Are we losing sight of the Big Picture? - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

Anarkii

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

-None-

R/Me

02 Apr 2007 at 05:05 - 41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorglubb

The best game of all times was nearly a book: Planescape Torment.
Every other RPG after that one felt like canned stories and cliches.

Baldur's Gate series(2, specifically) was a lot more than that in my book

Neverwinter Nights came sort of close, but never matched BG2 in terms of storyline and immersion. Planescape:Torment was ofcourse gold. If only MMO quest designers take a leaf out of those games...

Derek

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Aug 2005

Finland

Guardians of the Underworld

W/Mo

02 Apr 2007 at 05:38 - 42

As far as I liked NF, I have to admit that Prophecies had the best story and world from all of the GW campaigns. Can't wait to see what GW:EN is like.

Superdarth

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2006

02 Apr 2007 at 11:24 - 43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sujoy

your world seems to be limited only to Ascalon, step out of character and enter the role of an Elonian person, and BOOM! You feel the threat of the invading Kournans?

This man is right.

I think that the OP's world is indeed limited to Ascalon, and nothing we say can get rid of that feeling.

Nightfall brought the same feeling or even a stronger feeling then Factions did for me, its just a matter of playing Nightfall as an Elonian. If you feel Ascalon while playing in Elona ofcourse you wont feel much for it.

But not many players care about the lore or the story in the first place, and to be honest i dont even think many of them are enjoying the game!

Commander Ryker

Site Contributor

Join Date: Jun 2005

R/

02 Apr 2007 at 13:39 - 44

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

Honestly, I don't think we were really supposed to "care" in the sense that we are concerned for their well-being. The Tyrians were the down-trodden, beaten down by an enemy that was just better than them, and they were forced to leave their homeland. You felt for your character because they no longer had a homeland, it was "seared" and all but destroyed. In Tyria, we tend to feel the need to help others because we have nowhere else to go. We pursue our destinies, or the "Prophecies", rather.

The Elonians, or more specifically, the Istanis still have their homeland, virtually untouched. The big threat is coming from far away, and you're meeting it head on, already prepared to destroy it like it was your bitch. Along the way, you get to be the "cool outlaws", the "black sheep" in a smug community, and working alongside an old "super villain" like he was your best bud. You're almost the bad guy throughout the entire continent of Elona, only to encounter the root of all evil. There's never a moment where you need to feel bad for anyone, cause you pretty much are bad, kinda. We are the vigilantes in Elona.

Cantha? Well, it was somewhere in the middle. Something threatened their homeland, and we play the doctors, in a sense. We're sent out to heal the land and get to the bottom of the "infection". It becomes more or less our job to defeat evil, whereas the others it's our choice, lore-wise.

QFT

Well said.

Mordakai

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Aug 2005

Kyhlo

W/

02 Apr 2007 at 13:51 - 45

The main problem with this cliche "save the world from impending Doom" plot, is it's been done. Over and over again.

And frankly, it doesn't work for MMORPGs, because it's a linear quest, so once you've save the world with one character, it gets a little stale saving it again with 9 other characters. (And then you think about the 3 million other people who've saved the world, and begin to wonder what exactly is the big accomplishment)?

Guild Wars 2 is supposed to solve this problem, although I'm not sure how.

But, as for the series "moving away from Ascalon"... rejoice!

Eye of the North should be right up your alley.

Deleet

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2006

Denmark

Rule Thirty Four [prOn]

Mo/

02 Apr 2007 at 14:06 - 46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

The main problem with this cliche "save the world from impending Doom" plot, is it's been done. Over and over again.

And frankly, it doesn't work for MMORPGs, because it's a linear quest, so once you've save the world with one character, it gets a little stale saving it again with 9 other characters. (And then you think about the 3 million other people who've saved the world, and begin to wonder what exactly is the big accomplishment)?

Guild Wars 2 is supposed to solve this problem, although I'm not sure how.

But, as for the series "moving away from Ascalon"... rejoice!

