What is "Too Easy" anyway?

I'm not a fan of Hard Mode. I complained about it when the idea first popped up and said it wouldn't be a good idea.... and back then I thought it meant just raising monster levels and giving them more complex skill-bars (not realising it would also mean giving them all boss-cheats and applying titles for killing everything in the game, including the things I could never even touch on Normal). Now they've gone and made it... I'm all the more against the notion.

But what really bugs me is this:
Why complain about things being too easy?
Why all this insistance on "challenge"?

It is fact that if something is "too easy" [a notion I can't really comprehend], that effort can be made to make it more difficult for one's self... without changing the game mechanics. If anything this encourages creativity and personalises the game somewhat... (rather like the time I played through Half-Life without using guns, relying soley on explosives and the crowbar). This way one can get what they want out of the game without having to change it for anyone else.
But if something is too difficult... it is effectively impossible to make it any easier in an online game (as 'cheats' aren't permitted). Those who find part of the game difficult to the point of being unsurpassable are thereby denied any further part of the game and have only a truncated experience.

Often enough I feel that the people who demanded Hard Mode weren't thinking of anyone but themselves. They seem elated that it has been added... and snap at anyone complaining with the comment that it is optional... but not everyone has the capability to enjoy all of the game at such an obscene difficulty level, even if they might WANT to partake of it all. The challenge-freaks already had the Domain of Anguish, Urgoz' Warren and The Deep... areas with their own special prizes denied to those with lesser computers, lesser reflexes and lesser social connections... and now over half the entire game caters to them alone. The rest of us do not have the option to experience the whole of the game at a level we're comfortable with....

We'll never be able to get out there and find Zodiac weapons for ourselves. We'll never be able to get our own Fissure of Woe armour through work and determination.
We'll never achieve those various titles... and will always be perceived as lessers for that incapability.
Normal Mode has been reduced to the "play pen" of Guild Wars by those whose entire gaming experience consists of watching numbers and health-bars.. the game-mechanic rather than the game-asthetic.





[The curious thing is that I wouldn't have this problem half so much if the game-engine worked differently. I don't mind playing Phantasy Star Online on Ultimate difficulty at all since you have to actually concentrate on the action itself and less on the numbers... though admittedly I stay away from the harder areas because I spend more time hiding in doorways than actually in there fighting.]

Nice rant.

/disagree

GW PvE was FAR to easy. Whilst I probably wont make much use of it, hard mode is a good addition.

Have you considered getting better and playing Hard Mode?

Then why didn't you set yourself challenges to make it not quite so easy? Do you need to be spoon-fed EVERYTHING?
I'm not asking you to agree or disagree; I'm just requesting that people consider what I'm saying.


Yeah... and I've also considered growing wings and flying.
Just because I might want to do something doesn't mean it is within my capability. And besides... even then I'd be reduced to constant concentration on the statistics and the troubles of staying alive... losing all appreciation for what I was actually trying to achieve. It would simply be an aggravating grind.

/rant.

It is too easy when some players can complete it without a skillbar.

I can understand where you're coming from SotiCoto, I too am one of those with a 'lesser computer' and it pisses me off greatly at times to be rubber-banded back into a group of enemies, or suffer chronic lag. Because of this, I doubt that I'd be wanted in any PvP groups, will struggle greatly in FoW and DoA...but I don't care.

Hard Mode gives me the opportunity to obtain more titles, such as the Sunspear and Lightbringer ones. And the Vanquishing/Exploring titles can go hand in hand too...and whereas I realise that this isn't quite the argument you were making - these are 'special prizes' for me because I'll know the efforts that I have put in, even if someone else doesn't.


In the time up until GW2 - I aim to try everything out; to complete all of the campaigns, to give PvP a bash, venture into FoW and DoA etc. And whereas I'm pretty sure that I'll fail from time to time because of what I have to work with - at least I'll be happy in the knowledge that I've given it a shot.

What are you trying to say here? The game in normal mode is already too hard for you?

