Lost Respect for a High Rank Guild or Two...

As long as the invitees understand the terms of the agreement, I don't have a problem with this.

But to take advantage of someone's naivety shows a distinct lack of honour i.e. you should've known that once I received your 100K I'd kick you after 5 minutes. I've got no time for that behaviour. Go rob your grandmother for 100K next???

The worst thing about this is the constant spamming of these invitation sales by the same people every 5 seconds that I've noticed in RA recently. Worse than Kamadan...

eF won the celestial tourny and are ranked 3 on the ladder. Your guild is not even ranked Taurucis. I think Conzpi knows a bit more about high-end PvP groups than you do.

Hasn't this become a flamefest of PvE vs PvP lol.

Of course the high ranked guild has a right to invite whomever they wish. And a farmer has a right to spend their money however they wish.

GvG/HA guilds work hard at teamwork and metagame. No one disputes that. Then some use their hard work to enjoy prestige... and sell that prestige to PvErs.

Farming IS work, too, though. It's deathly boring (imho). So is selling. Devising solo and team builds for farming is an interesting task as well. In order to buy the pretty shiny items and armor and the PvP guild membership, a person has to do a lot of it. If being rich and buying your way into a prestige cape tickles your fancy, by all means.

It appears to both parties that it's a win-win situation. I just think it's sad, but my opinion means nothing in the long run.

Just like to address the poster who claimed that PvErs don't share the comeraderie that a PvP guild does. I'm afraid that was written out of spite, was it not? It was an inaccurate statement to say the least.

A question to those guilds who are "selling membership" [as I've seen a couple of you in the thread] - do you actually let the buyers play with you guys [ha/ta/gvg etc], or is it just for a pretty cape for awhile? Because, imo, showing off a shiny cape and a chance to play with incredibly skilled pvpers are two different things that could attract two seperate groups of buyers. Just curious.

Also, congrats to eF for winning the CT.

today in kaineng center:



tbh, who cares? i dont. if someone needs to make his money by selling places in his guild - fine. if someone needs to show off by buying one - fine. if someone needs to kick the buyers out again - fine.
their own fault if they take the risk of buying themselves a place in the guild - and i dont care if the ones selling places make their money in an 'unfair way'. its all just a shift of cash - if joe napster or bob 'elite pvper 'yOUr aLL nApZ'' spends the money is of no moment at all.

I cleaned up some of the trolling here. Please keep things on topic - this is a warning.

Guilds are guilds. What they do (or want to do) is the reason why it formed.

A guild that farms is there because the people in that guild share the same interest. They like to farm, but not with PUGs, they want to farm with people who they can get to know, share a laugh with, trust, and relate to. They know each other, and more importantly, they know each others skill level. They know who needs support, and who gives support. They grow together.
They do this to gain wealth in a game, and to have fun.

A GvG guild is formed so that many players can band together and test their skill. They put trust in each other, learn about one another, and share a lguh. This group helps each other become better as a team at what they enjoy doing, like farming, and they grow together in hopes to become a high rank.

Guilds are the same. The above guilds are related on so many levels. If one guild looks for fame, another will focus on wealth.

A famous GvG guild, like eF (for example) are a team, a group of allies. People who have similar interests in gaming. If they wish to make some gold on the side to look "shiny", they do it by using the only thing they have worked towards: Fame.

A farming guild, like SMS (for example) Works as a team towards gaining wealth (or "shinyness"), but may also want a bit of fame. If they want fame, they gain it doing what they are good at: Farming. (I feel this needs an example) Example:most know SMS as a guild where a lot of farmers are. Alot of these farmers (like Witte Was, if u dont know him, scan the thread creators of the farming thread) post their builds and get to be known as great farmers.

Farming and GvG guilds are the same. Its like a profession named Wealth (W) and another profession named Fame (F). A farming guild is a W/F, while a GvG guld is a F/W. They are very similar.

Point im trying to prove here is that using what you're best at to gain what you cant get, is perfectly acceptable. A farmer can't post his build on forums, he doesnt get fame...which he wants, but cant get any other way. A GvGer wants some wealth, but can't get a party to farm with cuz he is not good at it (cuz he specializes in PvP)...so he uses whats available to him to gain wealth. What does he have? Fame. Sell a bit of reputation to other, less talented PvPers.

It is a win,win situation. A farmer with plenty of gold wants some fame, buy a bit of fame. A GvGer with a great reputation wants some gold, sell some fame.

Its supply and demand. We help each other.

A guild has a right to use what they have available to them to get what they want.

~Silent

This reply (especially bold text) sums up everything that is wrong about both this practice and the fools on both sides who do it.

