So, I've been playing my rit for quite a while, and I still can't seem to solve this question:
If I'm carrying spirits, how high should I set Spawning? Right now I run it at 9+1. This seems to make spirits healthy enough to last for a battle, especially in the back lines.
This is one primary attribute that I just don't quite understand...
So, what have you found?
How important is Spawning Power?
englitdaudelin
frojack
The only spirits spawning has any real use for are the communing ones that take damage when their function triggers (Wanderlust, Shelter, Displacement, Union, Earthbind). Since most of those are rubbish (Wanderlust being only half decent), Spawning is completely useless in the grand scheme of things.
I'd only spec in spawning for the skills. Most however aren't really all that these days anyway. Thanks to the fact that e-management can be facilitated quite satisfactorily by channeling magic now (Offering of Spirit).
Beyond that Feast of Souls, Rupture Soul, and possibly Wielder's Remedy are notable skills in the line. Wielder's Zeal is one skill I thought would be pretty good. In practice however it falls short. It would have been better as a percentage value (much like Renewing Memories) that topped out at something like 60-70% or something like that. Even then it's only really useful for Vengeful Weapon anyways.
I guess Resilient Weapon would be a good one to spread around on your allies if your foes hexes overcome your teams hex removal as the duration is pretty good. It's useful if foes are constantly bombarding you with hexes, as even after mass removal Resilient will just begin working again if it get's a condition or hex. However just -4 possibly -5 on 10 energy skills you want to spread fast isn't so hot...
Go go primary attribute...
EDIT: Incidentally if Wielder's became better at mitigating weapon spell costs (high percentage value), Guided Weapon, and possibly Brutal might become more interesting. If only Wielders wasn't elite in the first place I might actually consider spawning for it. Yay' for random thoughts...
I'd only spec in spawning for the skills. Most however aren't really all that these days anyway. Thanks to the fact that e-management can be facilitated quite satisfactorily by channeling magic now (Offering of Spirit).
Beyond that Feast of Souls, Rupture Soul, and possibly Wielder's Remedy are notable skills in the line. Wielder's Zeal is one skill I thought would be pretty good. In practice however it falls short. It would have been better as a percentage value (much like Renewing Memories) that topped out at something like 60-70% or something like that. Even then it's only really useful for Vengeful Weapon anyways.
I guess Resilient Weapon would be a good one to spread around on your allies if your foes hexes overcome your teams hex removal as the duration is pretty good. It's useful if foes are constantly bombarding you with hexes, as even after mass removal Resilient will just begin working again if it get's a condition or hex. However just -4 possibly -5 on 10 energy skills you want to spread fast isn't so hot...
Go go primary attribute...
EDIT: Incidentally if Wielder's became better at mitigating weapon spell costs (high percentage value), Guided Weapon, and possibly Brutal might become more interesting. If only Wielders wasn't elite in the first place I might actually consider spawning for it. Yay' for random thoughts...
LifeInfusion
I'd say it is only useful if running spirits that damage themselves, like frojack said.
-Shelter
-Displacement
-Union
-wanderlust
-Earthbind
Anyhow, the only other reason to pump it is for the skills in it, like Attuned was Songkai or Boon of Creation for energy.
-Shelter
-Displacement
-Union
-wanderlust
-Earthbind
Anyhow, the only other reason to pump it is for the skills in it, like Attuned was Songkai or Boon of Creation for energy.
Xiooua
I'd consider it the worst primary attribute in the game. It's only useful for Ritualists who are spamming spirits like the poster's above me mentioned.
It's odd to me that the Ritualist primary is really only useful for certain builds, while the Ritualist itself is one of the most varied classes. You have many options when it comes to builds, yet your primary is only useful for a few.
It's odd to me that the Ritualist primary is really only useful for certain builds, while the Ritualist itself is one of the most varied classes. You have many options when it comes to builds, yet your primary is only useful for a few.
Pick Me
Spawning is for the skills in that attribute. Yes, it only is good for animating the dead or for summoning any spirit as an attribute.
People tend to forget that a spell or two from channelling removes health from 1 nearby spirit, and using that spirit, lets say, blood song will do damage, and lose health from lets say, Gaze From Beyond.
Spawning:
Attuned Was Songkai (e)
Spirit Channelling (e)
Wielder's Zeal (e)
Wielder's Remedy
Spirit's Strength (e)
Renewing Memories
These skills do not require a spirit (Spirit Channelling will give you health when it ends if you are near a spirit though).
People tend to forget that a spell or two from channelling removes health from 1 nearby spirit, and using that spirit, lets say, blood song will do damage, and lose health from lets say, Gaze From Beyond.
