The recent skill update didn't have much for paragons, but more importantly, Anet seems to be lowering its hands on the "paragon nerf 2 hell" button. Amazingly, we actually got a buff on shouts/chants, as anthem of fury's recharge time was decreased (better able to feul echoes and now is one of the few skills that can replace anthem of flame in the perpetuation of "aggressive refrain"), and anthem of envy's attack was increased (it still is underpowered, but atleast not as much as before).
I hope this means that the orgy of paragon nerfs is over and good things lie ahead for the paragon.
Though, we kind of got a nerf in another way, as now we can't buff minions or any other "non-spirit" person b/c they changed shouting to only affecting allies... which is dumb because the nerf was only there to make spirits less powerful, not everything non-spirit... they could have easily said that the skills "affect all non-spirit allies" but they were probably like, "oh they've been nerfed so much, they won't care if we nerf'em some more."
Mixed feelings about paragon update
crime.mob
geekling
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Originally Posted by crime.mob
Though, we kind of got a nerf in another way, as now we can't buff minions or any other "non-spirit" person b/c they changed shouting to only affecting allies... which is dumb because the nerf was only there to make spirits less powerful, not everything non-spirit... they could have easily said that the skills "affect all non-spirit allies" but they were probably like, "oh they've been nerfed so much, they won't care if we nerf'em some more."
This is a nerf I really, utterly and truely hate, loathe and dispise, it is pure codswallop. Words that does not involved go engine red go are not strong enough to express the idiocity of this so called 'small adjustement'.
Yeah, because those chants affecting and buffing these guys:
Were so truely breaking the mythical 'PvP balance' that they had to take that last little bit fun away from the PvE paragon.
Yeah, because those chants affecting and buffing these guys:
Were so truely breaking the mythical 'PvP balance' that they had to take that last little bit fun away from the PvE paragon.
Humanghost
I hate ANet for this nerf. I can't imagine what was they thinking. They want do Paragon completely useless? I'm angry, very angry. 
Milan-V
There is one minor reason to take a paragon in your party left...and ffs I am so mad about it! >=(
ArKaiN
I *think* it had more to do with the interaction between stuff like GftE+FtW and MM's.
geekling
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Originally Posted by ArKaiN
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Most of which suck. When assassin hits you with 3 conditions, you won't stick around to use lyric of purification or something like that. The only good self condition removal is that of Remedy Signet, but I prefer Mending Touch.|
This small adjustment to the Paragon was made primarily to deal with Spirit/Chant issues. Since all Spirit attacks count as attack skills, these Chants were making offensive Spirits more powerful than they were intended.
Says it had nothing to do with MMs. Minions don't trigger any of those skills that were changed, they did gain a little bit of protection from burning foes thanks to "They're on fire!" but that's the only change to minions. PvPers complain that there's a problem with spirits being too powerful in PvP when combined with a Paragon. Well, lesse... we could change the spirits to not have all attacks count as attack skills, so their attacks are no different from say minion attacks. That would take care of it... Or we could make the paragon chants affect 'non-spirit allies' only, that would do it too... But hey! niether would make the PvE paragon suffer, so let's bring out the big nerf hammer and change them to party only. Can't have paragons teaming up with beastmasters and run around having PvE fun with an army of bears, oh noes! Can't have Paragon chants affect NPC allies! That's outrageous, people might actually have fun playing them in quests/missions with NPC allies to babysit. Those aren't meant to be fun, those NPCs aren't supposed to help the party - just be there as a hinderance! This must be stopped! Spura
They claim that it was because of spirits. Anthem of Fury was changed from Ally to Party Member. Apparently adrenaline makes spirits overpowered or something. [/sarcasm]
pingu666
yep, thats a stupid change. paragons where great in the not make npc a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing liability area, but not now
Komradkyle
I made my mesmer and paragon just to play dress up and nothing else
FeroxC
All is not lost, we still got some nice attack animations like anthem of flame.
and we got 80 def armour. We can load up on warrior skills and be pretty but less effective warriors. *sips, from his half filled glass*
Corpselooter
R.I.P. Paragons.
I bet arenanet has this topic under "favourites" and check it whenever they need a laugh. yakuza9
let me get this straight..
