The 5 man Guild.. And how to stop it.

So you want a god damn helluva lot for absolutely NOTHING? WRONG. We don't care how old your guild is. We don't care how many people have left your guild.

THE SAME THING HAPPENS TO ALL OTHER GUILDS. PERIOD.

Just because someone joins your guild, they should be there forever? Oh yeah of course they should. I lead my own guild and yeah I've invested hours helping new players only to find they have left next time I log on. I'll live. My philosophy is, if they didn't want to be here then I don't want them to be here.

About the rating and ranked for your guild. I can personally guarantee you that if you take 8 people and GvG, by the end of it you will have your very own rating and rank. You want your guild to be given a spot on a competitive ladder that you have not earned? wtflolz

Don't force a style of playing upon others. If they want it that way, and it is possible in game, then for goodness' sake LET THEM!

Ever hear the saying about "don't assume, it makes an..." never mind.

Indeed I have been the leader of an active mostly-PvE guild for almost as long as you have. Ours formed in May 2005, so not quite two years old but perhaps my view may still have some merit in your eyes?

We've gotten full to 100 members, have had to do periodic purges, even formed a sister guild. Am I qualified to comment yet on the effect small guilds have had on our growth?

I have seen members come and go. They fit in and stay, they don't fit in and leave, they have goals of their own to be a leader of a guild, or they want to do GvG more often so they move in that direction. I try not to take it personally when they leave, but you can't make everyone happy.

We don't use our hall very often for GvG, but we sure use it for trading, merching, storaging, chatting, dancing, sugar-rushing, drunkarding, you name it. Will you impose a penalty on us for only using it for GvG once or twice a year? Obviously ANet doesn't believe the ONLY reason you have a hall is for GvG, otherwise why make all the services available there. (It's particularly handy when you're adventuring in Cantha, and can't use the merchants in Jade Sea or Echovald Forest because of your faction! )

Do you also hold the belief that the only reason guilds ought to form an alliance, is to fff to own a town? Otherwise, guilds that don't fff are wasting an alliance, and detracting from the pool of guilds who DO fff? If our guild couldn't be in an alliance for purely friendship reasons (we were a group of friendly guilds starting in Prophecies), there is no waaaaay in heck I would join an fff alliance, just to be in an alliance. See the parallel?

If your guild has been around longer than ours has, and you still don't have enough members to make a GvG team... well, I'm not sure what to tell you about that.

Good luck.

And my guild has only been around since August of 2005... I've been an officer from the startup. It's never been large, but a few months ago we had 7 (more than half of our active members) leave and form a new guild. That hurt a lot, but I don't question their right to do so.

(Okay, so that first night I really, really didn't want them to be able to make a new guild and enjoy themselves, but I got over it!)

A guild is never going to work, if the leadership wants to force members to stay. Besides being impossible to do, what kind of game play is that going to produce? You can't have a successful GvG team with grudging membership and no mutual goals. You can't have a successful PvE guild with the same problems either. And I don't measure success by the number of members, I measure it by the satisfaction we have in playing, chatting, and having fun in game. We're small, but successful.

One more point, IMO a full friends list would be a more important tool for a guild that wants to GvG, but can't always muster a full team, than for a PvEr.
Playing in TA or HA with non-guildies to round out your team should result in meeting people who are in the same boat as you. Calling on that list should help a lot, and when things go well, may result in new members for your guild.
Assuming things go well when you play with others.

This would mean that anyone say even 3 or 5 11 year olds can go and make up a Guild is that what the games original intention was No. It was to be more competive in a competive game as to why skill balances happen.I don't know how you managed to get up to 100 members but I am even having a hard time with getting 20 loyal members that share the same goals as I do.

Then again there are lots of guild hoppers who take advantage of Guilds out there.I guess Indie will have to do more at getting Guild Section together much like the Board I am a Super Moderator on.We go to great lengths to support the clans on our boards.