Spawning:
Attuned Was Songkai (e)
Spirit Channelling (e)
Wielder's Zeal (e)
Wielder's Remedy
Spirit's Strength (e)
Renewing Memories
These skills do not require a spirit (Spirit Channelling will give you health when it ends if you are near a spirit though).
Fishmonger
I agree with pick me. Unless you are using spirits or minions, the innate effect of SP is pointless. The energy management portion is superb though (taking off almost a fifth of my health for energy is a little risky in a battle. and if you have a spirit around, you still might want SP). All the ones that pick me stated are very powerful and only for rits. Reclaim Essence is good too in a lot of situations(killing a bone minion or life and get 20e FTW). so really, the skills are useful in the line, just not the effect.
Funny how they give rits all these "do everything" skills (spirit's strength, Destructive was Glaive, etc.) yet they lock us down in our own primary
Funny how they give rits all these "do everything" skills (spirit's strength, Destructive was Glaive, etc.) yet they lock us down in our own primary
ArKaiN
Pretty sure the answer is "not much". It's kinda useful with spirit spammers, since it makes the spirits take more abuse before they go down, but meh.
Dr Strangelove
Spawning power is like strength, completely worthless effect, awesome skills.
Pericles
Something i've been thinking about is the logic in this attribute, it doesn't make any sense: Why pick such a non-versatile primary attribute with such a versatile profession? I would've chosen a primary profession which boosts all three attributes with all skills tied to it like Expertise.
frojack
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pericles
Something i've been thinking about is the logic in this attribute, it doesn't make any sense: Why pick such a non-versatile primary attribute with such a versatile profession? I would've chosen a primary profession which boosts all three attributes with all skills tied to it like Expertise.
Exactly... Perfect description of the situation.
What is provides for spirits doesn't really help all of them. Some are either designed to die, heal themselves, and just won't last long under real pressure, even with high spawning. With only about 4 in spawning the spirits I don't have a problem with are durable enough for what they do (attack, healing guys). Spawning really needs to help with something like creation time for me to take it seriously in terms of spirits.
Then let's not forget the fact that it does zero to help with the thing the Ritualist is actually really good at. Weapon Spells (and to a lesser extent Item Spells).
A Renewing Memories style effect should be inherent within the attribute itself without the holding clause. Either that or a rebate system. You could even drive up certain spell costs to keep it as the preserve of the Ritualist, if you feel it over-powered on other classes (Some people actually reckon Weapon of Warding is over-powered on Water Flag runners etc.) just as long as the rebate/reduction is good enough.
I would really like to see Quickening, Brutal, but more so Guided, and Xinrae's Weapon see more play...
EDIT: Xinrae's could actually use a buff imo. Keep the spell cost, but increase the duration and disable time, but also reduce the recharge. Then it might be good against not only spike, but also hex spam from multiple or single offenders.
What is provides for spirits doesn't really help all of them. Some are either designed to die, heal themselves, and just won't last long under real pressure, even with high spawning. With only about 4 in spawning the spirits I don't have a problem with are durable enough for what they do (attack, healing guys). Spawning really needs to help with something like creation time for me to take it seriously in terms of spirits.
Then let's not forget the fact that it does zero to help with the thing the Ritualist is actually really good at. Weapon Spells (and to a lesser extent Item Spells).
A Renewing Memories style effect should be inherent within the attribute itself without the holding clause. Either that or a rebate system. You could even drive up certain spell costs to keep it as the preserve of the Ritualist, if you feel it over-powered on other classes (Some people actually reckon Weapon of Warding is over-powered on Water Flag runners etc.) just as long as the rebate/reduction is good enough.
I would really like to see Quickening, Brutal, but more so Guided, and Xinrae's Weapon see more play...
EDIT: Xinrae's could actually use a buff imo. Keep the spell cost, but increase the duration and disable time, but also reduce the recharge. Then it might be good against not only spike, but also hex spam from multiple or single offenders.
LifeInfusion
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pick Me
Attuned Was Songkai (e)
Spirit Channelling (e)
Wielder's Zeal (e)
Wielder's Remedy
Spirit's Strength (e) Too bad the only ones worth using with high Spawning Power are Attuned was Songkai and Renewing Memories (13+ Spawning breakpoint).
Spirit's Strength is really specialized. You really have to run a build around it to get it to work well. (It should really be in channeling IMO).
Spirit Channeling is kind of a hassle without spirits.
Wielder's Zeal is horrible when you consider that Attuned was Songkai yields a return on everything that a ritualist casts. You also don't need very high spawning to upkeep it, but 14 Spawning to get 5 energy back, which is not very useful given the attribute points. Combined with the fact that Wielder's Zeal locks you out of an elite, which means you are confined to non-elite weapon spell spamm-age.
Wielder's Remedy doesn't need points in spawning to be kept up.
