I've been playing a Paragon/X character and have really liked its style and game play. Basically she's a ranged attacker that sets things on fire and then lowers the damage taken by her teammates from enemies on fire. I take a warrior, a monk and a pyro with me and we kick some butt.
Why do paragons rank so low on surveys? Why are there so few builds out there? I've played through the game with my other characters and think that this one is just as effective and fun (with the right team) as my others.
Paragons: Why the bad rap?
Tenebros
Anphobia
Personally I've never ventured into the Paragon world because I hate all the armor apart from the FoW armor...and thats like stupidly expensive and hard to get.
If the armor isn't that good, I don't get a drive to play such a character, I like aesthetically pleasing gameplay!
If the armor isn't that good, I don't get a drive to play such a character, I like aesthetically pleasing gameplay!
Zedd Kun
We already have a thread about this, go to PvE forum under Paragon, you'll find it there.
Seraphic Divinity
mediocre damage out-put, mediocre defenses (unless going zergway), mediocre versatility.
All in all they're a poor choice at best... there are more effective classes out their, hence the 'para hate'.
What is a paragons ultimate purpose? To do mediocre damage while defending the team in a mediocre way? People don't generally want that. They generally want people who specialize in an area... like... damage... or... healing...
That's why people don't want the rits who specialize in damage -and- healing... they're good for all 'rit' spikes, but not much more than that.
All in all they're a poor choice at best... there are more effective classes out their, hence the 'para hate'.
What is a paragons ultimate purpose? To do mediocre damage while defending the team in a mediocre way? People don't generally want that. They generally want people who specialize in an area... like... damage... or... healing...
That's why people don't want the rits who specialize in damage -and- healing... they're good for all 'rit' spikes, but not much more than that.
Skuld
Paragons are so damn overpowered its not funny.
Seraphic, you're an idiot.
Seraphic, you're an idiot.
Feathermoore Rep
Paragons are basically the Cheerleaders of Guild Wars. Now seriously, how many people want to be a cheerleader.
And second i hate them because they have a low dmg weapon, yet they can hit harder and faster than a Ranger, which just isn't right. But this isn't a discussion on Rangers.
Also, they really are quite imbalanced. Anet will really need to carefully think about the Paragon skills they add in GWEN, otherwise a team of 8 Paragons maybe unstoppable again.
And second i hate them because they have a low dmg weapon, yet they can hit harder and faster than a Ranger, which just isn't right. But this isn't a discussion on Rangers.
Also, they really are quite imbalanced. Anet will really need to carefully think about the Paragon skills they add in GWEN, otherwise a team of 8 Paragons maybe unstoppable again.
Is2r
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anphobia
Personally I've never ventured into the Paragon world because I hate all the armor apart from the FoW armor...and thats like stupidly expensive and hard to get.
If the armor isn't that good, I don't get a drive to play such a character, I like aesthetically pleasing gameplay! Ya i personally hate the armor to =/
If the armor isn't that good, I don't get a drive to play such a character, I like aesthetically pleasing gameplay! Ya i personally hate the armor to =/
Series
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skuld
Paragons are so damn overpowered its not funny.
Seraphic, you're an idiot. Funniest thing I read all day. I literally rofl'd. If I were you, I wouldn't call others idiots.
Seraphic, you're an idiot. Funniest thing I read all day. I literally rofl'd. If I were you, I wouldn't call others idiots.
Wildi
when anet started balancing skill for 3+ paragons one paragon alone became weak, thats it
the motivation line is almost useless to a single paragon, in pve no team can bring 3+ paragons to keep your team alive and other classes have much more potential for damage with multi-target skills
the motivation line is almost useless to a single paragon, in pve no team can bring 3+ paragons to keep your team alive and other classes have much more potential for damage with multi-target skills
bhavv
Paragons are great if you know how to use them, all classes are.
Nekretaal
Pargon Male armor has nipples and Paragon Female armor doesnt.
Who wants that in their group?? WHO???
Who wants that in their group?? WHO???
Str0b0
I have yet to find a really effective paragon build. The closest I've come is the build I use on Morgahn which Zinger so kindly posted back towards the Nightfall release. It works fantastically, and is similar in concept to yours except we ditch the spear in favor of an axe. The armor is so gay I couldn't play a paragon because in the cut scenes I'd keep expecting my char to have a vicious lisp. Their damage is substandard compared to a dervish or warrior or even a ranger and their utility with shouts and chants is also substandard compared to some warrior shouts and some monk protection buffs. After the nerfs to some of the more useful shouts it's just not worth it to play one or to bring one along in a party.