Eye of the North should be right up your alley.

Do you have any idea, of another quest that would be good?

Saving the world seems like a good choice.

Kook~NBK~

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2005

A little chalet outside Drok's

Natural Born Killaz

02 Apr 2007 at 14:33 - 47

Playing though Nightfall, I thought that the world was given a lot more depth than the other 2 campaigns.

In cantha, going through the city, you see all of these canthan peasants who either are just standing around or moving slowly. Not saying or doing anything, just window dressing. The horrid story-line ruined the fun of getting into the lore about the place for me.

In Tyria, there's alot of the same thing - go to the Ascalon Settlement and you'll see the occasional "Gee, I miss Tyria" and that's pretty much it.

In Nightfall, you find kids running around playing. There's a funeral service going on in one of the villages in Issnur Islands, And in Kourna, many of the villages you come across have got NPC's talking about what's going on with the story. It's the many details like these that give the Elonian landscape more depth than the others.

Sir Skullcrasher

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2005

California

15 over 50 [Rare]

W/Mo

02 Apr 2007 at 17:10 - 48

wow, we're taking a game seriously now aren't we? Why? I mean, A-Net isn't created by us nor do we (the community) have any power to direct what they're doing.

Can't we just let A-Net do what they do best? Create a game and let us (the community) try it out. Instead of having peoples complain or think of different ideas for them to implement.

Mordakai

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Aug 2005

Kyhlo

W/

02 Apr 2007 at 18:02 - 49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deleet

Do you have any idea, of another quest that would be good?

Saving the world seems like a good choice.

For most single player games, it is.

My point (which seemed to get lost), is that it doesn't fit a MMORPG very well, because you literally have millions of Heroes saving the world all the time!

My idea (expanded from the Dragon example in PCGamer), is that Players could change the landscape of the world by their choices and actions . Ie, quests would make some mark on the persistant world, and players get to "vote" (through their actions) of how the world would turn out.

I'd much rather take part in actions that had a permanent (or even semi-permanent) effect on a peristant world, than to go through the same linear storyline 10 different times.

Caith-Avar

Academy Page

Join Date: Mar 2007

Germany / Playing on European Region.

Society of Life and Death [sold]

Me/Mo

02 Apr 2007 at 18:32 - 50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

My point (which seemed to get lost), is that it doesn't fit a MMORPG very well, because you literally have millions of Heroes saving the world all the time!

I remember coming to Kaineng Center one day, not too long after the release of Factions, my characters (as I play too many different ones for the time I can play) had not even left the city, and there were people on that Upper level of the city and shouted: "You can go home, folks, Shiro is dead."
I guess, I cannot do anything else than heartily agree with you here.

I like that optional event-like quest idea (Dragon example) very much, and I wouldn't mind if it brought some changes to the landscape (I find the changes made to the land in Cantha, for example, already interesting) or NPCs reactions or stuff. But - make it semi-permanent. Everything else is nearly bound to create some serious ef-up.

Mordakai

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Aug 2005

Kyhlo

W/

02 Apr 2007 at 20:18 - 51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caith-Avar

I remember coming to Kaineng Center one day, not too long after the release of Factions, my characters (as I play too many different ones for the time I can play) had not even left the city, and there were people on that Upper level of the city and shouted: "You can go home, folks, Shiro is dead."
I guess, I cannot do anything else than heartily agree with you here.

Holy spoilers!

Yeah, I remember when I first started playing GW, (in July, 2005), I made it to Piken Square. There I found out Althea was dead, because people were selling her ashes for 100g! That kind of thing (from a story perspective), is the worst part about MMORPGs. And why, I feel, the best use of the unique culture of MMORPGs has not yet been harnessed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caith-Avar

I like that optional event-like quest idea (Dragon example) very much, and I wouldn't mind if it brought some changes to the landscape (I find the changes made to the land in Cantha, for example, already interesting) or NPCs reactions or stuff. But - make it semi-permanent. Everything else is nearly bound to create some serious ef-up.