I fail to see how adding the hard mode would hurt you, or anyone, in any way.

I didnt read all that, but to answer your header "what is too easy"...

..to easy is when you can walk out of an outpost with an 8 man AI team, walk into a group of creatures and do absolutely nothing at all.

You dont call targets, or use any skills or spells. You let your AI deal with the creatures without any help from you. And wipe them out without you interfering.

That is too easy.

You know a game, section, quest or mission is too easy when you dont even need to do anything to complete it. If thats what YOU want in GWs, then I dont get you!

Do you not want a game with challenge?
Do you not want a game that pushes you to the edge, and you feel vigtorious for getting past it?

I dont think a game should be insainly hard either, but it should still be hard enough to make you think about stuff. It should still be able to push you close to death, but give you enough breathing space to recover and kick ass.

SotoCoti, you really need to chill. The last 3 posts Ive read from you, have been nothing more then complaining about how hard the game is. Why are you playing Guild Wars if all you've done for the last 4 days is complain about it?

This game on normal-mode is NOT HARD, NOT IMPOSSIBLE. Its relatively easy. Which ever parts your doing, that you find stupidly difficult must be that small 5% which Anet cocked up.

95% of this game in normal-mode is a walk over. And dont make the comment you love saying of "your all experienced MMO players and Im not", or something along those lines.

We all started somewhere, and we seem to have survived.

As for Hard Mode, that optional. Dont play it if you dont want to.



And I love how you always seem to leave out the fact that your main character is an Assassin!!!! A very hard profession to play, and one which cant take alot of damage. This is why you have such issues with the game.

Im not saying you shouldnt be a Sin, but I expect had you chosen ele, or warrior as your main character you would be finding it alot easier.

If your honestly finding the normal-mode play really, really frustratingly tough. Then maybe its time to admit that Sin isnt the best profession for you? Maybe try something else?

Well, what are the parts of the game that vary between players?

Skill usage.
Positioning.
Target selection.

You do all of these already, but perhaps not at maximum efficiency. Simply practice doing each of them better, and it's not something you have to focus on - you'd still be doing the same things, only better. You can have plenty of fun messing around because the mere battlefield structure of your team is so much more solid that your risk of losing is minimized.

You answered the first question in your Half-Life story I think. Once you finished the game with the crowbar/explosives, whats next to come up with? People have been trying to finish off shiro with the least amount of people in the quickest possible time, doing missions nekkid, whatever Alot of people already did that sort of things. If you had all that, but still love the game world etc. (and not into pvp) I can understand people wanting a more of a challenge.

Why all this insistance? Well, that differs from every type of player. A basic rundown is the "Conquerer" (involves beating the game/winning), "Managers" (motivated by a desire for strategic gameplay), "Wanderer" (in search of a fun experience), "Participant" (not much info, but still a big group, most of the times introduced by a friend, enjoying social parts). Each of those have a "hardcore" or "casual" split which you might know (words kinda say it already). Now my view is that most people who post here, are the hardcore kind, and a lot are the Conquerer/Manager type. Which is the reason I believe why you read about alot of these comments. Every type of player has its own reasons or thrives to play.. and one of them is challenge

At least, thats my view ^^

EDIT: And you might snap for saying it is optional. But it simply is. People who enjoy the game on casual way, can still do so. People who want more, can have the same. I believe you can enjoy the game within the capabilities for sure..

Sorry, but I don't understand your rant at all. You say A-net should never have created hard mode because it's too hard for you and the players should have just created their own versions of hard mode.

Huh? Why are you so upset? I'll agree with you. Hard mode isn't for everyone. If your abilities aren't up to the challenge, then stick with normal mode. Adding a hard mode into the game hasn't hurt you. If you don't like it, just stay out of it.

YES FFS! it has many areas that are too hard for me.HM hurts ME cause i dont want to see it in the game ffs.i too was against it when i heard the idea, it sucks.And it only makes my hate for all you hardmodders even stronger.