Spirit Channelling (e)
Wielder's Zeal (e)
Wielder's Remedy
Spirit's Strength (e) Too bad the only ones worth using with high Spawning Power are Attuned was Songkai and Renewing Memories (13+ Spawning breakpoint).
Spirit's Strength is really specialized. You really have to run a build around it to get it to work well. (It should really be in channeling IMO).
Spirit Channeling is kind of a hassle without spirits.
Wielder's Zeal is horrible when you consider that Attuned was Songkai yields a return on everything that a ritualist casts. You also don't need very high spawning to upkeep it, but 14 Spawning to get 5 energy back, which is not very useful given the attribute points. Combined with the fact that Wielder's Zeal locks you out of an elite, which means you are confined to non-elite weapon spell spamm-age.
Wielder's Remedy doesn't need points in spawning to be kept up.
Pick Me
Quote:
Originally Posted by LifeInfusion
Too bad the only ones worth using with high Spawning Power are Attuned was Songkai and Renewing Memories (13+ Spawning breakpoint).
Spirit's Strength is really specialized. You really have to run a build around it to get it to work well. (It should really be in channeling IMO).
Spirit Channeling is kind of a hassle without spirits.
Wielder's Zeal is horrible when you consider that Attuned was Songkai yields a return on everything that a ritualist casts. You also don't need very high spawning to upkeep it, but 14 Spawning to get 5 energy back, which is not very useful given the attribute points. Combined with the fact that Wielder's Zeal locks you out of an elite, which means you are confined to non-elite weapon spell spamm-age.
Wielder's Remedy doesn't need points in spawning to be kept up. I only put out the good skills (or in your opinion only 2 of them are good) from Spawning that have nothing really to do without spirits.
Pericles:
Let's look at the other classes:
Elementalist - energy storage is good for everything
Necromancer - energy regain is good for everything
Monk - healing from divine favor, good for monk spells on target allies only
Warrior - armor penetration on weapon attacks only
Ranger - reduces non-spell skill costs
Mesmer - reduces casting time of spells only
Assassin - energy gain on critical hits only
Paragon - energy gain per ally that is affected by your shout (upto x energy)
Dervish - energy and health gain when an enchantment ends on you.
I doubt it is the worst, but it don't forget, it works with Rangers, Ritualists and Necromancers. Any type of summoning.
Spirit's Strength is really specialized. You really have to run a build around it to get it to work well. (It should really be in channeling IMO).
Spirit Channeling is kind of a hassle without spirits.
Wielder's Zeal is horrible when you consider that Attuned was Songkai yields a return on everything that a ritualist casts. You also don't need very high spawning to upkeep it, but 14 Spawning to get 5 energy back, which is not very useful given the attribute points. Combined with the fact that Wielder's Zeal locks you out of an elite, which means you are confined to non-elite weapon spell spamm-age.
Wielder's Remedy doesn't need points in spawning to be kept up. I only put out the good skills (or in your opinion only 2 of them are good) from Spawning that have nothing really to do without spirits.
Pericles:
Let's look at the other classes:
Elementalist - energy storage is good for everything
Necromancer - energy regain is good for everything
Monk - healing from divine favor, good for monk spells on target allies only
Warrior - armor penetration on weapon attacks only
Ranger - reduces non-spell skill costs
Mesmer - reduces casting time of spells only
Assassin - energy gain on critical hits only
Paragon - energy gain per ally that is affected by your shout (upto x energy)
Dervish - energy and health gain when an enchantment ends on you.
I doubt it is the worst, but it don't forget, it works with Rangers, Ritualists and Necromancers. Any type of summoning.
frojack
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pick Me
I only put out the good skills (or in your opinion only 2 of them are good) from Spawning that have nothing really to do without spirits.
Pericles:
Let's look at the other classes:
Elementalist - energy storage is good for everything
Necromancer - energy regain is good for everything
Monk - healing from divine favor, good for monk spells on target allies only
Warrior - armor penetration on weapon attacks only
Ranger - reduces non-spell skill costs
Mesmer - reduces casting time of spells only
Assassin - energy gain on critical hits only
Paragon - energy gain per ally that is affected by your shout (upto x energy)
Dervish - energy and health gain when an enchantment ends on you.
I doubt it is the worst, but it don't forget, it works with Rangers, Ritualists and Necromancers. Any type of summoning. Let's look at that list again...
Elementalist - Energy storage is ok. Doesn't improve regenerate of that energy any faster but it's ok. Good for exhaustion spells, but then there are only about 6 exhaustion spells worth using in the entire line. 7 (maybe 8) if you like to make Shadow Monks fall over...
Necromancer - energy regain when things die is friggin' amazing.
Monk - Divine healing affects near enough 'all' the spells that are focused on prot or healing, with a few notable exceptions like LoD, Heal Party, crap like Heal Area etc..
