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Originally Posted by Zinger314
And for the 10 seconds each one of those skills are on recharge you...?
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Edit: I've never been to the Deep :|
Think outside of the box (just a little)
Njaiguni Blaze
Edit: I've never been to the Deep :|
arcanemacabre
It is true that cookie-cutter builds are in fact more effective, except in those odd moments where a new, future cookie-cutter build is created.
Now, what would you consider more fun (since this is a game, and should be solely about F-U-N): the same old builds, killing the same old predictable mobs, for the same old (but on very rare occasion decent) loot - OR - new, unique builds in random areas (some easy, some not-so-easy), for the sake of actually playing and not just grabbing loot? If you choose the former, enjoy your cookie-cutter builds. If you choose the latter, stop torturing yourself with cookie-cutter builds just because people say they're the best! (which I believe is what the OP is basically saying)
Now, what would you consider more fun (since this is a game, and should be solely about F-U-N): the same old builds, killing the same old predictable mobs, for the same old (but on very rare occasion decent) loot - OR - new, unique builds in random areas (some easy, some not-so-easy), for the sake of actually playing and not just grabbing loot? If you choose the former, enjoy your cookie-cutter builds. If you choose the latter, stop torturing yourself with cookie-cutter builds just because people say they're the best! (which I believe is what the OP is basically saying)
Gregslot
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Originally Posted by lutz
Who cares what build you're running? If you're playing with friends and having fun, then that's the most important part.
Hell, I've run a bunch of cookie-cutter builds in DoA [you know, 1 OF Tank, 3 Nukers, 3 Monks, 1 BiP] and did City in 45 minutes on HM. It was fast. It was fun. Why? You played with the PEOPLE that made it fun. We'd screw up and have a laugh on vent, and the such, but for the most part we worked. This argument is stupid. |
Doesnt matter where i am (GW, a bar, in my house, at your house), if we are with friends we eventually have some fun.
But you cant expect that other 11 people that dont know each other start beeing friends whenever they join a group.
Most likely everyone wants to have fun, but some of us dont even speak the same language, dont have the same humor. Well, you go the idea right?
Someone mentioned that some players dont see the game as i do. I know that he/she is right because some people dont mind playing only with monk and some people do. Its just a matter of perpective.
Ill be creating a thread later to discuss the build, some people seemed to be very interested in this idea
Njaiguni Blaze
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Originally Posted by Gregslot
I'll be creating a thread later to discuss the build, some people seemed to be very interested in this idea
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Zinger314
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Originally Posted by arcanemacabre
Now, what would you consider more fun (since this is a game, and should be solely about F-U-N): the same old builds, killing the same old predictable mobs, for the same old (but on very rare occasion decent) loot - OR - new, unique builds in random areas (some easy, some not-so-easy), for the sake of actually playing and not just grabbing loot? If you choose the former, enjoy your cookie-cutter builds. If you choose the latter, stop torturing yourself with cookie-cutter builds just because people say they're the best! (which I believe is what the OP is basically saying)
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If you approach The Deep or Urgoz the same way you approach the Realm of Torment, you will die. The best examples are in the first room of each mission; In Urgoz, you have to fight a 20+ enemy mob, and in The Deep, you have to split your party into 3 even groups of 4. They both require certain strategies, and are not carefree.
fenix
Shelter, then just own stuff. Just have a couple damage wars, some caster damage, and it's gg. If you have GOOD monks, it isn't much of an issue, unless you have bad warriors/casters, and they aggro too much stuff.
DFrost
As for the ratio of time spent vs. loot acquired the Wiki builds may be the best and fastest way to do things. Still, the most fun I've had have been in groups consisting of more unusual class combinations. A week back we did the Sorrow's Furnace quests with 3 mesmers, 3 necros and 2 monks, I can say it was a lot more enjoyable than the old gear trick gimmick people used to run.
Cebe
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Originally Posted by Skyy High
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but seriously...
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Originally Posted by Zinger314
And Njaiguni Blaze's "holier than thou" attitude isn't negative?