I can't use the shouts on my pet if I'm Paragon/Ranger? what's a good secondary for paragons now? crime.mob
o snap i forgot now you can't buff pets either... well theres few secondaries the nightfall professions can synergize with (the paragon isn't the only class with the problem of all paragon skill bars, dervishes can barely mix with anything either)
The ranger is still a good choice if you have some awsome trap build or you how to synergize your chants with your bow attacks (you can get the energy from adrenaline chants... but i found i was doin more damage with spear :P) The warrior is, almost obviously, the class that mixes with the paragon the best. Theres the adrenaline cross over and I think you can make better use of the tactics line than warriors can :P. Instead of using the spear you could use any of the warrior's weapons but you have to remember that now you need to run up to the target rather than shoot it, so i would recomend bringing the speed buff in Leadership. Monk, if you want to heal (but worse than a real monk). Mesmers and necros are workable (though barely), minion master builds have been ruled out but you could use their plethora of spells to help you achieve... whatever your build is tryin 2 achieve. The elementalist 2dary allows you to bring "conjure flame" or you could simply spam spells, required that you have enough adrenaline buffs and leadership to back up ur energy usage (though i don't recommend using the paragon this way). Spura
You are using secondaries the wrong way. You are taking a thing from secondary(pet, monk heals, warrior weapon, traps, MM) then working your paragon primary around it. That sucks.
Make the usual paragon then figure out what abilities you need that paragon can't offer and choose secondary on that and use 1 or 2 skills from secondary. Mesmer offers hex breaker, expel hexes. Monk offers Mending Touch, Restful Breeze. Warrior offers block stances and some additional shouts. Ele offers Conjure X and other buffs. Other secondaries are not that useful.
King's Spectre
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Originally Posted by geekling
Yeah, because those chants affecting and buffing these guys:
Were so truely breaking the mythical 'PvP balance' that they had to take that last little bit fun away from the PvE paragon. GftE and such still work on these guys, don't they? Not as good for buffing them anymore but still good for energy management. yakuza9
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Originally Posted by Spura
You are using secondaries the wrong way. You are taking a thing from secondary(pet, monk heals, warrior weapon, traps, MM) then working your paragon primary around it. That sucks.
Make the usual paragon then figure out what abilities you need that paragon can't offer and choose secondary on that and use 1 or 2 skills from secondary. Mesmer offers hex breaker, expel hexes. Monk offers Mending Touch, Restful Breeze. Warrior offers block stances and some additional shouts. Ele offers Conjure X and other buffs. Other secondaries are not that useful. compared to other classes, the paragon has quite a few condition removal abilities and hexbreaker aria... I'm really interested in BLIND though, we have no real defense against warriors/rangers. Spura
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Originally Posted by yakuza9
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Originally Posted by yakuza9
and hexbreaker aria...
Which is very poor hex removal. Paragon doesn't have spells so you have to draw from secondary, also it costs 8 adren and casts 2 sec(I have no idea why this was nerfed in this way). Also it won't work if you get hexed with Vocal Minority and versus diversion you'll want to use Hexbreaker from mesmer rather than hexbreaker aria.
[/QUOTE] I'm really interested in BLIND though, we have no real defense against warriors/rangers.[/QUOTE] Try using steam from water magic.
holden
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Originally Posted by yakuza9
I'm really interested in BLIND though, we have no real defense against warriors/rangers.
you have the armor and shield of a warrior. rangers shouldn't do that much to you with condition removal on your bar. grasping earth costs no attribute points for a great snare and an opportunity to distance yourself from melee characters. the only thing paragon is missing is interrupts.
Thom Bangalter
there are these things in gvgs called archers, and at 20 minutes they all go out to the flagstand. giving 6 or 7 guys anthem of flame or stand your ground is pretty gamebreaking there.
Motivation sucks. It NEEDS to suck. Command and spear mastery are still spectacular though.
Skuld
Imagine every offensive binding ritual in the game in a line, causing CRIPPLE and BURNING when they attack.
That is why. geekling
That is a problem about spirits. Not about the nerfed chants.
Instead of this cackhanded approach of making it party only that hurt PvE so much more... They could have opted to make spirit attacks not count as attack skills - like minion attacks, the majority of all pet attacks (not counting the bear's brutal mauling, etc.) That would have solved it without hurting the PvE paragon, leaving the paragon to function unhindered in it's PvE role. They could have opted to make those chants affect non-spitit allies. Which also would have done the trick, and was suggested several times while Anet put their fingers in their ears going 'lalalalalalalalaaa I can't hear you!' Which also would have stopped the spirit/chat abuse in PvP dead in it's tracks in a way that would not have affected PvE in any major fasion. Instead they choose to use the spirit/chants abuse as an excuse to nerf things like anthem of fury to party only... Because ummm... those spirits really got over powered gaining extra adrenaline, with their fixed attack rates and all. - Poppycocks!