On the contrary... that is what I'd call perfection. When I have set up my heroes in such a way as they can wipe out mobs on their own... I get a sense of almost parental pride...
It certainly isn't too easy.
Heck... I wouldn't even call it too easy when one Hero alone can wipe out an entire mob before the rest get there. In such places I find other means of entertainment... such as seeing just how many mobs I can gather together without accidentally killing them. I can find entertainment in any level of so-called "ease".

No.
No I don't.
LIFE pushes me to the edge... and it frustrates me... and I feel only an exhausted relief when I overcome such a challenge, as I know another one is right around the corner. Why the hell would I want to emulate that in-game where it could only be crudely expressed in numbers anyway?
There is no pride in that.... no beauty.... Just raw statistical grind.

It isn't ass-kicking if I'm nearly whupped myself... It is close-call. It is the sort of thing that makes me edgy and stressed out, as any situation that weakens me enough that I could not take it on immediately a second time is a danger that needs to be avoided.

Its Coto.... Why do people ALWAYS seem to get my name wrong?
And I play Guild Wars because it is a beautiful game in many respects. I play Guild Wars for situations like that in Mineral Springs... where I fought through hoardes of Avicara and Ice Imps just to get to the back of the Ice Cave and take a screenshot of my character standing above the lake of ice. I had the time to think of what... in actual game-world terms... my character had done. I didn't give a toss about the skills or numbers or game-mechanic or any of that stuff. I cared about the fact that I had found somewhere beautiful.... and wanted to stay there a bit to appreciate it.

Rotscale is a c0ck-up?
The Elite Missions are a c0ck-up?

Speaking of the former.... do you know why I want to kill Rotscale?
It isn't for his bow.... nor even the "prestige" of beating him. I just want to clear out his island in the middle of Majesty's Rest so I can take screenshots. I like the way the area looks. Does that seem bizarre to you?

Experience has little if anything to do with it. I'm uncertain of the cause of the lag I get regularly... I however know my reflexes aren't all that great... and that my choice to play an Assassin as my main char wasn't all that great in terms of pure survival chances.

If I want to up the KoaBD title track as far as possible... and I do..... then it isn't optional at all. Now everyone in Hard Mode has a significant advantage over me that they didn't have before... and I seriously resent it.
Over half the game is now denied to me.... and optional or not, I bought the game to experience the whole of it.... not just 2/5ths of it...

Although I am enjoying hard mode and am pleased it is here I think I understand what the OP is saying. Hard Mode is breeding a "higher level of GW-beings" who may look down upon those tho prefer to play in Normal Mode or the "Play Pen". Personally I'd prefer to play in Normal Mode, monsters are less annoying, they die quicker, and...I just like it more. I am enjoying vanquishing areas in Hard Mode, however, but feel 'drained' after a few areas, Raisu Palace in particular. If I'm right in my interpretation I too am concerned that Normal Mode will become "Noob Mode" and will be frowned upon by the "Guild Wars Elite". As for how Hard Mode could hurt people, yes, you can say "Well just don't play it"...but it's more than that...I can easily see a new player in a town spamming "LFG Normal Mode" and getting comments such as "noob", "normal mode is for wimps", etc.. etc.. It may not directly influence someone but Hard Mode fanatics may begin to consider themselved "superior" to all others...

As the OP implies some aspects of Normal Mode is too hard, this is no bad thing. I guess practice does make perfect but sometimes there are things that we will never be able to do no matter how much we try. I, for instance, find it insanely hard to get past the grasping darknesses, solo, with the E/Me solo-smite build, whereas our alliance leader farms the lil' fellas dry with insane success when I fail almost every time. So it's all well and good saying "just practice", but sometimes it's not that simple.

A little something drew my attention a while back... which made me realise that it wasn't just that I was using terrible builds or standing in the wrong place.... nor even picking the wrong targets. I was doing most of that just right.... but the little something went like this:

Horns of the Ox => Falling Spider.