This is NOT a pvp game. It is marketed to appeal to PVE players just as much as PVP. A clear example of what somebody called snobbishness earlier....although I just call it being a bloody idiot . I bought the game for PVE, I wasn't even aware of the PVP side for a long time. I have built up a lot of money by just playing, with 10 different characters through 3 different campaigns. Not just killing trolls. Just like I am sure you didn't just copy other peoples builds as I have seen suggested.

Also the reason that trim is rare and admired is the way you are meant to get it. You have cheapened one of the highest honours worth striving for. I have just discovered the joys of PVP. I was thinking I would like to practice and get good then one day get such an amazing honour for my guild! But now I don't give a ---- about GvG, because you have proven yourselves to have the same mentality as ebay morons. And all my hard work to maybe one day get that trim would not be recognised....instead people would wonder how much it cost me.

When I voiced my opinion in Temple of Balth earlier, the seller said that Anet have said it is fine. If that is the case GG Anet...you are encouraging people to give many, yet another reason to lose interest in this game.

Oh and he actually likened it to selling a torment shield etc. For the winners of a GvG tournament not to be able to see the difference, really makes me despair for the state and future of this game that I still love...... although it is getting harder to remember why.

mcsumo

you had some very good points there, at first i thought u were tolling on it as others were earlier, but u hit it dead on the head.... glad to see there r others on here who do understand what i am talking about....

Its like they r renting out a gold metal from the Olympics....

wow eF and simular guilds selling invites are playing with fire. This has the potiental to blow up in thier face. All it takes is one clown running around KC - LA - DoA - HA or even RA to sully their reputation. And imagine the unneeded guild drama this could create LOL. As it is selling invites to anybody and everyone that has an extra 100k a month does cheapen their hard earned cape in the eyes of some of the pve and pvp population. But hey when you need GP you need GP what does it hurt by pimping out your cape? IMO if you have a guild that can sell its cape on the street corner in Cantha why not sell it? Let everyone wear gold capes IMO (atleast those that win them, play as an alternate for them, or can afford them.)

congrats to eF for the solid victories over EW btw.. you guys earned your trim to be sure ... as to the rest of your members congrats on the solid investment of your 100k a month the capes look nice my next question is will you guys be allowing your investors a say on what the capes logo is? I mean they are spending 100k a month for a cape after all.

good hunting

If I remember rightly, the selling of spots in a guild goes way way way back. I think cissy boys tried to sell a spot or 2 in their guild on ebay, back in May/June 2005, then as soon as the first tournament ended spots in high rank guilds were being sold also. In short it's not a new thing.

Personally I think it's in a grey area. On one side, running a top GvG Guild is an expensive affair. Just 1 tournament round can cost 3 sigils for a hall change. In short the money has to come from somewhere and so long as both parties are told what the deal is, then it's not really a scam as people can spend or do with their money what they like.

The negative side is that it does somehow cheapen the achievements somehow, like selling shares in the world cup.

In my limited exposure to PvP I feel that True Respect for a set of players is not because of the color cape they wear, but how they play the game. I have seen and heard of some fantastic games and sportsmanship, and I know both Puff and eF have exemplified both.

On a lighter note. It seems as tho Puff are going the Guild Wars route. Pay once and play for as long as you like, while eF are going the Wow way. with a monthly free.

Gold capes are permantent. Silver and bronze capes melt away.

Same might be said of Wow and GW (hides)

It would be interesting to see AN's take on the selling of Guild spots for cape'd Guilds. I have a feeling that this practice may well become the de-facto practice for successful guilds in the future. After all several 100K income per 'original' guild member has the potential to be a nice source of revenue.

I had a look in the Eula and it did'nt mention anything about it, except selliing slots guilds on ebay(with no reference or inference to the guild of that name ofc ), so I guess some kinda official steer may be in order.

100k per invite for a golden trim? I'm sorry but since when can you put a price tag on honor and glory?

Apparently when you win one

I'd like to quote this post for truth, and highlight that by no means I dont mean to say that PvE guilds don't share the comradery(sp?) just like pvp guilds do. What I only meant was to the guy claiming that PVP is all about self gain, backstab and whatever to point him completely wrong.

Badly worded insult from me and I regret it because it doesn't show what I really meant - insult the poster only. My post now makes it seem that I think about all PvE:rs like that which is not true.

And argh.... We feel that the goldcape is still an honor - just like the rest of the guilds that have it. Now if ~50 random guys from hundreds of thousands have the cape - so what? It makes the sellers (us) very happy because we sort of think it as we get shiny items from pvp:ing instead of having to farm them in pve. And we believe that everyone in the PVP scene still know who the original core members / gvg squad of eF is. If they dont - we don't care what they think about the guild selling invites. (not that we care even if they dont know the squad : )

what bothers me more then guilds selling capes is the general attitude of a lot of players out there.
the fact that u only want to play for the rewards (emotes, capes, weapons,...) is very sad if u ask me. I always compare this attitude with the attitude of a dog, he will rollover IF he get a cookie... Sure the rewards are a nice bonus, but should not be the main incentive to PvP (or even Pve).
U don’t tell me that farming gold, farming the ladder with a gimmick build is fun…its boring and repetitive. The process that leads to the “reward” are not satisfying in any sense.
Sure u can get the so-called “rewards” but the process to get there is not “rewarding”.