Big guilds-Not noticed

Small guilds(less than 30 people)-Noticed


So dont see what your problem is. and Creating a guild should not cost 20p, not every player is as rich as you think they are.

Oh yeah btw pls stop being lazy and turn public chat off.

Absolutely. If you convince someone to stay who wants to go, it'll never end well. Sometimes people leave because they feel like they don't fit in, or aren't seeing something they were expecting, what's important is that if they had stayed they would have been a weight to the guild. There's few things more frustrating to Guild Leaders than when members won't talk or have fun, and don't seem to even realize they're in a guild.

If someone leaves and you don't know why, don't take it personally, and be happy that they left now rather than draining some resources before they went.

I don't see the problem with small guilds at all... as long as they're happy with it. I'm in a rather small guild (19, compared to the 60-man guild I was in before) and it's not much different. We're close-knitted, chatty, ready to help each other and we team up together daily. We want people that fit in and so far, maybe 4 people left the guild and one of those came back after a week. If they're not happy, they'll notice it right away and they'll either adjust to us or leave the guild. We warn them that we're pretty much experienced, that we're not really into PvP, the areas we usually farm, the kind of atmosphere we have, a bit of a background... and well, so far, it has worked.

I don't know if it's going to become a HUGE guild, but we surely want new members. Our goal is just to have friendly people who share common goals and can help us achieve it... nothing wrong with that IMHO, since it's what every guild wants, may they be GvG guilds to have a core group, or HA guild to gain more fame and HA experience.

From experience all of the largers guilds I have been in have eithre a) many inactive members and/or b) dont know each other at all. Awhile ago I was an officer in a guild with about 20 people in it. I honestly talked to the members probably about once every other week but I was good friends with the other officers and the leader so it was one of the best guilds I was in. Would it have been any less if we just kicked the 15 members? No. There seems to be a pattern to most if not all guilds I have been in. At some point an officer or three breaks off with some of the members to form a different guild because of different ideas on what to do inside the game. (ex: one guild wants to TA and the other GvG) This usually turns out for the best but results in smaller guilds (though maybe not 5 man) Your topic here " The 5 man Guild.. And how to stop it. " is plainly ridiculous. If you are in a 5 man guild and dont want to then leave it. If you arent in a 5 man guild then leave them alone. Smaller guilds arent bad, and if you dont like your small guild then do something about it besides complain on a forum. If you are a leader of a guild you are committed to that guild. You say you want to GvG? Then advertise (ie spam chat) that you are looking for GvGers and they will come. You will have people that wont have the same philosphy with PvE or GvG and THEY WILL LEAVE. But you are financially supporting the guild and if you want more members than you will have to spend more money.

I believe any game's original intention is to have fun. Are you saying you don't want these 3-5 11 year olds safely tucked away in a guild by themselves, you'd rather they be in your guild? I'd wager not.

To be honest, yes there was about a third of the list in the original guild roster who were quite inactive, but I nursed hopes that they would come back. I didn't have the heart to kick them, so we formed the sister guild to hold more people (and second accounts, etc). It ended up being close to 100 actives between the two.

There will be guild hoppers regardless. Sad, but true. I won't hold Inde responsible for that, though.

From my point of view, there is nothing wrong with small or even 5-man guilds at all. I'm currently in a rank 600-ish guild, with only about 12 people in it. I am an officer in the guild, and am very good friends with the other officers. The members dont pvp as much as the officers do, but they do enjoy helping out and substituting for us when we need them. Of course, every now and then, one of them might decide to leave, and we bid them farewell. You're not going to keep every member that joins you, but that makes it easier to help out and get to know the people that do stay. All of the officers in this guild, I am very close to, and it works out well. Basically, a guild doesn't have to be large, or have many members at all to be competetive. With a little coordination and friendship, you can gvg a lot more in a small guild, than a large guild.

