No Exhaustion in Hard Mode? Or...? - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

kvndoom

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2005

Communistwealth of Virginia

Uninstalled

W/Mo

28 May 2007 at 23:01 - 1

Not a complain or a gripe, just an observation. I was doing Gates of Kryta mission earlier today in Hard Mode and took on some Lightning Drakes. As you can see from the shot below, between the 2 of them, they cast Mind Shock on me nearly 40 times, in rapid succession (4 seconds recharge for each Drake, so I was practically knock-locked).

Note that they were also spamming Lightning Orb as it recharged. Now if Exhaustion reduces max energy by 10, then does it not stand to reason that these guys had around 200 energy apiece? (Shock was knocking me down every time they cast it, so they had more energy than I.. I had about 40 max) Or, are monsters in Hard Mode fully or partially immune to exhaustion? They were not using any type of energy management skills, only Shock and Orb.

Anyone else seen any evidence leaning one way or the other on exhaustion in Hard Mode?

LifeInfusion

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: May 2005

in the midline

E/Mo

28 May 2007 at 23:04 - 2

I think monsters cheat with energy.

EDIT: They may also have a lot of energy storage (19+whatever for the levels)

GreatLich

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Aug 2005

28 May 2007 at 23:07 - 3

Um Yeah, the AI cheats... It's been cheating for over 2 years now? Just in Hard mode it's been cheating harder, faster, stronger, better; as the song goes lol

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

28 May 2007 at 23:21 - 4

Working as intended, sadly.

RSGashapon

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2006

Sol 3

R/

28 May 2007 at 23:37 - 5

And again I must ask the question... if the AI doesn't play by the rules, then why should we?

pingu666

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2006

guildhall

[DETH]

28 May 2007 at 23:37 - 6

ppl have said they have level 20 attributes... so...

30base , plus 60, plus say 20 from a staff u cant even get in propocies

110 max

energy load, 19x 5e = 95e, 9x 15 = 135e! total, 230 energy

exhaustion 19x 10 = 190

exhaustion recedes at 1 pip per 3 seconds (equivilent to 1 energy regen)

so they might have 250 -300 energy or something, or they probably have unlimited...

Alleji

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

28 May 2007 at 23:45 - 7

I wouldn't be surprised if mobs are unaffected by exhaustion.

sindex

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2006

California

Swords of Night & Day [SWRD]

28 May 2007 at 23:46 - 8

That’s funny, evil A.I. indeed. Hey at least we know their health is not infinite.

HawkofStorms

Hall Hero

Join Date: Aug 2005

E/

29 May 2007 at 00:34 - 9

Look at all the plant/shadow creatures that use "holy wrath" (lose 5 energy every time your hit). Monsters have long been known to cheat with energy, even in normal mode. Just try a E-denial mesmer in PvE and it becomes very apparent.

More then likely, the monsters have like 1000 energy at all times or something, rather then never suffering from exhuastion (since that explination also explains the other 2 examples I brought up).

Skyy High

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: May 2006

R/

29 May 2007 at 00:34 - 10

Haha, nice observation. It's so sad it's funny.
[edit] And monsters have been proven to have limited energy, it's just very high and very fast recharging, but they do take damage from, for instance, famine and Ancestor's Visage.

Marverick

Forge Runner

Join Date: Aug 2006

R/

29 May 2007 at 00:36 - 11

Actually I've been able to trigger Mind Blast off of a Pain Titan once when I just captured the skill. But that was in normal mode.

