So... what about those bow skill changes?

Just trying to point out flatbows aren't that crap as you think

flatbows are crap, and if you wanna interrupt you should standing at the guy's face anyway, recurve are best for interrupting no need for rtw or fw, gives you a free slot.

Like people said, flatbows can be used as well as any other bow. I usually carry a recurve and a flatbow depending on the build I play, but just because some people prefer to use flatbows and can use them efficiently doesn't mean that people who prefer other bows should act as know-it-all jerks.

Just food for thought

Nvm...

messageistooshort, bah

When used in the wrong way, every bow is crap.

^Flatbows own for ganking NPCs in GvG, AB, FA, etc...

Bow skills are fine how they are. A bow isn't a "brute force" weapon in this game designed to do massive damage. Bows skillfully take down the enemy by means other than massive damage.

@anyone who is actually upset that Anet isn't going to make bow skill extra-game-breaking-leet: Go play wow...

Gaile and the Devs are right, Rangers do not need to be imbalanced by making bow skills deal more damage. All that would accomplish is a complete retooling over time (think nerf whirlpool) of all other ranger builds... If bow skills are upgraded, expertise gets nerfed, then wilderness, then beast mastery... It would be inevitable in order to maintain a balance. Rangers may not be perfect, but there can't be a perfect profession and maintain a balanced game.

hmmmmm....

There are a variety of bows available for a variety of purposes...flatbows included. The bickering over the validity of its use/non-use only serves to illustrate the th lack of imagination of any who suggest they are useless...A preference is understood and appreciated, a pointless condemnation over an opinion wastes valuable ones and zeros.

Damage output + survivability always seems to run a very thin line for me...other than niche builds, it seems rangers are always stuck with having 3 attributes in which to place points no matter the build if the want to 1. manage energy/expertise, 2. survive&cause conditions/wilderness survival and 3. deal damage/marksmanship....seems to me all other classes can make do with a division between 2 attributes with the same end result. Delving into the secondary classes a little deeper is the result of trying to increase damage output while not sacrificing survivability and energy management...hence the toucher.

Using secondary attributes from the elementalist, dervish, paragon and ritualist classes I have attempted to maximize damage through all sorts of odd combinations of damage buffs. Every one seems only to work situationally...Currently, I'm running secondary ritualist using channeling spells/weapon spells to greater effect than bow skills alone...it would be nice to be able to do -98 lightening damage every five seconds with a bow attack, but Spirit Rift at 10 channeling out damages any single bow attack at the same pace for the attribute investment. Used with Prepared Shot for energy return using Read the Wind and a couple other skills from the channeling magic attribute, I outdamage my barrage build and effectively hit mobs in singles or groups (yay splinter weapon)...problem is: I can't play a pure ranger, relying on my bow alone to do this kind of damage...I often resort to playing a beast master (which I'm usually happy to do) just so I can see hits of -100 from time to time...you just can't get that with a bow.

DOT calculations often show sets of skills and conditions through standard damage builds to be fairly effective, but even so...A heavy hit can often be more satisfying than gradually whittling away at an enemy over time...needling shot at a high marksmanship doing -30,-30,-30,-30,-30 over 5 or so seconds or -50,-100 from two hits from your pet or ritualist spells in the same time frame...two hits seems more satisfying.

So, buffs for a bow are NOT a necessity, but some fixes would be helpful...keen arrows as mentioned. I'd be happy with a self heal that didn't take so freaking long to cast....too many times has Troll Ungent been interrupted to my dismay...only other self heals are in another class or Beast mastery....guess which I go with...

vamp touch? ;P But yeah, I'd love to see a Keen Arrow that actually worked as described, and not the weenie fix (reword the skill so that it sucks er I mean so that the description is now as sucky as the skill)

um guys... what bow is better has how much to do with this thread? that's right... nada.

You don't HAVE to everything with a ranger you know, I can survive just fine without wilderness survival, and you don't HAVE to spread conditions as a ranger(and even if you want to, burning arrow=marksmanship, screaming shot/hunter's shot=marksmanship, pin down/crip shot=marksmanship, and even with just 3 points in wilderness you can get AP to last around 8 seconds per hit...)

Recurve bows are the best bows for interupting.
Flatbows are good at killing NPC's in PvP when the NPC's are on a wall and your on the ground.

I exclusively use Flatbows and Recurve Bows...

...and honestly I can't find any good circumstance to use a Longbow that would warrant the painfully slow refire rate. When I'm worried about missing with my Flatbow, I usually switch to my Recurve.

