Whats wrong with spirit of Failure?

Gregslot

Gregslot

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2006

Me/

I dont get it, i really dont (please someone convince me, or try).

I considered Spirit of Failure a avarage skill, its impossible to use it if you are not a mesmer, and you dont actually get that much energy back.
10 energy, 3 cast time, 20 recharge, and you have 25% chance to get 2 energy if the enemy attacks u.u

berlioz7

berlioz7

Academy Page

Join Date: Feb 2007

D/

The thing that was wrong with spirit of failure was the same thing that was wrong with price of failure and soulreaping. The favorite child (pvp) cried and it was nerfed for them.

around

around

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2006

Aussie Trolling Crew - Diplomatic Embassy

I Have Three Pennies [Pnny] - forever in my heart <3

R/

Because its 30 seconds of missing 25% of your attacks for no attribute investment that stacks with other melee debuffs.

lyra_song

lyra_song

Hell's Protector

Join Date: Oct 2005

R/Mo

good farming hex too.

Former Ruling

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Oct 2005

Cedartown, Georgia

R/

The problem with it came when it was used in a hex team or spammed under MoR.

When someone has Reckless Haste, Price of Failure, AND Spirit of Failure on them (most likely with Parasidic Bond to cover, and try Faintheartedness for good measure)...You cant always use up your Divert Hexes or Purge or Convert on them because the rest of the team might need those more.

Tarkin

Tarkin

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Dec 2005

W/N

Reckless Haste, Price of Failure, AND Spirit of Failure + parasit bond = own in pve and is a good deal against melle in pvp...

Dont use in the primary target use in a warrior in pve + ss... you will have a uselles warrior running around giving you energy and with ss...

In pvp use against melles teams, because the fast recharge time you can spread it fast and because the energy net gain you can spread forever...

Cymmina

Cymmina

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2005

Me/N

Quote:
Originally Posted by spawnofebil
Because its 30 seconds of missing 25% of your attacks for no attribute investment that stacks with other melee debuffs. If that was the problem, making the duration scale based on the associated attribute would have been a more reasonable change. I spec high inspiration for some builds, but changes like these make it harder and harder to justify the investment.

Theus

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

W/Mo

Because it's a well known fact that Mesmer's aren't allowed good skills.

Avarre

Avarre

Bubblegum Patrol

Join Date: Dec 2005

Singapore Armed Forces

+5 spirit of failure, huge duration, stacked with other miss hexes, stacked with Aegis was huge energy management as you missed almost every attack (or didn't attack at all) and contributed to the retardedness of the hex meta.

Caith-Avar

Academy Page

Join Date: Mar 2007

Germany / Playing on European Region.

Society of Life and Death [sold]

Me/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregslot
10 energy, 3 cast time, 20 recharge, and you have 25% chance to get 2 energy if the enemy attacks u.u Blind him, make that a 90% miss chance, thus 90% on that energy gain instead of 25%. Though that's only what I did in PvE. Don't know about PvP.

stueyman2099

stueyman2099

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2005

Clan W A S D [WASD]

W/E

The reason this was more powerful than blind was that haexes cost more resources to remove than conditions.

Rurik Jangeer

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Aug 2006

[FINE] Fat Insecure Neurotic Emotional

P/W

Quote:
Originally Posted by Theus
Because it's a well known fact that Mesmer's aren't allowed good skills. QFMFT

enough said

Tarkin

Tarkin

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Dec 2005

W/N

Quote:
Originally Posted by Theus
Because it's a well known fact that Mesmer's aren't allowed good skills. Agree. They hate mesmers.

