Unlimited Hero's In Hard Mode? - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

Skuld

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2005

Thousend Tigers Apund Ur Head [Ttgr]

A/

25 Apr 2007 at 10:47 - 41

I'm probably in strcpy's 2nd group - albiet a hardcore casual player

At the moment I just use my hero team, with the hench monks and herta for sandstorm, or the warrior henchmen as meatshields. They're just there for numbers, if they removed the hero cap, I would just have an easier time. Doesn't stop me partying with people, as I don't do that a great deal anyway.

freekedoutfish

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2006

E/

25 Apr 2007 at 10:48 - 42

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

I dunno, man... I think you have that backwards. What if I decide "Hey, think I'm gonna try Hard Mode Sanctum Cay today."? Guess what, it's going to take me hours to get a group to do that particular mission. I'm at the mercy of what anyone else wanting to do hard mode wants to do, or taking heroes/finding at least one person and take heroes.

So you're suggesting a full team of heroes, where it's not needed, and half team where it is needed? Yeah, let's complicate things even more.

I edded what I wrote, if you read it again.

But are you putting more priority on completeing hard mode, then you are normal mode? Why?

Normal mode is a neccessity to complete.
Hard mode is just something else to do once you complete normal mode.

Its alot more important to offer a full team of heroes in normal mode incase you cant get a PUG, then it is in Hard mode. Hard mode you can complete when-ever you like, because you will have already completed that campaign.

Hard mode is a luxary. Thats why we need full heroes in normal mode, but NOT in hard mode.

arcanemacabre

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Feb 2006

North Kryta Province

Angel Sharks [As]

25 Apr 2007 at 10:54 - 43

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

I edded what I wrote, if you read it again.

But are you putting more priority on completeing hard mode, then you are normal mode? Why?

Normal mode is a neccessity to complete.
Hard mode is just something else to do once you complete normal mode.

Its alot more important to offer a full team of heroes in normal mode incase you cant get a PUG, then it is in Hard mode. Hard mode you can complete when-ever you like, because you will have already completed that campaign.

Hard mode is a luxary. Thats why we need full heroes in normal mode, but NOT in hard mode.

Where did I put more priority on completeing anything? Confused about that. Regardless, nothing in GW is necessary, period. It's a game, don't lose sight of that.

I gave an example to say that if I ever want to do anything specific in Hard Mode, which I do, and have, it would take me hours to make a PUG. It just ain't happening and you're at the mercy of just whatever is already going on. In other words, you pretty much have to sit in LA, Kamadan, or Kaineng or some other huge town, and spam LFG for whatever HM, or see what others are spamming. You just simply can't go into an outpost somewhere and PUG and go. You almost can't do that in NM, but at least it's easier.

Encourage PUGging in NM, let people build a friends list or guild, then let them rely on those friends/guildies for HM. That sounds more reasonable. In which case, those who couldn't do either don't need heroes in NM, and pretty much have no choice in HM. So, ya know, reverse your thinking.

bhavv

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2006

25 Apr 2007 at 11:01 - 44

Quote:

Originally Posted by MirageMaster

I dont care what you all say, i want full party heros!

I agree.

I really dont care about your rubbish arguments that hard mode is to encourage players to group up because it isnt working for me.

I will carry on using all heros and hench untill we can use all heroes because 80% of human players in this game are noobs/rage quiters/afkers/useless. The only exception to this is guild/alliance groups, which are amazing when we make them.

7 heroes in hard mode will not destroy pug's at all, people that are against using them and want to pug can still do that, people that want to play with their own custom builds using 7 heroes, which for a lot of us is fun, can do that.

And if you like playing with people and still find it hard to create groups, find a new guild.

SotiCoto

Banned

Join Date: Jan 2007

Drazach Thicket

Temple of Zhen Xianren [Sifu]

25 Apr 2007 at 11:04 - 45

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

Where did I put more priority on completeing anything? Confused about that. Regardless, nothing in GW is necessary, period. It's a game, don't lose sight of that.