Warrior - Virtually useless AP on skills that really don't benefit that much from it.
Ranger - cost reduction on everything that costs energy that isn't a spell. So all skills in it's own line, all skills in others to. (Even makes creating spirits cheaper, making even more of a mockery of spawning).
Mesmer - Makes your character very hard to interrupt. Speeds up res spells. An ok primary. Just about better than E storage.
Assassin - Gain energy when you critical. Great since there are a many skills that can improve the chances of this and at least 3 skills that can guarantee a critical. Not even mentioning auto-critical on foes moving away...
Paragon - energy gain per ally that is affected by your shout (upto x energy). Good for the expensive shout's and chant's that exist out there. Paragons also have adrenaline cost skills giving them 2 actual 'battery' lines. Win win situation...
Dervish - Get's hp and energy from enchantments that end on them. Dervish have many good, short enchantments of their own to feed this. Considering they also don't actually have to be the casters of the enchantments they can get benefit from, makes it possible to actually manufacture this gain. Good primary.
Your assertion that it also works with ranger spirits doesn't mention the fact that this is more or less meaningless. Ranger spirits don't have improved function with higher hp, nor do they lose hp when thier function triggers.
No matter how much spawning you have, no spirit will last any notable length of time under any real pressure. If your opponent wants that spirit dead, more than likely it won't last long regardless of hp...
Minions are the only things that truly benefit from spawning. There are also some really cool skills in the line that can help heal them (as well as all allies) and hurt the enemy (Spirit's Gift and Explosive Growth respectively).
A nice 'easter egg' for sure but it doesn't justify the attribute being rubbish for 80% of what the class is actually good at.
Spawning is neck and neck with Strength in the bitter battle for the title of shittiest attribute...
Pericles:
Let's look at the other classes:
Elementalist - energy storage is good for everything
Necromancer - energy regain is good for everything
Monk - healing from divine favor, good for monk spells on target allies only
Warrior - armor penetration on weapon attacks only
Ranger - reduces non-spell skill costs
Mesmer - reduces casting time of spells only
Assassin - energy gain on critical hits only
Paragon - energy gain per ally that is affected by your shout (upto x energy)
Dervish - energy and health gain when an enchantment ends on you.
I doubt it is the worst, but it don't forget, it works with Rangers, Ritualists and Necromancers. Any type of summoning. Let's look at that list again...
Elementalist - Energy storage is ok. Doesn't improve regenerate of that energy any faster but it's ok. Good for exhaustion spells, but then there are only about 6 exhaustion spells worth using in the entire line. 7 (maybe 8) if you like to make Shadow Monks fall over...
Necromancer - energy regain when things die is friggin' amazing.
Monk - Divine healing affects near enough 'all' the spells that are focused on prot or healing, with a few notable exceptions like LoD, Heal Party, crap like Heal Area etc..
Warrior - Virtually useless AP on skills that really don't benefit that much from it.
Ranger - cost reduction on everything that costs energy that isn't a spell. So all skills in it's own line, all skills in others to. (Even makes creating spirits cheaper, making even more of a mockery of spawning).
Mesmer - Makes your character very hard to interrupt. Speeds up res spells. An ok primary. Just about better than E storage.
Assassin - Gain energy when you critical. Great since there are a many skills that can improve the chances of this and at least 3 skills that can guarantee a critical. Not even mentioning auto-critical on foes moving away...
Paragon - energy gain per ally that is affected by your shout (upto x energy). Good for the expensive shout's and chant's that exist out there. Paragons also have adrenaline cost skills giving them 2 actual 'battery' lines. Win win situation...
Dervish - Get's hp and energy from enchantments that end on them. Dervish have many good, short enchantments of their own to feed this. Considering they also don't actually have to be the casters of the enchantments they can get benefit from, makes it possible to actually manufacture this gain. Good primary.
Your assertion that it also works with ranger spirits doesn't mention the fact that this is more or less meaningless. Ranger spirits don't have improved function with higher hp, nor do they lose hp when thier function triggers.
No matter how much spawning you have, no spirit will last any notable length of time under any real pressure. If your opponent wants that spirit dead, more than likely it won't last long regardless of hp...
Minions are the only things that truly benefit from spawning. There are also some really cool skills in the line that can help heal them (as well as all allies) and hurt the enemy (Spirit's Gift and Explosive Growth respectively).
A nice 'easter egg' for sure but it doesn't justify the attribute being rubbish for 80% of what the class is actually good at.
Spawning is neck and neck with Strength in the bitter battle for the title of shittiest attribute...
LifeInfusion
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pick Me
Pericles:
Let's look at the other classes:
E/N/Mo/W/R/Me/A/P/D
I doubt it is the worst, but it don't forget, it works with Rangers, Ritualists and Necromancers. Any type of summoning.
