A player in game tweaked my interest with a remark. They said..
"All the changes, nerfs, and basic way the game is run, played and operated comes down to one thing really.. The devs like to see what we'll do, it wouldn't surpise me if they sit and watch us complain and laugh their ...'s off"
At first I thought, "ok buddy step away from the computer, your tin foil hat is getting too tight". But after I thought about it, some of the things they have implemented or failed to implement make me wonder sometimes. I mean how do we know that they give a rats ... what we want? While it's true you can never please everyone, I have seen online games go down in flames from changes, nerfs etc, and the player base screamed and the devs ignored them.
So my question is, what if any is the thought process in deciding what is done in game? So many things in game seem designed to make some players miserable, and make the game way harder than it needs to be. Boredom is the biggest factor in many of the arguements in towns and camps in game. Many have said if they found a game that was similar and was not pay to play (monthly fee) they'd try it, so the gaming companies cannot really rely on the loyalty factor forever.
May say the game is too easy, others say they can't get anywhere, pvp wants this, pve wants that.. I wonder how many of the devs are going gray and thinking they should have taken a different job by now.
Did you ever think that...
Enchanted Warrior
Shmanka
Personally I believe the entire Anet staff has their ears open, but I really think it is being used on the wrong people.
May not seem this huge, but I would bet 80% of the people who play this game are PvE, mainly and only. This is the fundamental problem of the game.
Since the majority is PvE, it could also be said that mainly PvP'ers are "full-time" players, which I believe Anet turns a blind eye to compared to PvE.
They have to appease the bigger population of the game, PvP nerfs directly affect PvE. PvE doesn't like it/doesn't care.~ This is true.
Yet most PvE'ers aren't even interested in the mechanics or depth of the game as much as PvP'ers on average. This is why there are alot of complaints PvP'ers have and why they appease to PvE more so then often.
A great and awesome example is the Avatar of Grenth issue. I personally have posted huge huge arguments against why this skill should even exist with the mechanic it has. Pointing fingers aside, this skill was agreed by the further most of the PvP community to be overpowered, and over 90% of the suggestions I have read recalled to "mechanic change". The other 10% said to "leave it as is your a nuub! hax!" etc etc. Yet what does Anet do? To appease the PvE'ers and the extention of time, they just reduce duration of Grenth, making the dervish basically amputate its very own legs in PvP, yet Anet said to PvE "Sorry your PvP brother broke your toy, I tried to fix it."
This is how much PvE affects PvP, a very different side of the argument that has not been pointed out before. It's not Anet's fault entirely, it's just they have to prioritize who will they listen to: The full-time PvP'ers, or the Part-Time PvE'ers.
May not seem this huge, but I would bet 80% of the people who play this game are PvE, mainly and only. This is the fundamental problem of the game.
Since the majority is PvE, it could also be said that mainly PvP'ers are "full-time" players, which I believe Anet turns a blind eye to compared to PvE.
They have to appease the bigger population of the game, PvP nerfs directly affect PvE. PvE doesn't like it/doesn't care.~ This is true.
Yet most PvE'ers aren't even interested in the mechanics or depth of the game as much as PvP'ers on average. This is why there are alot of complaints PvP'ers have and why they appease to PvE more so then often.
A great and awesome example is the Avatar of Grenth issue. I personally have posted huge huge arguments against why this skill should even exist with the mechanic it has. Pointing fingers aside, this skill was agreed by the further most of the PvP community to be overpowered, and over 90% of the suggestions I have read recalled to "mechanic change". The other 10% said to "leave it as is your a nuub! hax!" etc etc. Yet what does Anet do? To appease the PvE'ers and the extention of time, they just reduce duration of Grenth, making the dervish basically amputate its very own legs in PvP, yet Anet said to PvE "Sorry your PvP brother broke your toy, I tried to fix it."
This is how much PvE affects PvP, a very different side of the argument that has not been pointed out before. It's not Anet's fault entirely, it's just they have to prioritize who will they listen to: The full-time PvP'ers, or the Part-Time PvE'ers.
Enchanted Warrior
I have a feeling they ruling body at Anet are programmers. If so this is a big mistake, they need business minded people running it. Why? If they do not appease the largest possible faction of the players, the game will cease being viable and lose revenue. Plain and simple.
I have heard over and over, "why don't they post a poll at login and let the players show how they feel?" The only answer I could think of was "Anet doesn't care". I mean, what other answer is there? They have weekends and only hear from the die hard players that live in game and base global changes on that limited view. I really wonder sometimes. I can understand why so many established brick and mortar business's still think gaming companies are a fad that will fade as quickly as it started. In many many cases they were and continue to be exactly right on the money with that analogy. And with that in mind, perhaps gaming companies are not in it for th long haul, they willg rab all they can then retire at 40. Not bad I guess, but it shows how jaded people are becoming (if true) and how sad that ideal really is.