Bugbear attack.... -_-;

... Life is a game. If you're going to bother taking anything seriously at all, it might as well be Guild Wars as anything else. Something being "a game" is no excuse to dismiss it as any less important than other things.

revelation

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Feb 2006

W/

25 Apr 2007 at 11:07 - 46

I like playing with real people, it's way more fun so I'm fine with 3 heroes per player :P

bhavv

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2006

25 Apr 2007 at 11:13 - 47

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

Bugbear attack.... -_-;

... Life is a game. If you're going to bother taking anything seriously at all, it might as well be Guild Wars as anything else. Something being "a game" is no excuse to dismiss it as any less important than other things.

GW is a game. Most people play it for fun. If a lot of people would find it fun to use 7 heroes, why stop them? If you like playing with pugs, you can still carry on playing with pugs, but there are a lot of people that hate pugs like myself.

bungusmaximus

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2006

Guild Of Handicrafted Products [MaSS]

W/Mo

25 Apr 2007 at 11:19 - 48

Pfft, people are given a present and a split second after they remove the package they want more.
They made normal mode so easy that everyone can do it, thats rather dull for a player like me, so I won't play normal mode anymore unless someone needs help. Hard mode however has refreshed my interest in PvE, If they make that too easy or if they rule out any possibility to team up, PvE has become completely worthless for me in one single update. If I want a single player game I just go to the store, buy one and play it without the lag. People that want it all should work for it and not whine on forums, if this trend continues I should play tic-tac-toe because it offers a bigger challenge then GW.

Kas

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2005

25 Apr 2007 at 11:22 - 49

PuG Hate is the ultimate aftermath of a thousand failed attempts to force oneselfs point of view onto others. Heroes don't disagree with the rubbish people bring to the table but instead just use it. It's some sort of King Nothing problem, someone is good when he listens and agrees with what king nothing has to say. And likewise, someone sucks tremendously if he disagrees with King Nothing.
That is really the problem at hand, GW is not full of noobs and bad players but instead has a "small" monarchy problem (aka megalomania) amongst its players. That and it is cool to hate on noobs, bashing them left and right because you're better *waves at superiority complex again*.

The ironic thing is that many King Nothings with the introduction of the hardmode have realized that "Yay" Sayers are not all that are needed. King Nothing has to plan ahead himself and that won't be solved by yay sayers. Of course King Nothing can't accept his failure and instead thinks that his minions are utterly inferior to himself and that is the sole reason for failure. So logically he now he demands more "Yay" Sayers to solve his problem.

Honestly, the 3 Hero Limit is perfect the way it is. It encourages Party Play without enforcing it onto the players. It's all about options, you know? A full hero party would discourage teamplay and open up doors for even more of a single player experience.
Leave it at the state of an option, don't make it useless but also don't make it mandatory.

P.S.:
Heroes keeping their positions in hardmode is something I truely love about the update.

SotiCoto

Banned

Join Date: Jan 2007

Drazach Thicket

Temple of Zhen Xianren [Sifu]

25 Apr 2007 at 11:26 - 50

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

GW is a game. Most people play it for fun. If a lot of people would find it fun to use 7 heroes, why stop them? If you like playing with pugs, you can still carry on playing with pugs, but there are a lot of people that hate pugs like myself.

... ¬_¬

Could you possibly have taken that comment any further out of context?

I'm an exclusive 100% Hero / Henchie user... I hate PuGs more than you could possibly aspire to. Rarely does a day go buy when I don't get into a flame-war in some mission area with "lfp" spammers...
I don't want to stop people using 7 heroes; I fully advocate it!

So just how the heck did you draw your irrelevant and invalid conclusions from what was basically my complaining about people making arbitrary prioritisations?

bhavv

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2006

25 Apr 2007 at 11:26 - 51

I am actually fine with using 3 heroes and 4 hench in hard mode, however I would prefer if my henchman had 16 in their primary attributes, if herta had

[skill]obsidian flame[/skill] instead of [skill]aura of restoration[/skill],

If sogolon had
[skill]signet of return[/skill][skill]aria of zeal[/skill][skill]glowing signet[/skill] instead of [skill]mending refrain[/skill][skill]resurrection signet[/skill]

and if I could modify my monks based on which area i was playing and give them channeling.

Although I wouldnt be able to use my current build with 7 heroes because I use two paragons D'oh.

Miral

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2005

Hell. AKA Phoenix, AZ

The Gear Trick [GEAR]

W/A

25 Apr 2007 at 11:27 - 52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaia_Hunter

people are dumb

here here!!!