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Further on topic, I am one for creating non cookie-cutter builds, and I usually play with henchmen and heroes, so that's fine...but on the odd occaision I play with humans and choose to use one of my own concoctions I get some pretty crazed responses...often involving a swift kick from the group without even asking if I can change my build or alter it in some way. An example of such was in AB. My necro got invited into a team, I was trying out a blood build, the wammo said "PING BUILD", which I did and...insta-kick...clearly they wanted an MM. Shortly after my kicking I found myself invited into another group who, politely, asked me to ping my build. I did, and they said "cool, whatever works for you". Oddly enough it did work well for me in the end and we played a few games before they had to leave. *imagines a time when everone might be that accomodating*
From time to time I've been in PuGs with players with horrific builds. I will offer advice on how they can improve them, but not force it upon them, and neither do I kick someone for just having, what I consider to be, a bad build. One class I do get frustrated with however, are elementalists, who clearly have never been introduced to Mr. Attunement and Mrs. Glyph. I can get a bit vocal sometimes...particularly when the inevitable "My energy is 4 of 105" comes along.
allience
i think the thread maker is trying to label his vision of fun to everyone.
i understand that some ppl enjoy spending twice the time on a mission by playing with different builds. i know that there are ppl who care more for the experience of something than the reward. but don't try to apply that notion to everyone.
for example if i were obliged to play that way, i'd just look for a different game. my idea of fun is efficiency. if i can do something in 1 hour for the same reward as doing it in 2, i'll have a lot of fun being efficient. i seriously enjoy getting something with the least amount of effort and many other ppl feel the same way too.
remember there are different types of ppl and u can't say something is fun for everyone.
i understand that some ppl enjoy spending twice the time on a mission by playing with different builds. i know that there are ppl who care more for the experience of something than the reward. but don't try to apply that notion to everyone.
for example if i were obliged to play that way, i'd just look for a different game. my idea of fun is efficiency. if i can do something in 1 hour for the same reward as doing it in 2, i'll have a lot of fun being efficient. i seriously enjoy getting something with the least amount of effort and many other ppl feel the same way too.
remember there are different types of ppl and u can't say something is fun for everyone.
Cebe
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Originally Posted by allience
remember there are different types of ppl and u can't say something is fun for everyone.
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KTBFFH
My advice would be to find a decent alliance/guild, there are many about if you look hard enough.
It's very rare that I see someone told to run a specific build in my alliance, we have done a few Urgoz runs recently, one took 4-5 hours, the other 2-3 (i think, and we had a mesmer with us, oh-no!).
We'll have a basic plan down, and might ask if someone can incorporate a certain skill into their build if possible - I run a SS/death variant and it wasn't hard to squeeze in consume corpse for the bridge.
But when it comes to it it's nearly always a balanced build, and it's rare we don't complete our goal for the trip.
Not everyone plays this game for time spent vs in game reward, a lot of us play for time spent vs fun reward.
I'd much rather commit to a 5 hour trip I enjoy (even if there was a chance of no in-game reward) than to a 2-3 hour trip I didn't enjoy.
It's very rare that I see someone told to run a specific build in my alliance, we have done a few Urgoz runs recently, one took 4-5 hours, the other 2-3 (i think, and we had a mesmer with us, oh-no!).
We'll have a basic plan down, and might ask if someone can incorporate a certain skill into their build if possible - I run a SS/death variant and it wasn't hard to squeeze in consume corpse for the bridge.
But when it comes to it it's nearly always a balanced build, and it's rare we don't complete our goal for the trip.
Not everyone plays this game for time spent vs in game reward, a lot of us play for time spent vs fun reward.
I'd much rather commit to a 5 hour trip I enjoy (even if there was a chance of no in-game reward) than to a 2-3 hour trip I didn't enjoy.
greenchylde
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Originally Posted by Zinger314
Would you rather complete The Deep in 2 hours with a well-crafted group or complete the Deep in 5+ hours with a lackadascial group?
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Bryant Again
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Originally Posted by allience
i think the thread maker is trying to label his vision of fun to everyone.
i understand that some ppl enjoy spending twice the time on a mission by playing with different builds. i know that there are ppl who care more for the experience of something than the reward. but don't try to apply that notion to everyone. for example if i were obliged to play that way, i'd just look for a different game. my idea of fun is efficiency. if i can do something in 1 hour for the same reward as doing it in 2, i'll have a lot of fun being efficient. i seriously enjoy getting something with the least amount of effort and many other ppl feel the same way too. remember there are different types of ppl and u can't say something is fun for everyone. |
Ouchie
My two cents worth
Builds for the elites evolve all the time and yes do change. When I began playing Urgoz the build included one Nuker and many rangers b/p or trap (all R/mo) 2 necros 3-4monks.
