05 Apr 2007 at 01:15 - 51
Quote:
and if you can beat atleast 1 area, with a member of each profession you ranted about, i'll mail you a $100
Dom/Interrupt mesmer. This char alone made foundry go so much easier. Support ranger. Paragons can tank or heal, though admittedly they are least suited for DoA. Dervishes can tank. Assassins *can* tank. Rits can be awesome spirit support and restoration magic, or a nuker. I have seen all of these classes, been in groups with them, and they work fine. But the generic DoA build works BETTER, so therefore people would rather use that. The best idea is just to get a decent PvE guild and play with them, that's what I did.
05 Apr 2007 at 01:23 - 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by MirkoTeran
Poor dead horse....
*pulls out box of assorted clubs, bats, hammers, and axes.*
come on people, lets beat it good! 
05 Apr 2007 at 01:41 - 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by wetsparks
As much as I would love to take the Xunlai agent with me, the hacker would hog all the drops. Those guys run the world you know, they get whatever they want. 
LOL... Don't I know it.
I'd swear that just as I logged in the other day, I saw the sneaky Xunlai agent in Deldrimor rummaging through my stuff. It wouldn't have been so bad if she hadn't spilled purple dye all over my crafting supplies. Do you know how hard it is to sell purple amber?
05 Apr 2007 at 01:42 - 54
I once joined a gloom group with an assassin tank, 2 monks and 5 mesmers (Assassin's promise + arcane echo + spiritual pain), and we managed to clear gloom pretty fast (~25 mins I guess)
There should be alot of builds without warrior and eles, it's just that everyone loves cookies...
05 Apr 2007 at 03:33 - 55
People play the "holy trinity" because A) it works B) it is all that they are taught.
Cookie cutter mentality invades more corners of GW because builds that are proven to work efficient are most sought after. This is closely followed by people's need for instant gratification, and these efficient and fast builds provide that... Creativity is always sacrificed when it comes to human greed.
In hindsight, NO the "holy trinity" is NOT the most effective. I am part of a guild that has done DoA since day one, and continues to do it very often. One of our officers basically only does DoA and always refines builds. We often go as all guild or alliance groups only, because we know that most people can fill any roll needed, and we can often work in the "odd" build. We often roll with 3 monk, 3 ele, 2 necro build. Basic and still only 3 classes. But seems to be even more effective then other builds. Now OUR mindset is honestly more about time management. Sure we want our riches too, but we like to do all 4 area runs in order to get the largest reward. With the effort come the rewards, so whittling the run from 8 hours down to around 5-6 hours proves worth it.
In short, just dont pug. I know that is naive in a sense, since not all people have access to a very active guild/alliance or even a guild/alliance that is very knowledgable about DoA. However, put in the effort to find a guild that knows and often does DoA through your pugs. It will take effort and fustration, but in the end it will be so worth it.
Ya my whole 2 cents are kind of contradictory since i say that our guild has the same basic mentality, but in a more conducive and friendly atmosphere, will allow for leeway when it comes to different profession involvment...
IDK, in the end, don't bash on other people for buying into the cookie cutter mentality, its expected. Rather take the efforts yourself to find that good guild or group of friends that does it often and becomes knowledgable about the area enough to be able to experiement and run the builds you want.
Best of wishes to the OP in his efforts. I hope you can find a good active DoA guild....
cheers.
05 Apr 2007 at 04:34 - 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDarkOneVK
So if using something different means it takes me a bit longer and I lose my "farming efficiency" or whatever, that's fine. Is anyone with me? (Probably not  )
What I enjoy most about GW is the different possibilities for play-style. I have (at least) one character of each profession for this very reason. I like the challenge of figuring out how I can make it thru the game with my own strategies and devices. If I can't complete a mission or task with a certain character, I take the time to mix my skills around and attribute points and figure out what will work for me. I'm with you on that one, but that's just how we choose to play the game.
I just wish it weren't so hard to find like-minds in the GW world (the persistence of GW2 might make this easier).
05 Apr 2007 at 05:14 - 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chop it Off
*pulls out box of assorted clubs, bats, hammers, and axes.*
come on people, lets beat it good!
here you go. lol
get some practice in lol
05 Apr 2007 at 06:14 - 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kakumei
People use the "holy trinity" because they're what works.
Sorry.
That isn't discrimination. That's mechanics. When going into an area like DoA, onw where you are outnumbered and facing VERY difficult encounters, you have 2 choices:
1: Go in with a team that has proven to be effective against the encounters you will face. This makes success more likely, as well as reducing the aggravation of these areas. You build a specific team, with specific roles, because those roles WORK, period.