I have heard over and over, "why don't they post a poll at login and let the players show how they feel?" The only answer I could think of was "Anet doesn't care". I mean, what other answer is there? They have weekends and only hear from the die hard players that live in game and base global changes on that limited view. I really wonder sometimes. I can understand why so many established brick and mortar business's still think gaming companies are a fad that will fade as quickly as it started. In many many cases they were and continue to be exactly right on the money with that analogy. And with that in mind, perhaps gaming companies are not in it for th long haul, they willg rab all they can then retire at 40. Not bad I guess, but it shows how jaded people are becoming (if true) and how sad that ideal really is.
wsmcasey
Okay.........I'm usually the one to gripe and complain about stuff, but not this time.
Its a huge insult to say that the Devs do not care about this game. They invest a lot of time and effort to keep the game balanced, and for you to say they dont care about us is just plain rude.
You might say that your mother doesnt care about you because she yells at you, but guess what, she wouldnt bother to yell at you if she didnt care.
The rule applies to Anet and the players of Guildwars, Anet wouldnt bother to keep the game balanced if they didnt care for the welfare of the game and its players. Skills get nerfed because someone in PvE or PvP has found a way to abuse the skills, thus creating a balance issue in the game.
Its a huge insult to say that the Devs do not care about this game. They invest a lot of time and effort to keep the game balanced, and for you to say they dont care about us is just plain rude.
You might say that your mother doesnt care about you because she yells at you, but guess what, she wouldnt bother to yell at you if she didnt care.
The rule applies to Anet and the players of Guildwars, Anet wouldnt bother to keep the game balanced if they didnt care for the welfare of the game and its players. Skills get nerfed because someone in PvE or PvP has found a way to abuse the skills, thus creating a balance issue in the game.
Shmanka
Quote:
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Originally Posted by wsmcasey
Skills get nerfed because someone in PvE or PvP has found a way to abuse the skills, thus creating a balance issue in the game.
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Gift of Health, Orison of Healing, Protective Spirit, Spirit Bond, Reversal of Fortune.
The absolute most abused skills in this game by the monk profession. They have not been nerfed.
Loviatar
[QUOTE]
since you obviously are not aware of reality i will fill you in.
they have continous logs of how people play and nice neat charts showing who is playing how and for how long they did it.
the event weekends are used to see what draws the most interest and how to best fit it into the game if enough interest is shown.
if they had an event nobody came to for more than a few minutes than stayed away that idea would not be seen later in game.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Enchanted Warrior
They have weekends and only hear from the die hard players that live in game and base global changes on that limited view.
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they have continous logs of how people play and nice neat charts showing who is playing how and for how long they did it.
the event weekends are used to see what draws the most interest and how to best fit it into the game if enough interest is shown.
if they had an event nobody came to for more than a few minutes than stayed away that idea would not be seen later in game.
wsmcasey
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Shmanka
Note: Huge difference between imbalanced and abused.
Gift of Health, Orison of Healing, Protective Spirit, Spirit Bond, Reversal of Fortune. The absolute most abused skills in this game by the monk profession. They have not been nerfed. |
Last time I checked I thought that Spirit Bond got nerfed a bit. The other skills you mentioned are not over powered. Ever hear of Desecrate Enchantments? Backfire?
Guild Wars is a cooperative/competitive online role-playing game (CORPG) with a key design feature being "balanced competitive gaming". The primary focus is PvP even though there is a ton of PvE content. I suppose it would be nice if PvE and PvP were separate, but I dont see that happening anytime soon, at least not with the current chapters.
Relambrien
Quote:
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Originally Posted by wsmcasey
Last time I checked I thought that Spirit Bond got nerfed a bit. The other skills you mentioned are not over powered. Ever hear of Desecrate Enchantments? Backfire?
Guild Wars is a cooperative/competitive online role-playing game (CORPG) with a key design feature being "balanced competitive gaming". The primary focus is PvP even though there is a ton of PvE content. I suppose it would be nice if PvE and PvP were separate, but I dont see that happening anytime soon, at least not with the current chapters. |
And besides that, you failed to see his point. "Abused" and "imbalanced" mean different things. Those skills are "abused," not "imbalanced."
pigdestroyer
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Shmanka
Note: Huge difference between imbalanced and abused.
Gift of Health, Orison of Healing, Protective Spirit, Spirit Bond, Reversal of Fortune. The absolute most abused skills in this game by the monk profession. They have not been nerfed. |
thanks.
