It was suggested that this be posted here in place of the bug report so here it is.
[skill]Pestilence[/skill]
The user only has to kill himself with self inflicted poisons and bleeds in order to pass it on to NPCs. You literally have Necro/Rangers or Ranger/Necros killing key NPCs in such maps as Aspenwood. A screen shot was posted with in another thread.
A note for all this means kurzicks can kill kurzicks and luxons can kill luxons.
While I do admit it was fun killing Togo, this should not be.
http://xs413.xs.to/xs413/07121/gw426.jpg
EDIT: Please read the Forum Rules on correct image sizing. -Swampgirl
Fixing Pestilence so it can not be used to kill friendly NPCs.
LoyalSoldier
Faer
The spirit is doing exactly what it is supposed to do, so no "fixing" needs to be done. If people are using it in Aspenwood, that's their prerogative. Unless you are complaining because people are using it to grief, such as people joining the Kurzick side simply to team-kill the gate/gatekeeper NPC units... Then again, that is also their right to do, even though it's a bit underhanded.
There's not really anything to /notsign here, because there isn't anything to fix...
There's not really anything to /notsign here, because there isn't anything to fix...
LoyalSoldier
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Originally Posted by Faer
The spirit is doing exactly what it is supposed to do, so no "fixing" needs to be done. If people are using it in Aspenwood, that's their prerogative. Unless you are complaining because people are using it to grief, such as people joining the Kurzick side simply to team-kill the gate/gatekeeper NPC units... Then again, that is also their right to do, even though it's a bit underhanded.
There's not really anything to /notsign here, because there isn't anything to fix... |
I do not agree that it is in their right to do so because they are basically destroying the fun for the others who try to play.
Cataclysm
I dont get it, don't Polteski and that other NPC monk heal Gunth>
LoyalSoldier
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Originally Posted by Cataclysm
I dont get it, don't Polteski and that other NPC monk heal Gunth>
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tenshi_strife
i would say you cant alter a skill because of griefing but heh well my guild got EoE nerf by accident while trying to get a bug in ab fixed..... we sucided with eoe up to kill all luxons allies *we are kurzick so it was kinda cool* but we wanted it changed to where you are unkillable before timer starts but instead anet nerfed eoe so i would say this Wont happen but i dont think it should
Faer
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Originally Posted by LoyalSoldier
I do not agree that it is in their right to do so because they are basically destroying the fun for the others who try to play.
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That being said, if you don't have any use for your secondary, or your build can work fine without it's elite (both of which are true in Aspenwood/Jade Quarry/Alliance Battles, as much as most people will refuse to admit it, as those "arenas" are just PvE with a twist and therefore almost anything can win there), bring one of these skills along to destroy Pestilence (I believe most of them work on Ranger spirits, though if not, you could always just roll a Monk...). Until ArenaNet decides to do anything about this particular use of the spirit, you really don't have any other options (except to grit your teeth and bear it, or not play at all).
arcanemacabre
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Originally Posted by Faer
It is every player's right to play this game however they so choose, as long as they do not break the rules of the game or the guidelines the company has set over it's use. Yes, griefing makes the game less fun for a lot of people, but there is nothing in the rules that says you can not kill your own NPC units off with Ranger spirits. Therefore, they are fully within their rights to do so, just as players are fully within their rights to sell items for exuberant prices or get runs through half a campaign; high prices and runs ruin fun aspects of the game for some people, but it's not against any rules, so they just have to deal with it.
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This is clearly a form of abuse, despite there being a handful of skills that can stop it from happening. People should not have to bring skills to stop sabotage. Simple solution, give the gatekeepers and Gunther those sabotage-stopping skills. The mechanic remains unchanged, but the abuse is stopped.
LoyalSoldier
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Originally Posted by arcanemacabre
Simple solution, give the gatekeepers and Gunther those sabotage-stopping skills. The mechanic remains unchanged, but the abuse is stopped.
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Originally Posted by Faer
That being said, if you don't have any use for your secondary, or your build can work fine without it's elite (both of which are true in Aspenwood/Jade Quarry/Alliance Battles, as much as most people will refuse to admit it, as those "arenas" are just PvE with a twist and therefore almost anything can win there), bring one of these skills along to destroy Pestilence (I believe most of them work on Ranger spirits, though if not, you could always just roll a Monk...). Until ArenaNet decides to do anything about this particular use of the spirit, you really don't have any other options (except to grit your teeth and bear it, or not play at all).
