I don't know how to call this thread, I just wanted to post some variants I came up with of the hated/loved/overused-but-still-used BoA build and see what you thought of them. And if you had any variants you could post 'em too to discuss or something.
I've tested and used both of these variants in all sorts of PvP (AB, RA, TA, HA) and though you still need monking (AB less so because you can replace the res sig with a self heal), I think the second version gives more defense.
And neither of these use Shadow Prison. I don't like Shadow Prison. I like Moebius Strike. So I make things to work with Moebius Strike :P Instead, I use Siphon Speed as my hex. This stops runners from...running and it's a decent enough snare and doesn't cost a lot. Recharge time isn't that bad either so if you absolutely must reuse it you can.
Both of the builds use the same attributes and equipment as the original BoA build, but I'll post them again anyway. (oh and ignore the titles...they came up on the spur of the moment whilst making this post lol)
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Blossom Burst
Attributes:
Dagger Mastery 11 + 1 + 1
Critical Strikes 12 + 1
Deadly Arts 6 + 1
Full energy armor, zealous daggers with vampiric as a subset.
[skill]Siphon Speed[/skill][skill]Burst of Aggression[/skill][skill]Black Spider Strike[/skill][skill]Twisting Fangs[/skill][skill]Moebius Strike[/skill][skill]Death Blossom[/skill][skill]Black Lotus Strike[/skill][skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]
Ouch, a lot of attack skills I know. And obviously, no defense, no healing, though the original build didn't have much of it anyway. If you have a monk, you're golden, and you can cause a lot of damage with the DB spam, especially against spirit spammers. Spirits go bye bye really fast with DB and you can even kill someone who is right next to your target (I've done it..it was funny.). This is just really just to make the build more spammable against the more protected foe and those who are being monked on a lot. Yes, this build was meant for quick kill, but if you have 2 monks on the other side...can't really quick kill. It's also a little easier on the energy I think.
I think of this build as basically the Repeating Moebius (which was recently unfavored, but was favored for a while) and the BoA build infused together. It's fun to spam, but it really requires some sort of support system. Definitely not a solo, but it applies a lot of pressure.
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Repetitive Defensive Aggression
Attributes:
Dagger Mastery 11 + 1 + 1
Critical Strikes 12 + 1
Deadly Arts 6 + 1
Full energy armor, zealous daggers with vampiric as a subset.
[skill]Siphon Speed[/skill][skill]Burst of Aggression[/skill][skill]Black Spider Strike[/skill][skill]Twisting Fangs[/skill][skill]Moebius Strike[/skill][skill]Critical Strike[/skill][skill]Critical Defenses[/skill][skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]
Well this is a little less spammable since CS doesn't have the awesome 2 second recharge that DB has, BUT you can get your energy back as well as keep Critical Defenses up. This variant is what I'm currently using a lot now. It's great for physical defense, especially against other sins and tanks who might pound on you while trying to defend their caster or monk. Also the chance of the ranger missing you with their poison arrow has increased. Spells are still a mess and of course it's not perfect. Standard enchantment removals and counters still apply. But with CS, you will have more of a chance of blocking those horrible conditioned attacks that other sins love to apply and you can merrily whack away at your target without any problems, and your monk can not worry about you for a *little* bit. Until necros and mesmer hound on you with their curses and hexes :P
I was always bad with my timing when using Critical Defenses. With the current attributes they will last only 9 seconds, so it's best to use it AFTER using Siphon Speed and you're closer to them. Or if you see some meleers coming at you. Also, if you don't get a critical hit in fast enough, there goes the defense _._;; So timing is critically important and it could take some practice and luck. If you get blocked keep whacking or quickly try to hit someone else to get a random critical hit in. Every critical hit counts! In AB you could replace the res with Critical Eye if you're not gonna bother with self heals. But that's up to you. The build has some holes, but when done right it's pretty good..I think. And I used the word "critical" too much...
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Counters
- You're standard melee counters (evil hexes and curses. evil. and blind. more evil.)
- Hex removal
- Blocks
I find the condition removals to not be so much of a problem as you can reapply Twisting Fangs once you've recharged it and MS hits. But yes, condition removals are also bad.
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And that's about it. I'm sure there are other people who've made some sort of similar builds like this so I'm not gonna try and claim any originality here. Plus it's already stated this is a variant of the BoA. I have considered taking out the BoA and using something completely different, but still not sure what. I've heard of Flurry suggested but I tried it and..iunno it didn't seem as great. But that's probably just me.
I was also very hesitant about posting this thread because...well I'm just posting up variants and letting people post up their own variants if they so wished or discuss other possibilities of the BoA build since the Shadow Prison and Blades of Steel nerfs.