Skuld
Its a bug fix, nothing more, nothing less.
You're really mad about the odd NPC minion not being able to cause burning any more? o.O
clawofcrimson
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Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter
there are these things in gvgs called archers, and at 20 minutes they all go out to the flagstand. giving 6 or 7 guys anthem of flame or stand your ground is pretty gamebreaking there.
Motivation sucks. It NEEDS to suck. Command and spear mastery are still spectacular though. thank you, All the non pvp'ers out there read this please ^ Paragons are abused in gvg and underused in pve. An unfortunate situation that will hopefully be fixed with the new skills in GW:EN.... ...but if you still dont know why paras got the nerf bat....observe mode is your friend. geekling
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Originally Posted by Skuld
Its a bug fix, nothing more, nothing less.
You're really mad about the odd NPC minion not being able to cause burning any more? o.O A bug fix would have been fixing something that is wrong. Changing a skill that says in the description 'all allies' that indeed affects all allies.To no longer affect allies is not a bug fix,the affecting NPC allies and pets wasn't broke. It didn't need fixing. And no, I'm not mad. I'm bloody furious. It was unnecessary and yet another blatant expression of Anet treating the PvE paragon as the red headed stepchild. That, perhaps small, advantage of being able to buff NPCs as well as party members was one of the last remaining unique features the Paragon had in PvE. One of the very, very few reason people actaully wanted - not just accepted - Paragons in PvE. Making better use of the NPC allies you're saddled with in certain missions. Now they've taken that away, there really isn't much left for the Paragon. The very small niche they had, wantonly destroyed. Plus, on a more personal note. All those hours of mindless grind, to charm and level up bears for my heroes. To get a fun little troupe of paragon + beastmaster heroes. With bears of course. Down the drain. I can't buff my beastmaster ranger heroes at all after this nerf. My chants don't affect the pets. Don't give them any extra protection, don't give them any buff on attacks. Pet attacks - you know all those skills filling up the beastmaster bar, don't trigger them either. So basically, my paragon is rendered useless as a support character for that happy fun times combination. What's left of the paragon. Well... they're pretty much watered down to a warrior/ranger (high armour + ranged attack) using spears instead of a bow. If that was what I wanted to play, I'd you know... created a warrior/ranger. At least with a longbow I'd gotten a netter range. And it actually have some useful elites - unlike the paragon. geekling
[QUOTE=clawofcrimsonAn unfortunate situation that will hopefully be fixed with the new skills in GW:EN....[/QUOTE]
Wait for half a year then give those Anet more money buying an expansion that 'may' fix the problem - but if it does, that'll with Anet's track record be nerfed into oblivion, is an unacceptable proposal. yakuza9
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Originally Posted by holden
you have the armor and shield of a warrior. rangers shouldn't do that much to you with condition removal on your bar.
grasping earth costs no attribute points for a great snare and an opportunity to distance yourself from melee characters. the only thing paragon is missing is interrupts. sounds like mesmer is a key choice then, but no one uses them.. 
Skuld
geekling - pet attacks NEVER triggered paragon chants, brutal mauling was the rarity
geekling
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Originally Posted by Skuld
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They could have opted to make spirit attacks not count as attack skills - like minion attacks, the majority of all pet attacks (not counting the bear's brutal mauling, etc.)
I am very well aware of that.
Do you know how many hours of mindless grind it takes to charm and level up a bear for each hero?
How many hours that now are absolutely wasted.
With PvP characters getting an Elder wolf, you can't even claim that those chants affecting pets has EVER had any effect on PvP balance.
That's not even mentioning the other chants, like "They're on Fire!" that have always affected all pets, bears or not. The ones that got extra protection from Devona's attack skills and so on.
Do you know how many hours of mindless grind it takes to charm and level up a bear for each hero?
How many hours that now are absolutely wasted.
With PvP characters getting an Elder wolf, you can't even claim that those chants affecting pets has EVER had any effect on PvP balance.
That's not even mentioning the other chants, like "They're on Fire!" that have always affected all pets, bears or not. The ones that got extra protection from Devona's attack skills and so on.