Varesh VS Shiro VS The Lich

They are three powerful servants of Abaddon. Let's ignore the game data.
For the lich, he is clever for a villain(after become lich), and did not show much power during the game, he let us to fight for him, he got the scepter of Orr and unlock the gate without fight anything, and even with tons of Titan's help,he still got killed by players. I guess he was just a powerful necromancer.
Shiro Tagachi will be the most powerful one since he can build a terrible spirit+afflicted arm and control a mighty dragon all by himself, and took the greatest heroes of Cantha to kill him.
For our Warmarshal Varesh, all she did is call her master to give her new toys, well she was hot but the weakest one. I just don't know why Abaddon did not give the lich and shiro order to open the Realm for him?

Perhaps because they were trapped inside even as he was. He needed an outsider.

Varesh had control of (apparently) the best army in Elona, that's probably why.

And Where is Rurik in this!

i think it is more simple...

perhaps anet already had the idea of terminating the campaigns... so they decided that in the last campaign they would make it the appearance of the Big Boss...

imho...

I don't think her army(without Abbadon's help all she had was mortals) is powerful than the Lich's undead+titan army and Shiro's bound spirit+afflicted.

Not to mention that according to the story line, if it were not for the demonic help, the Kournans and Varesh would have been totally outmatched by the Sunspears at the Consulate Docks mission?

they were all pawns in the scheme of breaking Abbadon from his prison by letting the Lich free the souls in the bloodstones his prison weakened

by shiro yust killing people and making there ghosts into his servants he weakened his prison

and Varesh pretty much did the last things she could to try and weaken the barrier by activating forces in temples and such i think

what about the glint

Shiro, hands down. The lich is a joke, sure, he pulled one over on us, but blame the white mantle and the shining blade for being so stupid (or WERE they...).

Varesh, she was blind and arrogant, easy for Abbaddon to manipulate so he could bring Elona into his realm. Not as powerful as she made herself out to be.

But shiro, shiro was crazy. He didn't need to be manipulated by or manipulate anyone. He just turned all spirits into afflicted, and when it came to get his hands dirty, he could lay down the beat stick. Twice.

Shiro gets my vote.

shiro was one bad azz

shiro FTW!

erm FTL!

wait.. euhmm


shiro > the lich + varesh

Shiro, deffinetly.

Best by category.
Strategy: The Lich (He got one of the most powerful items known, without even walking anywhere)
Dumbest: Varesh
The most likely to kick your *** award: Shiro
Charisma: The Lich (See above)
My army is much better than yours: Shiro (The guy had an ancient dragon under his control)
Most likely to be overpowered: Mallyx the Unyielding (Why was this guy even working for abaddon?)

hmm, shouldn't the lich win as he did have supposedly 1 of the most powerful armies in the world, but mind you we defeated that army didn't we, and we the afflited and the kournens/abaddon either way i vote for the lich as besides from being a powerful necro, he does have the sceptor of orr (sp) but then again that is imo

though in my heart i have to love varesh she reminded me of a the foolish evil blonde girl type person who rushes into things and believes she is the best, just that she was not blonde.

o well i still think gwen owns all of them so beat that

The lich himself is a pansy, and a lousy leader - imagine what Shiro could have done with Titans behind him, instead of exploding zombies, windup toys and a dragon with the flu? I'm not even going to touch Varesh and the Lavender Brigade.

'Course if Mallyx and his buddies ever get out of DoA we're all toast. Same with Kanaxai and Urgoz. Luckily these three seem to be homebodies.

The Lich and Shiro were Abaddon servents by FORCE. They were corrupted and had no choice in the matter. Varesh worshiped Abaddon by her own free will. Perhaps that is what set her aside from the others and was what was needed to bring on Nightfall.

wasnt shiro manipulated by abbadon as the fortune teller who gives him his fortunes was a agent of abbadon and was manipulating shiro into killing the emporer and reaking havock all over cantha.
Being very skilled in the weapons he wielded he was a very difficult enemy to defeat but was eventually defeated. shiro's madness was all down to abbadon and his manipulation of shiro, he relied on the fortune teller, maybe not to begin with but eventually believed her word as law/fact that what she said must and will happen.
were shiro to have faith in his emporer, abbadon wouldnt have been able to get as far as he did even with the help of his other pawns.

//Shiro Owns all

All 3 of them were manipulated by abbadon and without his help would be nothing. Abbadon manipulated Kayhet who in turn manipulated Varesh. He manipulated vizier kihlbron into destroying Orr. He manipulated Shiro VIA the fortune teller.