I just never liked the original build because of the recharge times. With these two I could continually sift through each target without much waiting time. More so with the "Repetitive Defensive Aggression" build since I would be hitting Critical Strike every other time and getting my energy back through that. I would see other BoA sins take down their target, but then have to sort of run off to heal or just regular attack another one and usually I spike them and move on to the next.
*shrugs* if the mods have a problem with this thread, please tell me :]
Edit:
FRICK!
>_>;; I forgot this was campfire and is PvE only.
Mods please move or delete this thread if you have to since it's more PvP oriented. I tried to stop it in time but meh too late!
Sorry!!!
I went to see the appropriate spot in the PvP section but...I can't seem to find the right section >_o I must be blind, but this thread is just about this build pretty much and not about strategy and aaaggh x_x;;
I'm so sorry >_< S'what I get for posting at around 2:30 in the morning...
BoA build variants
Laenavesse
Yanman.be
<3 Laenavesse.
Priest Of Sin
Shame these variants can't match the damage of the original BoA build... they're nice tho ^^
Laenavesse
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yanman.be
<3 Leanavesse.
you misspelled my name D:
@ Priest of Sin:
On the contrary, this does almost the same amount of damage as the original
Or rather, it still kills them fast enough 
Well let me calculate (with the attributes)...and if I'm wrong, correct me cos I've never done it before and I'm just using the data from wiki :O
- With the original BoA build, your core damage is from BSS + TF + BLS + BoS. So here is the damage from it (at 13 dagger):
Normal Damage + (15x4)2 = +120 dmg
so add +120 with the damage from BSS and TF and BLS.
Now to compare with the variants
- With the first build, you get BSS +TF + MS + DB + MB + DB etc. etc. with a toss in of BLS for energy at some point. So lets look at just one chain of MS + DB.
MS = Normal Damage + 32
DB = Normal Damage + 42x2 = + 84 dmg
Total those up and you get + 116 from MS and DB alone, and that's if you hit with that damage of course. With another hit of MS it's +148.
- Now for the MS + CS
MS = Normal Damage + 32
CS = Normal Damage + 27x2 = + 54
Total damage from MS and CS is + 86. By this time you can also toss in MS for an additional +32, giving +114 dmg.
Now if I did this wrong correct me _._ But from looking at the numbers, you're dealing a lot of damage as well as lying down the 3 major conditions. With CS, you get the bonus of recharging Critical Defenses as well as possibly getting + 14 energy (+3 from crit strikes, +3 from critical strike, +1 from zealous, and all that x2 since it's a dual attack :3)
The variants DON'T get the shadow step or the 66% snare, and you might still have to chase them a little, but you can still do damning damage once you're on them.
*scribbles through what she wrote* NOW that I fixed my stupid error *was thinking of Moebius chain when she was doing this* It looks like the overall damage output is near (if not more) than the original. Also, you can move around from one foe to the other without much problems. With using Moebius, if you can get it in before the person dies then you have your chain ready to go for the next person. Also, the skills should be almost recharged anyway so you can still whack a little before applying the whole combo with BSS. Downside of the Defensive one is that you only have BSS but it's usually okay unless you hit a blocked person _._;;
whoo.
Edit:
fudge cakes *keeps making mistakes*
@ Priest of Sin:
On the contrary, this does almost the same amount of damage as the original
Well let me calculate (with the attributes)...and if I'm wrong, correct me cos I've never done it before and I'm just using the data from wiki :O
- With the original BoA build, your core damage is from BSS + TF + BLS + BoS. So here is the damage from it (at 13 dagger):
Normal Damage + (15x4)2 = +120 dmg
so add +120 with the damage from BSS and TF and BLS.
Now to compare with the variants
- With the first build, you get BSS +TF + MS + DB + MB + DB etc. etc. with a toss in of BLS for energy at some point. So lets look at just one chain of MS + DB.
MS = Normal Damage + 32
DB = Normal Damage + 42x2 = + 84 dmg
Total those up and you get + 116 from MS and DB alone, and that's if you hit with that damage of course. With another hit of MS it's +148.
- Now for the MS + CS
MS = Normal Damage + 32
CS = Normal Damage + 27x2 = + 54
Total damage from MS and CS is + 86. By this time you can also toss in MS for an additional +32, giving +114 dmg.
Now if I did this wrong correct me _._ But from looking at the numbers, you're dealing a lot of damage as well as lying down the 3 major conditions. With CS, you get the bonus of recharging Critical Defenses as well as possibly getting + 14 energy (+3 from crit strikes, +3 from critical strike, +1 from zealous, and all that x2 since it's a dual attack :3)
The variants DON'T get the shadow step or the 66% snare, and you might still have to chase them a little, but you can still do damning damage once you're on them.