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Winterclaw
I'm going to have to agree with faer. If pestilance is too much of a problem, either kill it, bring a better condition removal, kill people before they get to the NPC, or kill people with skills like crystal wave.
PS. I like the avatar LoyalSoldier, it reminds me of one of my old dogs.
PS. I like the avatar LoyalSoldier, it reminds me of one of my old dogs.
Crushing Power
I think the problem here is that people are using it to kill friendly NPCs which you shouldn't be able to harm, and that is a fairly serious bug as it can spoil missions for others.
I don't think you should sit back and argue that its acceptable that its OK to abuse existing glitches or loopholes in the game to do such a thing.
/signed
I don't think you should sit back and argue that its acceptable that its OK to abuse existing glitches or loopholes in the game to do such a thing.
/signed
freekedoutfish
I saw this and I knew exactly what the OP was thinking....
"The Luxons are using a decent build to win Aspenwood, and Im unable to think of an effective counter measure. Instead of thinking of a better build, or improving the Kuzacks tactics, I want that entire skill to be nerfed and made ineffective."
..seems like a typical PvP attitude to me.
I fail to see the issue here.
Am I wrong in thinking that the idea is to kill the opposing NPCs in Aspenwood? Correct me if im wrong, because otherwise i've been playing Aspenwood incorrectly for a long time.
How about, instead of complaining, the Kuzacks or luxons just do a better job of protecting their NPCs and keep the necros away from them.
I appreciate that we probably have players killing friendly NPCs using this method, but thats just something we need to deal with. That isnt the only way to cheat in Aspenwood. You have Luxons infiltrating the Kuzack side and opening the gates. The Kuzacks can lead their gaurdians inside the end gate so they cant be killed. If you place elementals and monks one of the inside of the end gate, you have no chance of getting in with constant healing and AoE.
Aspenwood is full of tricks and cheats. But its meant to simulate a war. Ofcourse your going to get people infiltrating the enemy side and cheating. You also get Kuzacks going to the Luxon side and leaching.
Both sides cheat and you just have to outsmart them.
"The Luxons are using a decent build to win Aspenwood, and Im unable to think of an effective counter measure. Instead of thinking of a better build, or improving the Kuzacks tactics, I want that entire skill to be nerfed and made ineffective."
..seems like a typical PvP attitude to me.
I fail to see the issue here.
Am I wrong in thinking that the idea is to kill the opposing NPCs in Aspenwood? Correct me if im wrong, because otherwise i've been playing Aspenwood incorrectly for a long time.
How about, instead of complaining, the Kuzacks or luxons just do a better job of protecting their NPCs and keep the necros away from them.
I appreciate that we probably have players killing friendly NPCs using this method, but thats just something we need to deal with. That isnt the only way to cheat in Aspenwood. You have Luxons infiltrating the Kuzack side and opening the gates. The Kuzacks can lead their gaurdians inside the end gate so they cant be killed. If you place elementals and monks one of the inside of the end gate, you have no chance of getting in with constant healing and AoE.
Aspenwood is full of tricks and cheats. But its meant to simulate a war. Ofcourse your going to get people infiltrating the enemy side and cheating. You also get Kuzacks going to the Luxon side and leaching.
Both sides cheat and you just have to outsmart them.
LoyalSoldier
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Originally Posted by freekedoutfish
I saw this and I knew exactly what the OP was thinking....
"The Luxons are using a decent build to win Aspenwood, and Im unable to think of an effective counter measure. Instead of thinking of a better build, or improving the Kuzacks tactics, I want that entire skill to be nerfed and made ineffective." |
When the luxons started bringing WotP to take care of bonding what did I do? I brought corpse removal.
When the luxons used their turtles what did I do? I brought a ranger to stop them.
Adapting is not the issue here, but it is that in order to adapt I can no longer play the map.
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Originally Posted by freekedoutfish
I fail to see the issue here.
Am I wrong in thinking that the idea is to kill the opposing NPCs in Aspenwood? Correct me if im wrong, because otherwise i've been playing Aspenwood incorrectly for a long time. How about, instead of complaining, the Kuzacks or luxons just do a better job of protecting their NPCs and keep the necros away from them. I appreciate that we probably have players killing friendly NPCs using this method, but thats just something we need to deal with. That isnt the only way to cheat in Aspenwood. You have Luxons infiltrating the Kuzack side and opening the gates. The Kuzacks can lead their gaurdians inside the end gate so they cant be killed. If you place elementals and monks one of the inside of the end gate, you have no chance of getting in with constant healing and AoE. |
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Originally Posted by freekedoutfish
Aspenwood is full of tricks and cheats. But its meant to simulate a war. Ofcourse your going to get people infiltrating the enemy side and cheating. You also get Kuzacks going to the Luxon side and leaching.