Yeah, my general impression from looking at bow attacks is that they failed at the design level, not at the balance level. Far too many bow attacks are dumb Power Shot variants that you really don't want to make more than marginal.

I mean, just look at the list of boring, +damage effects:
Point Blank Shot
Zojun's Shot
Arcing Shot
Crossfire
Focused Shot
Keen Arrow
Marauder's Shot
Penetrating Attack
Power Shot
Precision Shot
Sundering Attack

Are any of those skills that you really want to become staples on Ranger bars?

On the other hand if you look at the skills that actually do something, you find that most of them are playable somewhere. The only ones that don't see any play have effects that are really bad - Called Shot, Determined Shot, Needling Shot, Splinter Shot - or only make sense on a 'damage Ranger' type character where the problem isn't with the skills themselves, but with the lack of supporting mechanics that makes the Ranger worse than every other physical at raw damage (very weak weapon DPS, and a lack of attack speed and deep wound springing to mind).

The big problem is that there aren't many interesting effects that aren't elite. The only skills that do something desirable that aren't elite are Distracting Shot, Savage Shot, Concussion Shot, Debilitating Shot, Hunter's Shot, Screaming Shot, and Pin Down. What are you supposed to do, balance-wise with those skills?

The only real changes I'd like to see are buffs to Crippling Shot and Pin Down (condition removal is so much better than when those were nerfed, that these skills are no longer good at what they do), and nerfs to Broad Head Arrow and Concussion Shot (reduce the Daze duration). All of the other skills are ok where they are. To make substantive changes to the profession, they need to add new skills, or rework existing skills thoroughly.

Peace,
-CxE

Most of these are too good not to take, but seem to be fine as is wich is probably due to most other bowskills being sub par?

The remarks in parantheses seem contradictory somehow. I could agree on reducing the daze duration because BHA and Conc. Shot cover themselves in terms of recharge/duration (making a silencing bow string gravy)
But if as you say condition removal is better than before, BHA can't be that good so as to warrant a nerf?
Maybe the issue isn't neccesarily the skills but the fact that dazed is just too nice a condition...

When I made up and was playing my Ranger through Proph. I was mostly still reading up on Monks and a little on Warriors.I may have neglected the part of what is the right bow for what purpose.Sure I may have used a flatbow but it did work and get the jop done.I have found out that I do in fact have recurve bow which I probably got in around Droks.I don't buy things for X-mount of gold.I got skills and other things to think about.

When I made up a Ranger that got me into the profession as I tried once before and was stuck at Borliss Pass for sometime.I made up a PvP premade the old Fiana trapper build and when I used that I used a recurve for pindown and savage shot.That is what got me to remake my RP Ranger up.

I'm gonna have to go ahead and dissagree with you on some of these Ensign. Needling Shot, Crossfire, Arcing Shot and in theory were it actually working Keen Arrow are all fine skills and serve a purpose against the right target.
As far as 'staples'? I don't think my entire bar should be filled with staples, is yours? Yea I run at least one interrupt (disrupting) but usually 2, then pretty much everything else is application oriented.
The mere fact that no ranger bar is complete without an interrupt or two certainly doesn't therefore make all non interrupts sub-standard. It all depends on the situation. At least try to be as flexible as the profession we're discussing here...

Perhaps *because* the meta has made conditions spamming less viable you *should* consider other options on your bar?

needling is fun with glass arrows and a vamp bow, and any kind of buffs really

...and when there isn't a monk around to heal you, what do you do without points in Wildreness Survival? I know I don't HAVE to have a self heal if there is a monk with nothing better to do than keep me alive, but in PvE this is not practical nor wise. PvP maybe, but if i were a monk and had to constantly heal the dumbass ranger with no self-heal in PvE, I'd be pissed.

You can make a ranger with any build you like, but my point is EVERY other profession can put all of their points into two attributes and make a good damage dealing build with plenty of self healing...Dervish, Paragon, Monk (duh), Mesmer, Necromancer, Warrior, Ritualist, Assassin, Elementalist...ALL of them can invest in their primary attribute and one other and make a self-sufficient build that does substanial damage AND self heals. Name one build that uses Two and only Two primary attributes of the ranger that survives well under pressure, has few energy management issues AND does substantial bow damage...I predict none (please prove me wrong). You have to head to builds that do not rely on the bow for damage...Trapper, Beastmaster and the like...or rely on secondary professions and have everyone bitch that you're too powerful (i.e. toucher)...A good +30-35 non-elite, non-conditional (i.e. other skills disabled - crap) hit would be nice...-98 lightening damage every 5 seconds using ritualist as secondary (channeling at 10), why nothing half that good in marksmanship at 16? (call me the devil's advocate here my main toon is a ranger and it seems certain changes in the game over time keep making it harder...nerfed my trapper, my runner, my beastie boy etc...a little extra bow damage might make up for it )...just fixing Keen Arrow would probably be a start.