*scribbles through what she wrote* NOW that I fixed my stupid error *was thinking of Moebius chain when she was doing this* It looks like the overall damage output is near (if not more) than the original. Also, you can move around from one foe to the other without much problems. With using Moebius, if you can get it in before the person dies then you have your chain ready to go for the next person. Also, the skills should be almost recharged anyway so you can still whack a little before applying the whole combo with BSS. Downside of the Defensive one is that you only have BSS but it's usually okay unless you hit a blocked person _._;;
whoo.
Edit:
fudge cakes *keeps making mistakes*
FoxBat
I like Moebius builds, but I don't see the point of IAS in them. The recharge on Moebius is about the same as a dual attack at zero IAS, IAS just makes you wait.
Laenavesse
Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxBat
I like Moebius builds, but I don't see the point of IAS in them. The recharge on Moebius is about the same as a dual attack at zero IAS, IAS just makes you wait.
Well, this is mainly for PvP so essentially the IAS is just to nail that first combo on so fast they can't really react to it. I also use it as a sort of quick energy or health gain with just regular attacks.
ensoriki
Critical defenses
Golden phoenix strike
Critical strike
moebuis strike
Death blossom
BoA
Dash
Fiegned neutrality/shadow refugee
Its fun in AB, Dash lets you run right up to the enemy after casting critical defenses and them BoA hit em.
HoTo works well on it aswell.
Golden phoenix strike
Critical strike
moebuis strike
Death blossom
BoA
Dash
Fiegned neutrality/shadow refugee
Its fun in AB, Dash lets you run right up to the enemy after casting critical defenses and them BoA hit em.
HoTo works well on it aswell.
FoxBat
I guess I'm used to blossom/horns moebius builds which are pure pressure and have their place in RA/TA, as well as enough room to bring a defense skill. #2 would probably shine best in AB/RA where the monks are lacking and there's no good reason to wait 20 seconds between kills, but only #1 feels like it has the damage for organized PvP. Looks interesting, I'll give em a try.
Edit:
After tying some, I still don't like the "spike" aspect of this build as-is. If your attack chain is dependent on siphon speed then there's no way for you to spike without a shadowstep, since that hex is such an enormous warning about who you are targeting, and any decent squishy player will prekite/prot you making expose-Shadow Prison-style spike speed impossible outside of AB. Bad teams will wait until the damage lands, good teams will actually communicate and will always be watching your siphon target, which will suffer from moebius pressure but be difficult to spike out. A hex necro can get around this problem, though then you need some other source of snare/KD since good teams will kite you and you won't even get your second attack off before BoA expires. Water ele ftw? Could work in HA.
Edit:
After tying some, I still don't like the "spike" aspect of this build as-is. If your attack chain is dependent on siphon speed then there's no way for you to spike without a shadowstep, since that hex is such an enormous warning about who you are targeting, and any decent squishy player will prekite/prot you making expose-Shadow Prison-style spike speed impossible outside of AB. Bad teams will wait until the damage lands, good teams will actually communicate and will always be watching your siphon target, which will suffer from moebius pressure but be difficult to spike out. A hex necro can get around this problem, though then you need some other source of snare/KD since good teams will kite you and you won't even get your second attack off before BoA expires. Water ele ftw? Could work in HA.
Laenavesse
Yeah, I originally tried siphon speed with death's charge but since it was half a distance of normal skill/spell things, it was sort of a pointless.
However, I don't seem to see the sort of problem you're having. Hex removal obviously kills it so it's possible you could try to target someone who is closer to you.
One of the big things I've noticed while in RA and TA is the number of A secondaries. Though usually any assassin hex used is probably more often from an actual sin, now I have to think twice whether or not it's from a real sin or from a W/A or D/A or E/A or R/A or whatever /A. Plus sins usually get kited and targeted anyway xD. I would just be standing there just looking at who i want to hit and bam I already have Empathy or Insiduous Parasite or Parasitic Bond or SS or SV on me. And those are already traditional counter against any melee person so though the hex will also trigger a response, I don't think it's the only one.
Also, I don't actually depend on BoA. Because usually I get key happy and accidentally trigger BoA before I even get to the target so I don't have the speed anymore XD;; But I still get my target killed. It's better if you do it tactically and use it on an unexpecting target...and not on a Monk that you know has Hex Breaker on.