Time has gone by and now 3-4 rangers are max out of 12 ~ some groups only take 1-2 and Splinter Rangers are being sought after
a Rit is used only 2 monks
Bips usually have an interesting 2nd Prof
I have seen people looking for Paragons
The Problem is once a build is being used and successful ~ people label it a cookie cutter.
If a group relys on wiki builds -exactly- odds are it will fail, or have one or two people yelling at eachother through the whole mission (Joy).
My monk uses Blessed Light in Urgoz not the "wanted" Elites such as HB(which she has). The Condition removal and hex removal comes in handy and makes her job much easier, especially since very rarely does anyone one have a hex remover in Urgoz. But Heal Party spaming is required in several areas and must be in the build.
An A/R critical barrager is an asset to the team too.
I personally would have no problem adding a mesmer or paragon to an Urgoz team, after all it is a team of 12 of which only 5-6 players are required professions.
IMHO Elite Missions are just a matter of knowing where to go and what is coming. A cookie cutter build will fail if it doesn't know which path to take, or where to stop for pop-ups, and a balanced team should make it through having a good strong leader with the knowledge of where to go, what to do and what to expect, provided the team listens of course.
Builds for the elites evolve all the time and yes do change. When I began playing Urgoz the build included one Nuker and many rangers b/p or trap (all R/mo) 2 necros 3-4monks.
Time has gone by and now 3-4 rangers are max out of 12 ~ some groups only take 1-2 and Splinter Rangers are being sought after
a Rit is used only 2 monks
Bips usually have an interesting 2nd Prof
I have seen people looking for Paragons
The Problem is once a build is being used and successful ~ people label it a cookie cutter.
If a group relys on wiki builds -exactly- odds are it will fail, or have one or two people yelling at eachother through the whole mission (Joy).
My monk uses Blessed Light in Urgoz not the "wanted" Elites such as HB(which she has). The Condition removal and hex removal comes in handy and makes her job much easier, especially since very rarely does anyone one have a hex remover in Urgoz. But Heal Party spaming is required in several areas and must be in the build.
An A/R critical barrager is an asset to the team too.
I personally would have no problem adding a mesmer or paragon to an Urgoz team, after all it is a team of 12 of which only 5-6 players are required professions.
IMHO Elite Missions are just a matter of knowing where to go and what is coming. A cookie cutter build will fail if it doesn't know which path to take, or where to stop for pop-ups, and a balanced team should make it through having a good strong leader with the knowledge of where to go, what to do and what to expect, provided the team listens of course.
rohara
there's some wiggle room for certain places though. like urgoz...taking along a couple oddballs doesn't really hurt anything. hell, i got a bunch of alliance people together to go to urgoz and i wasn't about to tell the warriors or mesmers they couldn't go. we had one warrior set himself up as a W/P party buffer (gfte, watch yourself, shields up, etc) and he was quite an asset. as long as the person synergizes (is that a word?) with what is already known to work well, there's no reason to be a snob about it.
reetkever
Well, Urgoz and the Deep aren't as hard, but if you mean stuff like DoA, cookie cutter builds can't be avoided. If A-Net made monsters stronger instead of cheating, this could've been prevented, but against cheating monsters with annoying area effects, not many build options remain.
The problem with the Factions Elite missions, is that they take lots of time. People want to do the missions as fast as possible, and the better your skillset/weaponset is, the faster you can kill monsters.
The problem with the Factions Elite missions, is that they take lots of time. People want to do the missions as fast as possible, and the better your skillset/weaponset is, the faster you can kill monsters.
lacasner
Don't pug, that is the solution. But, this game is built around teamplay, so I don't know enough about people's guild situations to make a judgement call.
Ouchie
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Originally Posted by reetkever
Well, Urgoz and the Deep aren't as hard, but if you mean stuff like DoA, cookie cutter builds can't be avoided. If A-Net made monsters stronger instead of cheating, this could've been prevented, but against cheating monsters with annoying area effects, not many build options remain.
The problem with the Factions Elite missions, is that they take lots of time. People want to do the missions as fast as possible, and the better your skillset/weaponset is, the faster you can kill monsters. |
I always get a giggle when I hear the "Anet is cheating" - hubby said that at the begining of HM along with "they gave them like walkie talkies or something" lol. I always figured they can't cheat cause they make the rules
ON Topic
Urgoz and the Deep have just been around longer so more players know what to do making them seem easier. I do believe that any Prof. can do anywhere if they take the time to build against the area.
