I recently got NF (yes, I'm slow, too bad), and have been enjoying playing with my Paragon. However, while I understand the role of a Dervish, I've yet to find one for Paragon. I'm currently working my way through the campaign and planning on making it defense (lots in command, some in Ld, and in tactics), but my question is: are paragons worth taking in groups? Am I viable pve without doing damage with spears? I like the armor-buffing build I'm using, but if it's just not worth it in the end (I.E. I don't help my party, human or henchie/hero), I'll make a Dervish instead.
Thanks in advance.
Edit: Also, I care nothing for soloing with this guy, I have a good 55 monk to do that with.
Are paragons useful?
Benandorf
clawofcrimson
yes they are... read the OP here:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10144977
and read the threads in this forum..
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10144977
and read the threads in this forum..
Benandorf
I've read many of the threads on this forum, which leads me to worry that really the only way to play them to be semi-useful is to put 16 in spear mastery. And I don't like spears =\
Crazyvietguy
Well as a paragon player myself, spears are essential to gain quick adrenaline, from range.
Now you can search the forums for a ToF Axe Paragon Build which works very well.
Or you can go 12 spear and high command and leadership and focus mainly on more damage output by the party and defense. OR you can go into motivation and focus on health and energy management for your party as well as defense buffs.
Its up to you
Now you can search the forums for a ToF Axe Paragon Build which works very well.
Or you can go 12 spear and high command and leadership and focus mainly on more damage output by the party and defense. OR you can go into motivation and focus on health and energy management for your party as well as defense buffs.
Its up to you
Benandorf
I throw spears, of course, but at level 20 I still have some PoS 6-9 one. It gives me the adren I need, but doesn't dish damage.
Do I need to have spear mastery for any good builds? My current is 12+1+3 command, 9+1 ld and I believe 9 tactics.
Do I need to have spear mastery for any good builds? My current is 12+1+3 command, 9+1 ld and I believe 9 tactics.
Nkah Sennyt
I prefer battery paragons - ie, restoration/zeal chants/shouts/etc. You don't really need a damage spear for that.
Dr Strangelove
Paragon have DPS comparable to a warriors, but at range. You're really making a big mistake if you neglect to use your spear to it's fullest potential. Right now, command is pretty awesome. You can make some really snazzy command/spear/leadership builds, but I wouldn't bother too much with motivation.
Mr Templar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove
Paragon have DPS comparable to a warriors, but at range. You're really making a big mistake if you neglect to use your spear to it's fullest potential. Right now, command is pretty awesome. You can make some really snazzy command/spear/leadership builds, but I wouldn't bother too much with motivation.
I take it you're more of an offensive Paragon then?
See with my paragon build i have:
15 Motivation, 10 Leadership, 9 Spear Mastery and 7 Tactics
This build is primarily defensive designed to help my party, focusing mainly on health management....occasionaly energy management too. At most i have 2 offensive skills (Spear of Lightning and then either Lightbringers Gaze or another Spear skill). I have found this to be a great build.
See with my paragon build i have:
15 Motivation, 10 Leadership, 9 Spear Mastery and 7 Tactics
This build is primarily defensive designed to help my party, focusing mainly on health management....occasionaly energy management too. At most i have 2 offensive skills (Spear of Lightning and then either Lightbringers Gaze or another Spear skill). I have found this to be a great build.
geekling
Are Paragons useful...
Well that depends on your definition of useful. A decent player, no matter what class, can be useful in a party, in that it is preferable to a 7/8 party. But then again, a mending whammo can be useful by the same reasoning.
Unfortunably, after the nerfs to the paragon class, with anet's incompetence when it comes to balance the class in gimmick PvP-teams without destroying it for PvE. Just about anything a single paragon can do, another class can do better, much better.
So, yes, paragons are worth taking in a group. If the group in question is the kind of group that plays to have cooperative-fun not maximum efficiency. That don't mind that that slot in the party probably could be "better" filled by Zhed as a SF nuker, Olias as a MM, or an other hero monk.
The question is, how many of those groups is there out there in GW-land?
It might not be so much that the paragon is bad, per-se. As it does not excel at anything.
Well that depends on your definition of useful. A decent player, no matter what class, can be useful in a party, in that it is preferable to a 7/8 party. But then again, a mending whammo can be useful by the same reasoning.
Unfortunably, after the nerfs to the paragon class, with anet's incompetence when it comes to balance the class in gimmick PvP-teams without destroying it for PvE. Just about anything a single paragon can do, another class can do better, much better.
So, yes, paragons are worth taking in a group. If the group in question is the kind of group that plays to have cooperative-fun not maximum efficiency. That don't mind that that slot in the party probably could be "better" filled by Zhed as a SF nuker, Olias as a MM, or an other hero monk.