What u should PvP for is to actually enjoy your self in the matches u play and prepare for. Like making up strategies and stretching your self to the limits of your capabilities to beat another guild.

Don’t misunderstand me I don’t have anything against people who farm, a person that farms his own ecto’s / shards to get his fow armor is doing it for the right reasons. But people that just hunt trolls for a year long and then buy every single ecto…well I think u get the picture.

The general thought is:
Its not reward that matters, its who u get there.

If we wanted jsut the reward, we wouldn't spend countless of hours playing, practicing and planning together. We would do some real life work, since the graphics card isn't more then ~3-4 days of regular work. I really don't need to justify myself but I think it's good for the PvE players to know too - PVP is just like any team competition in real life.

I don't see how a clown running around will destroy their reputation. The reputation of the core players will always be fairly good and recognized as one of the best GW players, and the reputation of having that cape is virtually nonexistent to the people that know you can buy the cape trims. All this does it hurt the overall community with cape trims, since it's less likely to be respected because of the fact that most people who aren't up to date on which guilds are selling invites are now suspicious whether or not you bought the trim.

why do they need money anyway?!? I thought pvp players hate playing pve.
You don’t need money for pvp unless you want to look nice and i thought they didn’t care about that either. What ever :S

Still sad tho but hey its their own decision and people should know they wont get an invite from top ladder guilds like that.

tbh the biggest thing wrong in what conzpi is doing, is that he sells too low. Prices used to be 300k for membership, and now with gold cape it's 100k? Makes no sense.


edit:
That's the thing. You can't get ingame money playing GvG, but it takes so much time to play, you don't have time to farm etc. This is an alternative for getting money. I don't care about ig gold (PvP characters are superior, so no reason to bother), but if someone wants to play with shiny items, why not let them? It's nothing away from you.

1) Sigils
2) Req 7 items
3) PvE Weapons/Armor

Wtf is wrong with people saying about "Disrespect, shame, dishonor.." ?
I find nothing wrong or lame in what they are doing. And why do you care about what do they do with their gold ? Of course they are hardcore pvpers and spend more time on pvp, but does it mean they can't play pve, can't have shiny 15k armor with shiny item ? "I belive they are pvper, they hate pve, they don't care about vanity items, armor, and gold.." That's just your assumption and pretty funny.

You said they should play HA and earn gold there "to be more honorable", that's just silly. GvG is serious pvp too ( and higher level than HA), winning that is bigger achievement than winning HA. It doesn't have in game reward like Sigil or gold item, so they use their GvG achievement to earn gold. It is same "honorable" as selling sigils if that is what you mean.

And others care about noobs with gold/silver cape : So you care about their guild tag, their gold/silver cape to rate them good or not ? I think people with those gold/silver cape can only show their "leetness" to PvE'ers, because any PvP'er who watch obs often will remember pretty good true members of top guilds, really.

Please don't pretend to know what pvp players think. If I want to look shiny - let me, and dont say I can't and that I play the 'wrong part of the game' wtf?

@ Conzpi, re: last page.

here are the slightly comedic rules from announcement

Rules: DON'T talk on alliance chat, DON'T whisper to the officers besides the one who recruited you, DON'T visit alliance guild halls(EVER!). Failing to comply with the rules will result in kick (Msg questions to your recruitment officers) members=no GVG (with us)

they can gvg/ha/ra/ta whatever with eachother if they want, we rarely (core team) do anything but gvg

Please no trolling or flamming. I think this topic is of interest to folks, but I don't want to see anymore of this PvE vs PvP debate.

I honestly do not see any problem with what they are doing. The effort involved in farming in pve for the sums of money we are talking about is totally negligable, compared to the effort involved in attaining the level these people have within PvP. Anyone with half an ounce of sense will recognise that this is a photo oppertunity, a chance to grab some screenshots of your character in a trimmed cape, and maybe the privalege of walking around in it for a while. Providing that the buyer is aware that this is what they are purchasing, and are happy with the arrangement then there really isnt any problem with this at all. All that these guilds have done is found a way to make in game money without PvE'ing or HAing for it.

I would be more concerned about the guilds reputation in terms of what these new "members" are saying and doing in game than anything else for the period of time that they are wearing your cape and tag; and how this effects the reputation the guild(s). That is of course assuming the guild(s) in question are bothered by such things.