Both sides cheat and you just have to outsmart them. |
The counter measure is easy, but not practical because I take myself out of the game to fight it.
LoyalSoldier
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Originally Posted by Winterclaw
I'm going to have to agree with faer. If pestilance is too much of a problem, either kill it, bring a better condition removal, kill people before they get to the NPC, or kill people with skills like crystal wave.
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Really love to know how you kill your own team members with crystal wave.....
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Originally Posted by Winterclaw
PS. I like the avatar LoyalSoldier, it reminds me of one of my old dogs.
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gameshoes3003
I wonder if you can kill Luxon/Kurzick base defenders with that.....
LoyalSoldier
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Originally Posted by gameshoes3003
I wonder if you can kill Luxon/Kurzick base defenders with that.....
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freekedoutfish
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Originally Posted by LoyalSoldier
I
I think you miss the point. A kurzick is killing kurzick NPCs. You can't defend against this without sitting around to heal Gunther for the whole round. [/B] |
Just stop it from working on friendly NPCs. Problem solved!! Just stop friendly team members from doing any damage at all to friendly NPCs.
dgb
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Originally Posted by freekedoutfish
So why do we need to completely remove its effects on all NPCs?
Just stop it from working on friendly NPCs. Problem solved!! Just stop friendly team members from doing any damage at all to friendly NPCs. |
freekedoutfish
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Originally Posted by dgb
Because that completely misses the point of spirits. They are meant to be able to backfire by being a world-effect. In their own effect, they are meant to apply it to both sides evenly. If you want to stop them killing NPCs, it has to be all NPCs, not just your own.
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I appreciate your point, in that its an exploit and its making Aspenwood and similar matches unfair. But if they removed this exploit, there are countless others to use, or someone will find a new one.
I agree that isnt a good arguement, and we should remove all and any exploits we find. But what if changing this skill had a nock-on-effect.
If we nerfed that effect on NPCs simply for Aspenwood, whats to say it wont have a negative effect on another aspect of the game?
There might be a point in the game when you want it to effect and kill an NPC using that skill. It could be extremely beneficial in another part of the game.
It might effect some aspect of PvP or PvE that im not aware of. I honestly think a well organised team of monks, AoE, and the rest could prevent this without the need to drasticly effect an entire skill.
But I could be wrong.
Faer
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Originally Posted by arcanemacabre
You're basically saying...
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Originally Posted by LoyalSoldier
I am sorry, but that is a stupid solution. Because that means I have give up my secondary to camp gunther which basically means I can't play the game and the greifer still wins. Cyanide is a cure for cancer, but no one likes the side effects. Aspenwood is a huge map and the spawn is right in front of gunther. I can't keep running across the map.
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The whole point of Aspenwood is to defend the fort by running across the map. If you don't like running across the map, then you aren't playing the mission as it was designed to be played. But, after all, it is your right to do so. Just like it is the Luxon player's right to cast Pestilence and inflict conditions upon their character. You don't like that Luxon killing Gunther, your teammates don't like you not running Amber. Same basic concept.
Sorry if my solution isn't acceptable to you. However, if you'll please notice, my "solution" will help you win Aspenwood a lot more often than waiting for ArenaNet to see a post buried in a busy section of a fan-forum so that they can start to change a skill will. There are two types of people who play this game: people who take action, and people who wait for other people to take action. You can be a go-getter and kill spirits / heal Gunther, or you can sit around waiting for something that may never come. It's your decision, and your right, to choose either way.
TGgold
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Originally Posted by Faer
So, what, are these people Echo Chaining the Spirit or something? Or are they group joining so that your entire team (other than yourself) are spamming Pestilence to kill Gunther? Last I checked, Pestilence can only be set naturally once every 63 seconds or so (counting cast time and recharge). A full minute (or more, as I don't think anyone will sit there trying to kill the NPC's when their efforts are thwarted every time) is long enough for you to kill the first spirit, run a few pieces of Amber, and get back in time to kill the next spirit. You wouldn't have to camp anything. Besides, if you have a problem with babysitting NPC's/players who don't know how to survive on their own, how do you think Monks feel, given the fact that babysitting idiots is their "job" in this game?