Ritual del Fuego
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Shmanka
A great and awesome example is the Avatar of Grenth issue. I personally have posted huge huge arguments against why this skill should even exist with the mechanic it has. Pointing fingers aside, this skill was agreed by the further most of the PvP community to be overpowered, and over 90% of the suggestions I have read recalled to "mechanic change". The other 10% said to "leave it as is your a nuub! hax!" etc etc. Yet what does Anet do? To appease the PvE'ers and the extention of time, they just reduce duration of Grenth, making the dervish basically amputate its very own legs in PvP, yet Anet said to PvE "Sorry your PvP brother broke your toy, I tried to fix it."
This is how much PvE affects PvP, a very different side of the argument that has not been pointed out before. It's not Anet's fault entirely, it's just they have to prioritize who will they listen to: The full-time PvP'ers, or the Part-Time PvE'ers. |
Zorglubb
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Enchanted Warrior
they need business minded people running it. Why? If they do not appease the largest possible faction of the players, the game will cease being viable and lose revenue. Plain and simple.
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- the creators, that make everything out of nothing
- the parasits, that serve no purpose but their own
- the bureaucrats, that make nothing out of everything
Every successful company evolves from having a few of the first, to having lots of the later ones, and the more "business minded" it is, the more people of the later categories it has.
BryanM
Quote:
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Originally Posted by wsmcasey
Ever hear of Desecrate Enchantments? Backfire?
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The Reversal of Fortune and such do kind of annoy me, in the sense that all 90% of the other skills are so awful in comparison. It annoys me since it's like our skillbars are pretty much built for us.
Having 600+ skills to choose from means nothing when they have such a huge discrepancy in power levels. In this game the bell curve for skill power should be heavily biased toward high, instead of toward the low that we've had forever.
Enchanted Warrior
How did we get to arguing about skill balances..? LOL
Omega X
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ritual del Fuego
Avatar of Grenth is one of the worst avatars in PvE. Somehow I don't think PvE was the deciding factor in how they adjusted the skill.
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Though its hated in PvE most likely because they don't like to give NPC enemies weaknesses. And in Nightfall, I don't know many enemies that are affected by Cold damage. As for stripping enchants, it seems that only Dervish enemies use them the most and can be double edge sword if removed.
Could be useful against Titans, imps or Ruby Djinn/Roaring Ethers. But anyhoo...
SerenitySilverstar
I had a hearty chuckle over this:
http://www.somethingawful.com/d/news...-frontline.php
Just exchange the "WoW" for "GW" and chuckle away.
http://www.somethingawful.com/d/news...-frontline.php
Just exchange the "WoW" for "GW" and chuckle away.
Jetdoc
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Enchanted Warrior
How did we get to arguing about skill balances..? LOL
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Priest Of Sin
All the skill balances are GOOD in the long run. Every one of them. Imagine if they'd never nerfed the AI? Gold would be $2 for 100k on eBay and items would be worth like nothing. What if they'd never nerfed AoE? We'd have eles running around like gods, wiping entire maps clean. What if Rit spike had never been tweaked...?
Archangel Xavier
At least now we are getting some answers as to why some updates are implemented. I still believe that, while I do not agree with some changes that have been made, balancing, maintaining, and governing an online community of thousands is about as easy as running a nation. I couldn't do it better, or at all for that matter. In all liklihood, devs/gms and all those guys are sitting in meetings and carrying on lengthy discussions throughout the day as to how they might improve gameplay and keep their players happy. I can imgaine they do this to the point where they are bored to tears and frustated over things like a drop in playerbase or community outrage. Anyone who devotes that amount of time and empathy to making our gaming experience excellent should be praised.
Kakumei
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Shmanka
Note: Huge difference between imbalanced and abused.
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No one would ever in their right mind say that Orison of Healing is "abused".
sixdartbart
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Kakumei
Look, I know used and abused are very similar-looking words, but they're actually not the same.
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4,5,6,7,8
Diablo???
The developers do what developers do, and they did their best, but once in a while there's always some foul ups. No one/game/dev/company is perfect, and if it's not up to par, let them know. They should and do care, because no company developing any software or merchandise that completely disregards their target audience's opinion can stay in business for long, less achieve so many awards.
lucifer_uk
The company as a whole care about one thing.... $$$. Without the fan base there is no $$$.
FoxBat
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Enchanted Warrior
I have a feeling they ruling body at Anet are programmers. If so this is a big mistake, they need business minded people running it. Why? If they do not appease the largest possible faction of the players, the game will cease being viable and lose revenue. Plain and simple.
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Integrity of high-end PvP > you and everyone else's Zedd searing flames build, I'm sorry. The whole competitive image of GW crumbles and disappears if they just concede everything to the masses. (And well, many PvE things too, but since we are on the topic of skill nerfs...)
While polling more players would be useful, the hardcore are the ones who want the changes most. Do we make sweeping changes based on 90% of players who have a mild interest in them?
Series
Quote:
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Originally Posted by FoxBat
Please, enough things have already been ruined in this way.