I would like to include two requests pertaining to hardmode and heroes.

1. to players. PLEASE people, use the party search function. don't have to deal with spam, and its automatically set to show if youre in hardmode or not! and best of all, it spans ALL districts!

2. to arena-net. Please tell koss to stop stealing my drops. I already gave him nice weapons and runes for free, yet he keeps on taking. spread the word to other heroes as well. henchmen.... should take gold only.

bhavv

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2006

25 Apr 2007 at 11:29 - 53

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

... ¬_¬

Could you possibly have taken that comment any further out of context?

I meant to state that to people to oppose 7 heroes not just to you.

Vanquisher

Site Contributor

Join Date: Mar 2005

Herts, UK

One Hitter Quitters [QQ]

25 Apr 2007 at 11:36 - 54

I'd rather the allowance of unlimited Heroes in all PvM aspects of the game. Henchmen have horrible bars and it's not really difficult to micro Heroes out of mad AE damage. Henchmen however, always ball up. Oh, and real players also ball up and are bad.

bhavv

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2006

25 Apr 2007 at 11:37 - 55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

here here!!!

2. to arena-net. Please tell koss to stop stealing my drops. I already gave him nice weapons and runes for free, yet he keeps on taking. spread the word to other heroes as well. henchmen.... should take gold only.

hehe, my koss has a Kanaxais Edge and Jacqui's aegis, in fact all my heroes are equipped with nice greens, major or superior vigors and I can only use 3 of them

. Most pug noobs dont even have what my heroes have lol, that means both equipment and skills (full unlock FTW).

arcanemacabre

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Feb 2006

North Kryta Province

Angel Sharks [As]

25 Apr 2007 at 11:55 - 56

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

Bugbear attack.... -_-;

... Life is a game. If you're going to bother taking anything seriously at all, it might as well be Guild Wars as anything else. Something being "a game" is no excuse to dismiss it as any less important than other things.

SotiCoto, I think you took what I said way out of context. My point was that you play the game to have fun, therefore nothing in it is necessary. Yes, it is necessary to beat all missions in order to beat the game, but it's not necessary to beat the game. If you say hard mode is not necessary, I can use that same argument - "It's necessary in order to acquire Guardian and Vanquisher titles". The same applies. If the titles are unnecessary, then so is beating the game - all arbitrary, all in context.

Orbberius

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2005

25 Apr 2007 at 12:09 - 57

No. Keep the PuGs, they are fun.

bhavv

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2006

25 Apr 2007 at 12:12 - 58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orbberius

No. Keep the PuGs, they are fun.

Are you bothering to read anything here? Pugs will still be there if you want to pug, there are however many people like me that will not pug no matter what, we want to use 7 heroes.

If you dont want to use heroes, no one is forcing you, you can keep playing in your pug teams and get pwned whenever your monks mendings get shattered.

Personette

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2007

25 Apr 2007 at 12:20 - 59

I wish I had the option of using a full party of heroes.

I don't hate PUGs, I use them whenever practical, but I don't like waiting more than 5-10 minutes to find one. I don't mind henchmen; I just like my heroes more, and enjoy trying to make up a good team build.

I think that arguments about not expanding hero use because "hard mode is supposed to be hard" (I think that three posts on every page of every thread posted since hard mode opened consist of not much more than this statement) are ridiculous. It's true that when you have more choice and control, you can make a difficult challenge a little easier - but player flexibility does not come at the expense of hard mode's hardness.

I also think that the argument about hard mode being a "luxury" is ridiculous. Arbitrary denial is not instructive or useful; furthermore I do not agree that everything that is not "necessary" is a "luxury." It should be obvious that these are extremes - and I would say that changes that increase flexibility and efficiency would sit right in the middle ground between the two.

bungusmaximus

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2006

Guild Of Handicrafted Products [MaSS]

W/Mo

25 Apr 2007 at 12:25 - 60

People are quite pessimistic when it comes to PUGing, sheesh. My experience with people trying hard mode is that they more or less know what they're doing. If not, a couple of smart questions will fin out the idiots before the mission even starts. Moron doesn't listen to civilized criticism=kick, moron not talking back at all=kick, grievers=kick, morons flashing bambis and bossing people around=kick. That idiot filter gets me through hard mode in a breeze, funny enough it was rarely needed. Whether people want 7 heroes or not, PUG horror stories are pretty exaggetrated imo.