Ensign
Poor scalability against huge mobs of enemies.
That's really it TBH.
Peace,
-CxE
That's really it TBH.
Peace,
-CxE
Tenebros
Wow, those were some fast responses. I've played warrior and ele classes and certainly appreciate their damage skills. I grew a bit bored with the point and kill of the axe warrior and the maintain energy pyro world. I think the Paragon is an interesting mixture of the two really. While I'm not far enough into this one to determine if she will be godly, I certainly don't think she's worthless. Far from it. I'm learning more every day and can appreciate some subtleties. What's really boring is the attitudes people have against anything subtle. Point and kill gets old quick; I need a little finesse. Plus, I certainly don't put my players in based on the appearance of their armor. Besides, I think she looks pretty cute in her skimpy little outfit. I've got a burning spear or two for anyone who disagrees. 
Str0b0
Finesse is one thing but there is no room for finesse when you have people shooting for masters and other such t itles. The name of the game there is efficiency which translates to DPS. Paragons don't have it and their buffs don't significantly increase it. Point and Kill gets it done in PvE where basically if you have a higher DPS output than the mob you're fighting then you win. I can assure you of one thing. She will not be godly. While the build you use, with Anthem of Flame, burning spear and They're on Fire more than likely, has some utility I can get the same thing from a protection monk and the protection monk will do a better job.
Auron of Neon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Series
Funniest thing I read all day. I literally rofl'd. If I were you, I wouldn't call others idiots.
Paragons have unlimited energy (to spam shit like Mirror, Shatterstorm, Rend/Gaze, Expel Hexes, etc etc), neverending IAS, mid-damage attacks easily boosted to stupid levels through insanely spammable attack skills, and to top it all off, 80 armor; allowing them to ignore the offense of the other team and wade into their backline and kill the monks. A team of 5 gons and 3 monks shouldn't be as nigh-invincible as they are. The most broken part atm is Leadership... if paragons weren't able to Mirror every single aegis that went up, they'd be balanced, but seeing as no real prot works against them, it's gg.
Skuld's right. They aren't anything near underpowered.
In PvE, 95% of their armor sucks and they get boring and ineffective unless you're running a gimmicky build like hammergon; couldn't stand playing paragon very long with nothing to look forward to.
Skuld's right. They aren't anything near underpowered.
In PvE, 95% of their armor sucks and they get boring and ineffective unless you're running a gimmicky build like hammergon; couldn't stand playing paragon very long with nothing to look forward to.
Achilles Antony
I tried a paragon during the nightfall preview event, and I ran one in HA when we tried a paragon spike. That was enough for me. In most cases, your sole purpose is to buff the other characters in your party. If you like playing that role, more power to you.
Skuld
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles Antony
I tried a paragon during the nightfall preview event, and I ran one in HA when we tried a paragon spike. That was enough for me. In most cases, your sole purpose is to buff the other characters in your party. If you like playing that role, more power to you.
A paragon is a warrior with a spear, and buffs on the side.
Series
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auron of Neon
Paragons have unlimited energy (to spam shit like Mirror, Shatterstorm, Rend/Gaze, Expel Hexes, etc etc), neverending IAS, mid-damage attacks easily boosted to stupid levels through insanely spammable attack skills, and to top it all off, 80 armor; allowing them to ignore the offense of the other team and wade into their backline and kill the monks. A team of 5 gons and 3 monks shouldn't be as nigh-invincible as they are. The most broken part atm is Leadership... if paragons weren't able to Mirror every single aegis that went up, they'd be balanced, but seeing as no real prot works against them, it's gg.
Skuld's right. They aren't anything near underpowered. Skuld called them insanely overpowered, not "anything near underpowered". That was what he said and it was by far the funniest thing I have read all day.
Unlimited energy? Please. Is that the new HA slander card? "OMFG THAT PROFESSION HAS UNLIMITED ENERGY IT NEEDS TO BE NERFED!!!" It seems like every profession has "unlimited" energy nowadays. Ha. Neverending IAS? Good! Spear is a crap weapon otherwise. Show me a good spear build that doesn't need an IAS of some sort. Insanely spammable attack skills? Do you have any justification in saying that they have "insanely spammable attack skills" and the other combat professions don't? What exactly makes the paragon attack skills more spammable than, say, a warrior? And you really think 80 armor lets them wade into the backline ignoring damage? Wow, thanks! I never thought of that! ...wait a minute... don't warriors have 80+ armor? Why aren't they completely invincible? Oh right, because you know nothing about the Paragon and are just pulling crap out of your ass.
