It is the only thing that no one has any counter whatsoever.
Is there a reason for that? Is there going to be a counter for it?
Edit: I know elite shut-down, blackout and interrupt works, but I mean something that is specifically for anti form.
Why do forms have no counter?
Saphrium
Deleet
Interupts, disabling.
DeXyre
I guess just anti-form would be too narrow, and a 'skill' like endure pain doesn't have a specific counter either.
bhavv
Forms are usable by one class in the game (Dervish). Others may be able to use it too, but the durations would be crap. There really isnt any need to have a specific counter that would only affect a single class, it isnt fair.
Deleet
There are only 5 skills on this type, and they are elite.. Why would one need a specific counter?
Chop it Off
they have no counter because one skill to counter "5" elites and shutdown an entire class is pretty friggin evil.
Opeth
KILLL!!!! 
Avarre
You counter forms by countering the Dervish - in theory.
Amadeo
Afaik there are other proffesions with forms too.. 
(Shadow Form.., Mist Form..)
(Shadow Form.., Mist Form..)
VGJustice
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Amadeo
Afaik there are other proffesions with forms too..
(Shadow Form.., Mist Form..) |
Tempy
Get the Nerfbat ready...
Arduin
Well, they are called 'godly' skills for a reason.
Surena
Why would you want a counter when the usual counters already work? Anti-melee for instance? I'd say we rather nerf some necro hexes and their retarded long durations than demanding a counter to "forms".
prism2525
They are counterable. Just slap loads of hexes on them like Blurred Vision, Reckless Haste, Spirit of Failure etc and they won't hit you. Or simply blind them. (if they're not using Melandru's).
For the Avatar of Dwayna it may be trickier, however it doesn't too that much awful damage so a good monk can keep its target up.
For the Avatar of Dwayna it may be trickier, however it doesn't too that much awful damage so a good monk can keep its target up.
Spura
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bhavv
There really isnt any need to have a specific counter that would only affect a single class, it isnt fair.
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Maximumraver
Ward Against Foes > Every Avatar\Form
Crippling Aguish > Every Avatar\Form (Except Melandru's)
Crippling Slash > Every Avatar\Form (Except Melandru's)
Imagined Burden > Every Avatar\Form
I could go on forever...
Crippling Aguish > Every Avatar\Form (Except Melandru's)
Crippling Slash > Every Avatar\Form (Except Melandru's)
Imagined Burden > Every Avatar\Form
I could go on forever...
Evilsod
Exactly... you can only counter the form by countering is as you would any melee foe. Since Dwayna obviously never sees the light of PvP hexes will always work on Forms, since nobody seems to run Blind-bots anymore, Melandrus doesn't really have much protection since anti-melee hexes will still make it miss.
Any skill that could actually remove forms would be overpowered. It would completely destroy the Avatars making them utterly useless, especially in PvE.
Any skill that could actually remove forms would be overpowered. It would completely destroy the Avatars making them utterly useless, especially in PvE.
Mordakai
Not to mention, the recharge is pretty harsh.
There's a reason the mesmer shared Elite skill doesn't work on Forms.
There's a reason the mesmer shared Elite skill doesn't work on Forms.
jummeth
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Maximumraver
Ward Against Foes > Every Avatar\Form
Crippling Aguish > Every Avatar\Form (Except Melandru's) Crippling Slash > Every Avatar\Form (Except Melandru's) Imagined Burden > Every Avatar\Form I could go on forever... |
elektra_lucia
Spell breaker has a counter?
Light of deliverance has no counter unless you interupt it to begin with (just like avatars).
This thread is retarded, just like my post.
Light of deliverance has no counter unless you interupt it to begin with (just like avatars).
This thread is retarded, just like my post.
moko
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Maximumraver
Crippling Aguish > Every Avatar\Form (Except Melandru's)
I could go on forever... |
ONOZ SOMEONE BEAT ME TO IT!
to the actual topic; why have actual form counters when simple shutdown such as hexes, blind, snares off all kinds and distraction exists?
Theus
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Mokone
yeah go on please, the crap you post makes me laugh. lol, crip anguish is a hex, it doesn't actually cripple. >_>
ONOZ SOMEONE BEAT ME TO IT! to the actual topic; why have actual form counters when simple shutdown such as hexes, blind, snares off all kinds and distraction exists? |
A.Any Half-assed Dervish is not going to use their forms the moment they go into battle.They'll use it before hand.
B.Any Half-assed Monk is going to keep their Grenth Dervish clean.It's a miracle if Blind even lasts longer than 3 seconds in higher end PvP.
Rutabaga
weapon spell and asches can't be removed, is it overpowered?
Theus
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rutabaga
weapon spell and asches can't be removed, is it overpowered?
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There are no Weapon Spells that give players the ability to remove enchantments.There are no weapon spells that give a player immunity to Conditions and and Addtional 100 HP.
But if you think the only reason that these forms are overpowered are because of thier benefits,you're simply wrong.
It's the fact that these forms reside in a class that weilds a 9-41 damage weapon,and can cause large amounts of destruction on its own without a Avatar form.
Personally I'd like to see some sort of "Stamina Cooldown",as in a physical ability that takes a hold of you for using such powers.
I mean,Big deal,your Avatar of Grenth Duration just ran out,It doesn't mean you still can't unleash an asskicking.
