MM vs tactics

What I mean by this is the following:

A player group can use tactics to be more effective. Using aggro properly or luring correctly and attacking the same target simultaneously are examples of this.

Contrary to that there are builds like the MM (though there are more examples) that can save the player group from the stupidity of 1 or more individual players. Examples would be the evercharging Wammo's , 3 players who are targetting and mainly targetting different targets because they think their idea is better than the others. Or players that aggro different enemy groups for the same reason. People who don't watch their compass and just end up aggroing multiple groups or the most hated leechers....etc. etc.

So I wonder what you all think of this. Because I think that part of PvE balancing problems is the fact that a party of 8 with let's say less experienced players has to face the same enemies as a well oiled fighting team of wintered players and be able to succeed.

Not quite sure what you are getting at. No offense to be taken, but all I see is a cloudy statement and no discussion. Maybe rephrase? There looks like there could be a discuss able topic in there.

Summary?: Are MMs a simple way of avoiding using ability or tactics?

Stop stereotyping w/mo. Just because they are expected to be the first to engage in combat they become the scapegoat when things go wrong.

on - topic
Your wording isnt too good but ill take a guess ,It sounds like your trying to say:
"People are using easier builds such as MM, rather than ones relying on tactics, why?"

Probably because theres a higher chance youl succeed with a bad MM than a bad blood necro. People like to play it safe and would rather not rely on skill, thats why 99% teams consist of: Healer,Tank,Nuker.

Group tactics > MM IMO.

At first glance I thought you were talking about the warrior attribute Tactics. :P

MM is not really my taste it just boring spamming blood of the master.I prefer death nova and kill my minons over keeping them alive.

Sorry if it was unclear....do you agree that because of the wide range of skill level of the PvE players (mainly from the casual to the daily players) there is a need for some overpowered builds and/or skills? And that this has caused problems for classes like the mesmer and even attribute lines like hammer mastery or blood because the average player only sees the value of the MM's power over the less understood and more tactical choices?

MM is just easier than actually thinking about positioning, proper pulling or shutdown.

Pure damage > Smarts in PvE

^_^

This fosters PvE players with no real gaming intelligence who suddenly run into brick walls when they run into missions that require it.

Hence you hear people whining about DOA...its not hard...just time consuming -.-

Yeah pretty much.

MM + tactics = win

I don't know why a MM is outside the realm of tactics.

I dont think Cthulhu is saying an MM cannot be used with tactics.

I think what they are saying is, most people use MMs as a crutch to supplement intelligence and tactics.

In a hectic fight, with poor players running around like chickens with no heads, a MM can singlehandedly be the reason the party survives to move on to the next mob, thanks to the DPS.

It is not. It is just when you have almost endless supply of auto attacking meat shields, it lends to auto-piloting the mission.

The MM is easier for the casual player to pick and play due to the fact that any errors in judgement/tactics may not necessarily spell disaster to the minions offering you and escape route.

The Tactics and understanding of skills and the way they interact is not a simple process that most casual players will comprehend. With over 1700 skills, the party synergy is better understood by the more "hardcore" gamer.

That doesn't mean that casual players are any less intelligent or unable to think about the different skill combinations within each profession, then added to the secondary professions, then factor in a party of eight, or most often one player and seven heros/henchies.

It just means they don't have the time.

Are we talking about PuG here? Well, I'll say it anyway.

Imagine you're making a team with your guildmates. You know them well enough and know they're playing well. The mission you're going to do is quite hard, with some risky points that could lead to instant failure if things go wrong (let's just imagine that such place is existed ok? XD). Recap: You don't want to fail/replay too many times if at all. You're not doing it for fun today, you want to finish it.

Now, for some reasons, one of your guildmates tell you that instead of playing a Necro/Monk MM as he usually do, he'll bring his....Ranger/Necro MM instead. He says "Trust me, it works". And when you agree to let him use the build, some other people decide to bring some weird builds like "E/W Fire/Hammer melee" and "Mo/P Boon Chanter" and "Mesmer/Rt Spirit Spammer ("I know it doesn't work with Fast Cast", he says)" instead...

Question: What would you do?

Now, imagine this stuff happens in PuG, where you don't really know the person you're inviting and god knows how good he is at playing the game.

Can you blame people who want to play with something that works? Let's face it, even with the most-played build, there's still some chance of failure if the player playing the build is "very bad" at playing it. Do you risk it with some unknown builds, when you just want to finish the mission?

/agree
(12 chars)

It doesn't have to be, but the fact is that minions are mindless, and even the best MM can't control what they do. How can you have tactics when your minions will follow a kiting priest into another group and aggro them? How can you have tactics when your minions wander a bit too far from the MM when running and trying to avoid a group of enemies nearby and end up aggroing said group? How can you have tactics when some minions have a delay of movement and linger behind long enough to aggro a wandering group behind you? It's too easy for a planned tactic to fail because of idiotic minion AI.

MM is a safety net for many people. Why set up a tactic to let only the warrior take an aggro when they can have an army of undead taking some of the damage for them? It's just the mind set many of the average/casual players use. They don't have or want to spend the time overanalyzing things when most of the time a MM will suffice.

Much of PvE is easy enough without planned tactics anyways

Most of the deep end-game or elite regions you can't really use an MM for anyhow, corpses aren't as frequent and everything else gets a magic little AI boost and also blows them all up in significantly less hits. Level 28 > level 18.

For the record: I prefer tactics. I prefer it enough that even one of my names is "Tactics Fairy".