Skuld and you are both wrong. All that sounds good in theory. Lets see it in practice. I have yet to see a good GvG guild run your "uber gon/monk" build. If it was invincible as you say it is, I bet people wouldn't pass up on it. But... they do. Well, the good players do at least.
Skuld's right. They aren't anything near underpowered. Skuld called them insanely overpowered, not "anything near underpowered". That was what he said and it was by far the funniest thing I have read all day.
Unlimited energy? Please. Is that the new HA slander card? "OMFG THAT PROFESSION HAS UNLIMITED ENERGY IT NEEDS TO BE NERFED!!!" It seems like every profession has "unlimited" energy nowadays. Ha. Neverending IAS? Good! Spear is a crap weapon otherwise. Show me a good spear build that doesn't need an IAS of some sort. Insanely spammable attack skills? Do you have any justification in saying that they have "insanely spammable attack skills" and the other combat professions don't? What exactly makes the paragon attack skills more spammable than, say, a warrior? And you really think 80 armor lets them wade into the backline ignoring damage? Wow, thanks! I never thought of that! ...wait a minute... don't warriors have 80+ armor? Why aren't they completely invincible? Oh right, because you know nothing about the Paragon and are just pulling crap out of your ass.
Skuld and you are both wrong. All that sounds good in theory. Lets see it in practice. I have yet to see a good GvG guild run your "uber gon/monk" build. If it was invincible as you say it is, I bet people wouldn't pass up on it. But... they do. Well, the good players do at least.
SniperF0x
Because a team of 8 paragons in HA means rape, they're so damn good when teamed up, but they may not be that good in PVE as a sole paragon though.
Also, their skills don't really protect from immense damage in PVE, while they can't really kill or dominate foes either, they're a bit of the midway.
Also, their skills don't really protect from immense damage in PVE, while they can't really kill or dominate foes either, they're a bit of the midway.
RoadKill97
Quote:
Originally Posted by Str0b0
Finesse is one thing but there is no room for finesse when you have people shooting for masters and other such t itles. The name of the game there is efficiency which translates to DPS. Paragons don't have it and their buffs don't significantly increase it. Point and Kill gets it done in PvE where basically if you have a higher DPS output than the mob you're fighting then you win. I can assure you of one thing. She will not be godly. While the build you use, with Anthem of Flame, burning spear and They're on Fire more than likely, has some utility I can get the same thing from a protection monk and the protection monk will do a better job.
The prot monk won't add much DPS to the team.
Paragon is a very strong character in a team with three or more physical damage dealers. He can deal damage by his own (spear attacks), by teammates ("GftE!" & Anthem of Flame) and still support the team defensively with stuff like Song of Restoration - all this in one bar! And they have way too much base armor... Imo, paragon armor should be reduced to 60 al.
Paragon is a very strong character in a team with three or more physical damage dealers. He can deal damage by his own (spear attacks), by teammates ("GftE!" & Anthem of Flame) and still support the team defensively with stuff like Song of Restoration - all this in one bar! And they have way too much base armor... Imo, paragon armor should be reduced to 60 al.
traiur
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skuld
A paragon is a warrior with a spear, and buffs on the side.
Actually I would argue that your statment is backwards there. The paragons are buffers with a spear on the side. Just take a look at the number of buff skills compared to spear skills. Heck they even had new mechanics added in. And what were these new mechanics? A new kind of buff.
Different people hate paragons for different reasons. Different classes hate them for different reasons. Rangers dont like them imposing upon their ranged territory (especially since rangers seem to be pushed out of that territory by the Para). Warriors don't like the "pansys" running around using their adrenaline. Elementalists hate that there is now another class that's armor is super effective yet covers nothing on them.
They are ranged warriors....its as simple as that. The emphasis of their role is changed slightly, but the mechanics are basically the same.
Different people hate paragons for different reasons. Different classes hate them for different reasons. Rangers dont like them imposing upon their ranged territory (especially since rangers seem to be pushed out of that territory by the Para). Warriors don't like the "pansys" running around using their adrenaline. Elementalists hate that there is now another class that's armor is super effective yet covers nothing on them.
They are ranged warriors....its as simple as that. The emphasis of their role is changed slightly, but the mechanics are basically the same.
lightblade
Quote:
Originally Posted by Series
Funniest thing I read all day. I literally rofl'd. If I were you, I wouldn't call others idiots.