2: Go in with a team that is not proven to work.The only way that you won't encounter frustration is to go in with an entire team that understands that the makeup is experimental. Go in with the idea not of beating the area, but of experimenting, probably wiping several times, and go in with a like-minded group of people. You may make it far, you may wipe the first time. If the entire party is NOT informed of the experimental nature of the group, a lot of drama ensues, including ragequitting.
Do whatever sounds fun to you, but remember this: most people there want to get the gemstones. Method #1 will get you gemstones, while method #2 may, may not. Players aren't the ones who made up DoA, they aren't the ones who decided that certain classes were a lot less effective there. The developers decided the mechanics of the area, and currently, the mechanics of the area make the trinity builds the most effective.
05 Apr 2007 at 06:29 - 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by thelegendozelda
your more than welcome to start your own group with whatever you like,
and if you can beat atleast 1 area, with a member of each profession you ranted about, i'll mail you a $100
is it in usd$100 or rupiah$100 lol
05 Apr 2007 at 06:34 - 60
DoA is a flawed design that exposed the imbalance between classes in pve. Don't like it when it is useless to interrupt simply because if you need to interrupt you are dead already.
Hour after hour of the same. Tank goes up to get aggro, monks try and keep him alive, nukers nuke, things go wrong, almost party wipe, rebirth, repeat. Not what I would call fun and repeatable.
Very telling that 85% of the people at DoA are looking for a farming group and the others are looking to kill Mallyx.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vilaptca
Not exactly something the dev team controls....it was the player-base who decided that this and nothing else works. There are a few out there who understand the potential of the other classes, but most everyone is stuck on the trinity or whatever it was called.
The dev team designed the area in such a way that only one approach works.
05 Apr 2007 at 10:54 - 61
Why put yourself at a disability by bringing less efficient classes?
DoA takes long enough as it is.
05 Apr 2007 at 11:22 - 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vilaptca
Not exactly something the dev team controls....it was the player-base who decided that this and nothing else works. There are a few out there who understand the potential of the other classes, but most everyone is stuck on the trinity or whatever it was called.
I beg to differ, the devs are the ones who made this area so stupidly 'hard' that nobody will try other professions. Shutdowns are ineffective, melee combat is completely out with things hitting for 300+, too much hiding behind walls for a ranger or paragon, and the environment effects are just completely moronic (50% miss? Seems sensible....not).
Its the devs fault that only 4 professions from the whole of GW get into this area in 95% of teams. The only reason my ranger has killed Mallyx was because we were using a monk tank most the time who needed QZ spamming. So they deserve all they get, they haven't done anything right after Sorrows Furnace and the Tombs update. The only problem with those areas is that they're quite old and have lost there touch, still fun none the less.
Just aslong as GWEN isn't a mixture of all this. No 'easy' dungeons, increasing in difficulty till we get DoA Mk II. Its an elite area, give the damn enemies more than 1 elite, not 5x damage!
05 Apr 2007 at 12:15 - 63
Why don't you think of a nice team-build yourself, using the non-common classes, which is actually able to survive in DoA.
I mean most enemies in DoA hit for like 300ish to 60 AL. And Dervish and Sins have 60 AL... Two hits and you are dead. And you will get a lot more hits then 2.
Why would any party in their right mind, take a so-called melee-character with inferior armor? What good could a Dervish do at all? Their damage isnt that high, its slow and they have the *woot* ability to strike at 3 targets, but foes are never close enough together.
Come up with a build that actually lasts longer then 20 seconds in DoA and you might get into a team if you tell them what you do. This pretty much means u DO NOT use Avatars. Avatars suck, they give Dervish the idea they can be gods and its all cool and leet and stuff. Which is not. Other elites are far more powerfull. Forms are only active 50%ish of time.
05 Apr 2007 at 12:24 - 64
*sigh*
Dervish and Assassin has 70AL, so already i assume your sight is shorter than a blind man.
Assassins 'can' tank with the unlimited Shadow Form build, just more awkward than an obsidian tank.
Dervishes can also tank, probably better than before now VoS has a cast time buff.
Your a tank... foes are ALWAYS that close together. But considering in DoA your putting all your effort into staying alive and keeping things away from the casters, does it matter how many targets you can hit?
Do you even have a Dervish? I assume not because you just sound clueless. My avatar lasts 74 seconds w/ a +4 Mysticism switch. Which is already more than 50%, if its not DoA things are mostly dead and your moving on to the next fight. Who the hell would use Avatars in DoA outside of chest running? I think its safe to say, you suck.
05 Apr 2007 at 17:21 - 65
Oh man... your just a sad puppy. I bet nobody loves you...
Hmm I could say I have a Dervish and stuff and respond to your direct insults and all, but I really dont care what you think of me.
90% of the Dervishes and Assasins out there prefer doing damage over tank builds. Dervishes and Assasins wanting to do DoA are just the same, therefor only D/E and A/Me are invited in parties, because they at least can tank (hopefully). The OP was complaining about them never getting invited into parties, or only when playing a specific build.