Okey dokey then..were to start

Right, first off, recruiting is not about anything with your guild but luck. Yes, I'v ran clans, Yes, I'v ran all sorts of other things, up to 50+. This game, I can't get a lickin' person or two. Why? People want to be in "thier friends guild" which, of course, cuts on the playability. (Don't tell me it doesn't, for ever 5 man guild that DOESN'T play in GvsG, it is one less team in the ladder) The Game was built on the whole princable of PvsP,GvsG,TvsT.

The non maturity also hurts the game overall, or the people who avoid the trade by putting \/\/TS. Age seems to get the concept, the guilds really should be 20P (But the invites would be free,as well as the cape.) Maybe I also imporperly named this topic, It's the dedication to the game and even why I will stop playing it form time to time.

You get teams made of 5, wanting to be GvsG, but they just can't recruit, why? Cause everyone wants to be with their friend. That's great,really,so bring them over. But they don't,why? Simply because of the right to be "Boss". I'v seen people recruit,offering Officer postions to people simply for joining.

I'm going to do a bad thing now. Recruiting in WoW is alot easyer then in GW. WoW,in terms of PvsP, is alot more fun then GW. Why do I play GW? Simply because the concept of the PvsP and GvsG is much better then WoW. The foundation is there for one hell of a competive game. One that I'd get into IF guilds were more into it. The Guild stature, as it stands,reminds me more and more of Free MMORPG's. Complete and utter chaos of teams getting no where and only maybe 30-40 real "Teams" which no one can really get into

Now, I know alot of you don't agree, thinking that it doesn't stop the playablity, that it's grand that we have countless 5-man teams all not willing to merage into another group (It'd be nice if GW had a feature like that). I also have a feeling some of you almost found it insulting that I bashed on the smaller teams. If I did that, I'm sorry

Now, if you could make single person alliances with people, pacts, which would allow you to chat with them like in a room.I think that would cut down that problem, or even friend channels, so that everyone could set up a individual room, thus cutting down on the whisper problem. Yes, it is annoying to talk to 3 people via whisper, but let's say all of them are in different guilds and they are all friends? You still have the same problem.

I think gives everyone somethin' to kind of chew on and maybe bring this to a more productive way where we can all agree on the subject.

When starting, yes, I believe that is absolutely 100% true. The way we grew, however, was exactly what you say below:

Our members are happy, they have fun, we do lots of things together and on our own, and... they get their friends and family to join up. That's where most of the membership came from, people coercing their RL peeps in. And I like it that way. When they have real relationships in the guild, they tend to stay. There have also been some real friendships forged after meeting in the guild, which is wonderful too.

Yes, the Napoleon complex thing, and yes, the very unappealing recruiting you see in towns. There is no practicable cure for immaturity. And again, if the spammers are so immature, they won't last long anyway. Their good members won't stay, or they'll recruit an officer with a chip on his shoulder who kicks or promotes everyone, or something.

Conversely, there is the chance that they may grow large enough to compete in GvG themselves--the "original intention of the game"--maybe they draw strength from their combined immaturity to make great competitors. Who knows?

I'll ask again: are these immature players you are trying to prevent from forming guilds, the ones you want to attract to your guild? If the answer is "no," then you're just being spiteful toward young immature players that you don't even know.

I can't comment on WoW, other than "WoW, free my husband! I want him back!" lol

Are you and Age going to merge guilds?

^^This is a good idea. Friends channel would be fun.

But I don't think I'd want to compound the problem. Occasionally I have that problem now as it is.

Well, that's cool, but I don't think we're going to agree. You wish to hinder people's freedom to play the game the way they choose, and I do not.