I agree that its a safety net. Seriously, I've played as a minion master before, and I must say it makes the game's "easy mode" switch turn on. The enemy AI doesn't target around them, and even when it does, its probably too late for them anyhow. They provide solid buffers, and hiding places for your monks, or in the event that too many groups get pulled together. Some places, like the flame temple corridor if it were inhabited by level 26's, there are just too many closely positioned (though stationary) mobs for even a minion army to handle.

Keep in mind that minion masters have changed alot over time, first that there's now the minion-control limit and improvements to blood of the master, and now we also have the modification to Soul Reaping to deal with.

Just my two cents: Wouldn't it be smarter to use the easiest method to complete a given task? If a team with a MM can roll a mission with ease then what's wrong with using that method? Furthermore, if a group knows that they could complete the mission with a MM and one is available, but pass on the option because it's "NOOB" or does not require "skill" how is that smarter?

It's not only that minions provide some decent DPS. They're also some very helpful meatshields.

And easiness will always outwin tactics and strategy - because being a MM is easy.

From my experience as a MM I can say yes it can bea brain dead job, but the MM brings several items to the table such as Preventing damage and taking aggro of the enemy, distraction, damage, even regenerate energy for allies (I personally made my duty to bring Blood Rit). I hardly play my mm nec anymore since the release of NF since heros seem to be better playing one and who would want a human mm over a ninja reflex AI MM. I do agree how ever not every place a mm be used (I like playing a blood line Well/Damage nec from time).

I may be just your classic MM but I enjoy what I play. Personally with all the changes done to the various mm skills/Soul Reaping I wish they would remove the minion cap since with botm you will kill your self in one hit with too many:/ ( I miss the difficulty and challenge of maintaining a large army).

Overall a mm takes pressure off of the monks in the group.

Bringing an MM is a tatic... it's a decission to fight by overpowering and seperateing the enemy, instead of makeing surgical strikes aginst an equeal enemy. one tatic isn't better then the other, it's all a mater of personal prefrence.

and like it was pointed out above, everyone plays it diferent. some bring the army, the guy above likes to use his as jihad bombers, and others use low lvl minnions that die easy to keep energy charged so they can cast other spells.

as long as a group is killing baddies, and compleates their missions/quests, then it's a good group.. and each group is going to do things their own way.

Yea, TY. I was getting grouchy preparing to say that myself.

Your problems stem from not using the correct tactics with a MM. They can live through really bad tactics - either rushing and or trying surgical strikes and enemy avoidance - simply because of their power. However, if you treat them like the older hench and realize you must engage pretty much *every* group then things become much easier. Personally, I do not like playing a MM, I had one in the past but now use Olias if I want one. I like playing around with different builds, may or may not have him on a team.

As far as aggro management goes, you can rush in if the group is isolated - no problem there. If in a human group or with Olias flag them well back while you pull. If you are the MM and need to pull run ahead, fire your arrow and *immediately* run backwards (again, same tactic used in pulling with the old hench or an animal companion). It rarely fails and if you wait until the monk that normally runs is in the back of the group the minions will typically not target it (they tend to target the first ones they see when first engaging).

You also need to clear pretty much every group. For one thing they do tend to spread out and will gather aggro from behind and seem to have a bigger aggro bubble than you do. Plus the MM is better with a constant fresh stream of corpses, if you avoid very many fights you end up with fairly weak minions when you need them.

If what you wrote above is your main issue with them then you are playing a bad MM tactics wise. You still have aggro management, positioning, and all the other tactics one gets with other classes and it can add quite a bit to their effectiveness. It's just VERY different - like the hench you have to realize *they* are the weapon and you are simply guiding them. Anyone who has henched most (or all) of a protector title more than likely understands what I wrote above very well.

In this I agree. Any class plays MUCH better if you play them correctly (and that includes group dynamics - if the rest of the group needs to avoid combat then a MM is a *really* bad choice). But the MM is about the easiest to play, playing it bad still usually results in a win.

Yep, PvE is mostly just "do not screw up real bad" - as long as the party does that they tend to win.

Mmmm

But MM's take away from other classes.

Which is the reason Sins,ritualist and Mesmers have no homes in a group.

People want the Nostalgic tank, the warrior.
They want the nostalgic nuke, the ele
They want the in every game class, the monk
And now they want something that tanks better than the warrior anyways but they still want a warrior, the MM
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If you have a MM you don't really need a warrior once the mob is up and running, but since people feel that way ritualist,sin,ranger,mesmer, whatever aren't wanted, when those classes can "tactically" Serve better use in some missions.

Remember that they will follow your lead if they are not currently aggroed. Now typically MM's just wand the first target and let the minions attack whoever they want beyond that target. However, you CAN focus them on targets after they have aggroed....sorta.

If you want to pull them to a target, wand it, and keep wanding it. As your minions lose their current aggro (by killing the target or otherwise losing aggro) your wand hits will redirect them where you want. It's not perfect, sometimes it fails utterly, but MMs do usually have some degree of control over minions even in combat.

People give up when they wand a target and no minions re-aggro. You have to keep doing it because you never know when they'll lose aggro on their own....and you have just a split second to direct them before they find a target on their own.

I've seen MMs get used both well and poorly.

MMs can be part of a well-balanced strat, in almost every place that you go. You may not be able to sustain a large undead army in the DoA, but you can minion-bomb with them. They can also be used to overwhlem, overpower, or distract the enemy. Every second that the enemy is beating the undead is another second that they're not focused on your team. This can buy your monks time to heal & recharge, your tank to pressure enemy casters, or in a worse-case scenario, to avoid a party wipe, escape combat.