Azure Shadows do run out of energy with Holy Wrath. If they cast it on themselves and procede to cast on another ally, and you interrupt them constantly with something like Choking Gas or Daze, they will stop trying to cast it after ~2-3 tries because they ran out of energy.

clarianaeneas

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Sep 2005

R/E

29 May 2007 at 00:54 - 12

Reminds me of Willa the Unpleasant.....*shudder*.....talk about unlimited energy. First time through it took my team a good 15 mins to take it down.

fenix

Major-General Awesome

Join Date: Aug 2005

Aussie Trolling Crew HQ - Event Organiser and IRC Tiger

Ex Talionis [Law], Trinity of the Ascended [ToA] ????????????????&#

W/

29 May 2007 at 01:53 - 13

No need to worry about Exhaustion if you have huge amounts of energy. I think those Life Pods have 700 energy or something, so Hard Mode monsters would have a lot.

Enko

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jun 2006

VA

Mo/

29 May 2007 at 02:08 - 14

would be interesting to see how long it would take to drain them using SV/AV

Dr Strangelove

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Dec 2005

Wasting away again in Margaritaville

[HOTR]

29 May 2007 at 02:43 - 15

From playing with mind blast, it appears that monsters just have insanely high amounts of energy regen.

The max energy of most casters is around 40-50, from casting mind blast on them at the start of a battle. However, they sit at that total for the entire battle, unless they really get spam happy. The only casters I've seen below that are the vamp touch spammers, or anything maintaining holy wrath.

They can maintain large numbers of enchantments and not have energy problems (Dolyak riders, with 45ish max energy can spam heal other like crazy while maintaining 4 enchants).

I've never had more energy than any elementalist, even when switching up to a +30/-2 regen set, so it appears that all eles have 16+ in energy storage and foci of which I can only dream. Since they must have well over 100 energy, exhaustion really isn't going to be an issue.

Curse You

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Apr 2006

South Pole

The Magus Order

N/Mo

29 May 2007 at 03:02 - 16

I think it could be that in Hard Mode they get double energy regen (8 pips) and suffer exhaustion for halve as long (maybe even only get half exhaustion). Since there has never been any official statement as to the full effects of Hard Mode of creatures, it's not impossible.

Ludo

Academy Page

Join Date: May 2007

29 May 2007 at 04:15 - 17

I'm not sure about exhaustion, but Visage and Spirit Shackles do work against some healers I have farmed in Hard Mode (one cast of each and they are done healing), so they do at least have a finite and not outrageous energy level. What regen level they have I have no idea.

IlikeGW

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2005

29 May 2007 at 04:35 - 18

Yeah e-denial works in HM I know for sure. Sounds interesting that the drakes can spam so much... I'd like to see what e-denial does to them but they're a pain in the butt to deal with at all.

Div

I like yumy food!

Join Date: Jan 2006

Where I can eat yumy food

Dead Alley [dR]

Mo/R

29 May 2007 at 05:06 - 19

I'd like to have 8 edenial mesmers and throw a mind wrack on one of those drakes and see when they finally run out of energy

FoxBat

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Apr 2006

Amazon Basin [AB]

Mo/Me

29 May 2007 at 05:31 - 20

Mobs don't cheat on energy. They just have such small skillbars and gimped AI that they can't use all their energy reserves. This makes e-denial often not great, but its still noticeable. Try maintaining spirit shackles on glint sometime and see what happens.

Patrick Smit

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Nov 2006

NiTe

29 May 2007 at 05:42 - 21

Monsters are claimed to be able to activate skills at will, without regard for energy or not. Yes E-denial gets them to 0 energy and hurts them, however they are claimed to continue casting afterwards. Either proofing that their energy regen is high or that they don't need energy for activating skills (i don't know which one, but either is a good explanation).

On wiki they claim they have very high regeneration rates. I know for sure that Koss is right: "Hey that's cheating".

I guess they done that to prevent everyone from running Edenial, effectively mashing all mobs away even in hardmode.

Spazzer

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2006

USA

Team Asshat [Hat]

Mo/E

29 May 2007 at 06:08 - 22

Back when you could farm outside of Harvest Temple with Spirit bond and SV/AV, it certainly did take a while before monsters started taking damage from Famine. They did eventually take damage. Monsters have too much energy, but it's not unlimited.