Rocks without skills from attribute
Expertise- Hands down the best primary attribute since it affects all ranger skills.
Divine Favor - without this, you might as well run a e/mo or rt/mo or me/mo or n/mo.
Critical strikes - energy gain on criticals + high critical chance = no loss of energy (Critical barrager is an example)
Leadership - energy gain on shouts/chants means you have an insane energy engine with go for the eyes and other 4-6 adrenaline shouts (especially with IAS)
Mysticism - like Soul reaping, gives energy inflow and negligible health gain. Unlike soul reaping, it gives it when enchantments end. Therefore, it is perfect for maintaining things with low energy costs. Also, some of the skills really augment the Dervish's capabilities.
Marginal without skills from attribute
Soul Reaping- This is the opposite of energy storage. Energy storage gives a bigger pool, this gives a bigger inflow of energy in PVE areas. It isn't all that useful in PvP (compared to PvE) when running a team that doesn't score fast kills. You don't need a whole lot of it, 5-6 is enough for a regular Necro that isn't a MM.
Fast Casting - more so for pvp and PvE hard mode, but Fast casting is useful even without any of the skills in it (too bad there is diminishing returns). affecting all spells means it effectively uses all caster spells quicker, which may not be useful in all PVE situations but certainly in PVP.
Sucks without skills from attribute
Energy storage is a bad attribute if you aren't running exhaustion and 15-25 energy skills because it doesn't have any use for spam.
Energy storage just acts as a bucket of energy, with a set regeneration. It would be like turning on the faucet with a bigger tub to fill. Once the tub fills then you need a bigger tub, but if you keep using the water then it doesn't really matter how big the tub is. (Really, you only need a few points in it to make a difference enough to balance off the lack of radiant insignias and such, like 3-4 energy storage for +9-12 energy.) If focus swapping wasn't a part of the entire picture it would be different.
Strength is a bad attribute when you don't use skills because 16% armor penetration on attack skills isn't going to affect your damage very much (considering all your other attributes are capped at 15 if you have 16 strength s and only use 2 attribute lines). It is the same reason why penetrating chop is not used instead of Executioner's strike, Galrath Slash, or Dismember. There's a reason why some warriors forgo the entire attribute line and just put 3 strength when not using strength skills.
The Ritualist's primary attribute boils down to the "sucks" category. Note how most of the professions have a primary attribute that affects the majority of their skills. Monk Divine Favor for example, DEFINES the monk.
Spawning Power only defines the spirit ritualist and right now Spawning Power only affects two extremely specific things when you don't use the handful of useful skills in the line:
-Spirits (only Ritualists and Rangers have these)
-Minions (only Necromancers)
and that goes down to
-Spirits
when you consider that you can't be an effective MM without a high Death Magic. You can only be a Rt/N minion-bomber since higher death magic means higher level minions (more damage and armor for your minions, as well as MORE minions themselves).
P.S. why isn't sight beyond sight in channeling?
ArKaiN
Quote:
Originally Posted by LifeInfusion
P.S. why isn't sight beyond sight in channeling?
Because having warriors and sins almost immune to blind is a bad thing?
Bargamer
Quote:
Originally Posted by LifeInfusion
The Ritualist's primary attribute boils down to the "sucks" category. Note how most of the professions have a primary attribute that affects the majority of their skills. Monk Divine Favor for example, DEFINES the monk.
Spawning Power only defines the spirit ritualist and right now Spawning Power only affects two extremely specific things when you don't use the handful of useful skills in the line:
-Spirits (only Ritualists and Rangers have these)
-Minions (only Necromancers)
and that goes down to
-Spirits
when you consider that you can't be an effective MM without a high Death Magic. You can only be a Rt/N minion-bomber since higher death magic means higher level minions (more damage and armor for your minions, as well as MORE minions themselves). So the way I read your post is, Spawning Power should be an Attribute that you can just dump points into, and not take any skills from. Um, yeah right. What about WITH skills? And since you chose to single out Rit/N Minion Bombers, let me give you 4 skills from my skill bar, all from Spawning Power: Boon of Creation, Explosive Growth, Spirit's Gift, and Reclaim Essence. All awesome skills, that have synergy with each other, and absolutely pwn face in PVE. (But not Hard Mode, since even pre-nerf Necro-main MMs would have trouble with Hard Mode, me thinks, much less my humble hybrid build.)
Could Spawning Power be improved? Maybe. Were some nerfs too harsh? Maybe. Is Spawning Power useful for those of us that actually USE it? Yes! If you don't like Spawning Power, or even Rits, then guess what? Play as something else.