Well, Anet suggested these "changes" would last a week or so (if I'm not confusing it. Still, I'd like to see something last a little longer, to give mor eimpact to our actions.

But yes, it's a balancing act - on one hand, you want to reward those players for doing something important, on the other you want to keep the world dynamic and changeable.

It's all very exciting, and I'm looking forward to seeing how it all works out.

Superdarth

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2006

02 Apr 2007 at 20:42 - 52

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

Honestly, I don't think we were really supposed to "care" in the sense that we are concerned for their well-being. The Tyrians were the down-trodden, beaten down by an enemy that was just better than them, and they were forced to leave their homeland. You felt for your character because they no longer had a homeland, it was "seared" and all but destroyed. In Tyria, we tend to feel the need to help others because we have nowhere else to go. We pursue our destinies, or the "Prophecies", rather.

The Elonians, or more specifically, the Istanis still have their homeland, virtually untouched. The big threat is coming from far away, and you're meeting it head on, already prepared to destroy it like it was your bitch. Along the way, you get to be the "cool outlaws", the "black sheep" in a smug community, and working alongside an old "super villain" like he was your best bud. You're almost the bad guy throughout the entire continent of Elona, only to encounter the root of all evil. There's never a moment where you need to feel bad for anyone, cause you pretty much are bad, kinda. We are the vigilantes in Elona.

Cantha? Well, it was somewhere in the middle. Something threatened their homeland, and we play the doctors, in a sense. We're sent out to heal the land and get to the bottom of the "infection". It becomes more or less our job to defeat evil, whereas the others it's our choice, lore-wise.

I partially disagree here.

About Elona: The Istani's arnt under a direct threat..yet, but still you know that if you fail everyone will die and their souls will be tormented for the rest of eternity, on top of that if you fail even the five gods might get their butts whooped!

And early on in the story you get to see youre best chance of stopping evil obliterated and youre grand army torn to pieces, as well as losing someone close to you and with the possibility that a second close friend might be dead to. The entire story was quite exciting actually and many times things threatned to fail miserably, rather then heroicly succeeding everytime. (For example i was sure we where to late when abbadons tendrils rose up from the sands of Vabbi).

Cantha is actually where you are supposed to care, since everywhere you go you see the suffering of the people and what is happening.

The feeling is just not as strong as with Ascalon because the first time always gives a strong feeling.

Darksun

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

USA

Karr's Castle

W/E

02 Apr 2007 at 21:34 - 53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kha

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

If you want lore, go play WoW or EQ. There isn't much continuity in GW lore...I still laugh when I read the instruction manuals.

I hope you're joking.

Yeah seriously... WoW? You have that is seriously backwards.

Mordakai

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Aug 2005

Kyhlo

W/

02 Apr 2007 at 21:53 - 54

The problem I have with Factions is that it seems Mhenlo and his brother (?)* were more part of the story than we were. It was like we were piggy-backing the whole time.

* Can't remember the exact plot device, and really don't care at this point.

Nightfall is better, even though the Heroes take their share of the spotlight, the choices you make lend some semblance of control, and keeps the feeling that you are always in charge.

But nothing matched Prophecies feeling. The cataclysmic destruction of Ascalon made more powerful by the wonderful "pre-searing" area.

The gradual loss of major characters, the twists and turns of the plot (admittedly contrived at times), still kept the story "fresh."

But even better, you could ignore the entire plot and just "play the game." You could just run to the key points you needed to advance, and get right to whatever your goal was: Farming UW, hunting elite skills, whatever.

Hopefully GW2 will bring back the freedom of Prophecy, in Spades!

Caith-Avar

Academy Page

Join Date: Mar 2007

Germany / Playing on European Region.

Society of Life and Death [sold]

Me/Mo

02 Apr 2007 at 22:25 - 55

I just hope they will continue to use what lore they have.
As for the comparison to WoW: Do not forget that WoW actually is based on the World of Azeroth, which had been defined by three games before WoW.
Guild Wars had to create it's own lore - and it has done so nicely.