It is enough to make mesmers lose a lot of their effectiveness, of course.

Series

Banned

Join Date: Aug 2006

29 May 2007 at 15:41 - 23

/signed for AI to have a visable energy bar under their health bar so that e-denial becomes an effective PvE strategy, making mesmers much more useful

lennymon

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2005

Seattle

Odin's Hammer [OH] - Servant's of Fortuna [SoF]

R/

29 May 2007 at 16:31 - 24

Im able to edeny the holy wrath (which by the way is -10e per hit taken, not -5) seeds in ascalon in HM with an axe no problem, they die nicely and it doesn't even take all that long.

Edit: if it wasn't clear I'm just saying that while I can't say that monsters are cheating with exhaustion, I *can* say that it's easy to run them out of energy using their own stupidity.

HayesA

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2006

Pennsylvania

E/

29 May 2007 at 16:35 - 25

I use AV when i do the deadsword farm with my ele, and the baddies don't try to savage chop (or whatever it's called; the interuption skill based on energy.) after I cast AV on my self. (Ancester's Visiage; each time they attack me, loose 3 energy.) Tried in both normal, and HM. ;-)

Ensign

Just Plain Fluffy

Join Date: Dec 2004

Berkeley, CA

Idiot Savants

29 May 2007 at 22:39 - 26

I don't know if monsters cheat on energy regeneration...they might, but I don't think they do inherently. If they do it's only by a few pips.

Two of the bonuses to mobs in Hard Mode is +5 to all attributes, and +33% max energy. For most caster mobs that means a base energy in the 50ish range, and on Eles it's that, +4 per point of Energy Storage. Ele mobs tended to have 12-16 base ES in normal mode, that's 17-21 in Hard Mode. So an Ele probably has 130something base energy in Hard Mode, not something that's going to be easily depleted.

Peace,
-CxE

Red-Tide

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jun 2005

Edmonton, Canada

[Liar]

Mo/

29 May 2007 at 23:57 - 27

umm not easily depeleted??? Do the math on 38 Mind blast's with exhaustion...

It's just sick, I don't expect the game to be easy but some crap in HM is just to powerful and unbalanced.

lennymon

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2005

Seattle

Odin's Hammer [OH] - Servant's of Fortuna [SoF]

R/

30 May 2007 at 01:51 - 28

Yeah? Red-Tide how many foes, and over how long. Without doing a control with a character with known attributes your indignation is arguably baseless. Yes, it is harder but that's what 'we' wanted after all.

Spazzer

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2006

USA

Team Asshat [Hat]

Mo/E

30 May 2007 at 02:35 - 29

Quote:

Originally Posted by lennymon

Yeah? Red-Tide how many foes, and over how long. Without doing a control with a character with known attributes your indignation is arguably baseless. Yes, it is harder but that's what 'we' wanted after all.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10162312

Halfthought

Academy Page

Join Date: Feb 2006

30 May 2007 at 03:34 - 30

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSGashapon

And again I must ask the question... if the AI doesn't play by the rules, then why should we?

because you don't attack the guy whos been prot spirited, spirit bonded, bonded, has stoneflesh aura plus approx 200 al worth of armor buffs

(I hope)

Kale Ironfist

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2006

Australia

Venatio Illuminata [VEIL]

W/

30 May 2007 at 03:48 - 31

That's a kind of battle I don't like to be reminded of. My guild needed some practice runs in TA to get back into the feel of Guild Wars PvP after having spent many months away from it, and we ended up facing a mishmash of casters, one of whom was a geotank. He was the last one alive and didn't try to resurrect his teammates so he probably used his signet.

My Lightning Orb did 4 damage, Blinding Surge and Enervating Charge did 0. My fellow warrior did 65 damage with a <50%HP Final Thrust.

At least the battle before it had a Monk using Frenzied Defense *laughs manically*.