And I don't know if I want to consider my variants as much of a spike as the original, since the original is obviously more effective with the shadow step and snare in one. I think I'm used to pressuring my targets anyway so these builds are more pressure based than spike based, but it *can* be a spike. It's sorta a 50-50 I think. It's sorta how you play it.
Ironically I, me, personally, myself, don't always target the squishies XD Yes, I do, but if my target has a monk or healer and I see that they are getting raped by some other sin or tank and the other side's monk is more focused on the ele and themself, then I just switch over and take out/distract the other melee.
No, it's not the standard sin tactic >_> And probably frowned upon >_> But I play differently and I've saved many a monk's (and some other squishy's) life that way. Of course, my primary target is a softie, but I won't hesitate to take out something tougher if it helps the team. Plus, it's usually the non-healers that have the res signets. So once they're dead and wasted the res signets the monk is vulnerable.
Of course you have to make it through the monk healing them, but that's where picking the target comes in.
Aagggh it's complicated >_< I just prefer my variant over the original because I can at least keep whacking and sift through one target after another. And if there's a runner i can pop Siphon on it and then whoever is chasing them can catch 'em. Usually they run despite the hex anyway...
However, I don't seem to see the sort of problem you're having. Hex removal obviously kills it so it's possible you could try to target someone who is closer to you.
One of the big things I've noticed while in RA and TA is the number of A secondaries. Though usually any assassin hex used is probably more often from an actual sin, now I have to think twice whether or not it's from a real sin or from a W/A or D/A or E/A or R/A or whatever /A. Plus sins usually get kited and targeted anyway xD. I would just be standing there just looking at who i want to hit and bam I already have Empathy or Insiduous Parasite or Parasitic Bond or SS or SV on me. And those are already traditional counter against any melee person so though the hex will also trigger a response, I don't think it's the only one.
Also, I don't actually depend on BoA. Because usually I get key happy and accidentally trigger BoA before I even get to the target so I don't have the speed anymore XD;; But I still get my target killed. It's better if you do it tactically and use it on an unexpecting target...and not on a Monk that you know has Hex Breaker on.
And I don't know if I want to consider my variants as much of a spike as the original, since the original is obviously more effective with the shadow step and snare in one. I think I'm used to pressuring my targets anyway so these builds are more pressure based than spike based, but it *can* be a spike. It's sorta a 50-50 I think. It's sorta how you play it.
Ironically I, me, personally, myself, don't always target the squishies XD Yes, I do, but if my target has a monk or healer and I see that they are getting raped by some other sin or tank and the other side's monk is more focused on the ele and themself, then I just switch over and take out/distract the other melee.
No, it's not the standard sin tactic >_> And probably frowned upon >_> But I play differently and I've saved many a monk's (and some other squishy's) life that way. Of course, my primary target is a softie, but I won't hesitate to take out something tougher if it helps the team. Plus, it's usually the non-healers that have the res signets. So once they're dead and wasted the res signets the monk is vulnerable.
Of course you have to make it through the monk healing them, but that's where picking the target comes in.
Aagggh it's complicated >_< I just prefer my variant over the original because I can at least keep whacking and sift through one target after another. And if there's a runner i can pop Siphon on it and then whoever is chasing them can catch 'em. Usually they run despite the hex anyway...
FoxBat
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laenavesse
=
Also, I don't actually depend on BoA. Because usually I get key happy and accidentally trigger BoA before I even get to the target so I don't have the speed anymore XD;; But I still get my target killed. Exactly, you don't need/can't use BoA much. After some more play/thought my problem with BoA on this bar is pretty simple: siphon speed isn't enough of a snare. When you've got a mere 5 second window, you either make every second count or you put something else on your bar. If you could cram Horns of the Ox on there somehow, then burst would have a bit of a use. There's a reason why practically every warrior carries some kind of knockdown these days. (Or else shadow prison in the recently-passed days)
It's true alot of RA/AB/even TA doesn't know the meaning of kiting, so you wouldn't notice much difference there. But otherwise you should be able to sub in something else in its place and have even better results. It is a good (maybe not original) build as-is, just feels like that one skill slot could be put to better use.
Also, I don't actually depend on BoA. Because usually I get key happy and accidentally trigger BoA before I even get to the target so I don't have the speed anymore XD;; But I still get my target killed. Exactly, you don't need/can't use BoA much. After some more play/thought my problem with BoA on this bar is pretty simple: siphon speed isn't enough of a snare. When you've got a mere 5 second window, you either make every second count or you put something else on your bar. If you could cram Horns of the Ox on there somehow, then burst would have a bit of a use. There's a reason why practically every warrior carries some kind of knockdown these days. (Or else shadow prison in the recently-passed days)
It's true alot of RA/AB/even TA doesn't know the meaning of kiting, so you wouldn't notice much difference there. But otherwise you should be able to sub in something else in its place and have even better results. It is a good (maybe not original) build as-is, just feels like that one skill slot could be put to better use.