60 or 70 armor, it doesnt matter (but please can you EVER forgive my slip of mind), it is still less then a Warrior with 100 armor, +16 shield and +40 from some skill.
And still the Dervish being able to hit 3 targets; you have the option of being:
a) a tank! but you do shit damage because all skills are defense
b) a damage dealer! but you do shit damage, because all enemies go different targets, since there is no proper tank in party
Not to mention AoE effect from Dervishes might trigger Call of Torment on multiple Torment Creatures.
And a Dervish tank using VoS would still get hurt by melee strikes which also hurt a lot... especially on a 60 AL... forgive me *w00t* 70 AL.
I dont suggest using an Avatar, but somehow people always think they pwn, even in DoA.
<Fill in some random insults and stuff here and tell Dervish has Protector title>
PS. Actually you might make a usefull comment by saying also a lot of 'socalled' Warrior tanks are crap, especially since lots of them decide to bring Eviscarate as their Elite and stuff. And to get back at the OP comment, apparently even these Warriors require a very specific build, so it does not matter wether you are Dervish or Warrior using Obsidian. Just Dervishes have a better time keeping the enchantments from the eles up. Another usefull arguement you actually forgot to mention.
PPS.. and if you actually read what is written below my name on the left, you might have refrained from useless arguements. But I forgive you, since you could forgive me for misinterpreting the armor level from sins and dervishes. Oh wait..
<insert some more insults here, because it hurts so much>
bah, you made me type so much...
<more insults because i just wasted time to respond to his>
05 Apr 2007 at 18:30 - 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilsod
*sigh*
Who the hell would use Avatars in DoA outside of chest running? I think its safe to say, you suck.
Wow. Just Wow. Keep it clean guys or this thread will get closed up.
05 Apr 2007 at 20:06 - 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kakumei
People use the "holy trinity" because they're what works.
Sorry.
True. This works. Groups arn't going to lag behind just so you and your dervish can get some playing time. Sit on the bench until someone comes up with a uber build for doa (which I highly doubt), or make your own group. Your ranting about other people not letting you in. Well then just make your own if you really want to. I'll also give you 100$ if you beat 1 area with every profession thats not in the "holy trinity".
05 Apr 2007 at 20:13 - 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by captainccc
True. This works. Groups arn't going to lag behind just so you and your dervish can get some playing time. Sit on the bench until someone comes up with a uber build for doa (which I highly doubt), or make your own group. Your ranting about other people not letting you in. Well then just make your own if you really want to. I'll also give you 100$ if you beat 1 area with every profession thats not in the "holy trinity".
*sigh*, tis true. Anet should try to fix this up IMO.
05 May 2007 at 04:52 - 69
I agree with Runeseeker to an extent. Sure, team-builds that deal with DoA and other high-level areas work, but seriously, while it is fun getting a 100k drop, is it really worth that single moment of glory? If I could hero/henchie high-level areas like that, I would. I myself have gotten to DoA on my Dervish, and NO ONE will accept me into a group. Even my Paragon, whom I've gotten into the Realm of Torment, can't find a group because people can't be original anymore. Now maybe the "Holy Trinity" is the only team build that works, as some have said, but what the *#(%? Why did they make it so hard for normal people, that don't have the time or money to invest in skills/builds/armour/weapons, to make decent money? I think they should even out the proffession-field a bit, make it so that there are other team-builds that work besides the "Holy Trinity", among others. And if someone says "Ask for help from your guild", half of the people in GW are either not in guilds and don't want to be, or simply can't devote too much time to create a specialized-build. Being able to farm in DoA (or other high-level areas) is not skill, it's simply where you started and who you know, or just dumb luck. Unforunately, having fun and making money at the same time is not something that happens very often in GW. Ching Chang Kapowee!
05 May 2007 at 05:07 - 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDarkOneVK
So if using something different means it takes me a bit longer and I lose my "farming efficiency" or whatever, that's fine. Is anyone with me? (Probably not )
I'm with ya 
I for one would like to try DoA with a team that isn't set on farming. Then again, many will argue that random PUG's are a terrible waste of time. I like the randomness And wish that areas like DoA are more accessible to all classes not just the "Trinity"
05 May 2007 at 05:25 - 71
With new PvE only skills coming out soon, DoA might become more accessible to the non-trinity classes. But I also have a sneaky feeling that the trinity PvE only skills will just make them even more sought after.
05 May 2007 at 05:44 - 72
The entire reason behind the R3 requirement is the elite LB skill that is attainable at rank3.
Personally, I find it annoying that my R3LB R9SS Dervish can't do anything in DOA, but I at least understand why and, until a build comes up that utilizes a dervish, I'm enjoying other areas of the game.
Hard Mode for example.