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Or just give the guards Mend-Ailment.
Faer
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Originally Posted by TGgold
I hoenstly dont' think you understand that KURZICKS are killing KURZICKS.
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This entire discussion is beginning to derail the thread, so I'm going to leave you all to your pondering now and go back to being a silent onlooker.
Skyy High
Faer, sorry but you're basically suggesting that, instead of getting rid of/discouraging griefers like ANet has done in the past with the EoE fix, Kurzicks should suck it up and completely change how they play the map, just so they can deal with people who are trying to ruin the game. That's bull. That's like saying, "Well, yeah there are players who use aimbots and speedhacks in CS, but if you wait in a corner for them the entire match you can probably kill them when they come at you."
The problem would be fixed by giving the guards a condition removal. Instead, you want us to deal with griefers. I don't get it, at all.
The problem would be fixed by giving the guards a condition removal. Instead, you want us to deal with griefers. I don't get it, at all.
dgb
I honestly don't see that there's anything wrong wtih the skill. It's not like EoE, which provided ridiculous levels of damage in just about every setting (PVP, general PVE, farming tec.).
If there's a problem with griefing, then it's a problem of scenario design. Putting a "protect x" mission somewhere with random groups is a recipe for disaster to be honest. As it is, I don't think A-Net cares about scrub-PVP, or Factions anymore, so don't expect changes to it.
Leave the skill alone though, it's not the cause of hte problem.
If there's a problem with griefing, then it's a problem of scenario design. Putting a "protect x" mission somewhere with random groups is a recipe for disaster to be honest. As it is, I don't think A-Net cares about scrub-PVP, or Factions anymore, so don't expect changes to it.
Leave the skill alone though, it's not the cause of hte problem.
Curse You
Hmmm, [wiki]Pestilence[/wiki] + [wiki]Toxicity[/wiki] = Uber griever?
The spirit works as intended.
In fact, I propose that this thread be closed on the grounds that there is no proposed fix to the problem, only a complaint.
The spirit works as intended.
In fact, I propose that this thread be closed on the grounds that there is no proposed fix to the problem, only a complaint.
Undivine
Faer, my fellow mod, I'm afraid I have to disagree with you. People do have rights (duh), but ruining peoples fun isn't good for ANet's business. Other games where the developer lets everything slide end up abandoned. Just as people have the right to play the game they paid for however they wish, it is the right of other people to leave the game when it brings them frustration. In fact, I'd guess the number one reason people leave any massive online game is because of the other players.
The definition of any game is its rules, from Tic-tac-toe to Rugby to World of Warcraft. The only requirement to a game's rules is that everyone who plays a particular game must follow the same rules as everyone else they're playing with. Rules are refined for many reasons, and fair play is one of them. Just because they're rules, doesn't mean they must be carved in stone. I think the point of this forum is to allow for suggestions on improving the game.
I don't play Aspenwood anymore, but I am a Kurzick enthusiest and I remember how annoying Aspenwood was. Assuming the Luxons didn't lose any players and that they're not complete muppets, the Kurzicks need every player to work hard and well to succeed. Having to return to base every minute is very cumbersome, and since you have a saboteur, you're already down 1 man as it is.
I think the gatekeepers need a bit more versatility. They need to help keep themselves alive at least a bit.
The definition of any game is its rules, from Tic-tac-toe to Rugby to World of Warcraft. The only requirement to a game's rules is that everyone who plays a particular game must follow the same rules as everyone else they're playing with. Rules are refined for many reasons, and fair play is one of them. Just because they're rules, doesn't mean they must be carved in stone. I think the point of this forum is to allow for suggestions on improving the game.
I don't play Aspenwood anymore, but I am a Kurzick enthusiest and I remember how annoying Aspenwood was. Assuming the Luxons didn't lose any players and that they're not complete muppets, the Kurzicks need every player to work hard and well to succeed. Having to return to base every minute is very cumbersome, and since you have a saboteur, you're already down 1 man as it is.
I think the gatekeepers need a bit more versatility. They need to help keep themselves alive at least a bit.
arcanemacabre
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Originally Posted by Skyy High
The problem would be fixed by giving the guards a condition removal.
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Curse You, this sounds like a "proposed fix" to me. Just thought I'd bring it to your attention since it seems you can't be bothered to read the whole 2 pages of this thread.