The key thing with all the power shot clones is that they're building block skills. If you bar consists of just a whole bunch of +damage skills, you will suck. However, you can make good use of most of the skills by using them in specific ways, or in combination with other skills.

For example, needling shot sucks if it exists in a vacuum. Seventeen damage, and a chance of instant recharge, yippee. However, when you add in a conjure, preparation, and a vamp bow, and only use needling shot on foes below 50% health, needling shot gets very scary, very quickly.

This is really the case for most of the bow attacks, you need to put together a few synergizing skills on your bar to make them interesting. However the "Staple" skills Ensign mentioned ARE good enough to exist in a vacuum. They're "finished product skills" that have a nice effect all by themselves. They key thing on most ranger bars is balancing out your big combo skills with your staple skills, which is really made interesting by the limited space on your skillbar.

See here's the thing, Ranger ALSO has 2 *highly* damaging attributes besides marksmanship... you may have heard of Beast Mastery (yup, high damage and self heal with just BM and expertise), and Wilderness Survival (yup, high damage and self heal, WS and expertise). Thinking in the box, way to go!

@ Dr Strangelove:
Yeah, thats exactly what I'm saying, just because a skill has +damage and no utility doesn't mean it sucks. If used correctly (this is really the key) ANY halfway decent skillbar can be effective...yup...even if it includes power shot. If you use a high damage skill as a finisher, or a spike skill it's all good in most cases.

"...and when there isn't a monk around to heal you, what do you do without points in Wildreness Survival? I know I don't HAVE to have a self heal if there is a monk with nothing better to do than keep me alive, but in PvE this is not practical nor wise. PvP maybe, but if i were a monk and had to constantly heal the dumbass ranger with no self-heal in PvE, I'd be pissed."

I play SMART and avoid taking the damage in the first place. Ever considered giving that a try? I don't NEED monks to focus on keeping ME alive, I stay alive by avoiding damage in the first place. There are counters to meleers in expertise, counters to casters by using interrupts(and in some cases, by making use of range and terrain)...in other words, play smart, not reckless, and you won't need Trolls.

See, my ranger has more hours logged than all 9 of my other characters COMBINED, nearly 6 mil experience on him, dozens of saved builds, has learned every elite and every ranger non-elite skill, 90+% of all three continents mapped, has beaten all three campaigns(primarily with hench and post-NF with heros), has a veritable armory full of bows and multiple armor sets for different situations, Protector of Cantha(and will get the other protector titles once I get off my ass and decide to do the bonuses I skipped due to my own impatience in moving farther along), he's my primary faction farmer and AB/CM character...if there's one class I know WELL it's ranger. I can run others, but when it comes down to it, I choose ranger over anything else. And you know what? I can do just fine without Troll's. When I'm taking damage, it's either so low as to be non-threatening, or so high that Troll's just CANNOT CUT IT even with high wilderness survival. Even when the team is failing, the monks have died, etc, it's usually ME who is able to survive and rez everybody else.

"Name one build that uses Two and only Two primary attributes of the ranger that survives well under pressure, has few energy management issues AND does substantial bow damage...I predict none (please prove me wrong)."

Barrage builds can survive just fine with no Wilderness Survival, Burning Arrow builds, many needling shot builds...as long as the person playing the ranger doesn't play like an idiot, he'll have no problems.

"and it seems certain changes in the game over time keep making it harder..."

Funny how my ranger is still the character I consider my strongest, and that's without needing Trolls.

Having played a Ranger through some level 20 zones, now, I can say that I leave most of the bow attacks untouched. They're just not attractive - even Pin Down feels limiting because of its recharge. Whereas on a Warrior or Dervish I usually have to narrow down which attack skills to take and whether to sacrifice my Sunspear Rebirth Signet for an IAS or another attack skills, I can't really fill that slot on my Ranger. For PvP, bow attacks are "fine" because the ones that are played are really quite good. Burning Arrow, Savage Shot, dshot, BHA. The rest suffer in silence.

Re-read the post....I already mentioned the Beast build and and trapping...you missed the point. I'm specifically talking about a build that uses bow for damage and one other attribute. You are telling me what I've already said. I'm saying: There are 3 required attributes for a bow weilding ranger vs. 2 for any other class to acheive the same result: damage, energy management and healing.