Laenavesse
Yeah, the BoA is really for the BSS + TF + whatever you have after. I usually can get the whole attack string in there because i just run my fingers over the keys instantly and it goes. And you're supposed to hit right when you start attacking.
I've been thinking of what to put in the slot and been staring at the Priest of Balthazar whilst looking at skills. It's possible to just use Death's Charge or put in another hex, like Expose Defenses.
BTW, the 5 second thing was meant for BoA right? Because the way you ordered your phrases it sounded like it was directed toward Siphon Speed and I believe it lasts 12 seconds XD
If i ever figure something out as a replacement I'll post it..maybe. >_o;; *never that confident about any of her "builds" >_o;;*
I've been thinking of what to put in the slot and been staring at the Priest of Balthazar whilst looking at skills. It's possible to just use Death's Charge or put in another hex, like Expose Defenses.
BTW, the 5 second thing was meant for BoA right? Because the way you ordered your phrases it sounded like it was directed toward Siphon Speed and I believe it lasts 12 seconds XD
If i ever figure something out as a replacement I'll post it..maybe. >_o;; *never that confident about any of her "builds" >_o;;*
Samurai-JM
[skill]Assassin's Promise[/skill][skill]Dark Prison[/skill][skill]Burst of Aggression[/skill][skill]Black Lotus Strike[/skill][skill]Twisting Fangs[/skill][skill]Black Spider Strike[/skill][skill]Blades of Steel[/skill][skill]Feigned Neutrality[/skill]
PvE BoA Spiking FTW.
I know everyone yells about how it sucks when Assassin's Promise fails, or that it has no rez, but it works flawlessly if you know what you're doing. Not so much a PvP build, but in PvE this thing rips through mobs like crazy.
Also, I don't know why everyone thinks sins have no survivability anymore, I haven't died more than 10 times this month. I just hero/hench everywhere I go too. I know most people usually have counters such as blind, melee hexes, evasion stances, etc, but I NEVER do because of my heros. I've never been blinded more than 2 seconds!
PvE BoA Spiking FTW.
I know everyone yells about how it sucks when Assassin's Promise fails, or that it has no rez, but it works flawlessly if you know what you're doing. Not so much a PvP build, but in PvE this thing rips through mobs like crazy.
Also, I don't know why everyone thinks sins have no survivability anymore, I haven't died more than 10 times this month. I just hero/hench everywhere I go too. I know most people usually have counters such as blind, melee hexes, evasion stances, etc, but I NEVER do because of my heros. I've never been blinded more than 2 seconds!
Kiba of hidden leaf
For the defensive build, because I like the idea, I would have 2 major runes and bump up shadow arts to add in way of perfection. Possibly remove burst for it.
Epic Monkey Battle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai-JM
[skill]Assassin's Promise[/skill][skill]Dark Prison[/skill][skill]Burst of Aggression[/skill][skill]Black Lotus Strike[/skill][skill]Twisting Fangs[/skill][skill]Black Spider Strike[/skill][skill]Blades of Steel[/skill][skill]Feigned Neutrality[/skill]
PvE BoA Spiking FTW.
I know everyone yells about how it sucks when Assassin's Promise fails, or that it has no rez, but it works flawlessly if you know what you're doing. Not so much a PvP build, but in PvE this thing rips through mobs like crazy. I've been using a build like that in PvE and it is quite nice, becuase if you do play it properly it is more efficient than the standard sp/boa build. It does have problems in PvP as monks tend to heal/remove hexes
PvE BoA Spiking FTW.
I know everyone yells about how it sucks when Assassin's Promise fails, or that it has no rez, but it works flawlessly if you know what you're doing. Not so much a PvP build, but in PvE this thing rips through mobs like crazy. I've been using a build like that in PvE and it is quite nice, becuase if you do play it properly it is more efficient than the standard sp/boa build. It does have problems in PvP as monks tend to heal/remove hexes
Samurai-JM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Epic Monkey Battle
I've been using a build like that in PvE and it is quite nice, becuase if you do play it properly it is more efficient than the standard sp/boa build. It does have problems in PvP as monks tend to heal/remove hexes
SP is the PvP Version
AP is the PvE Version
They both work great in their preferred areas, but if you switch them around they die very easily.
AP is the PvE Version
They both work great in their preferred areas, but if you switch them around they die very easily.