SotiCoto

Banned

Join Date: Jan 2007

Drazach Thicket

Temple of Zhen Xianren [Sifu]

25 Apr 2007 at 12:28 - 61

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

SotiCoto, I think you took what I said way out of context. My point was that you play the game to have fun, therefore nothing in it is necessary. Yes, it is necessary to beat all missions in order to beat the game, but it's not necessary to beat the game. If you say hard mode is not necessary, I can use that same argument - "It's necessary in order to acquire Guardian and Vanquisher titles". The same applies. If the titles are unnecessary, then so is beating the game - all arbitrary, all in context.

And I counter that you live to have fun, and nothing in your life is "necessary"... and yet you still harbor notions of importance. You still set yourself goals and desires that you take seriously.... be those in Guild Wars or otherwise.
So who are you to start dismissing certain aspects of the game as unnecessary when it is an effectively redundant term that apples to everything in existence? It is as though you are implying that it is intrinsically of lesser value... and a direct insult upon any who might put life-value on it. If one's goal (yes, in life) is to attain as high a rank on the KoaBD title track as possible... then getting the Guardian and Vanquisher titles DOES become necessary... or else one's purpose is lost...

It isn't right to make light of such things since everyone has their own personal goals in life and categorises different things as important.

Categorising anything as "only a game" / "just a game" or equivalent is wholly inconsiderate of a potential life-choice.
How would you react if your mother died and I then referred to her as "only a sack of meat"?

scottyboysn

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Apr 2006

USA

Kingdom Of Deities [KOD]

R/

25 Apr 2007 at 12:44 - 62

Lets not bring our mothers into this=P

The only thing that would be affected is henchmen, not PUGs. It's just those 4 additional slots that are henchmen that will be replaced. Even then, casual players without pimped-out heroes will still use them. Not everyone has the greens and unlocked skills to slap on them.

arcanemacabre

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Feb 2006

North Kryta Province

Angel Sharks [As]

25 Apr 2007 at 12:52 - 63

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

And I counter that you live to have fun, and nothing in your life is "necessary"... and yet you still harbor notions of importance. You still set yourself goals and desires that you take seriously.... be those in Guild Wars or otherwise.
So who are you to start dismissing certain aspects of the game as unnecessary when it is an effectively redundant term that apples to everything in existence? It is as though you are implying that it is intrinsically of lesser value... and a direct insult upon any who might put life-value on it. If one's goal (yes, in life) is to attain as high a rank on the KoaBD title track as possible... then getting the Guardian and Vanquisher titles DOES become necessary... or else one's purpose is lost...

It isn't right to make light of such things since everyone has their own personal goals in life and categorises different things as important.

Categorising anything as "only a game" / "just a game" or equivalent is wholly inconsiderate of a potential life-choice.
How would you react if your mother died and I then referred to her as "only a sack of meat"?

OK, I think you've missed my point again, as it seems like you're agreeing with me. My point was countering what freekoutfish said when he commented that "Normal mode is a neccessity to complete. Hard mode is just something else to do once you complete normal mode." My point was that if hard mode isn't necessary, than neither is normal mode. My point is that nothing in the game has priority over anything else, because it's all of similar importance depending on the overall goal. Get it?

Geesh man, it's only a forum for a game :P

ChaoticCoyote

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2006

Florida, USA

Imperial Order of the Iguana [IGGY]

R/

25 Apr 2007 at 13:10 - 64

I've been posting about this over at GWO... here are my bullet points:

1) The many (many) people who already play with henchmen are the audience for allowing additional heroes; they can't/aren't going to play with people anyway, so allowing additional heroes has no affect on the number of PuGs.

2) Some of us (including me) *like* PuGs, but can't find them for many activities. Can anyone seriously tell me I can find a guild/PuGs to help me kill over 25,000 monsters in 121 explorable areas for the Vanquisher titles? I PuGged my way to three Protector titles, and I'm working my way through Guardian now with PuGs -- but humans simply aren't an option for some activities like skill capping, exploring, and vanquishing.

3) Why give us 15 heroes (and 10 more with GW:EN), yet limit us to only 3? Seems like a waste of developer resources to create something we can't use.