I'm sorry, but I agree on Paragon being overpowered. While Paragon's damage output isn't all that great (their spear attacks are mostly conditional), they act as a great shield that shields the backline casters. Paragons are extremely effective against pressure, either it's from conditions or hex.
Other than that, I think Paragon is pretty bad at protecting itself, other than that 80 armor.
Other than that, I think Paragon is pretty bad at protecting itself, other than that 80 armor.
Skuld
Quote:
Originally Posted by traiur
Actually I would argue that your statment is backwards there. The paragons are buffers with a spear on the side. Just take a look at the number of buff skills compared to spear skills. Heck they even had new mechanics added in. And what were these new mechanics? A new kind of buff.
Different people hate paragons for different reasons. Different classes hate them for different reasons. Rangers dont like them imposing upon their ranged territory (especially since rangers seem to be pushed out of that territory by the Para). Warriors don't like the "pansys" running around using their adrenaline. Elementalists hate that there is now another class that's armor is super effective yet covers nothing on them.
They are ranged warriors....its as simple as that. The emphasis of their role is changed slightly, but the mechanics are basically the same. But the buffs are mostly trash, they were hit hard in balances. Spears are incredible.
@Series ~ heres some example builds, run them for a bit with 16 spear, 10+2 leadership and 9 command and you'll see the potential and what is meant by unlimited energy
[skill]cruel spear[/skill][skill]spear of lightning[/skill][skill]harrier's toss[/skill][skill]anthem of flame[/skill][skill]"go for the eyes!"[/skill][skill]aggressive refrain[/skill][skill]mirror of disenchantment[/skill][skill]resurrection signet[/skill]
[skill]focused anger[/skill][skill]blazing spear[/skill][skill]spear of lightning[/skill][skill]vicious attack[/skill][skill]"go for the eyes!"[/skill][skill]"stand your ground!"[/skill][skill]aggressive refrain[/skill][skill]resurrection signet[/skill]
Different people hate paragons for different reasons. Different classes hate them for different reasons. Rangers dont like them imposing upon their ranged territory (especially since rangers seem to be pushed out of that territory by the Para). Warriors don't like the "pansys" running around using their adrenaline. Elementalists hate that there is now another class that's armor is super effective yet covers nothing on them.
They are ranged warriors....its as simple as that. The emphasis of their role is changed slightly, but the mechanics are basically the same. But the buffs are mostly trash, they were hit hard in balances. Spears are incredible.
@Series ~ heres some example builds, run them for a bit with 16 spear, 10+2 leadership and 9 command and you'll see the potential and what is meant by unlimited energy
[skill]cruel spear[/skill][skill]spear of lightning[/skill][skill]harrier's toss[/skill][skill]anthem of flame[/skill][skill]"go for the eyes!"[/skill][skill]aggressive refrain[/skill][skill]mirror of disenchantment[/skill][skill]resurrection signet[/skill]
[skill]focused anger[/skill][skill]blazing spear[/skill][skill]spear of lightning[/skill][skill]vicious attack[/skill][skill]"go for the eyes!"[/skill][skill]"stand your ground!"[/skill][skill]aggressive refrain[/skill][skill]resurrection signet[/skill]
Crazyvietguy
Skuld is correct in PvP a team of paragons is VERY powerful. Reason being they can spam heals, defenses, attack buffs and IAS... All while chucking spears and lighting their enemies up with burning.
However in PvE Paragons can hardly hold their own. Now I play a paragon in PvE, I actually enjoy it. I play a P/Rt, more effective than one might think. You just gotta fit your playstyle.
You can also do melee damage with a Paragon, P/W.
However in PvE Paragons can hardly hold their own. Now I play a paragon in PvE, I actually enjoy it. I play a P/Rt, more effective than one might think. You just gotta fit your playstyle.
You can also do melee damage with a Paragon, P/W.
Llint
Quote:
Originally Posted by Series
Skuld called them insanely overpowered, not "anything near underpowered". That was what he said and it was by far the funniest thing I have read all day.
Unlimited energy? Please. Is that the new HA slander card? "OMFG THAT PROFESSION HAS UNLIMITED ENERGY IT NEEDS TO BE NERFED!!!" It seems like every profession has "unlimited" energy nowadays. Ha. Neverending IAS? Good! Spear is a crap weapon otherwise. Show me a good spear build that doesn't need an IAS of some sort. Insanely spammable attack skills? Do you have any justification in saying that they have "insanely spammable attack skills" and the other combat professions don't? What exactly makes the paragon attack skills more spammable than, say, a warrior? And you really think 80 armor lets them wade into the backline ignoring damage? Wow, thanks! I never thought of that! ...wait a minute... don't warriors have 80+ armor? Why aren't they completely invincible? Oh right, because you know nothing about the Paragon and are just pulling crap out of your ass.