@DKS: O.K. O.K...yours are bigger than mine! Now put them away before you scare the children! I've been playing ranger as my primary as well...since beta...1.5mil xp on one before I deleted her (during the time when we had to deal with attribute refunds and changing profs wasn't easy)...Have just over 3 mil xp on the newer one: Protector of Tyria, 96.1% cartographer and tons of goodies...I admit you play more than me and have more experience....that said:

I can think of very few high level PvE situations where a self heal won't keep you alive...not a convenience, but a neccessity. Farming IDS without Trolls? Running Snake Dance or going through Sorrows Furnace? Where can you run and hide? How do you avoid aggro in tightly concentrated mobs? Seriously....I'd really like to know a build that can make it anywhere past the Vortex in Nightfall without a self heal...Sure there are builds that can do ok for awhile, but I'd challenge you to make it against the fire imps outside Lion's Arch....situational need. Playing smart won't help you there...massive unavoidable degen all over the maps....Mursaat with no heal in the Fire Islands...I really just don't see how you can invest in only Expertise and Marksmanship and survive.

Running RA or TA maybe you can stay away from your opponents....but I really can't see how you can play, no matter your credentials, with just Marksmanship and Expertise through missions in PvE or areas where mobs can degen you before you hit your third running skill...Not saying you are wrong, just saying I'd like to see the build and the situations in which you make effective use of it. I can see a few places it might work...but Trolls is a powerful self heal used by a bunch of us because we NEED it in most situations....even playing smart.

Changes to the game I'm refering to are mostly in areas where I used to farm...IDS and Chest running outside the palace in Factions (all running expertise/healing build: monk secondary)...I cannot fathom fighting through those mobs without Trolls at the least...lots of degen there: hexes and conditions. Running builds that were once effective, just aren't as much with changes to mobs...chests changes don't help.

I'm saying there is no 2 attribute build for Ranger that does primarily bow damage, self heals and has few energy management issues within just the primary profession.... all other professions with ALL points placed in 2 attributes ONLY accomplish this, where the ranger needs 3. While you may not need the self heal because of you extensive experience and unquestionably skillful play, you have still not addressed the issue of all requirements being met with only 2 attributes, you have simply suggested you don't need one...good for you maybe, but most of us are not demigods with the uncanny ability to avoid all degen without the help of monks.

As for thinking outside the box: I do it all the time...dozens of builds and modified builds. They range from 2-4 attributes used and span every secondary profession. Simply put: I'd like to see a 2 attribute build for ranger that uses a primary weapon, the bow, that meets the above stated criteria...I know it isn't there and is unlikely to happen...more or less making the observation that this necessity of three attributes keeps the ranger from being a primary damage dealer unless relying on secondary professions for buffs.

"I can think of very few high level PvE situations where a self heal won't keep you alive...not a convenience, but a neccessity. Farming IDS without Trolls? Running Snake Dance or going through Sorrows Furnace? Where can you run and hide? How do you avoid aggro in tightly concentrated mobs? Seriously....I'd really like to know a build that can make it anywhere past the Vortex in Nightfall without a self heal...Sure there are builds that can do ok for awhile, but I'd challenge you to make it against the fire imps outside Lion's Arch....situational need. Playing smart won't help you there...massive unavoidable degen all over the maps....Mursaat with no heal in the Fire Islands...I really just don't see how you can invest in only Expertise and Marksmanship and survive. "

Farming and running are a different matter, if you're soloing you will need a self heal of some kind, I don't deny that. And if you're running, you don't need marksmanship to begin with, so it's a different matter entirely. I'm talking about regular PvE play, where you can always have a full team(even if just hench), if you're referring to farming and running setups, I won't dispute your points. As for past the vortex, well, my ranger beat Nightfall without a self heal using a pretty generic barrage/interrupt build(mostly, I did vary it up occasionally). Likewise beat Prophecies with no self heal, Mursaat didn't didn't kill me there. Not sure what you mean about the fire imps outside LA. I guess you mean in Hard Mode? I hope so, cause in normal I can solo 2-3 of them without dying with no self heal, they're like...lvl 12, and deal elemental damage with their normal attacks and spells. I have 100 AL vs elemental, 115 against fire if I slap on my Drakescale suit. Didn't have problems the few times I've been in Sorrow's Furnace either, though I admit I haven't gone in there a ton of times. About aggro, well, I usually avoid aggro by careful pulling with a flatbow, in very few areas are the mobs so large that they're not easily dealt with once pulled, likewise in very few areas is it impossible to pull.