Former Ruling

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Oct 2005

Cedartown, Georgia

R/

30 May 2007 at 05:42 - 32

The AI does indeed cheat, but its on a Per monster Per instance basis.

I found out alot of weird things about Monsters and Energy back when I was testing the now almost defunct R/Me Famine Farmer build (Get in a "safespot" from a boss that uses ranged attacks and lay Shackles,etc and let famine kill them).

Monster's don't always have the same stats on every instance for example.

The first test subject was Stonewrath. He Gale's 5 times as it recharges then waits for a long period of time before Galeing again, I assume he is coded to Exhaust his bar til he has just enough to cast his other stuff left, then not cast gale again til he is fully unexhausted. There were runs where he could be Shackled down into taking Famine damage (Divert his Stone Daggers or he'll never attack with wand), and other runs where apparently his regen was so high that he never fully hit 0 energy even through attacking under shackles. If you let him Stone Dagger - Some runs he would slow down and have to throw in a wand attack between stone daggers when energy reserves got low, and some where he would just spam it til the cows come home with just the aftercast time inbetween.

Sir Tificate

Academy Page

Join Date: Jan 2007

30 May 2007 at 12:27 - 33

Forgive me if this was mentioned, but remember that Mind Shock hits 2x per cast.
Still, though, thats quite a bit of exhaustion they'd build up.

Epinephrine

Master of Beasts

Join Date: Mar 2005

Ottawa, Canada

Servants of Fortuna [SoF]

30 May 2007 at 13:06 - 34

very good point - 38 actuallly means 19 Mindshocks cast, between 2 Drakes that's about 10 each, doable on a mere 100 energy, which they easily have.

housecalls

Academy Page

Join Date: May 2006

31 May 2007 at 02:10 - 35

At the end of the day who says that they have to play by the same rules as players? Why should they have to? They are there to make it very hard for us, thats why Hero interupter FTW!!

housecalls

Academy Page

Join Date: May 2006

31 May 2007 at 02:10 - 36

At the end of the day who says that they have to play by the same rules as players? Why should they have to? They are there to make it very hard for us, thats why Hero interupter FTW!!

Remeard

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Aug 2006

Charter Vanguard

N/

31 May 2007 at 05:35 - 37

Of course they cheat, I've encountered a few enemys that use two elites, so this doesn't surprise me... though I can imagine that they have lots of energy and what not.

freekedoutfish

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2006

E/

31 May 2007 at 08:24 - 38

If its true that the creatures have completely unrealistic energy levels, and arent effected by exhaustion then im not impressed.

I had actually assumed after 18 months of playing, that they did suffer exhaustion and were under the same restrictions.

I actually built a mesma energy drain and interupting hero last night, thinking I could steel energy and render them useless. If its true they have huge energy storages, then that wouldnt work.

I think they should follow the same restrictions and limits as us. Otherwise how is it a realistic fight?

Stealthc

Academy Page

Join Date: Dec 2005

Kansas City Hotsteppers

31 May 2007 at 08:38 - 39

As pointed out earlier it will never be a realistic fight because a human opponent will never attack the fully protted tank blindly.

The AI is abused as much as the AI abuses the mechanics.

If the AI didn't have these advantages they'd never kill anything.

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

31 May 2007 at 09:06 - 40

testing of e-regen in NORMAL mode BEFORE HM!
http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forum...5&postcount=64

additional info that i acquired later:
the minos in question AND the (WARRIOR) centaurs in the Desert (c1) HAD (before HM - so i have no idea if it was changed) an e-regen of 3 pips! (Panic+Well of weariness caused them to stop taking damage from Famine)
the vermins outside of Senji have 4 pips of e-regen - same test. meaning NORMAL e-regen!

so:
all we can say is that e-regen in pve doesn't follow the same rules as regen of players. it seems to do on some monsters BUT not all.
further testing should be done - but I am soo over it!
these days - all i wanna do is look good!
I'll leave the "being smart" to others!