Winstar

Winstar

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Feb 2006

London

Quote:
Originally Posted by berlioz7
The thing that was wrong with spirit of failure was the same thing that was wrong with price of failure and soulreaping. The favorite child (pvp) cried and it was nerfed for them. PvP is not the favorite child of Anet. Consider each expansion. PvE players get boatloads of new content in the form of a new story, a new continent to explore, new skills, new items, new elite mission areas. PvE players get loads of weekend events. PvP players simply have to live with imbalancing skills and some new halls. PvE players get the bulk of the updates (over time most add more PvE related content than PvP related content). The most recent PCgamer article is an in depth discussion about the game which mentioned PvP for all of...2 sentences maybe? The PvP arenas have been long neglected and needing significant changes and adjustments for the sake of playability. When Anet _finally_ gets around to doing something about it many PvE players start moaning because they don't get their way in one area of the game (skill balance) which has a far less devestating impact on PvE than PvP. Its not everyone, I know lots of players who are either PvEers or hybrid players (like myself) who are content with skill changes for the most part and happy to see that work is being done to fix PvP environments and in general that Anet is taking into account PvP issues. Anyway, give it up.

Are Mesmers hated?

Mesmers have loads of good skills and always have, and always will be, an integeral part of the GvG metagame. HA is a different story, but that is related to the current setup of its maps/objectives and not the class itself. In PvE I will admit that they have historically been underused. IMO this is part of the design concept of the class itself which in many ways focuses on shutting single characters while PvE has typically been focused on dealing mass amounts of damage via AoE (see minion swarms and nuking - searing eles in DoA etc). In pretty much every case in PvE its more time efficient to simply bomb the hell out of monsters till they are all dead than to try and shutdown a monk, or tp help relieve pressure by disrupting their midline characters, or blacking out a melee toon etc. Monster A.I. simply can't keep up with it and is easily duped into bunching up for meteor showers (see searing eles in DoA).

Why the change?

As for spirt of failure, the problem is part of an issue with hexes in general as compared to conditions. As pointed out by stueyman2099 the skill resources of the game given to a team to deal with hexes are much less efficient and cost effective than skills able to deal with conditions. Monks have a boatload of extremely efficient skills to deal with conditons, Mend, Draw, RC, Dismiss, extinguish, etc. Warriors themselves have become pretty much unconcerned about conditions with the introduction of skills which are commonly on their bars like mend touch. Of course there are also Melendrus Dervishes...gg conditions. Hexes on the other hand, while individually less potent, could be easily combined with other hexes in certain team builds to essentially neuter an offense (Price and Spirit with Reckless which is AoE, or shadow of fear etc) etc. The problem is that resources to deal with hexes have been, and still are, underpowered relative to the ability of a team to stack hexes across your team. Divert for example is a slower cast, doesn't necessarily dig deep enough, slower recharge than RC. Its also generally much less useful. So being forced to run a Divert monk to have a prayer against the prominent hex teams means you put yourself at a big disadvantage in any other match. There are no, mends, draws, and extinguishes for hexes. The comparable skills are all either more costly, and much slower on recharge. Now of course there is a balance to be had here. Since a hex like spirit of failure is less effective on its own than a blind in a way, we don't necessarily want something _exactly_ equivalent to a mend condition for hexes. But, there needed to be something done in order to bring the ability for a team to effectively deal with hexes without completely handicapping themselves in every other matchup more in line with a teams ability to deal with conditions. What the skill adjustments gave us was the toning down of certain hexes (spirit for example) while also improving the quality of hex removal. We will see in time if this was enough.

HolyHawk

HolyHawk

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2006

lf guild~

Me/A

I'd say it was just a wrong approach. It's been sorta of broken for a long while, but not because the energy gain, nor the 25% miss, but the 30sec duration. It's 3 second casting afterall, you hardly see it anywhere else other than mesmers. Scale duration along with energy gain, and the skill would become acceptable. Right now, it's just another inspiration skill that becomes less effective, even if there's auspicious incantation that's pretty good now.

Sujoy

Sujoy

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Sep 2006

In Livia's Cleavage (.)ME(.)