I hope that the future releases keep the five gods - I already find it rather sad that they felt the need to include those "new" races - instead of using some of those that were available already and partially friendly (Centaurs, Tengu, Dwarf, Forgotten, Dredge...)
I, for once, would have LOVED to play a Forgotten.

Well, as for the campaigns... I have to agree with Mordakai... and I think the plot device Mordakai meant was Master Togo (the emperors brother).

Cjlr

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2005

SMS

E/Me

02 Apr 2007 at 22:42 - 56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caith-Avar

I hope that the future releases keep the five gods - I already find it rather sad that they felt the need to include those "new" races - instead of using some of those that were available already and partially friendly (Centaurs, Tengu, Dwarf, Forgotten, Dredge...)

Hehe... Yeah...

If it ain't broke... don't fix it. That, or you're not trying.

Mr Jazzy

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

Cali

Mending For The [win]

W/A

03 Apr 2007 at 02:28 - 57

I gotta agree. When I started 22 (?) months ago, I was totally blow away by the Guild Wars system, and I was totally engrossed with the story. Lol, I remember calling in my brother to watch the cinematics with me because the experience was totally new. Now that the material isn't so new, I don't feel nearly the same as I did back then. Not to bash Guild Wars though; I think it's still a great game.

Superdarth

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2006

03 Apr 2007 at 09:33 - 58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darksun

Yeah seriously... WoW? You have that is seriously backwards.

It is?WoW has an immense amount of lore actually, much more then Guild Wars, the game dousnt take you through a story sure but anyone saying WoW has no lore has not even tried searching for it.

Onarik Amrak

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2007

Astral Revenants

P/W

03 Apr 2007 at 11:34 - 59

WoW is different. GW is the FIRST game in Tyria. WoW is the 4th? game in Azeroth. It's hardly the same thing.

Caith-Avar

Academy Page

Join Date: Mar 2007

Germany / Playing on European Region.

Society of Life and Death [sold]

Me/Mo

03 Apr 2007 at 11:41 - 60

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onarik Amrak

WoW is different. GW is the FIRST game in Tyria. WoW is the 4th? game in Azeroth. It's hardly the same thing.

Fourth, as far as I know and also already said, although it has been overread, most likely. But I think for Warcraft it really was only 1-3, and expansions - I think Frozen Throne most notably established additional lore (apart from the real games... I don't know about expansions to 1 and 2)

Chieftain Heavyhand

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Aug 2006

wpg

03 Apr 2007 at 12:17 - 61

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sujoy

its possible, especially if he's from the South of the US.

Speaking of Racist remarks, why is it that you people (and I mean that no mater what color, religion, sex or sexual orientation you are) think all Southerners are racist? We are not all racist. You are using the same rationalization that true racist use, if one person is like that then they all are. That is racism. So stop generalizing.

As far as the game goes I think everything fits together pretty well. Not terrific but with a little imagination well.

EternalTempest

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2005

United States

Dark Side Ofthe Moon [DSM]

E/

03 Apr 2007 at 12:25 - 62

I like all three campaigns.

I think when it comes to the plot, they improved there attempt each time, espically with Nightfall. Things like lip syncing, npc's random quotes, etc started with Nightfall and were back ported to the previous games.

It was the 1st so it set the comparison.
Faction was a far more tight / focused plot, and I did enjoy it.
Nightfall been the best so far, more derverse then Factions, better written then all three imho.

Caith-Avar

Academy Page

Join Date: Mar 2007

Germany / Playing on European Region.

Society of Life and Death [sold]

Me/Mo

03 Apr 2007 at 13:05 - 63

Yep. It has been a nice move by ANet to add Lip-Sync and stuff to Prophecies and Factions as well.