Integrity of high-end PvP > you and everyone else's Zedd searing flames build, I'm sorry. The whole competitive image of GW crumbles and disappears if they just concede everything to the masses. (And well, many PvE things too, but since we are on the topic of skill nerfs...) While polling more players would be useful, the hardcore are the ones who want the changes most. Do we make sweeping changes based on 90% of players who have a mild interest in them? |
Tingi
This thread is going to be closed as it is turning into another PvP vs PvE thread.
Let me set things straight. Skills are GENERALLY balanced due to balancing PvP. Not PvE. One example is the Shadow of Haste nerf. To all you PvE'ers out there who think it was nerfed because "it was too easy to farm with it", you are wrong. It was nerfed as it made Ganking the enemies base in GvG oh too easy. Nothing to do with PvE.
Of course there are nerfs to "balance" (if you will) the PvE "meta?". However, PvP is the core of Guild Wars. These skill changes don't even affect PvE that much but they are NEEDED in PvP or else it would be crazy.
PvE is a very small issue when Izzy makes the skill changes. That is not an opinion. That is a fact.
Let me set things straight. Skills are GENERALLY balanced due to balancing PvP. Not PvE. One example is the Shadow of Haste nerf. To all you PvE'ers out there who think it was nerfed because "it was too easy to farm with it", you are wrong. It was nerfed as it made Ganking the enemies base in GvG oh too easy. Nothing to do with PvE.
Of course there are nerfs to "balance" (if you will) the PvE "meta?". However, PvP is the core of Guild Wars. These skill changes don't even affect PvE that much but they are NEEDED in PvP or else it would be crazy.
PvE is a very small issue when Izzy makes the skill changes. That is not an opinion. That is a fact.
frickett
I don't feel that the devs do things just to see how we will react. I think most things they do are reactions to what we have done. However I dont think that PVP is the core of guild wars, I never have, I also dont know why everything has to be pvpvspve...just play.
Skyy High
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Series
Why not? Why should only the 10% (as you say) have a say in it but the other 90% not? Everybody who plays the game should have a say in what decisions are made, whether they play 20 hours a day or a half hour a day.
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Compare this to PvP, which requires the skill updates in order to maintain a balanced environment, which is what the entire format is based on. Balance, ie skill updates.
An overpowered skill in PvE, at worst, makes the game less fun as you roll through the mobs with ease. An overpowered skill in PvP makes the game all about one build and its counter, or degenerate GvG play to who can gank first (hence the latest assassin changes).
Yosh
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Tan Blademaster
This thread is going to be closed as it is turning into another PvP vs PvE thread.
Let me set things straight. Skills are GENERALLY balanced due to balancing PvP. Not PvE. One example is the Shadow of Haste nerf. To all you PvE'ers out there who think it was nerfed because "it was too easy to farm with it", you are wrong. It was nerfed as it made Ganking the enemies base in GvG oh too easy. Nothing to do with PvE. Of course there are nerfs to "balance" (if you will) the PvE "meta?". However, PvP is the core of Guild Wars. These skill changes don't even affect PvE that much but they are NEEDED in PvP or else it would be crazy. PvE is a very small issue when Izzy makes the skill changes. That is not an opinion. That is a fact. |
You're saying this was becoming a PvE vs PvP thread only to say PvP's what GW is about? I'll leave it at that. Back to topic, Anet's biggest problem with changes, updates, ect, is that whatever they try to do for one side (PvP or PvE) the other side complains about. Then trying to find something in the middle, the whole update is ruined. That's why I think this thread was pushing PvE vs PvP. The solution: At the moment their is none. Just throw a new game in there to make them satisfyed for a week and try to fix it then.
Enchanted Warrior
PVP, dull, boring, I'd pay to play if they dumped it..
(I just wanted to sound as stupid as those saying the reverse..Think they'll get the hint? I doubt it)
(I just wanted to sound as stupid as those saying the reverse..Think they'll get the hint? I doubt it)
Yosh
This needs to be closed. This is about if Anet cares about us. not PvP vs PvE.
Enchanted Warrior
I agree, close it
Shmanka
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Kakumei
Look, I know used and abused are very similar-looking words, but they're actually not the same.
No one would ever in their right mind say that Orison of Healing is "abused". |
Light Of Deliverance, it's there. Word of Healing, it's there. ZB Hybrid Flaggers, it's there. There are barely any other considerations or options to even choose from. It is used on the bias of the energy effectiveness cost and recharge wise compared to every other monk skill. It is used, and over used is the point I was getting across. Showing to counter the fact that if something is used alot does not mean it is overpowered. I could have said Diversion, or Ressurection Signet in place as well.
Inde
This went off-topic quickly into a PvP vs. PvE discussion thread. Closing.