4) Henchman selection in Elona and Tyria is just plain awful. Cantha spoiled me rotten with a great selection of interesting and useful henchmen; Tyria and Elona are just abysmal in terms of henchmen. Giving us more heroes would allow for greater flexibility and enjoyment in two chapters.

5) The current hero AI is demonstrably broken; there a good long thread on this over at GWO. No kiting, bad skill usage, inactivity, tanking monks on passive... the list of bugs goes on an on.

scottyboysn

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Apr 2006

USA

Kingdom Of Deities [KOD]

R/

25 Apr 2007 at 13:39 - 65

It'd be neat to hear from A-Net if this is actually possible. Remember the April fools joke when everyone went "ZOMG HAIRDRESSER IS TOTALLY POSSIBLE!!!", well turns out it's very complicated code and not gonna happen. Who knows, mabye it's just not worth the time for them to even do it? All I'm saying is I'd like to push for something if I knew it could happen

Numa Pompilius

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: May 2005

At an Insit.. Intis... a house.

Live Forever Or Die Trying [GLHF]

W/Me

25 Apr 2007 at 13:55 - 66

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottyboysn

It'd be neat to hear from A-Net if this is actually possible. Remember the April fools joke when everyone went "ZOMG HAIRDRESSER IS TOTALLY POSSIBLE!!!", well turns out it's very complicated code

I don't believe that for a second - your look is simply a collection of variables indicating that your avatar has hair 3, face 2 etc, and changing those variables can obviously be done.
Also, ANet has already *by mistake* changed the face and hair of avatars, so it's obviously possible to do it on purpose.

As for more heroes, I'd say it's a safe bet you can't have 7 heroes is because ANet wants people to form PUGs, not play solo.
It might be something they add in the next expansion, though, as a selling point.

icymanipulator

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2007

25 Apr 2007 at 14:07 - 67

I hate PuG's...I'll go ahead and say it I hate 90% of the playerbase as well. In game the overwhelming majority of people are whiny selfish leetsauce ragequitters. I for one am all for a full Hero team where I can choose their equipment and skill bars, even micromanage.

I very highly doubt its anet's intention to ram PuG's down the communities throats. Considering how much arguing just goes on in these forums (let alone a mission) its a miracle anything gets beaten.

Raaaaa

Academy Page

Join Date: Feb 2007

AP

D/

25 Apr 2007 at 14:08 - 68

I'd love to be able to use all 7 heros. My main title hunter char is a dervish thus finding pugs aint easy lol. I've found with hard mode you generally need a wind range of classes and skills to get by. I find trying to fit a SS, MM, Prot monk, healing monk, support paragon, interupting ranger, norgu the fat into 3 slots a bit impossible.
I can understand why its likely to never happen, programming 4 more flags would probably interfere with current game systems and there's also the fact that 7 hero panels open will take up most the screen.

Then of course once you get that, you're going to want better AI heh

SotiCoto

Banned

Join Date: Jan 2007

Drazach Thicket

Temple of Zhen Xianren [Sifu]

25 Apr 2007 at 14:16 - 69

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

OK, I think you've missed my point again, as it seems like you're agreeing with me. My point was countering what freekoutfish said when he commented that "Normal mode is a neccessity to complete. Hard mode is just something else to do once you complete normal mode." My point was that if hard mode isn't necessary, than neither is normal mode. My point is that nothing in the game has priority over anything else, because it's all of similar importance depending on the overall goal. Get it?

Geesh man, it's only a forum for a game :P

I hope that last comment was some sort of joke or sarcasm... and will treat it as such though I can't be totally sure.

I suppose put like that I might be agreeing with you against him in some respects.... There is indeed no special difference in importance between Hard Mode and Normal Mode ..... BUT... I don't agree with the way you tried to express that... as I have already noted to you.
And I also wish to note that if he considers Normal Mode essential and Hard Mode not so.... then he is not wrong to believe such. That is simply his consideration of the situation.

Swampgirl Inez

"I love reading trash!"

Join Date: May 2005

Home Again

25 Apr 2007 at 14:28 - 70

There is already a discussion on more heroes in Hard Mode here. Since merge causes the forums to do not nice things, I'll have to close. Please continue your discussion there.