The question is, how many of those groups is there out there in GW-land?
It might not be so much that the paragon is bad, per-se. As it does not excel at anything.
clawofcrimson
Quote:
Originally Posted by geekling
It might not be so much that the paragon is bad, per-se. As it does not excel at anything.
With higher base dps than axes and swords.... I'd say the paragon excels at damage. That's why you see so many spear/command builds, The paragon excels at pressure damage and overall team damage output... as well as have some decent supportive skills (condition removal, hard rez, team speed/armour buff etc...) exactly what a midliner should do.
You wouldnt expect a warrior to have no weapon skills... why expect this from the paragon... (in most cases anyway...the bip build for instance would be one exception) with the current state of the motivation line, you shouldnt expect too much from that anyway, apart from all paragon teams.
You wouldnt expect a warrior to have no weapon skills... why expect this from the paragon... (in most cases anyway...the bip build for instance would be one exception) with the current state of the motivation line, you shouldnt expect too much from that anyway, apart from all paragon teams.
Benandorf
*sigh* Well, thanks for the advice, though it seems to be pointing in the direction I had hoped it didn't. I have a level 20 warriors, and have had him for almost 2 full years now (his 2nd birthday is in the next week, I believe). And I have a ranger, who I've had and played with through the better parts of Factions and Prophecies. So I have no wish for another basic DPS class; when I made my paragon, I wanted command/tactics to make sure my team does its thing better.
Also, an update from before, I'm starting to notice that my allies do much better with me than without me. It's very obvious when you have 10 minions running around, where "Go for the eyes!" really spikes damage.
Also, an update from before, I'm starting to notice that my allies do much better with me than without me. It's very obvious when you have 10 minions running around, where "Go for the eyes!" really spikes damage.
clawofcrimson
ya..
the command line has skills that are very good at adding damage... and to be honest I was hoping the same thing for the paragon... Let's just hope for some nice skills in GW:EN.
the command line has skills that are very good at adding damage... and to be honest I was hoping the same thing for the paragon... Let's just hope for some nice skills in GW:EN.
Pick Me
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benandorf
*sigh* Well, thanks for the advice, though it seems to be pointing in the direction I had hoped it didn't. I have a level 20 warriors, and have had him for almost 2 full years now (his 2nd birthday is in the next week, I believe). And I have a ranger, who I've had and played with through the better parts of Factions and Prophecies. So I have no wish for another basic DPS class; when I made my paragon, I wanted command/tactics to make sure my team does its thing better.
Also, an update from before, I'm starting to notice that my allies do much better with me than without me. It's very obvious when you have 10 minions running around, where "Go for the eyes!" really spikes damage. I suppose you can go Leadership, Motivation and Command and have 0 into spears. I don't know if Never Surrender will give minions health regen or not.
Spam shouts can still be the way of the Paragon. True, they changed the effectiveness of the shouts, and buffed the spear mastery. But then again, who said you had to go with spear mastery to be a good party paragon? If your party can do loads of damage without you, then go with pure shouts. You can help the monks out by giving them energy, giving the party healing, removing conditions, maybe removing hexes (Hexbreaker Aria), etc.
Also, an update from before, I'm starting to notice that my allies do much better with me than without me. It's very obvious when you have 10 minions running around, where "Go for the eyes!" really spikes damage. I suppose you can go Leadership, Motivation and Command and have 0 into spears. I don't know if Never Surrender will give minions health regen or not.
Spam shouts can still be the way of the Paragon. True, they changed the effectiveness of the shouts, and buffed the spear mastery. But then again, who said you had to go with spear mastery to be a good party paragon? If your party can do loads of damage without you, then go with pure shouts. You can help the monks out by giving them energy, giving the party healing, removing conditions, maybe removing hexes (Hexbreaker Aria), etc.
pingu666
think i run 12spear, 14/15 command for breakpoint on the party heal one, 8 leadership and 7 tatics. works pretty well 
.
theres a second spike vs party tho, when syg and aegis stop XD
.theres a second spike vs party tho, when syg and aegis stop XD
Dutch Masterr
Personally, i hate paragons. Yes, they can be usefull backup and decent offense, but to me it seems like whatever a paragon can do, another class can do just as good or better.
Benandorf
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutch Masterr
Personally, i hate paragons. Yes, they can be usefull backup and decent offense, but to me it seems like whatever a paragon can do, another class can do just as good or better.
After playing the paragon for a while, I have to agree that anything he can do another class can do better. However, that being said, he can do more than one of them at once, while the other classes do a single one, albeit better.
So he has a place in parties, I think he is just misunderstood.
And that also means I've sorta answered my own original question :P
So he has a place in parties, I think he is just misunderstood.