Skuld and you are both wrong. All that sounds good in theory. Lets see it in practice. I have yet to see a good GvG guild run your "uber gon/monk" build. If it was invincible as you say it is, I bet people wouldn't pass up on it. But... they do. Well, the good players do at least. [Meow] is riding the ladder with 5 paragons right now. OBS more, and maybe play paragon a little better.
Unlimited energy? Please. Is that the new HA slander card? "OMFG THAT PROFESSION HAS UNLIMITED ENERGY IT NEEDS TO BE NERFED!!!" It seems like every profession has "unlimited" energy nowadays. Ha. Neverending IAS? Good! Spear is a crap weapon otherwise. Show me a good spear build that doesn't need an IAS of some sort. Insanely spammable attack skills? Do you have any justification in saying that they have "insanely spammable attack skills" and the other combat professions don't? What exactly makes the paragon attack skills more spammable than, say, a warrior? And you really think 80 armor lets them wade into the backline ignoring damage? Wow, thanks! I never thought of that! ...wait a minute... don't warriors have 80+ armor? Why aren't they completely invincible? Oh right, because you know nothing about the Paragon and are just pulling crap out of your ass.
Skuld and you are both wrong. All that sounds good in theory. Lets see it in practice. I have yet to see a good GvG guild run your "uber gon/monk" build. If it was invincible as you say it is, I bet people wouldn't pass up on it. But... they do. Well, the good players do at least. [Meow] is riding the ladder with 5 paragons right now. OBS more, and maybe play paragon a little better.
free_fall
I don't want to get into the debate over whether Paras suck or not, all I can say is that I've been enjoying playing mine. I actually like the gleaming white armor, too, tho the nipples are, ahem, maybe a bit much.
As I'm going for 2nd rank of Survivor with him (just over 500k XP at this point), I only play him with H&H, so I'm not sure how much of my experience translates into playing with other players, but I've found:
> it's pretty easy to maintain +3H regen on the entire party, which certainly lightens the load on the healers; of course, it's a PITA to stop every 10 steps/seconds to give another shout to keep it going but I've gotten used to it.
> once I've gotten everyone set up with Mending Refrain, cast Aggressive Rain on myself and gotten my blue bar back to full, it pretty much stays full since the 5E Anthem of Flame returns 6E and I use only 1 5E spear skill which regens on its own between uses, while the Furious spear, aided by AR, keeps the adrenaline flowing for the other skills.
IF I get to 2nd rank, I'll immediately let this guy die - too lonely, for one thing, and too nerve-racking having to play so carefully, can't imagine wanting to do it for another 750k XP lol - and see how well this works in a group of other players.
<build attached> how does one show the skill bar in the message, like the previous post?
As I'm going for 2nd rank of Survivor with him (just over 500k XP at this point), I only play him with H&H, so I'm not sure how much of my experience translates into playing with other players, but I've found:
> it's pretty easy to maintain +3H regen on the entire party, which certainly lightens the load on the healers; of course, it's a PITA to stop every 10 steps/seconds to give another shout to keep it going but I've gotten used to it.
> once I've gotten everyone set up with Mending Refrain, cast Aggressive Rain on myself and gotten my blue bar back to full, it pretty much stays full since the 5E Anthem of Flame returns 6E and I use only 1 5E spear skill which regens on its own between uses, while the Furious spear, aided by AR, keeps the adrenaline flowing for the other skills.
IF I get to 2nd rank, I'll immediately let this guy die - too lonely, for one thing, and too nerve-racking having to play so carefully, can't imagine wanting to do it for another 750k XP lol - and see how well this works in a group of other players.
<build attached> how does one show the skill bar in the message, like the previous post?
clawofcrimson
Wow that is a lot of posts in just a few hours! You guys are too fast for me. 
Paragons are my second favourite class! Wait until I finish my guide and you will see why.
And yes Zedd, you are right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zedd Kun
Paragons are my second favourite class! Wait until I finish my guide and you will see why.
And yes Zedd, you are right.
Quote:
We already have a thread about this, go to PvE forum under Paragon, you'll find it there.
please direct your comments here.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10144977
closed
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10144977
closed