"Running RA or TA maybe you can stay away from your opponents...."

I don't do RA or TA so I cannot speak about the need for a self heal there. I would think you'd need one(esp in RA), but I won't confirm nor deny as they are pretty much outside my field.

"but I really can't see how you can play, no matter your credentials, with just Marksmanship and Expertise through missions in PvE or areas where mobs can degen you before you hit your third running skill...Not saying you are wrong, just saying I'd like to see the build and the situations in which you make effective use of it. I can see a few places it might work...but Trolls is a powerful self heal used by a bunch of us because we NEED it in most situations....even playing smart."

If I have 3 running skills, it's cause I'm using a running build. If I'm using a running build, I don't need marksmanship(I don't even equip a bow, I bring a 5e/30hp weapon, and a +45/-2 shield), and am most likely healing with monk skills or Heal Sig.

"Changes to the game I'm refering to are mostly in areas where I used to farm...IDS and Chest running outside the palace in Factions (all running expertise/healing build: monk secondary)..."

Yes, for running and farming I'd have a self heal of some sort.

"I cannot fathom fighting through those mobs without Trolls at the least...lots of degen there: hexes and conditions. Running builds that were once effective, just aren't as much with changes to mobs...chests changes don't help."

Fighting through the mobs can be done without a self heal. I've mapped all(or almost all) of Mineral Springs(including the ice imp cave) by fighting/capping with no self heal, likewise have beaten Factions twice with no self heal. Oh, I DO bring a self-condition removal generally though, so conditions are less of a factor.

"I'm saying there is no 2 attribute build for Ranger that does primarily bow damage, self heals and has few energy management issues within just the primary profession.... all other professions with ALL points placed in 2 attributes ONLY accomplish this"

You won't find many 2 attibute builds for a mesmer that accomplishes all that either. And what about assassins? They need dagger mastery to do damage with a dagger(and really, crit strikes is needed here as well), they use crit strikes(or Assassin's Promise, in deadly arts) for emanagement, and for a self heal, they have to spec into shadow arts. Okay, the ranger will have to spec into 3 lines to have all those things...but they're not the only one, and it's hardly a big deal, either.

Crossfire was designed for bow rangers with pets, it's nearly spammable, cheap and unblockable bow attack. IMO i find it nice, the rest of bow skills that you mentioned are trash.

Example build:

Crossfire ranger

Ranger/Warrior
Level: 20

Expertise: 10 (9+1)
Beast Mastery: 10 (9+1)
Marksmanship: 14 (12+2)

[skill]Read the Wind[/skill] [skill]Distracting Shot[/skill] [skill]Crossfire[/skill] [skill]Maiming Strike[/skill] [skill]Poisonous Bite[/skill] [skill]Heal as One[/skill] [skill]Charm Animal[/skill] [skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]

I used to bring troll along when I was getting my guardian title in Cantha, but half way through I find that it was a waste of slot since tahlkora or dunkoro does a better job. I have since droped any form of healing and brought only whirling defence to buy me time. My theory is, rangers are usually the last ones targeted if you are forced to use your self heal then most of your party's probably dead anyway, in that case running and comming back to resurect would be a more clever option.

I had no problem with getting guardian of elona this way, and am 22/25 through tyria.

that being said I don't mind seeing rangers getting some buff maybe up the dmg of the bows a bit or dunno

Actually TwinRaven I read the post, and what's more I understood what you were asking... I know, reading comprehension ftw. My point was, you can make all the silly confining build parameters you want and still Rangers will be flexible and have a lot of options, because I'll continue to ignore the externally confining limitations you or anyone else want to put onto rangers. Bow skills are fine, It's not how big your bow is, it's how you use it. Wilderness Survival is fine, don't like troll ungent? too bad, it's what we get. Spec out to another profession for another heal then. There's a ton of great skills in WS that most folks don't even read let alone use.
Beast mastery is *the* underdog skill line of rangers plain and simple. If *any* attribute line needs a buff it's there not marksmanship. Yeah, there are a lot of bow skills that aren't used, but the same can be said of smite prayers and air magic though. Given a good team build many of those skills become viable in the proper environment. Perhaps the every day lowest common denominator skills like barrage and burning arrow are played because they are more generally effective yes, but there may also be a situation where a melandru's resilience/draw conditions ranger can save a mission.

All I want for xmas is more folks coming up with creative builds. More damage is easy, make a nuker.

maybe buff the bow auto attack damage or rate of fire ?