Corinthian
In a game like GW, where you are limited to select only 8 of dozens of skills, there will be and always has been ONE, UNIVERSAL, THE BEST BUILD available for each class. Thus there will be ONE, UNIVERSAL, THE BEST TEAM BUILD. Which will complete the task with least effort in least time.
Why oh why oh why should or would anyone bother to use anything else than the very best and fastest one available? For the sake of originality? For the sake of fun? Taking longer and being less effective than optimum rarely is fun or original.
Why oh why oh why should or would anyone bother to use anything else than the very best and fastest one available? For the sake of originality? For the sake of fun? Taking longer and being less effective than optimum rarely is fun or original.
Perkunas
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Originally Posted by Zinger314
It's ArenaNet's fault that the cookie-cutters exist, not the players'. |
'Cookie-cutter' builds are not ANets fault, but the people that try to make me play like them.
MSecorsky
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Originally Posted by Njaiguni Blaze
Hi, lemme introduce myself: I am Mr. Cookiecutter Hater.
I enjoy FoW alot and use my main char there, my mesmer. Usually I am the only mesmer around in the european server. Before I got my KoaBD title, I hardly got invited or got ppl to join, but I must say I am more useful than any Renewal Nuker, SS or Tank around there. Reason why? 3 skills: Hex Eater Vortex, Shatter Hex and Backfire. I don't know if you'd like to know some builds for the mesmer, if so, I'd be happy to give some. Usually you can't go wrong with the Domination Line, Res Chant and Auspicious Incantion in your build. Also, if you're doing one of these lite areas again, gimme a whisper. My IGN is Nolani Blaze. Greets, a fellow cookiemonster (I eat cookicutters) |
My mez uses those exact skills as well in FoW. It can cause massive damage. Mistrust is a good one to take in there as well, if you haven't, give it a shot.
Well met!
mazik
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Originally Posted by Zinger314
It's ArenaNet's fault that the cookie-cutters exist, not the players'.
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On topic, if you want to try new builds and such, ok, but generally speaking cookie cutters do work faster and are easier to organize with PUGs. Not saying they are the best, but they are easier to organize with people you are unfamiliar with. Just do whatever if fun for you, and you can get to work....why are we even fighting about this?
Gregslot
Everyone interested on participating and helping with a "out-side-of-the-box build" please go here and give you comments/suggetions
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...34#post2865834
I hope this doesnt get lost in these pages :/
Thank you for helping =]
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...34#post2865834
I hope this doesnt get lost in these pages :/
Thank you for helping =]
Yichi
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Originally Posted by allience
i think the thread maker is trying to label his vision of fun to everyone.
i understand that some ppl enjoy spending twice the time on a mission by playing with different builds. i know that there are ppl who care more for the experience of something than the reward. but don't try to apply that notion to everyone. for example if i were obliged to play that way, i'd just look for a different game. my idea of fun is efficiency. if i can do something in 1 hour for the same reward as doing it in 2, i'll have a lot of fun being efficient. i seriously enjoy getting something with the least amount of effort and many other ppl feel the same way too. remember there are different types of ppl and u can't say something is fun for everyone. |
12 chars....
englitdaudelin
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Originally Posted by Zinger314
Would you rather complete The Deep in 2 hours with a well-crafted group or complete the Deep in 5+ hours with a lackadascial group?
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C. Get in a lacksadaisical group and at least SEE a couple of rooms of The Deep in an hour or two before my kids call me back to real life, instead of being entirely excluded because I don't fit that build
D. Find alliance mates who will take you and some heroes, and combine with choice C.
Tiny Killer
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Originally Posted by Zinger314
Prove it.
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Originally Posted by Zinger314
Give an example of a build and a scenario where a non-cookie cutter build would be, beyond a shadow of a doubt, superior to a cookie cutter build.
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Amy Awien
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Originally Posted by Corinthian
Why oh why oh why should or would anyone bother to use anything else than the very best and fastest one available?
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And what is the best build? There is no objective and universal set of criteria that would enable one to compare builds and determine which build is better then another, let alone which is 'the best'.
zwei2stein
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Originally Posted by Tiny Killer
You think you can demand things of me? I find that very humorous.
Based on many of your previous posts, I do not have enough time in this life to explain to you how a non cookie-cutter build would work. You will have to learn game mechanics from another source. |
Show us decent noncookie build that would make someone want to kick cookie person from party to get you inside, i dare you.
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Originally Posted by Amy Awien
But, as in the past, the current 'cookie-cutter' build is not the best. It never is.