Spawning Power only defines the spirit ritualist and right now Spawning Power only affects two extremely specific things when you don't use the handful of useful skills in the line:
-Spirits (only Ritualists and Rangers have these)
-Minions (only Necromancers)
and that goes down to
-Spirits
when you consider that you can't be an effective MM without a high Death Magic. You can only be a Rt/N minion-bomber since higher death magic means higher level minions (more damage and armor for your minions, as well as MORE minions themselves). So the way I read your post is, Spawning Power should be an Attribute that you can just dump points into, and not take any skills from. Um, yeah right. What about WITH skills? And since you chose to single out Rit/N Minion Bombers, let me give you 4 skills from my skill bar, all from Spawning Power: Boon of Creation, Explosive Growth, Spirit's Gift, and Reclaim Essence. All awesome skills, that have synergy with each other, and absolutely pwn face in PVE. (But not Hard Mode, since even pre-nerf Necro-main MMs would have trouble with Hard Mode, me thinks, much less my humble hybrid build.)
Could Spawning Power be improved? Maybe. Were some nerfs too harsh? Maybe. Is Spawning Power useful for those of us that actually USE it? Yes! If you don't like Spawning Power, or even Rits, then guess what? Play as something else.
ArKaiN
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bargamer
So the way I read your post is, Spawning Power should be an Attribute that you can just dump points into, and not take any skills from. Um, yeah right. What about WITH skills? And since you chose to single out Rit/N Minion Bombers, let me give you 4 skills from my skill bar, all from Spawning Power: Boon of Creation, Explosive Growth, Spirit's Gift, and Reclaim Essence. All awesome skills, that have synergy with each other, and absolutely pwn face in PVE. (But not Hard Mode, since even pre-nerf Necro-main MMs would have trouble with Hard Mode, me thinks, much less my humble hybrid build.)
Could Spawning Power be improved? Maybe. Were some nerfs too harsh? Maybe. Is Spawning Power useful for those of us that actually USE it? Yes! If you don't like Spawning Power, or even Rits, then guess what? Play as something else. Wow, overreaction FTL.
Playing as a rit primary for me is worth it for one reason alone: Runes. 16 resto for VwK in farming, 16 Commu for spirit bombing, 16 Spawning for dumbass fun Spirit Strength builds.
Yes, one *single* build uses two or more skills from spawning. Doom is also usable when spirit bombing. Does that make it a "useful attribute"? I say no. IMO, make spawning like Lightbringer for spawnees: each point adds +1 damage reduction(or 1 every 3, whatever) and some damage. Then it's useable.
Could Spawning Power be improved? Maybe. Were some nerfs too harsh? Maybe. Is Spawning Power useful for those of us that actually USE it? Yes! If you don't like Spawning Power, or even Rits, then guess what? Play as something else. Wow, overreaction FTL.
Playing as a rit primary for me is worth it for one reason alone: Runes. 16 resto for VwK in farming, 16 Commu for spirit bombing, 16 Spawning for dumbass fun Spirit Strength builds.
Yes, one *single* build uses two or more skills from spawning. Doom is also usable when spirit bombing. Does that make it a "useful attribute"? I say no. IMO, make spawning like Lightbringer for spawnees: each point adds +1 damage reduction(or 1 every 3, whatever) and some damage. Then it's useable.
Pick Me
Quote:
Originally Posted by LifeInfusion
Rocks without skills from attribute
Expertise- Hands down the best primary attribute since it affects all ranger skills.
Divine Favor - without this, you might as well run a e/mo or rt/mo or me/mo or n/mo.
Critical strikes - energy gain on criticals + high critical chance = no loss of energy (Critical barrager is an example)
Leadership - energy gain on shouts/chants means you have an insane energy engine with go for the eyes and other 4-6 adrenaline shouts (especially with IAS)
Mysticism - like Soul reaping, gives energy inflow and negligible health gain. Unlike soul reaping, it gives it when enchantments end. Therefore, it is perfect for maintaining things with low energy costs. Also, some of the skills really augment the Dervish's capabilities.
Leadership - no skills from Leadership means you shout and chant and echo into battle, but without others to hear your inspirational words, like "go for the eyes", your spear cost will dwendle your energy to 0 quickly. Not very good to me.
Quote: Originally Posted by LifeInfusion Marginal without skills from attribute
Soul Reaping- This is the opposite of energy storage. Energy storage gives a bigger pool, this gives a bigger inflow of energy in PVE areas. It isn't all that useful in PvP (compared to PvE) when running a team that doesn't score fast kills. You don't need a whole lot of it, 5-6 is enough for a regular Necro that isn't a MM.
Fast Casting - more so for pvp and PvE hard mode, but Fast casting is useful even without any of the skills in it (too bad there is diminishing returns). affecting all spells means it effectively uses all caster spells quicker, which may not be useful in all PVE situations but certainly in PVP. Soul Reaping is good without skills, even with the nerf. It should be up with Rocks.