:-P Well, I wouldn't consier it hindering a freedom, I would think it as a modivation to create more deidcated guilds. But I think we'll just have to agree to disagree and see where the game is going to go. I did see some of your points of course, hopefully vise versa. Maybe one day a middle grould will be achive so we can have mature dedicated teams that do GvsG ( I never talked about having massive 90+, I'd be happy with a 30-40 sized guild). Anything bigger, it becomes too big, but 8 people who want to form a guild (8 people who all have the same goals is easyer to find) sharing the cost of 20P is only 2500G (2.5P). Which is pretty much the price for what I was trying to get across, (8\20,000=2,500) While it stands (1\100+2P plus 7 invites (For same numbre of invites) = 2.8P)

I think that's something more possiable? How about that way, Instead of one person paying it, Have a trail stop, where 8 of your friends cough up 2.8 (I make that in about 3-4 hours of playing time, more then worth paying the cash for), and you'll have your guild with 8 people who you'v sat down, planned out excatly what you want to do.

Personlly, I think Guilds should only be created for GvsG stuff. Personlly, I know alot of GW players like the PvsE.. So I think that would be a nice blance,as I'm thinking about it. I mean, Finding 8 random people (Still a small guild) and to stop the immatureity. I have the upmost respect for the people who have talked in this thread.

Anyways,your thoughts?

My thought is that you seem to have blinders on about what GW was intended to be. Yes, an important part of it is GvG, and guilds of course are the central focus of that style of play. But the fact remains that the developers also included PvE play in this game. Guilds are meant for those players too, and you ignore that fact.

Plus, raising the cost of starting a guild will not make any difference to the problems you bring up. It's not hard at all to make money just playing the PvE game, never mind farming.

I don't have a solution to your problem of not getting/keeping "good" guild members. I don't there is any 'one' solution. But I can't understand why you think preventing people from making small guilds with friends or acquaintances or total strangers will make them any more apt to join your or other guilds. Or stay once they do join.

And out of curiosity,in your 30-40 member ideal guild, what would the 25 -30 people who don't get to play GvG do while your A team plays? Think they will be happy to sit around waiting for the call up? Or will they want to maybe start a smaller guild where they decide who plays when?

I really disagree with that. Why only GvG? If it's because of the rank and core group, I don't care for rank, and as many people said to destroy the small guild argument, is that you can get the same with yoru friend list and team chat. GG.

Not everyone's into GvG for the same reason. As I said, I don't care about rank at all. I lack that sense of competition because I don't CARE if I'm better than others... all I want is to meet new people, improve my skills in the game. But others care indeed about the rank, the fame, the PvP stuff... if it's what they have fun with, good for them, I won't stop them at all. But I don't want to be hindered either, and not having a guild because I don't GvG at all would hinder me

I used to rush like mad with this game. I had no friends, no references to improve, no goal. I met up with PvE guilds, notably [dei], who were of a great help to me. I got encouraged to do stuff, to improve, then to help people who are going through the same. To me, having a guild makes this game enjoyable at a point that where when I'm guildless, I won't play.

I said personlly, for the simple reason that whatever area I find myself in, I can always find someone who wants to do PvsE (normally) and if I play with a certin person (or people) There is a friends list for that.


I do understand alot of the people in GWG (here) like the guild for everything under the sun. But of course, no one looked at the math. My way IS cheaper in the end. (refering to Grubcat).

Lastly, about that 35-45 man GvsG, Notably, Activity would flex, some people one night, some others, there are also FvsF to keep sharp, even PvsP, gearing toward the more comptive aspect of GW.

The aspect of being able to pool resources is an interesting one. I know a lot of our guildies actually want some way of being able to contribute to the guild somehow. I and the officers all bought the gh services, so there’s not much really left to contribute toward. I think people want to be generous, but there’s no mechanism for doing it, and I’m certainly not going to accept money directly from a guildie under any circumstance.

I understand the strong feelings some people have toward GvG, but in the end, the game is NOT all about GvG, period. Yes, the game is called Guild Wars, but the only mention the words “Guild Wars” gets in the storyline—storyline! who needs a storyline??? lol—is when Rurik mentions it as happening in the past during a cutscene of Ruins of Surmia mission.