They each had an army provided by Abbadon in some way or another at their disposal:
The Lich had the Undead, the Mursaat, the Jade, the White Mantle, Undead Rurik, and the Titans.
Shiro had Bound Spirits, The Afflicted, and Kuunavang. (Possibly the Am Fah as they were one of the reasons the plague spread)
Varesh had The Kournan Army, The Margonites, The Hunger, The Drought, The Blasphemy, and Torment Creatures.

So, if we go by how strong they are without Abbadon's help then Varesh is Clearly it because she is the only one with an army at her back without Abbadon's help.

If you put these armies against each other I believe Shiro, even with Kuunavang, would be dead last. Numberswise he has no chance. I believe the Lich Army would own with the Titans and Armageddon Lords. Varesh is in the middle.

The Mursaat and the White Mantle and their Jade structures weren't allies of the lich, actually, you were his ally until the very end.

Mallyx > Abbadon > Varesh > Lich > Shiro (Only if Abaddon could Move)

Mallyx> Varesh > Lich > Shiro > Abaddon (If he is static like in final mission)

in terms of pure power, Shiro is the strongest, but he's a lousy strategest. the Lich is the smartest, and no pushover, so I'm betting on him in anything but a straight fight.

hmm it is quite possible that the forbidden scroll the vizier read was one linked to Abbadon

i guess Mallyx got some power and armies Abaddon had left otherwise he should go and help Abaddon like the lich and Shiro.

By all means is Mallyx a powerful being but is he as powerful provided he never had abbadons creatures serving him?

and abbadon would happen to be the greatest strategest their is, he manipulated all those he needed, through corruption, trickery or by whatever else.

the question still remains who will win out of the 3(shiro,varesh and lich)
why not post the pros and cons of each enemy and then evaluate why they will win.

no armies no help just on their own.


/Mallyx flashed his barbie underwear on sky tv+ xD

sorry double post, it was mallyx

Game Context:
Abaddon has Varesh + Army, Lich, Shiro, Titans, Marganites, etc.

Varesh has Army

Shiro has Afflicted and the armors. Can kill anyone who has not ascended outright.

Lich has us and the undead (until Hells Precipice; at Hell's Precipice he had the Titans).

Until the Lich showed us who he was, we followed the Lich's orders. The Lich cannot die unless he's in the circle.

So let's face it, army wise, we own them all, so the Lich wins.

Out of Game Context:

Lich - smart, shapeshifting, control over the undead (can summon them at will - appears out of no where).

Shiro - seemed unnaturally overpowered with his death wail (when he was human). Needs humans to create his army. More Warrior than "Paragon" so he relies on bullying people around and revenge, over strategy and intelligence.

Honestly, I haven't faced Varesh or Mallyx, so no comment.

We know that intelligence can allow people to obtain victory (just going around killing things may not be a good thing - see Ice Caves of Sorrow Mission and attacking Mursatt without being infused).

But as for ingame powers, yes, Shiro has more powers and more powerful powers than the Lich.

If we did not know about the Lich or his plans, we'd still follow the powerful mage as his army of peace (and thus making the Lich the most powerful character in the game).

Good point, Pick Me. The Lich can't die unless on a bloodstone. He can just go book a summer beach house in Kryta and stay there, nearest bloodstone is all the way in Maguuma.

I think...

Lich = Very smart and strategic. I mean, in Prophecies you don't even know the true "FUBAR BIGBADGUYD00D" and your destiny until Hell's. Before that you're jumping around from being Rurik's errand boy to beginning a life in Kryta to ruining that life in Kryta by killing the Mantle, seeking Ascension, and then making your way past a million Stone Summit/Mursaat/Mantle just to reach the Ring of Fire.

Shiro = Standard "strong but stupid" guy. First off, unlike the lich, it's pretty obvious, even if you never played Factions and simply saw the trailer, that he's going to be who you face off with at the end. He didn't plan things out that much, he was more of a "ME HURT JOO LONG TIEM!!11oneone!!" person.

Varesh = Not much to say. She had an army to begin with, even if she was good, she still has the Kournans, while the Lich and Shiro had to round up a bunch o' dead guys and spirits to do their bidding. In other words, Varesh has the royal bloodline on her side to gain an army, while the Lich and Shiro need to get all hyped up on magical stuff to have any control over an army.

not quite true Eldin...

Shiro had to die... and the Lich could summon the undead without effort and had an unlimited resource... the scepter was just to awake the Titans...

besides... in terms of power... the lich is strong too... it can rip off enchantments and each of its wand attacks deals over 200dmg... and its very very smart...

but still... my vote goes for Factions' Shiro... Meditation of the something is a dreadfull skill...

