point. The issue of balance, which is the main reason why people object to the addition of new classes given ANets track record with them, isn't an issue of personal choice. If I choose not to run a class or use skills that are clearly overpowered when it is introduced that isn't going to stop some other guild from running it because of the power level (see grenths dervishes, searing, discord, ritspike, spiritspam, paragon energy and defensive boosts, etc etc etc). It has nothing to do with my own like or dislike of the class or the idea of the class, it has everything to do with the effect these classes have on the game.

Assassins where rather underpowered when they came in, and they were a bit one dimensional. Over time they were buffed more and more until suddenly you have the shadow prison burst sins who were insane insta killers. But regardless, they remained rather one dimensional. I'm not sure I understand about the moaning about mesmers...they had some overpowered things when nightfall came out but they have always been, imo, a great class in PvP. I've never really played with them in PvE much, but from screwing around with people in the guild with mesmers in some high level areas of the game they proved pretty successful.

So after 60 odd posts the reasons seem to be

1) They mess up PVP because they aren't perfectly balanced
2) They mess up my life because I have to play all the characters and I don't have enough time (A simple answer for that is not buying the expansion, that's like complaining that your ice cream is too yummy because it makes you want more)
3) They would be OK if ANET would only consider the infinite variety that ensues when 1,000s of players make builds from 100's of choices and go at each other
4) New professions are just useless additions to all the good "Old-School" professions from back in the day before all these youngins came around wantin to be sins and dervs
5) New professions make the game too complicated by adding too many variables
6) New professions make the game too simple because the characters have to be so one-dimensional
7) New professions might mess up the excellent builds and strategies I have currently established
8) More professions are good, they're fun. They give some new life to my video GAME.

1) I've read this wording of the problem in many posts not just in this thread. Saying "its not perfectly balanced" is really misleading and undermines the actual degree to which things were screwed up. It wasn't matter of, "well this one thing was a little off so I throw my arms up in dispair cause I'm looking for perfection". It was, "this is really screwed up and although I can't reasonably expect perfect balance there is no way these professions and skills should have made it off the production line".

3) Once again this simply whitewashes things. The problem classes and skills didn't arise out of some obscure subtle skill combinations but were balatant and obvious smack you in the face problems that should have been easily caught had there been any adequate testing or feedback given prior to release. I'd love new classes that didn't contain BLATANT issues that would be bad for the game.

6) No, they don't make the game to simple. The classes themselves simply failed to have any real flexibility and were in general one dimensional. This isn't as serious of a problem imo.

8) Again new proffesions could be good fun. Nothing in principle bad about them. Its the track record that is bad. ALSO, we _need_ to start thinking about other ways to improve the actual content of this game PvEwise and PvPwise beyond the simple addition of classes. Nightfall and factions were not innovative in any meaningful way. They basically refried the same formula and the "new" part was mashing in some new classes and skills to the mixture. There are other ways that new and fresh content can be added and I think we need to look at those. Something will increase playability, world depth, and openendedness. So instead of talking about classes can we not brainstorm about other means of adding new content to this game?

Pffft, yeah. More skill slots. A higher degree of skill tiers beyond "normal" and "elite".

Also: equipment choices that are more interesting.

STUFF TO DO THAT ISN'T COMBAT.

But that isn't Guildwars.

lol

Its too bad, cause that sounds interesting

What do you mean, paragons are extremely underpowered, they have had many nerfs since they were released.

Paragons are not underpowered.

You know what I hate the most about the Dervish and Paragon? Almost all of their armor sets look the same. So generic.

Saying Ritualists are useless in PvE is hilarious. It's the same as saying a couple Barrages that do an extra 150 damage for 5 energy is useless. Channeling has the best front-loaded DPS in the PvE game currently.

Spears don't have the area options other weapons do, so use a different weapon as a Paragon when in PvE. Leadership is a magical thing. It isn't near as cheesy as Soul Reaping, but then again nothing else in the game is.

the problem with new classes isn't pve. You could stick a warrior/necromancer with animate flesh golem, animate bone fiend and blood of the master in pve and still suffice (hell, many do). The problem comes from the way these new classes have to find something unique to do and still stay balanced. this is difficult enough to accomplish in a game with the new skills for core classes. The problem, for example.. with a paragon, say... is that if you want straight up scary damage, you'd go for a warrior. If you wanted pure defense, you'd stick in an ele or another monk perhaps. But here, you have this frontline-ish character that stays in the midline, but has like a gazillion armor and so isn't normal midline. Similarly, stuff like assassin shadowstepping. That one concept line, which is awesome in its own right... has many problems because it eliminates one of the core aspects of this game: positioning. If you can just shadow step to your target, its not necessary to position for an adren spike, etc. Next problem with new classes, is that in making them good to go with core classes and viable, these classes get overpowered game variants. Examples are non-removable shouts and chants and weapon spells. These things have no real good removal counters. Instead, people are left relying on shutdown (meaning build uniformity [bad]) or just living with it (also not good). Given, Anet is doing a lot to correctly balance a lot of these problems. However, the problem itself is introduced by having these new classes and all this possibility and potential to abuse that possibility.

So many in game fear new classes etc , because they fear their lil empire will topple and they will no longer feel superior. 20 years from now there will no doubt be a medical diagnosis stemming from those now addicted to online games. Too many build a world and set themselves up as lil tin gods. They live, eat and sleep the game, it is all they can talk about and discuss happenings in game as if they were real.

*goes off to play game, getting the shakes being out for so long*

The biggest thing to consider is that this whole thing is still a work in progress. Because of the evolving nature of the two sides of the coin that is Guild Wars - PvE and PvP - ArenaNet has only had two expansion releases to consider. Two!

Considering they had no info going into Factions and only a little bit going into Nightfall, I think they might now have a better idea for where they want to go regarding how to implement new classes - I just believe we haven't heard about it yet.

Basically, in short, complaining at this point in the game isn't going to do much good - many of these arguments have been made, and because we have no new info to go from, there probably won't be any "Eureka!" moments from the playing community at large. We'll just have to sit back, wait for them to announce their latest decisions, and then start "discussing" again.