I've never been able to pull it off. I've had both of them flashing in sequence as they're supposed to... but it has never worked. I've seen the enemy get knocked down, but by the time Falling Spider "triggers", they've got back up again..... and yet there was a time when all the PvP assassins were using this.
I've realised that... given whatever is going on with my system.... it is physically impossible for me to use that combination.
Why?
How?

Of course this made me realise that I have a problem that stems further than just one skill combination.
My skills are generally flashing for a few moments before they ever activate... no matter what I do. Rubber-banding is a fairly normal thing for me... though not at the extreme level it has been at recently.

Furthermore.... my ability to concentrate on the entirety of my surroundings isn't the best either. I'm certainly improving my ability to spot a monk in an enemy group from a distance by familiarity with the shape of their mesh.... but in the midst of battle I find it difficult to ascertain where each and every enemy is at every given point in time.... I remain entirely focused on the one I'm attacking... which is sometimes why I get attacked from behind without even realising.

I vote to make Hard Mode harder....

Good suggestion is try customizing the interface if you havent already make the enemy's healthbar/screen usage/radar closer to eachother, so you can overview it easier than at all the far edges of the screen.

(And you havent commented on my reply :<)

There are no words to describe how much fun I used to have in Half-Life with tripwire mines. They were creative heaven... provided one used the Impulse 101 code to have them on instant supply. I've beaten pretty much everything in HL with tripwire mines in various forms... cages, domino-effect... the works...

If you've played a game to death then it is time for a new game.... simply put. Not everything lasts forever. Even Morrowind (a game I still find entertaining after several years) starts to wear thin after a while.
Adding more to the game certainly helps.... but that is just it.... Hard Mode isn't a new experience.... It is an old experience made more unpleasant for new rewards...
And seriously.... There are how many character classes now?
How many skills?
How many possible class combinations?
How many possible builds?
I'm surprised that these people can ever truly run so dry of things to do that they actually feel better doing the same crap but with cheating enemies.... If I found it that easy that it wasn't entertaining me, I'd just switch build... switch my heroes around... try again.
It hasn't happened yet though.

I'm not sure I'd class myself as any of those. I'm a Roleplayer.... I value the game for its qualitative values... not the quantitative ones.... and I invest a lot in doing things the way I want to do them.

Wouldn't be a problem if what I wanted to achieve hadn't been intrinsically tied into it. ¬_¬

So basically....instead of continuing to harass us in the "Thank You Thread" for hard mode....you made your own thread where you rant about how selfish we are for wanting something more out of GW.....I see what you are saying about the whole half life thing because I have done the same but I fail to see what that has to do with GW.....GW is a MMORPG(or CORPG what ever floats your boat) not a FPS in MMOs after you beat everything you look for something harder......not make easy things harder by modifying your armor or what ever else you had in mind(thats somthing I do when I'm completely bored and it is fun but I would honestly rather have hardmode)......anyways thats the end of my little rant

Have you ever had one of those dreams.... like where you're running some sort of marathon with people... some faster, some slower.... but then you come toward what you thought was the end and it is only the half-way mark...... and the rest of the race is over a sea of magma.... and everyone else is wearing heat-proof clothing.
Wouldn't you feel bitter?
Wouldn't it be sickening to know that you couldn't go any further and could only do a half-arsed job because a bunch of selfish bastards insisted on having the bar raised for everyone to their own level?

I wanted to play Guild Wars. I paid the money to play it. Of course I'm annoyed that over half the game has been made effectively unplayable for me.



On another note... you ever have one of those dreams (or realities) where you are just another sheed in a herd... making the same meaningless bleating noises? ¬_¬ ....


Metaphorically speaking.... if you want to spend your entire life climbing higher up the mountain... that is your perogative. I find it far more fun to run down the mountain. But when I'm collecting flags and some dillweed sticks a few of the important ones at the top of that mountain... just for the sake of some climbers who would be going up there anyway, flags or not... that is when I get freakin annoyed.

Then again I don't suppose you'll follow that metaphor.

Well, there's one slight difference in the comparisons you make. That is that GW is a MMO and that HL/Morrowind etc. are not In a persistant world (for the sake of argument lets just say it is) you build up a character and have no specific ending (sorta).