Think about it this way:It's exactly like that of giving Warriors Skills like Warriors Cunning,except that one gives him the ability to remove an enchantment with every successful hit with an attack skill or a skill that gives him additional HP and immunity to Conditions,even if they run out,he can still lay into you quite easily.
Sea Edge
Kill the dervish and the form is countered. 
moko
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Theus
Because:
A.Any Half-assed Dervish is not going to use their forms the moment they go into battle.They'll use it before hand. B.Any Half-assed Monk is going to keep their Grenth Dervish clean.It's a miracle if Blind even lasts longer than 3 seconds in higher end PvP. |
and sometimes you are forced to use the skills at risk, and any half decent ranger will watch you.
you cant compare weaponspells with avatars -- weaponspells can be spammed on multiple people, have a lot of different effects and whatnot.
ashes suck anyways.
- Tain -
It's a few skills, and Dervs can do worse to you - deal with it... Weapon spells and chants/shouts are worse imo, but still balanced enough. At least shouts have a couple of hexes etc). But weapon spells, yeah... you would think you could snatch something out of the hands of a blind guy xD
HawkofStorms
There long recharge which is unable to be affected by half cast or other equipement/skills is its counter. Dervishes using forms are only at max efficientcy for half the battle. There is a reason they don't see a ton of play in GvGs (after Grenth was nerfed of course).
zling
forms arent the only things that dont have *specific* counters. shouts/chants/echoes and be stripped, spells that have a duration effect cant be stripped, traps have no counters, etc
no one seems to be complaining about the above, well they used to complain about shouts when the paragorn came out but that's it... and there is no reason to, as all of the above arent perfect, they all have their drawbacks and *natural* counters...
no one seems to be complaining about the above, well they used to complain about shouts when the paragorn came out but that's it... and there is no reason to, as all of the above arent perfect, they all have their drawbacks and *natural* counters...
Str0b0
You actually answered your own question when you listed the possible counters to forms. Interrupts are perfectly viable form counters. With the exception of Melandru blindness works spiffily too since they all rely on their ability to hit you in order to dole out the secondary effects of the form. Where melandru is concerned pretty much any anti melee hex will do so long as it isn't condition dependent. Clumsiness comes to mind.
Zeph
Quote:
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Originally Posted by elektra_lucia
Spell breaker has a counter?
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Tetris L
There are many bonus effects in the game that cannot be removed in any way: Shouts and chants, weapon spells, glyphs, plain "skills", preparations, wells, wards, ... Actually, there are far more non-removable ones than removable ones: Only enchantments and stances can be ended actively.
Thomas.knbk
Specific counters are crap anyway. General counters is what you want. and those work excellently against forms.
Curse You
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Spura
I'll be sure to quote you next time someone whines about echoes or chants having no good counters.
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Also, there are 39 shouts, 19 chants, and 10 echoes, most of which are non-elite. Add to that the fact that they cannot be removed once cast. I'd hardly say that the counters are unjustified.
Chilly Ress
Er....One word. Interrupts.
Coloneh
Forms counter themselves.
First, by sucking and having almost no useful effect for long enough to be worth an elite
and Second by being disabled for 120 seconds
First, by sucking and having almost no useful effect for long enough to be worth an elite
and Second by being disabled for 120 seconds
Thomas.knbk
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Coloneh
First, by sucking and having almost no useful effect for long enough to be worth an elite
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that, sir, is incorrect.
RhanoctJocosa
Your thread is stupid. If interrupting, blackout, etc. aren't counters for the form; the skill, then wtf is? It's just like saying there is no counter for Mind Shock besides Dshot, Diversion, etc. If what you want is a counter to specific forms, such as Grenth's, snares and blind untill it goes down and use the clock to dshot it when it comes back. It should be very easy to dshot the form the second time around since 99% of players want it up as much as possible- unless of course they are under Guardian or something, which in that case you QQ about how imba it is and quit gw. ---- The crippling anguish not affecting a mel derv was pretty funny, i lol'ed = P
Thomas.knbk
RhanoctJocosa wins the thread imo.
unbound00
I think the question was meant more in the ways of why can't it be removed?
Enchantments, hexes, conditions can be removed/prevented wether they are elite or not.
In the case of forms, once they're up there's just no use, you're gonna have to face it's fullest and the oponent doesn't even need to cover it (and if it were an enchant then derv would be very fit to cover it on their on). I don't think that helps much in terms of game balance. And if shout, chants, or whatever can't be removed/prevented either, then they too need to be analised, for instance why not 'enchantment shout/chant/form' and 'hex shout/chant/form'.
Sure you can counter stuff in one way or another, but a lot of the game is ways to make sure your build can prevent itself of being easily countered, and Forms need to make no effort in that.
Enchantments, hexes, conditions can be removed/prevented wether they are elite or not.
In the case of forms, once they're up there's just no use, you're gonna have to face it's fullest and the oponent doesn't even need to cover it (and if it were an enchant then derv would be very fit to cover it on their on). I don't think that helps much in terms of game balance. And if shout, chants, or whatever can't be removed/prevented either, then they too need to be analised, for instance why not 'enchantment shout/chant/form' and 'hex shout/chant/form'.
Sure you can counter stuff in one way or another, but a lot of the game is ways to make sure your build can prevent itself of being easily countered, and Forms need to make no effort in that.