Seriously, the mechnics don't have to be changed, nor does the skill (like the EoE fix). Just make it so this can't be abused, with an easy fix of adding a skill or two on some NPCs, and bingo. What is so wrong with that? Honestly, I'd like to hear an intelligent objection to that.
Curse You
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Originally Posted by arcanemacabre
Curse You, this sounds like a "proposed fix" to me. Just thought I'd bring it to your attention since it seems you can't be bothered to read the whole 2 pages of this thread.
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Besides, the root of this problem is a spirit. If you really care so much you would change your secondary to ritualist and take one of their spirit destroying spells, which can kill even friendly spirits. [wiki]Feast of Souls[/wiki], [wiki]Rupture Soul[/wiki], [wiki]Spirit to Flesh[/wiki], all of which are Factions skills.
LoyalSoldier
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Originally Posted by freekedoutfish
So why do we need to completely remove its effects on all NPCs?
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Originally Posted by Faer
The whole point of Aspenwood is to defend the fort by running across the map. If you don't like running across the map, then you aren't playing the mission as it was designed to be played. But, after all, it is your right to do so. Just like it is the Luxon player's right to cast Pestilence and inflict conditions upon their character. You don't like that Luxon killing Gunther, your teammates don't like you not running Amber. Same basic concept.
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Originally Posted by Faer
Besides, if you have a problem with babysitting NPC's/players who don't know how to survive on their own, how do you think Monks feel, given the fact that babysitting idiots is their "job" in this game?
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Originally Posted by Curse You
Hmmm, Pestilence
+ Toxicity = Uber griever? The spirit works as intended. In fact, I propose that this thread be closed on the grounds that there is no proposed fix to the problem, only a complaint. |
I gave a few solutions. Buffing the gate keepers, maby find a way to change pestilence's effect, ect.
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Originally Posted by Curse You
Besides, the root of this problem is a spirit. If you really care so much you would change your secondary to ritualist and take one of their spirit destroying spells, which can kill even friendly spirits. Feast of Souls
, Rupture Soul , Spirit to Flesh , all of which are Factions skills. |
Curse You
Thinking about it, i wouldn't mind too much if they were to give the two Gate Keepers (Gatekeeper Radik and Gatekeeper Poletski) Mend Ailment. At least then grievers wouldn't be able to kill off the most vital NPCs.
Crystal Wave removes all conditions from foes within range. I think that was the effect that they were pointing out, even though it wouldn't work, since they're allies.
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Originally Posted by LoyalSoldier
Really love to know how you kill your own team members with crystal wave.....
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Master Ketsu
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Originally Posted by Faer
Yes, griefing makes the game less fun for a lot of people, but there is nothing in the rules that says you can not kill your own NPC units off with Ranger spirits.
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Crushing Power
It's exploiting a glitch to kill NPCs you should be helping - on purpose. I'm sure there's something that disallows that sort of thing in the rules of EULA.
MithranArkanere
Well... the downside of Disease is that it will tranfer to your allies in PvP.
Solution? make your allies or yourself wear any kind of counter condition/conuter disease/condition transfer.
You can't? Then, do not use yourself...
...but here's a problem:
You can't control who do you join with.
So a player may go to the opposite side and use disease on a chum that agreed to go and walk to all allied NPCs and have a disiease transfer/spread skill... and Grenth' Balance too...
Nice, now you have a traitor in your ranks.
That is the problem, not the skills ou have, but the possibilty of a 7vs9... or even worse scenarios.
Solution? make your allies or yourself wear any kind of counter condition/conuter disease/condition transfer.
You can't? Then, do not use yourself...
...but here's a problem:
You can't control who do you join with.
So a player may go to the opposite side and use disease on a chum that agreed to go and walk to all allied NPCs and have a disiease transfer/spread skill... and Grenth' Balance too...
Nice, now you have a traitor in your ranks.
That is the problem, not the skills ou have, but the possibilty of a 7vs9... or even worse scenarios.
LoyalSoldier
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Originally Posted by Curse You
Thinking about it, i wouldn't mind too much if they were to give the two Gate Keepers (Gatekeeper Radik and Gatekeeper Poletski) Mend Ailment. At least then grievers wouldn't be able to kill off the most vital NPCs.
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Originally Posted by Curse You
Crystal Wave removes all conditions from foes within range. I think that was the effect that they were pointing out, even though it wouldn't work, since they're allies.
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