05 May 2007 at 06:40 - 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caoimhe
Greed.
That's all it is; people want more/better/stronger stuff, and will do whatever they have to to get it.
So those of us who are "stupid" enough to play a non-sanctioned character get left with the prospect of buying the loot those holy ones have so painstakingly farmed... over, and, over, and over again, while we unwashed masses lurk in the zone, pleading with someone to take us with them like some lost puppy.
It's elitism and discrimination, and frankly, I find it pathetic. Try being a mesmer at Deldrimor for an Oro run. Might as well not even log in.
Form your own group? That's got to be the funniest thing I've heard today. With what? Unless you're in a huge guild with all sorts of noble sorts that are willing to help, you're more likely to get the Xunlai agent to go with you.
Logic? Sure, it's logical, if all you want to do is maximise your profit. What happened to having fun? Oh, wait. Foolish me. I forgot that this wasn't meant to be fun, it was meant to increase the size of individual egos. Instead, every trip is a profit machine; don't bother trying to help or - gasp - learn how other professions might me useful in any given area. You might waste your time, and time is money!
Will this anger some people? Probably. I have only this to say to those who get hot under the collar: Methinks the lady/gent doth protest too much.
Cynical? Yeah, maybe. Why shouldn't I, or anyone else in this kind of a situation, be cynical?
And don't give me "The right person for the job" argument; that's hogwash. If the Dev team wanted a zone to be class-specific, it would have been built that way. Instead, we have elitists making the decisions for us.
The right person for the job is a player who uses their own intelligence to play their character effectively, given any circumstances. Instead we have cookie-cutter builds where about the only differences in characters is appearance and names. Yippee. Nothing like watching the same movie, over and over again. I would find it dreadfully boring myself.
Meh.
Not much else I can say here, you read my mind.
05 May 2007 at 06:57 - 74
Some lack the experience and skill to do these types of areas with normal balanced builds, so they go the easy route.
05 May 2007 at 07:52 - 75
Dervish... tank? LOL, yeah...
The comparison between Lightbringer requirements and Fame requirements is a moot argument. Lightbringer r3 is a minimum requirement because Lightbringer's Gaze is useful, not to mention the +15% against demonic servants. Fame is useless, therefore the comparison is stupid.
05 May 2007 at 11:02 - 76
Quote:
Some lack the experience and skill to do these types of areas with normal balanced builds, so they go the easy route.
Kaiz posted the 4-run balanced doa build and most teams use that now or a variation.
It's indeed easy to run if you know how and where to tank.
On the other hand, I have played with several groups that were unable to play this build, so it still requires some skill
Enemies aggro tank while the rest is out of 'sight'.
Then you unleash an huge amount of damage, including KD to make sure they stay in harmless damage, on the mob.
That's also the way the DoA environment works.
There is no subtle enemy taking out single party members.
It's a huge number at once that does nothing but an enormous amount of damage. You counter that by doing the most damage possible in a short time.
I have monked DoA a couple of times and the Tank/Nuker/Monk combination is one of the fastest ways to play.
Why would you need something like a mesmer when you can just ball the monk or other critical caster inside the mob and put Meteor Shower on them?
MS > monk.
There are alternatives for the default build, but I would not recommend those for PuGs.
05 May 2007 at 12:49 - 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenRgy
Why put yourself at a disability by bringing less efficient classes?
What's less efficient? The classes themselves or the way that people design and play cookie cutter builds?
The way that PvE is designed - even the so-called "elite" areas - is so that any mix of professions is capable of winning through. This game rewards skill, but where's the skill in using builds or tactics that other people have come up with? Are these elitist players really getting any sense of accomplishment out of this?
Personally, given the choice I prefer to take a mesmer over an elementalist any day. I know from experience how powerful this "less efficient" class is. And why would I want to take a healing monk when for raw healing power, I've found it's better to take a restoration ritualist 99% of the time (though I still respect that monks are far better at protection). I've even met a coupla dervishes who have been able to out-tank warriors.
So again I ask: what is less efficient?
05 May 2007 at 13:40 - 78
What ever happened to having fun? This is a game, not a job where your life depends on making money. So you go to DoA with a non conforming group and you learn what works and what doesn't and you have fun doing it. What is wrong with that?
05 May 2007 at 14:48 - 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Risky Ranger
What ever happened to having fun? This is a game, not a job where your life depends on making money. So you go to DoA with a non conforming group and you learn what works and what doesn't and you have fun doing it. What is wrong with that?
The fact that non-conforming groups likely won't have what is required for defenses and offenses that the current build(s) in use has/have.
05 May 2007 at 14:51 - 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRUEgamer
The fact that non-conforming groups likely won't have what is required for defenses and offenses that the current build(s) in use has/have.
You never know until you try, and you did say likely won't have.
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