Silly? SILLY? How dare you, sir!!! Lol...What can I say. Provocation of ideas is my vocatioan and avocation (artist/teacher/art teacher/computer teacher/pain in my boss's ass)...I am perfectly content with my ranger as is. But I find that sometimes within the flexibility there are restrictions to the class...My job is the same way in that I end up with certain responsibilities based on characteristics solely associated with what I do...therefore I end up mediating state tests online, maintaining ALL the computers in the building, I'm yearbook supervisor, I run CIS (vocational stuff) and get to build/rebuild computer labs every year (going open source this next year....woohoo). All this because I'm flexible. I don't get paid more and I work longer hours than other teachers, but I dig what I do.

See...ranger suits me fine in much the same way...I get to do a whole lot of things other classes don't quit have the skills to achieve and I can reach over into the areas of other classes a bit...yet within all this flexibility, I find I often have to work a bit harder at certain things and get the same payout. I get to scout, pull, trap, interrupt and the like but it almost always means a support role of some kind...not usually a primary damage dealer...that is the rub.

IRL I am seen as a support player (electives teacher) and therefore my time and resources are often less valued. I am not a core teacher, therefore my concerns are less heard in meetings. As a ranger, I get the same vibe...last attacked because I'm in the background. Last man standing a lot...and with the wrong secondary, my poor rez siggy is all burned up (ritualist secondary: Flesh of My Flesh ftw)...I just think a little imagination thrown at the ranger can make the bow a more effective weapon for primary damage. And if no bow buffs are coming our way (I'm sure there are not) then provoking people into tossing out ideas beyond the confines of the ranger box and getting THAT conversation started is in my/our best interest (ah, the devil has no advocates like the ones who know him best ).

Why wait for Christmas? Let's get the builds flowing now...heh heh. Bow damage will never be huge...bows are there for added pressure and a fair DOT. If you really want to mess with someone, kill them with your pet. Spike them with a secondary skill or spell. Exploit (in a good and legal way) the attributes of a secondary profession...you MUST get creative to inflict heavy damage or you will always play the jack-of-all-trades, master of none role...As soon as i get the Channeling staff I'm after, I'll be dropping the bow for a while...why? 'Cause I'm trying something different...again.

Keep on track guys

I'd like to see a lot of the +dmg skills transformed into something worthwhile, maybe some sort of AoE damage bow attack (splinter shot is baaed)

What's noteworthy is *why* those other skills are sub par - it's because most of them don't offer any interesting effect at all, or that the effect is a contradictory kludge of conditionals.

Compare to some sub-par Warrior skills for instance. If you look at sword, you have some weak skills like Hamstring or Savage Slash that are rarely run, because despite having interesting effects they simply don't give you enough punch to justify the skill slot or cost.

Contrast that with effects like Steelfang Slash, where you have to jump through a pretty significant hoop to get an effect that's pretty minor. Those skills are virtually impossible to make competitive without further tilting the game towards gimmicky play.


That's really it, daze is too strong of a condition to be putting *long* dazes on people. We are talking about the single strongest mes effect in the game, that needs to be removed immediately, but naturally lasts 20+ seconds.

The big problem with daze is that it's the only condition that inherently counters its own counters. You can get into removal wars over blind, or pull a cripple off yourself with Mend Touch, but if you get dazed there's very little you can do about it. On your own, the only real chance you have is SoD + block stances, and hope to slip a 1.5s Mending Touch through. In a full 8v8 environment, you can usually kludge something together - whether its a Draw Conditions in the midline to deal with that, or multiple Mending Touches that you can run over and clear it with.

But in smaller fights, such as any of the arenas or while split in GvG, daze is game over. You are shut down by the hardest mes effect in the game, it lasts practically forever (16 seconds at the very least, at 10 spec, and that's only if they didn't bother to pull out the bow for the 21 second daze) so you can't even think about waiting it out, and you can't pull it off of yourself because it counters its own counters. It being so easy to apply (Broad Head Arrow: push the Daze button!) just makes it more infuriating.


I agree somewhat with Keen Arrow and Needling Shot - Crossfire and Arcing Shot are worse abilities than Precision Shot that are only noteworthy because they cost 5 instead of 10. Neither give you any new capabilities.

Needling Shot is reasonably well designed, it's just that what it's good at isn't good. The idea of the skill is that on a Ranger with lots of +damage (Kindle/Conjure, for example), it's good for DPSing a target down who is below half health. Problem being, that a target below half health is something that you want to spike before the heals land, not DPS. Also, we're talking about a damage Ranger here, which has all of the pitfalls previously talked about. I don't think there's anything really wrong with Needling Shot, it's just that what it does is so at odds with everything else in the game.