Hmm, cheating enemies? Ever played Dungeons and Dragons? I wouldnt say cheating, I would just say 'making it more interesting'.

And if you are interested in the different types of people, which also leads to different styles of gaming (and designing), a nice read is about the Myer Briggs Type Indicator: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myers-Briggs

Maybe you understand why other people do/like the other things they do/like

Stuff is too easy if you dont have to improve your playstyle or used builds.

I think that playing in the NBA is entirely too hard. I want to play in the NBA so I think the basket should be 5 feet off the ground. If the other players think it's too easy then they should wear blind folds. Also, I'm going for the title of MVP. It's not fair that people who are better then me can be named MVP. Since I am unable to meet the requirements of being an MVP the requirements should be lowered. Everybody should be able to become an MVP regardless of their actual skill in the game.

I'm Aspergian. "Other people" are neurotypicals.
Neurotypicals are typically highly irrational.
Of course I don't understand why other people do / like the things they do / like.... because there is very little reason behind it. It is based on "feelings", which are erratic and unreliable at best.

And I would say the enemies in hard mode cheat.... and oddly enough become LESS; not more interesting.

And for the record.... Guild Wars is a lot more content-limited than Morrowind is....

And the Myer-Briggs indicator is a gross simplification of personality, highly inaccurate and impossible to use in a manner catering for all possible manners of conduct. It will only mislead you.

"Too easy" is any area with those big worms you can ride around in and mow down the opposition. Turn on hard mode, enter your worm, and molest the hell out of the totally chanceless mobs.

Professional basketball players are paid to play the game; they do not pay to play the game... thus they're not going to be a part of it if they're not perceived to be capable of the top.
Furthermore, they knew full well what they were getting into when they signed up. They didn't put their whole life into it just to have the whole system flip upside-down.... and if it did, and it caused them to fall back... I'd imagine they'd be fairly annoyed about it too. Just the notion of the world's top basketball player complaining that it was too easy and asking the NBA to put spiked hoops on all the high-end games to make it "more of a challenge" is something I find strangely comical.


So... got any more woefully poor analogies I can rip to shreds?

I dont know if any of you are 'old' enough to realize this, but once upon a time (takes on storytellers tone) Thunderhead Keep and Abaddons Mouth were considered the hardest missions in the game. (This is about until 4 months after release, yea thats a LONG time ago)

In fact, anything from the desert onward in tyria, You could see monks spamming. "Will help group, 5k/person". And people had no problem paying these monks. So why dont we see that anymore? Its because people learned how to play the game.

What am I getting at in reference to hard mode. It's simple, Hard mode tactics are going to be slightly (not a lot) different than normal mode tactics. People will eventually learn they have to take a damage mitigation character or two instead of a lot of Fire eles and an MM. (enter the mesmer, water ele, air ele, trapper, etc). Personally I have had the most success with the water ele.

Basically, in normal mode, mobs die too fast (poor criters) because teams can afford to be sloppy and take a lot of wars, eles, and monks (holy trinity). Usually an MM is thrown into the mix too. In hard mode, perhaps you should rethink your 'build' of henchmen to be something other than dmg-defense type chars, if your having too much trouble.

Did first mission in realm of torment last night, expecting to get wiped. (I was the water ele, water ftw) A lot of people dont realize what a well placed blurred vision will do. And Deep freeze is for the win. I felt useless when my hero fire eles were doing most of the damage, but hey stuff died, we didnt die as much. (Dumb wammo running to terrorwebs without prot spirit cast on him yet). I was reminded how missions went back in the early days of guild wars. And I'll bet in a month or so, hard mode will be too easy, and you will see thousands of players with KoaBD titles or guardian/vanquisher titles.

/start rant
A-net why are you cheapening the KoaBD title track with these easy to obtain titles.
/end rant

-edit-
Forgot to mention I saw someone mention they have terrible problems with lag and cant do anything cause they rubberband into a mob or something.