And what is the best build? There is no objective and universal set of criteria that would enable one to compare builds and determine which build is better then another, let alone which is 'the best'. |
We even had noncookie builds prevail some times (MM+SS necroes taking over nuker duty in SF and then prety much everywhere.).
But guess what? they became hated cookies at exact moment they because sussecfull.
Thats it, cookie haters are quite strange bunch - they praise builds for being effective and cool because they are not used by anyone, but once theese builds get recognized for their power and widely used they become hated asap.
So, anti cookies, put your build forward! i dare you.
You will either get laughted at.
Or your build will be awesome and you will start to hate it immediatelly.
It's kinda loose-loose situation, eh.
Gregslot
Yes, but if we have two cookie cutters then we will have a larger variety of builds, wich is what we are trying to prove.
If the build i posted succeeds then all classes will be able to play in there. So it will be available to all (considering that the players are capable of chinging builds, heh)
So please, check the build and give you opinion and suggestions about it.
(wtf? you want to do this or not?)
Here is the link... again...
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...34#post2865834
If the build i posted succeeds then all classes will be able to play in there. So it will be available to all (considering that the players are capable of chinging builds, heh)
So please, check the build and give you opinion and suggestions about it.
(wtf? you want to do this or not?)
Here is the link... again...
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...34#post2865834
Amy Awien
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Originally Posted by zwei2stein
Thats it, cookie haters are quite strange bunch - they praise builds for being effective and cool because they are not used by anyone, but once theese builds get recognized for their power and widely used they become hated asap.
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Gregslot
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Originally Posted by Amy Awien
Well, no, not exactly. There aren't any 'cookie' haters, just people who enjoy playing around with different builds and with enough inspiration and creativity to experiment with builds themselves. And they do not hate cookies, they just don't like it when the uninspired cookie lusers expect them to use these overused cookies again and again and again. That is just so boring, like chewing gum for too long.
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I can only draw some of them O.o
Hahahaaha
Check the build people:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...34#post2865834
PLEASE!
i like cake
Mylon
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Originally Posted by Vyral
I still find it amusing to take my Ritualist down to the Deep to try to join a PuG group. It is almost invariably impossible. Even after posting the 6 Man Deep build on guildwiki (now, in unedited form on PvXwiki) I still couldn't get anybody to take a ritualist seriously down there. Yet my guild doesn't ever run without one. Today I was told by every PuG in a team I joined that my warrior needed Recall. I was trying a new trick to replace Recall and it works _flawlessly_. Yet the only reason that I didn't get booted from the team was that I was the leader of it. Our current 9 man HM build (still being optimized) uses a Ritualist _and_ a Paragon. Try finding a paragon in any other group. Yet we still make the run as fast or faster than any build containing elementalists (we don't use any) and at the beginning Room 2 clears itself _without_ needing to be rescued. The difference between our build and the cookie cutter builds is synergy. With synergy comes efficiency and speed. And its a lot of fun to play.
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Superdarth
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Originally Posted by Gregslot
I dont know about you, but i feel unconfortable by seeing people giving this bad image of the game for newcomers.
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You are right, there is no fun in it and players no longer play for fun, for that reason i dont want anything to do with them unless i need money. (And when i say need i dont mean that latest 100k weapon wich is so not worth the money)
Yol
Up until a few months ago, I didn't care about cookie cutter builds.....I have a ranger set up for tombs teams that then became a splinter barrager, so it would be hypocritical to knock them I guess. However, I started to become really disappointed with cookie cutter builds when I started doing AB, specifically finding that every Luxon team I was fighting was made up entirely of CC builds. As an elem, it made me start to think about new builds for dealing damage that didn't rely on met shower, searing flames or sandstorm, and could withstand all those annoying CC assassins. My joy came when I finally came up with a build that can solo cap shrines in AB (except warrior and monk shrines, for some reason) and withstand CC assassin attacks......seeing sins run away because they hadn't killed me in a matter of seconds was most gratifying.
I guess CC builds have their place (certainly in PVE), but it doesn't mean they should be the be-all and end-all of game play, and their fame also makes them open to counters in PvP if you're prepared to do a bit of experimenting. My next target is an anti-MM elem.
I guess CC builds have their place (certainly in PVE), but it doesn't mean they should be the be-all and end-all of game play, and their fame also makes them open to counters in PvP if you're prepared to do a bit of experimenting. My next target is an anti-MM elem.