Its perfectly legitimate imo.

Yes its perfectly fine and all and yes they can do whatever they want, but I have lost respect for guilds who sell their honor.

Of course it should be allowed though, its fine and well within user agreements.

Oh the respect for the core players will always be there from the semi to hardcore pvpers (gvgers) or observer mode junkies. But to the rest of the community (pve and casual pvpers) it's the tag and cape that will be notice and noted if some "clown" decides to rant and rave in some full random district. When you wear a cape you play a role in the guilds reputation and the overall apperence of the guild in the eyes of the community.

added this side note off topic: Thinking about your post put a funny image in my head of one of the core players on a championship team having to defend the fact that he earned his gold trim to a bunch of pve elitists in DoA or ToA because they believe him to have bought his well earned cape. That would be an intresting converstion to read.

All those who are saying how perfectly ok this is, not against the EULA yadda yadda yadda, are missing the point.

Just because something is legal does not mean it isn't morally wrong. It is against the spirit of the game, which these high ranking guilds are meant to epitomise.

For many people who PvP the goal of reaching that level and one day getting the gold trim themselves, is/was a driving force behind their desire to keep playing and improve.

Only a very few of us GW players bother to post in threads like this, so overall, maybe thousands of players could now be disillusioned with GW as a direct result of this unsavoury practice. There are plenty of other games that might get their attention.

I mean seriously everyone starts crying about GW2 news 'killing the game' but that is years down the line. Right here right now we have a few elitist 'types' (for want of a better word ) spoiling the goal that many aspire to.

Enjoy your gold while you can boys since IMHO you have directly influenced the decline of this game.

Such a conversation will never take place, because what ever these "pve elitists" think about it, he doesn’t care. He him self knows that he got that cape, and he doesn’t need to prove to some random w/mo that he got that gold trim. All the people that matter know he got that trim.
(same goes for the majority of the pve'ers that don’t care about the opinions of pvp players...)

A lot of u think that a person with a gold trim is a very good pvp player… but if u see some1 with a tormented shield do u think he is a leet pve player?
Well I sure don’t think so… because he could have gotten all the gems without even stepping 1 foot into Doa… same goes for all the “1337” pve items.

So my point is… selling rare pve items…selling rare pvp “items”… are more or less the same
And the person that is using those "items" doenst tell anything about that persons pve/pvp skills

If they didnt care about what otherts think whats the use of the cape?The reason people want uber gear is to loot elite and also get respect for it, otherwise it wouldnt be worth the effort would it?

I think that if someone wore a gold cape and noone would think he is skilled he would be pretty pissed off about it, working so hard and then getting that in return.

But, then again if you want to be seen as skilled you shouldnt sell invites.

Money or fame, wich one do YOU choose?

u have to notice that i say he doenst care what PVE elitist think.
if it would be a pvp player with the same amount of xp in high lvl pvp it would matther...


i dont play pvp to prove to other people im "good" at it... and I don’t need a cape to show it.
the cape, respect, glory... its all bonus. It is not a main goal. But i guess thats for everyone different.

I have to admit that ranking a shit talker feels damn good… eat my tiger u fool

I think the easiest way to settle this arguement would be for Anet to do what all the other guilds have been doing. Set up a monthly charge for guilds to get a Gold Trim. Say...£5.99 A month?

until anet gives the winning team of every gvg gold for winning, i see no problem for top guilds to sell membership like this (hint for anet: do it).

Wouldn't it be a fun thing if you could buy and sell emotes as easily as a cape? I mean, GvGers get trim, HoHers get fame, PvErs get pretty stuff, it should all be interchangeable.

That would be cool.

I was wondering why people from [eF] were selling membership in HA.
I'm an officer in my guild, but only send one invitation out since I am.
I have asked a few people if they are interested, but they have good guilds themself. I try to be carefull with my invitations, since I want to be reasonably sure someone will fit in the guild. Other people will stay on friends list, but never get an invitation from me.

This does not differ that much from what [eF] is doing, only they will invite people in their guild (for money).
But the core and alliance are forbidden areas, according to conzpi.
So they just created some kind of 'friends' list that also has the benefits of chatting with each other. And you get a nice shiney cape. All for 100K / month. Those people are not really in the guild, that's the core and alliance.

I don't think that's all bad. But it could impact the name of the guild.
If they don't care about that, it's quite ok.
I know the individuals that won the tournament will be known in the PvP community, which is probably enough for them.

Actually, the fact that they kick the person earns my respect back. People who want to pay their way into a good guild without being good themselves have a lesson to learn. If you want to join a high ranked guild, pm a member with your stats and ask to try out. Prove your worthy. Farmertards who think skill can be bought deserve to be exploited like this.

Its their guild, they earned it. They have the right to sell invites and kick them.