And that also means I've sorta answered my own original question :P
pingu666
think i run 12spear, 14/15 command for breakpoint on the party heal one, 8 leadership and 7 tatics. works pretty well .
theres a second spike vs party tho, when syg and aegis stop XD
.theres a second spike vs party tho, when syg and aegis stop XD
Prof Of Black
Paragons own.
Range, good ias, pretty high dmg.
Nice conditions, like cruel spear, blazing spear, anthem of flame.
They even own in Pvp!
~Prof.
Range, good ias, pretty high dmg.
Nice conditions, like cruel spear, blazing spear, anthem of flame.
They even own in Pvp!
~Prof.
bungusmaximus
Yeah, throw in [skill]ebon dust aura[/skill] and an ebon spear and you have a pretty mean durable blindbot ^^.
clawofcrimson
http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forum...=451095&page=9
here is some interesting discussion on the paragon.
here is some interesting discussion on the paragon.
Dean Harper
Even though it is better to go with damage or support with paragons, i do enjoy doing both, ie, a few chants, and a few spear attacks.
BradNess
Paragons are leaders, and you need a leader in the group who can spam some great skills while calling targets for the group.
People that flame the Paragon simply don't understand how to use them because they are not a true leader, not to put a dark cloud over those that flame the Paragon but then again not everybody is cut out to be a leader nor can everyone be a leader either.
Paragons need some followers :P I myself have enjoyed the Paragon since the test weekend back in late '06, and I only wish I had found the Party Support build when I started playing him for real in October '06. To me the Paragon = Fun and thats what matters most to me
People that flame the Paragon simply don't understand how to use them because they are not a true leader, not to put a dark cloud over those that flame the Paragon but then again not everybody is cut out to be a leader nor can everyone be a leader either.
Paragons need some followers :P I myself have enjoyed the Paragon since the test weekend back in late '06, and I only wish I had found the Party Support build when I started playing him for real in October '06. To me the Paragon = Fun and thats what matters most to me
Threll
I often run Shout/Anthem/Chant/Echo-centric builds that don't use any Spear Mastery at all. Sometimes I will still chuck spears simply to build up adrenaline for "GFtE!" as a method of energy management... but I'm not doing any damage.
It can be done, and I find it entertaining. My party usually finds it incredibly helpful.
It can be done, and I find it entertaining. My party usually finds it incredibly helpful.
GloryFox
Quote:
the code I use for my Motovation builds are based on this
OQijUinMqOu7hcHed7h5wx4LGA
good luck with your Paragon.
glountz
When playing a paragon, you have to remember Kormir's advice: "NEver fight alone!"
Then you HAVE to adapt to your team. If you do so, paragons are very nasty.
Just some example:
-In your Team comes 2 fire SF eles. Ask them to fill in a Mark of Rodgort. Take a fire spear (the one from the precommand bonus package, for example), then bring Aria of ZEal, and "They're on fire!". The protection from this skill will be to its fullest with ennemies always on fire.
-If you have mutliple warriors or derviches, ask them to bring triple chop/ciclone axe, or many energy-based attacks, then bring Anthem of flame to help them spread fire as trhey use an attack skill, then zealous anthem so they don't have to worry about energy. If they bring costy but interesting defenseive shouts like "Shields up", or if another paragon is in the party, energising chorus comes in mind also.
Ask your teamates their builds, then plan yourself accordingly.
Then you HAVE to adapt to your team. If you do so, paragons are very nasty.
Just some example:
-In your Team comes 2 fire SF eles. Ask them to fill in a Mark of Rodgort. Take a fire spear (the one from the precommand bonus package, for example), then bring Aria of ZEal, and "They're on fire!". The protection from this skill will be to its fullest with ennemies always on fire.
-If you have mutliple warriors or derviches, ask them to bring triple chop/ciclone axe, or many energy-based attacks, then bring Anthem of flame to help them spread fire as trhey use an attack skill, then zealous anthem so they don't have to worry about energy. If they bring costy but interesting defenseive shouts like "Shields up", or if another paragon is in the party, energising chorus comes in mind also.
Ask your teamates their builds, then plan yourself accordingly.
Div
Paragons are also one of the best classes to lead a group of heroes+hench. You get great field vision, high armor to tank if needed, and can provide support in terms of party-wide healing and offensive buffs. They are underrated by typical PUGs, but guild/friend groups can always use the powerful support of one.
haggus71
I can see after a few weeks with a Paragon how well a team with two or more can work. Even with the Henchman Para on the team I cut through mobs and bosses like mad. I can't wait to go on a team with a guildie, or even with Morghan on the list. Hope I can do it before the big nerf schlong comes out of Anet's fly again.