Gregslot
Just did a run at Urgoz with the assassin i suggested for The Deep. The team consisted in a Warrior (tank), myself (assassin), mesmer (dunno what it was), 2 ritualists (one channeling and one communing),2 fire nukers, 2 monks, 2 necros (blood and bip) a ranger and something else.
We were doing as good as the B/P teams, we had no problem on tanking, dealing damage, healing... everything was fine.
But unfortunately 4 had to leave during the run and then we just gave up. Couldnt pass by the wardens without a tank and ritualists
We were doing as good as the B/P teams, we had no problem on tanking, dealing damage, healing... everything was fine.
But unfortunately 4 had to leave during the run and then we just gave up. Couldnt pass by the wardens without a tank and ritualists
Bryant Again
Cookie-cut builds are proof that Guild Wars PvE takes little to no skill to beat. That's my only real complaint against them.
Pwny Ride
Us cookiecutters want to win Greg. It's a concept you may not understand. You see i too play mesmer in PvE, she's my main, but i actually took the initiative and say....tried something different, which is how i got my Ranger, Elementalist, Dervish and Necromancer, and i enjoy them all, throughy.
Cookiecutting is the way to go in Elite areas. Builds like Echo SF nukers where designed to get the job done in the most efficient way possible, and they do that, better than a mesmer could. ever.
Be unique where it actually matters, PvP. You can actually show off there and get noticed for it. And take this coming from someone who despised cookiecutters (actually despised water magic all together, but fire gives me a reason to spam fireballs like a tard
) once a long time ago.
So Greg, suck it up.
Cookiecutting is the way to go in Elite areas. Builds like Echo SF nukers where designed to get the job done in the most efficient way possible, and they do that, better than a mesmer could. ever.
Be unique where it actually matters, PvP. You can actually show off there and get noticed for it. And take this coming from someone who despised cookiecutters (actually despised water magic all together, but fire gives me a reason to spam fireballs like a tard
) once a long time ago. So Greg, suck it up.
Njaiguni Blaze
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Originally Posted by Bryant Again
Cookie-cut builds are proof that Guild Wars PvE takes little to no skill to beat. That's my only real complaint against them.
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Also, CC builds are not PvE only. PvP is crawling with them. Especially HA, which is basically CC only.
Rockby Quickfoot
I've played a Mesmer as my first and main character, and I've always wanted to try these elite missions. I don't really play any other characters, just my Mesmer. I've been to Urgoz's Warren twice with some guildies, first time we failed, the next I got disconnected. Never got to see the Deep, only very small parts of the Underworld, and none of the Fissure of Woe (which I've always been quite interested in seeing firsthand!). I've always wanted to get the Domain of Anguish done and off my quest log too (done every other quest besides that one) I suppose lack of the Underworld and Fissure is mostly due to lack of favor.
Another thing is, I don't want to go down there and farm. Just isn't fun for me. I want to do the quests. I've done all the other quests, and finishing these would help round of my experience. Unfortunately, everyone seems to use them for farming these days. If anyone wants to actually play in these areas, do contact me.
~Rockby Quickfoot
Another thing is, I don't want to go down there and farm. Just isn't fun for me. I want to do the quests. I've done all the other quests, and finishing these would help round of my experience. Unfortunately, everyone seems to use them for farming these days. If anyone wants to actually play in these areas, do contact me.
~Rockby Quickfoot
Krazi Bastid
ppl need to remember that these elite missions are long. maybe its not that hard to do and its mindless clicking of buttons or watever. regardless, it still takes time to do. pretty sure no one wants to take a chance on a creative/original/out of the box build and get to 50% of the mission and not complete it. as it is now, these cookie cutter builds are the standard. theyre a set skillbar that anyone can jus ping and ppl will be like ok cool. if someone joins a group and pings some unknown bar, dont be upset that they dont want to risk a 2hour run to experiment if ur build works. maybe it does work or watever but when it comes down to it, its a choice of "100percent proven that it works (the cc build)" or the "MAYBE it works, i only have the players word and i dont know him" creative build. i see a paragon tank in doa sometimes. im sure ppl called him noob and hated on him cus he was paragon. but i was in a group with him, and he tanked like a champ. so, now his build is proven that it works. so now im sure ppl wont jus ragekick him. im not a creative dude. i use simple build. speedboost on skill1, selfheal on 7, res on 8. 2-6 are some defense and/or attack skills. for those elite missions, i use a cc build cus it works and i am too lazy/dumb to make my own.