The Early Monk Heals The Worm [EMHW]

Mo/

Dude Winstar, whats the use of having all that content if all the professions get nerfed in PvE to suit PvP players wishes. Its hell in PvE, everytime you start liking your characters, they get nerfed.

Don't get me started on the mesmer in PvE... mesmer in PvP don't complain, wonder why?

Winstar

Winstar

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Feb 2006

London

Actually, just removing my post to try and keep this from being another giant pve v pvp thread.

sindex

sindex

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2006

California

Swords of Night & Day [SWRD]

I am hoping and I hope your hoping too; that when the PvE only skills come around they are clearly much more justified and give the Mesmers a complete over haul. Clearly I think that is A-net’s goal in the next official update. That way some of this mess gets cleared up, hopefully real good.

They are clearly much sought after to screw with people in PvP, and some are preferred choice in doing several things in PvE. However I would like to see mesmers really sink their teeth into PvE now.

Winstar

Winstar

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Feb 2006

London

Actually, speaking of conditions, they currently suffer the opposite problem. I think there are simply too many ways to deal with them and that while hexes need to come down, conditions actually need to rise up a little.

Nekretaal

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2007

nothing is wrong with this skill. pvp wants more physical and less caster in the next metagame. It'll be rebuffed later when pvp gets tired of physicals and want to play casters again

Winstar

Winstar

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Feb 2006

London

No, both price and reckless and hexes in general are problematic. Its not that everybody just wants physical damage, and no proper counters to it, the issue is that the power level of hexes were to high compared to the options available for teams to deal with hexes. The point is not to remove hexes from the metagame, but to make it so that they are not overpowered part of the metagame.

EDIT* As has been discussed to death elsewhere, the other side of this problem is the current map selection process. Build and Hall are too closely linked right now, the ability for a team to select a map on which they can force the fight they want essentially eliminates a lot of strategic options that would otherwise help you beat hexes without having to resort to neutering you build by running Divert on a monk and multiple purges, or expel somewhere to have a chance to be in the game. For example hexes on Jade (see Celestial tournament playoffs). On another map like Uncharted and other halls that are at least split-possible a more balanced team has other options available to them.

HolyHawk

HolyHawk

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2006

lf guild~

Me/A

I won't deny that ways of hex removal are still limited considering how fast the can be applied and renewed; however, looking at the skill alone, it's not as threatening as price of failure. Mesmers can be powerfull yes but they are very limited on skill combinations, and are most likely tied to reserve 2 skills on their bars just for e-management. If you wanna ever play degeneration mesmers, you are probably taking persistence in your bar, and it's not that easy to keep up with proper energy return. It's similar to a searing flames bar, half of it is dedicated to energy management. Spirit of Failure is a part of it.

Now look carefully at mesmers; they have 2 offensive attributes and that's all. Inspiration is mostly defense/utility, and has been nerfed for so long that they should just do power drain net you 10 energy, to rip the line. Now you change a skill that is used mainly by mesmers, in a line that kinda sucks, in a class with 2 attributes that are agressive and where the primary attribute is completely passive. It's complicate to do that, and need a lot more thought put on it before actually changing anything.

My point is, I do see that the skill needed a change, but the class is getting too limited; you are forcing them to use the very same domination skills, and even those were touched on this update too. I won't even go to pve because I can deal with it there, besides, nothing has been done to make mesmers attractive in pve, other than shiny armor sets.

Last question, why has this been moved to pve discussion if the reason of the skill changing had absolutelly nothing related to pve?

Div

Div

I like yumy food!

Join Date: Jan 2006

Where I can eat yumy food

Dead Alley [dR]

Mo/R

Don't underestimate 25% of their attacks missing. Also consider the fact that with other hexes stacked on top of them, you may get more energy back.

Winstar

Winstar

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Feb 2006

London

pretty much in agreement. It would be nice to see something a little more active out of the inspiration line which was at best something splashed to suppliment a dom bar, and since adjustments to it not even that.