Keen Arrow I'll give you. That thing is a pretty vicious spike skill in conjunction with "Go for the Eyes!", at a rather cheap cost. Build dependent, but attractive despite the damage being a bit wonky.


Yes. Pretty much every character I play, of any profession, is packed full with the best skills. There really isn't any reason not to.


Rangers are tactically flexible. Their bars have a lot of durability and utility on them that you can direct as neccessary. However, Rangers don't have a lot of variety (every Ranger looks the same, with the same core abilities and very similar skillsets), nor a "strong" profession (they're fundamentally finesse characters that enhance your power classes).

Don't mix up the two aspects of flexibility - while the team's Ranger can go pretty much anywhere he wants to execute whatever plan is most needed, his bar is always going to be Savage, Distracting, Apply Poison, Natural Stride, and Mending Touch, with an elite and a bit of flavor. Lots of flexibility, not a lot of variety.


Incorrect. Rangers don't have any high damage attributes.


And perfectly so. That's a casual character with a casual skill that fits in fine with the theme and makes some people happy. It's not a competitive skill, nor a competitive character, but who cares? The skill is good enough to fill its role, even if that role isn't to be played in competitive PvP, and that's what is really important right?

Peace,
-CxE

PvE doesn't really need a self heal OFTEN. I have lots of time invested in my Ranger, and lots of time in 11 otehr characters as well. Of all of my characters, my Ranger is the easiest to stay alive with, even when I take no self heal.

Blocking stances like Whirling and Lightning Reflexes do wonders for melee, other rangers, and wanding casters.
Armor is 100AL for Elemental damage, which is most of what you face when not dealing with War, Derv, Sin, Par, and Rang.

Now, because I find I take little damage during fights, I don't use Wilderness Survival much, unless I am going for a unique build (Choking, poison, ignite). My most common build works well in 90% of the PvE areas, and I am usually the last one standing when the team is dying.

Burning Arrow
Screaming Shot
Savage Shot
Distracting Shot
Pin Down
Lightning Reflexes
Read the Wind
Rebirth

Except for my rez, its all Marksmaship and Expertise. I use 16 Marks, and 14 Expertise - yes, Superior and Major runes. Damage is not among the highest I have seen, but I do quit well. I sometimes am amazed to see my hits register in the 80's for non elite skills.

I don't think Marksmanship needs major changes. A few small ones yes, but nothing drastic. My biggest gripe is Seeking Arrows - the duration at 16 Marks isn't as long as the recharge, so I will have Flashing Blades Assassins, Whirling Defense Rangers, and Shields Up Warriors giving me trouble.

Does it seem, though, through all of this, That the Marksmanship attribute...the attribute that directly determines the effectiveness of the only "ranger" weapon (the bow)... is not as effective at dealing damage? (not that any drastic changes need made) I usually keep it high enough to meet weapon req. and then build around WS for conditions or a secondary attribute before investing in it heavily. DPS is great with Burning Arrows+Apply poison and Hunter's/Screaming shot...but I can take down single opponents more quickly using Enraged Lunge BM build or Toucher than with bow attacks with removable conditions. Direct damage is severely lacking in the bow department. Sure, against squishy targets we might a good critical for -80-ish with full 16 and a sundering bow...but how often? My pet warthog, Stinky, can hit for -100 every five seconds, with a -45 between those at 14 beast mastery (results vary with armor of course)...Seems lop-sided to me that with a greater investment in Marksmanship, I can't come close to the same effective damage. Again: This is an observation...I don't think we need to uber-charge marksmanship. Just fix the little things.

OFF TOPIC SPOOFAGE BEGINS HERE: If you think about it realistically, I guess a wild boar has the potential for greater personal destruction than a well-trained marksman...that's why, throughout history, man has trained wild pigs to attack their enemies...forsaking the bow and arrow for this more deadly means of attack. Even today, there are wild boar training facilities and children around the world have virtually know knowledge of this ancient weapon, the bow...Have you not seen the great Lord of the Rings trilogy? So many wild pigs! Oh, and that elf, Legolas...so cool when he sent two wild boars off at the same time...yup, elves and pigs: they go together like peanut butter and sausage!...END SPOOFAGE

Needling shot: in torment it does more damage than barrage...consistently (not that I run barrage in torment, just an example)
I play shutdown more often than spike, so admittedly concussion shot, needling shot and Quickshot are more often in my bar than perhaps other Rangers. Sometimes DOT *is* big damage, hence the WS point, although you dont need a lot of points in WS to keep poison going (not to mention traps). Smoke trap is actually a lot of fun to play in PVE, I really like it when the gang goes questing in UW as it's awesome mitigation even for melee critters as one ranger can perma blind with it and dust and/or throw dirt.
Don't get me wrong though, I *do* agree that there are many skills in the Marks line that are essentially worthless since you can only really use one or two pure damage skills ever. I just feel that playing to the Ranger's vast array of other skills is more than sufficient. We're survivors, not primary damage dealers. Disruptors and harriers rather than shock troops. These are the facts of the profession. Making bow skills greater damage accross the board would in my opinion create a major balance issue.