Incidentally, I would not have even started playing GW in the first place, if someone had told me that I’d be expected to and possibly required to do PvP. I like it now, but my response then would have been, “What’s PvP?” I didn’t even get interested in PvP until maybe 6 months into playing.

A person starting out alone in Prophecies wants to play alone or with one other person, or they want to wear a cape, or prevent the invite-spam that apparently happens to those with no guild [tag]. Whatever their reason is for forming their small guild, is a valid one. But I happen to recall how difficult it was to make money in Prophecies until much much later in the game. 20k is a huge amount and inappropriate.

Our guild began as a group of about 4 people who knew each other (some better than others, they were mostly coworkers of my husband’s). I wasn’t the original leader, but we were all officers. The original leader didn’t want to grow the guild at all, but (teehee) we all started inviting people (by meeting and playing with people, not by recruiting actively) and we’ve been going strong ever since.

I’d never deny anyone the chance to begin the way we did, or experience the great feeling of having a guild of people who care about one another the way we do.

Lots of good discussion back and forth but I would argue that the entire guild system in GW is implemented in such a way as to encourage a proliferation of small, ultimately unsuccessful guilds. Why?

First, starting a guild is very, very easy. Nice in theory, probably too easy in reality for the simple reason that the game ends up with many weak guilds started by players who simply don't understand how much time and money it takes to maintain a guild. Making it harder to start a guild either by making it cost more or putting in additional requirements that a player has to accomplish prior to being able to start one would help this problem.

Second, I don't care if a guild is large, small or somewhere in between. Any size can work if it works for the members of the guild. My favorite guilds I have been in have tended to be not too small (too much time with no one on) and not real large (too impersonal). But that's me, each player will have their own preference. The problem is FINDING a suitable guild. I've been in a couple that I really liked that folded as people lost interest in the game. I've lead a guild for months that I really enjoyed and again people moved on and the few remaining decided we'd rather find a new home vs. the constant futile attempts at recruiting and retaining people. But the root cause of the constant spamming and guild attrition is that people can't find a guild that they like so they go through the Goldilocks routine trying to find one that's "just right" for them. I'm there now...I cannot find a guild that I feel fits my GW interests, so I am forced to try out a few guilds and keep leaving until I stumble across the right one.

Having a better guild recruitment tool would eliminate a fair chunk of this problem. Why has ANET created a system that relies on blind luck and happenstance for people to find suitable guilds? I've come close a few times to giving up on guilds entirely (even considered having a guild of one like one of the earlier posters) but I keep going with the hope that I will find something similar to what I have happened across in the past. Seriously, if Amazon can predict what I might like to purchase and eHarmony can supposedly find me a spouse and a basic search tool can pull me through a product decision tree why shouldn't we expect a better way to find a guild in GW?

I think there should be a clickable so a non-guild person can choose to have invites sent to him or not. Even if it makes a "false" tag that can lure people into thinking you are in one

The cape should only be GvsG, That's what the cape is. A tool for GvsG, yes, it looks pretty. But why do you need in PvsE?

Anyways.. My ideas.. Tossin around. I think the heat of the disction has gone down and we can maybe find a middle ground that we can all agree on.

These little annoying worthless guilds that are no better than a glorified friends list do annoy me. What is even worse is that people that try to recruit you into these guilds, where you have no purpose then you leave several days later. People need to know how to use the friends list. The fact that you can make a guild in the presearing for only 100g is something that contributes to this- its becuause everyone came make them and say "zomg i am teh 1337 i have my own guild join it plz or i will spam u!!!11!!" But on the other hand, huge guilds are bad too. they put a cap of 100 on the guild so it just wouldent get out of hand. If you have 100 people in your guilf there are probably a bunch of inactive people and a bunch of randomly recruited people who serve no purpose in bettering the guild. Most sucessefull gvg guilds have a small amount of people, mostly to fill out the gvg team and some more people for backups. But something like raising the price to make a guild should be done.