Perhaps you should know I play on dial up (26k upload speed ftw) with an average ping of 900, This is all common for me, but easy to compensate for. And you never rubber band into a place you havent been yet, you should be more careful about your posisitioning.

*sigh* Cable in 2 days ftw

It isn't going to be even possible for me until the Hero / Henchie AI is seriously improved... and even then I'm resentful of the special effects that the enemies get, as if their being higher level wasn't bad enough. It wouldn't be so bad if I had that Chimera thingie from the Abaddon's Mouth mission wherever I went in HM...

I mean I'm getting what you're saying. I might be able to tackle Hard Mode some day, and I will have given up complaining by then (might have given up GW full stop after that length of time though)... But even then I expect it will require cookie-cutter builds to survive to the degree that I ideally find entertaining. There will be no fun in it... and I just want to do it for the titles... and by the end of it I'll have become so paranoid and stressed out by it that Normal Mode will be forever ruined for me too...

I guess Hard Mode is just going to sap all the fun out of the game for people like me who don't find challenges fun at all.

Perhaps I should be more blunt, and say take a character that either snares, blinds, is a general pain in the rear end, or all three. And then you will discover that hard mode really isnt hard, its just a lot of red dots on the minimap waiting to die.

In any case, good luck with that.

In short.... If I can't do it with my Assassin (using a build that I can utilise comfortably) and a team of heroes / henchies.... then I can't do it, and I will be bitter about it....

I do understand that actually.....basically you are saying you want a fixed bar...In stead of having someone raise the bar you want to be able to spend your sweet time getting to the top or above that bar while the rest of us are bored out of our minds....I personally like the bar to be raised and as you said that is my prerogative(you should use firefox it comes with built in spell check).....so feel free to stay in normal mode and take your sweet time but why ask others to suffer because you are a bit slower than some of us....I can understand that you want to be equal with everyone so be equal and use your equal rights to chose to do Normal mode rather than Hard Mode

SotiCoto, for what it is worth, I want to put in a supportive word. I agree with your sentiment completely, if not necessarily every word you say.

These people telling you to "shut up and enjoy it" or "work harder" are really telling you to be a sheep and fall in line. Don't do that, and be like they are.

Unfortunately, I'd like to say that Hard mode is probably beneficial to the game as a whole, providing those with greater capacity that they claim as skill (to google cookie cutter builds IMHO) to continue to play as they see fit. The immediate down side is the mixing of the two crowds, with the sorting out of "Oh, you are a normal group, kthxbye" type of snobbery. Oh well, this is a competitive game, what do you expect? Group hugs? You build a tiger trap, you get a tiger, not a bunny.

I can tell you from personal experience that in my earlier game-life, I was all about playing prophecies and was struggling on some missions. I was playing with skill bars and trying to work out good builds pre-heroes of course. Maybe like you are now, maybe not. But something wonderful happened, a friend pointed out the guild wars wiki, and really my life has changed. Better in some ways, worse in others.

It was Thunderhead Keep. The wiki said "stay with the king at the top of the stairs, do not guard the doors". That mission went from night to day. I stay with the king, and I crush the mission. It was easy.

So all I can recommend is, read the wiki. For example, get Shields Up! for the Varesh fight, it makes it a lot easier.

Admittedly, going with the cookie cutter build removes all the fun for me concerning experimentation, since I can spend 5 or 6 hours experimenting and losing and trying again, or 3 minutes reading the wiki and win. I have a job and wife, so it is wiki. That really knocks a lot of the fun out.

Maybe you might want to refine your focus to why 75% of the skills are just plain not usable. That really forces cookie cutter builds because they are what works. Why not beef up the skills that are not as good as others? Wouldn't that expand the possibilities of builds and break out of the cookie cutter mold? Wouldn't that also make the game easier since the majority of skills would now be 10% more effective? I dont know about you, but I do not see a downside to that.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

There's no reason to get on a forum and bash people just because they can actually play Guild Wars and you can't, when it's due to an incredibly bad lag problem. Closed.