The little things: yeah absolutely, but a big change would just create more problems.

The standard skill bar *is* most usefull in a PUG, but I like to make interesting builds to suit the area, it's more fun to play that way. What can I say, I play for fun and variety is the spice of life.

I think Bow Beast Masters could be a good addition to PvP but the skills have to be improved - that build you've got there is not great.

Crossfire would honestly need to be 0 recharge and run with 13 Expertise for it to be useful with the current effect. There's already so many +damage bow attacks, though. More interesting would be be if Crossfire was 10E, 10 recharge, and caused very short term duration dazed (1.....3 seconds). Then the "unblockable while foe is near an ally" clause would actually be put to good use when you have a pet.

~Z

I almost never take Troll with me these days. A defense/sprint skill or two, and some situational awareness (knowing when to stand and fight, and when to run) keeps me alive. If things look dangerous, the last thing I'm going to do is stand there like a sitting duck for 3 seconds casting Troll. It's easy to interrupt, and even if I succesfully cast it, it probably won't save me anyway. And that's in Normal Mode. In Hard Mode, Troll will do squat.

Flatbows FTW too. They have the range of a longbow, and the refire rate of a shortbow. Negate the flight time with Read the Wind... and you have high damage output from a safe distance (so again, you don't need self-heals)... plus arrows are very difficult to dodge unless the enemy is using a speed boost. (You can forget about dodging Needling, Called Shot etc anyway). I carry a Recurve on switch, but it is rarely needed.

Read the Wind is frequently a better preparation than anything in Wilderness because it does armour-ignoring damage, I'd carry it even if I didn't predominantly use Flatbows.

I frequently run with points in marksmanship and expertise only. If I use a thrid attribute, it's usually for my secondary profession.

I agree that many bow skills are underpowered. There are some good ones (Burning Arrow, Broadhead Arrow, Screaming Shot), but given how they're so expensive as to _require_ expertise, it's no wonder there's so many R/Ps. R/Ps can use an attack line that only requires 1 attribute, benefits from nightfall power inflation, and the skills all cost something a paragon can easily afford, which is even more affordable given the Ranger's 50% increase in energy regen compared to a paragon! Throw in just a few points into expertise and those spear attacks can be spammed all day.

When it comes to Defensive skills, Trolls takes too long and cannot stand up to pressure. Defensive stances are generally better for working off some of the pressure when mixed with kiting.

Keen arrow is really hard to debate since it doesn't do what it's supposed to atm. If it worked as the skill description read, it would be a great skill for any ranger looking to add some dps to their build without sacrificing energy stability, but as it stands, it really is a bit unreliable since you can easily end up spending energy on an attack skill that does nothing unless you critical.

Needling Shot I believe has been a great addition to rangers, but not simply for it's spiking ability or dps, but for it's increased attack speed. While this doesn't mean a whole lot in a lot of PvP situations (due largely to the fact that as said, Apply+Savage+Distracting+Natural Stride+Mending Touch is really what dominates it atm), but in it does have great synergy with BHA and Choking Gas builds since it greatly increases your ability to interupt.

Crossfire, while again not great in PvP for the same reason as Needling Shot, is a good skill I believe. Considering the dps isn't great, it's really not bad for a 5 energy skill and the unblockable bonus is very easy to meet in most PvE situations, even without a pet. Basically, this skill is a good addition when you want a cheap additional attack skill for a bar. I've come to like this when running it in a Burning Arrow PvP build in PvE to replace Savage since interupting in some PvE situations isn't really as important as PvP.

Arcing shot is better than it's skill description implies, but basically inferior to Crossfire due largely to it's higher refire rate. The description easily leads one to think that it fires an arrow in the same manner of BHA, but all it really does is give a shot the same arc as a longbow shot under no effects regardless of bow used (because of this it actually improves your arc when using a flatbow without RtW or FW). However, since one of the greatest advantages to an unblockable shot on a ranger is to spread conditions, a lower recharge is best.