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you still would need points in channeling for that to work. Might as well run Plague touch or Mending touch.|
Originally Posted by LifeInfusion
Sucks without skills from attribute
Energy storage is a bad attribute if you aren't running exhaustion and 15-25 energy skills because it doesn't have any use for spam. Energy storage just acts as a bucket of energy, with a set regeneration. It would be like turning on the faucet with a bigger tub to fill. Once the tub fills then you need a bigger tub, but if you keep using the water then it doesn't really matter how big the tub is. (Really, you only need a few points in it to make a difference enough to balance off the lack of radiant insignias and such, like 3-4 energy storage for +9-12 energy.) If focus swapping wasn't a part of the entire picture it would be different. Strength is a bad attribute when you don't use skills because 16% armor penetration on attack skills isn't going to affect your damage very much (considering all your other attributes are capped at 15 if you have 16 strength s and only use 2 attribute lines). It is the same reason why penetrating chop is not used instead of Executioner's strike, Galrath Slash, or Dismember. There's a reason why some warriors forgo the entire attribute line and just put 3 strength when not using strength skills. The Ritualist's primary attribute boils down to the "sucks" category. Note how most of the professions have a primary attribute that affects the majority of their skills. Monk Divine Favor for example, DEFINES the monk. Spawning Power only defines the spirit ritualist and right now Spawning Power only affects two extremely specific things when you don't use the handful of useful skills in the line: -Spirits (only Ritualists and Rangers have these) -Minions (only Necromancers) and that goes down to -Spirits when you consider that you can't be an effective MM without a high Death Magic. You can only be a Rt/N minion-bomber since higher death magic means higher level minions (more damage and armor for your minions, as well as MORE minions themselves). P.S. why isn't sight beyond sight in channeling? Strength - used by Hammer Warriors, why would they really need tactics? Energy Storage - Mind Burn/Mind Shock/Mind Freeze, no one else will have more energy than an Elementalist with maxed ES. Twice the damage. Spam healing because you don't have DF. Casting high energy spells, because others can't without help. Spawning - links to every attribute in the Ritualist's arsenal. Each attribute has a spirit or more in it. Yes, Ranger spirits do not health degen nor lose energy for meerly existing, but if you use channelling, you can use the spirits that are cheap and use them to do damage via some channeling spells. So it isn't exactly the worst of all. I think it is better than Strength. What is it that you would like to see done to Spawning? I mean it shouldn't affect spells (except for maybe weapon spells and items - after all they are created out of thin air).
LifeInfusion
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Originally Posted by ArKaiN
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Could Spawning Power be improved? Maybe. Were some nerfs too harsh? Maybe. Is Spawning Power useful for those of us that actually USE it? Yes! If you don't like Spawning Power, or even Rits, then guess what? Play as something else. My rhetorical question is: Why not have Spawning power affect the majority of the ritualist skills? Right now it is the MAIN reason why /Rt's are more attractive in PvP when you aren't running spirits.
If you look at say Soul reaping or Expertise, you don't need one skill from there and it still is a good attribute.
Your skill bar has no spirits, but it has minions. I'm talking about when you are without spirits, there are few nonelite options that are useful. Besides, minionbombing doesn't rely on minions doing damage by attacking (the advantage of using higher level minions is more damage and armor), it relies on them exploding.
BTW, I don't mean to single out Rt/N minionbombers, it is just that they are only good for just that: creating and blowing minions up.
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Originally Posted by Pick Me
Critical Strike is totally and utterly useless using Shadow Arts. Not useful in Deadly Arts either. Thus does not work well with 2/3 of the Assassin line if you don't have skills in Critical Strike. Also how high is Critical Strike chance with no skills from Critical Strike? I mean without Critical Eye how high is it?