Aren't those undead just poor Orr people's corpse?

Vizer was smart but i don't know why he got tricked by Terick, maybe the Charr army made him lost his cool.

I know. But he still had to find a mass amount of corpses. Plus, I'm still in favor of the idea that he didn't raise the Orrians from the dead, per se. Rather, the dark magic caused by the Cataclysm was so much for the Orrians that their souls were scarred and they were unable to pass on to the rift.

Oh God, I'm never going to be able to fight him again without thinking that and cracking up.

Shiro is amazing strong and skilled
he is also easy to take down, i find that varesh with her AoE can be annoying to the most, shiro hex cover and use any strategy you like and you know that he will use battle scars and impossible odds, mediation of the reaper can be removed, just damage the fool, lich is not as weak as he is made out to be, rips enchantments, steals health, sticks you in lava when he feels like it and in prophecies he must be bought down to 0 health about 4 times or so.
varesh without her army is no match for shiro or the lich.
the lich and shiro would be a interesting fight considering without their minions they are both powerful foes and with the lichs skills and shiro's strength it will be interesting.
you shouldnt just jump to shiro i guess, after some thought i looked back at the apparently weak and looked at how much potential he had, i believe he could take shiro, even with mediation of the reaper, impossible odds and battle scars, always keep in mind that the lich is not always as he appears.

//Mallyx ; /laughs

Shiro, no contest really.

In a head on fight Between Lich, Shiro and Varesh, my money is on Shiro, His Battle scars + Impossible odd gives him both good offence and healing with a cast time, and since non of the others have stance enders, Shiro is pretty much covered, Varesh comes in 2nd easily, being able to do AoE damage and painful blows with a scythe, Lich isn't a fighter, so he comes in last, but I don't think he'd care, since it's not this style.

In a Big war between them and their armies, the Lich, being the smartest of the 3 would pull off an easy with, combining the power of the titan army with his tactical know-how. Varesh has more tactics than Shiro, but her army isn't that great, they are merely human, and compared to the Shiro-Ken and Afflicted, they are outmatched in force, but with stratagy they could over come them, and if we account for the demons Varesh uses (which shouldn't count since they follow Abbadon, not her) she could have a good chance.

I would like to say something about your last sentence... um yeah there dead and imprisoned in the Realm also... therefore he probably choose Verash as the next best to open the gate to the Realm of Torment.

Hmm, hard one I suppose. As to in game when you fight them, Varesh or Shiro were the hardest. The Lich dropped both at the end of prophecies and in the gate of madness. Shiro either was dead in minutes or total party wipe (at least with hench - @#$%@#'s do not run back and require you to kill their bound spirits (death in 20 seconds if Shiro initiates meditation of the reaper, you often do not have the firepower to end it and if you go to kill the bound spirits then it takes around 20 seconds - either way a full party wipe). Varesh is the most consistent difficulty. However you kill her several times, her final form was harder to beat than Shiro in Gate of Madness to me though still not *that* hard. I had more trouble with other bosses - will be interesting to see them in "hard mode" though

If you mean lore wise - the lich. As other pointed out he is immortal unless killed on a bloodstone (well, unless he is dead undead like in Gate of Madness - then he at least goes somewhere else). Given enough time he would *have* to get lucky, or the other person eventually tire. If we had not been on the bloodstone and trying to power the Gate of Komalie then we would have been screwed.

I suppose you mean pre-nightfall as they were trapped with him after you kill them (what happened to that whole envoys having a special place for Shiro - I guess a bound Abaddon still had enough power to stop that). My guess was that Elona was a "special" place - much as the bloodstones were. Varesh hit specific temples - if all it took was a desecration of that particular God's temples *someplace* then there were MUCH easier targets. My guess is that it also required other things to be true, which both the Lich and Shiro were working towards, basically the temples were only vulnerable with piousness at a very low and discord across the globe.

As to why Varesh, obviously she is the most powerful one that could be swayed. I would have to say Kormir went through hell (Torment?) and was only touched, not one of his servants so the chances of getting the Sunspears on his side were pretty slim. Obviously the Kournans were the number two power. It would be interesting to have more lore on *how* she was swayed - Morghan doesn't really say other than he was blind and refused to see it.

Shiro is the definent winner....lich was nothing really just a powerful necro and varesh well....she was a pawn and could only fight when she had demons...so Shiro wins....hands down.

I think......

In a battle of the strongest - Shiro

In a battle of the smartest - The Lich/Vizier Khillbhron

In a battle of armies - Shiro (Shiro'ken) /Varesh (Margonites/Kournans)