Str0b0

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

North Carolina

N/Me

03 Apr 2007 at 15:46 - 64

Immersion and lore discovery is the player's responsibility. There is plenty of Lore in both Factions and Nightfall but you have to find it. I thought that was th e point of the lore though. Maybe I too have lost sight of the big picture but I thought that discovery was part of the game. I am especially suprised to hear someone say Nightfall lacks the depth of Lore that the other's do. Nightfall answers so many questions. It ties the events of Prophecies together. It tells the story of the six gods. It reveals the why of the Searing and the Charr. It tells about Orr. It's all in ther ebut you have to find it. It isn't presented as readily as it was in Prophecies.

Darksun

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

USA

Karr's Castle

W/E

03 Apr 2007 at 16:02 - 65

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superdarth

It is?WoW has an immense amount of lore actually, much more then Guild Wars, the game dousnt take you through a story sure but anyone saying WoW has no lore has not even tried searching for it.

I take that back, I should have said plot. Since WoW isn't driven by a main story (no beginning, middle, end) It holds a much more unnecessary place than GW. WoW is driven by activities.

GW makes you a part of the story as a rule. WoW makes you a part of the story as an option. When I played WoW, the story had to be found. In GW, it was the setting.

clawofcrimson

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2006

Crimson Claw

W/

03 Apr 2007 at 17:39 - 66

Am I the only one who thinks the 'role playing' server option would be a good addition to GW?

especially if they move away from a more linear storyline.

Sir Skullcrasher

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2005

California

15 over 50 [Rare]

W/Mo

03 Apr 2007 at 18:00 - 67

If GW2 could use the quest system from Elder Scrolls: Oblivion, it would be better and fun for everyone.

Ebeneezersquid

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jun 2005

PWNT 2.0

N/

03 Apr 2007 at 20:53 - 68

Actually, I think that if GW2 managed to take the best of both GW1 and Oblivion, it would be as close to the ideal game as possible.

Good luck trying to get more than 3 people to agree what those "best of" things are though. . .

Spartan117

Academy Page

Join Date: Mar 2007

The Other Hand

W/R

03 Apr 2007 at 21:27 - 69

i think most of us are probobly more interested in the game we first picked up. for me its factions, i enjoy it most cuz it was the first one i played. i think i also enjoy it more because the story line is a bit more thought out. (lol there i go now, like i said, we are a bit more attached to our first game). im sure not all of us are like that of course, we see it as just another game with a good story line or a bad one. its all in the eyes of the beholder.

Dj Tano

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Mar 2006

03 Apr 2007 at 23:26 - 70

Quote:

Yep. It has been a nice move by ANet to add Lip-Sync and stuff to Prophecies and Factions as well.

If that can be called lip-sync in any way, then games like hl² have what, "real-lip"?

Caith-Avar

Academy Page

Join Date: Mar 2007

Germany / Playing on European Region.

Society of Life and Death [sold]

Me/Mo

03 Apr 2007 at 23:51 - 71

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dj Tano

If that can be called lip-sync in any way, then games like hl² have what, "real-lip"?

I think it's not bad for a feature in a product they are not likely to make much more profit with. And it is lip-movement on only that person that is speaking. If it was actual sync (hell, it even may be, I don't look that closely anyhow) they would have had to redo it for every language - as lip-syncing wasn't a concern when they did the foreign language voiceover.
And maybe, using technology that has still to run on a DX8, non-dual-core computer restricts such things a tiny little bit.

But, you know what? In German, there is a phrase "Einem geschenkten Gaul schaut man nicht ins Maul." - it's a rhyme, Gaul - Maul. By the way, both are words that used to be "normal" but are nowadays seen as somewhat derogative.
Freely translated it means: "If someone gives you a horse as present, you don't examine its mouth." - I tried to keep the actual meaning here, and the order.

So? Free update to the technically outdated episodes! Nice! The characters move their lips - somewhat - to what they are saying. I like it.
So, call it lip-movement if you like, if lip-sync implies too much for you. But it's a nice move, one way or the other.