Leadership - no skills from Leadership means you shout and chant and echo into battle, but without others to hear your inspirational words, like "go for the eyes", your spear cost will dwendle your energy to 0 quickly. Not very good to me. Soul Reaping is good without skills, even with the nerf. It should be up with Rocks. Strength - used by Hammer Warriors, why would they really need tactics? Energy Storage - Mind Burn/Mind Shock/Mind Freeze, no one else will have more energy than an Elementalist with maxed ES. Twice the damage. Spam healing because you don't have DF. Casting high energy spells, because others can't without help. Spawning - links to every attribute in the Ritualist's arsenal. Each attribute has a spirit or more in it. Yes, Ranger spirits do not health degen nor lose energy for meerly existing, but if you use channelling, you can use the spirits that are cheap and use them to do damage via some channeling spells. So it isn't exactly the worst of all. I think it is better than Strength. What is it that you would like to see done to Spawning? I mean it shouldn't affect spells (except for maybe weapon spells and items - after all they are created out of thin air). I thought about labeling Critical strikes mediocre. But an assassin without critical strikes at 8+ has a hard time with energy and you might as well run a R/A. If you talk about the additional +1% critical hit percentage per rank, it is pointless because that would equate CS to strength. Not to mention, with critical strike/wild blow/malicious strike it really gives back energy guaranteed. Like Critical Strikes, Leadership is what sets the energy of a Paragon from a Warrior. Leadership gives energy back, so that means even if you use say a 10 energy shout, there is return on investment. Obviously, Leadership is not that great without party members in range. They aren't solo-ers by nature. Soul Reaping is good, but if things don't die or there aren't very many things dieing, it is almost useless. PvE wise, it is top notch. When you factor in how fast things die in PvP with prot monks on either side, there is a big difference in energy gain. Strength is used by hammer warriors for the speed boosts and Bull's strike, not because of the pitiful armor penetration. Besides, you can function without strength (see R/W's with hammers) and for a short time warriors used Tactics' Steady Stance + Fear Me. Strength skills shine in PVE also: Flail; Charging strike; Bulls' charge; Battle rage; enraging charge; Lion's comfort; Signet of stamina for running; etc. My point is strength without skills is not pivotal. Who uses Mind skills? They were buffed a few times and they still don't see much use. The reason why you can spam Heal Parties is Ether prodigy/Glyph of Lesser energy/Glyph of energy unless you are talking about a front loaded heal party spamfest that ends once your energy is gone. Granted only Ether prodigy needs significant Energy storage, glyphs need minimal or no investment. Fast cast mesmer/elementalists were possible because of energy management even with a pool a quarter or half the size of the elementalist primary. This highlights Elemental and Fire/Air/Water/Earth attunements and not the Energy storage itself. I'd like to see Spawning Power do more for the ritualist that doesn't use spirits. Not every build uses spirits and even those that do do not necessarily gain much from +HP (attack spirits for example benefit more from +level that gives higher damage than +HP). Throwing some ideas out: 5% shorter recharge per 3 ranks on ritualist spirits,item spells but not spells. 10% faster spirit attack speed per every 5 ranks weapon/item spells last 5% longer per 3 ranks The fundamental problem with more HP on spirits is if you don't have anything that doesn't suck HP from it, the HP is for naught. Ex. in Hard mode, if the spirit gets targetted it will get smacked once or twice and die regardless of if you have 1 spawning or 16 spawning. ================================================== ======== Now that I think about it, I overrated Leadership and Mysticism a little, but that is because the skills in those lines are rather useful. Pick Me
I only used Mind spells because I didn't have SF until recently.
 The idea's for Spawning revolving around spirits is because that is what you do, spawn spirits (like laying egges, you stand there and out comes a spirit). Again, you rely on Rits only having spirits for HP, so Minions still count though. As a Rit/x, yeah, I understand what you are saying, and I agree, some of the primary attributes are basically worthless on their own, but they do fit in the scheme of the profession. Warriors are strength related. Rangers are efficient (so it would stand to reason for their reduction of skill, not spell, energy cost), Necromancers are stealer of souls, Paragons are motivational speakers (the more they think they are in charge), etc. Well, honestly, even if the primary attribute is useless to people, the skills in that attribute make it worthwhile to invest in.
Servant of Kali
Spawning is the WORSE primary attribute. Ever.
Leadership is badly designed attributed (should not work depending on the number of teammates around because this game has non 8-player modes). But Spawning is utter thrash, unless you want to have a bit of fun with skills such as Spirit's Strenght (and btw, this is only fun build, I'd take Lyssa avatar with daggers instead, any day, and i tried both).
KlutzySpy
its updated
+2% duration of weaponspells per rank
pnumm
The +2% should be especially effective for spirits strength rits, so they won't need to renew their weapon spell as often.
KlutzySpy
and weapon of wardig will get a nice (needed) time boost
Pick Me
Still sucks for those who don't use weapon spells or spirits.
Maybe next time Channellers and spell healers will get a boost, or maybe not. Hmmm... balancing issues about weapon spells may come too.
KlutzySpy
on a sidenote, divine favor only helps healing spells :P
LifeInfusion
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Originally Posted by KlutzySpy
on a sidenote, divine favor only helps healing spells :P
No, they work on all spells from the monk profession. Try it with protection prayers, smiting prayers, or divine favor spells.
KlutzySpy
what i ment is all divine favor does is heal, it doesnt increase dmg of all smiting prayers etc..
 spawning does more now :P
Dr Strangelove
2 percent really isn't that much, around a 20% increase for most rits. It's nice, but 2 extra seconds on weapon of warding is hardly game breaking. As for vital weapon, it lasts damn near forever anyway, who cares if it lasts 70 something seconds instead of 60? It's still going to be up all the time.
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