Since this can't be discussed in the PvP Skill thread.
Is limiting the no. of Paragons in a team the only solution? That is, 1 or 2 Paragons max. As for secondaries i don't know, but this is mainly about the primaries.
I'm pretty sure many people have noticed how bad Paragons are becoming in PvE due the extreme and frequent nerfs they're receiving because of PvP. Truth is they're losing alot of effectiveness in PvP too because of teams of 4+ Paragons spamming chants leading to an intricate network of buffs that make things very powering. Single Paragons are nearly useless now.
So is this the only way of saving the Paragon? The change can be explained since the Paragon is a leader and having 4 different leaders doesn't quite make sense. This would completely stop builds like Paraway. But it would save the Paragons entire skill list.
I mean look at Incoming... originally lasted 7(?) seconds max. Been nerfed to 3 max. Its become effectively useless because of multiple Paragons chaining it.
The majority of the Motivation line? Some of these nerfs may have been needed anyway, the Restoration ones are reasonably strong, but they're still not direct heals.
Spear Mastery. Several of these have been nerfed because of the reasonable DPS the Para gets (from the extremely unfair IAS, Agressive Refrain, this skill really isn't balanced if compared to every other IAS in the game) and the spiking ability they have.
Command is also been nerfed bit by bit.
The Echos are almost useless to single paragons because of changes due to abuse in PvP.
So is this really the only solution to saving the Paragon before they get nerfed into oblivion? It may be drastic... but the nerfs have got to stop somewhere.
No discussions of changes to individual skills please, just this or other global changes that will save the Para from the nerfbat.
Limit the no. of Paragons in a team?
Evilsod
Puebert
/notsigned
There are a few ways to solve the Paragon problem.
This is not one of them.
There are a few ways to solve the Paragon problem.
This is not one of them.
Replicant
/notsigned
if you limit the amount of Paragons all other classes would have to go through the same limit.
Sadly PvP determines stuff happening in PvE, it's how Anet decided to nerf stuff in the past, and they'll continue to do so...
if you limit the amount of Paragons all other classes would have to go through the same limit.
Sadly PvP determines stuff happening in PvE, it's how Anet decided to nerf stuff in the past, and they'll continue to do so...
GloryFox
/notsigned
Never had an issue joining a team (PUG) as a paragon unless it was an elite mission. Frankly Paragons still rock!
Never had an issue joining a team (PUG) as a paragon unless it was an elite mission. Frankly Paragons still rock!
God Apprentice
If you implement something like that you have 2 implement that for every class.
/notsigned
/notsigned
OhCrapLions
Epic Fail. Not only would this have to cap other classes out of fairness, this would actually nerf organized teamwork.
/notsigned
Spike or Silence them.
/notsigned
Spike or Silence them.
JeniM
lol The Deep with 2 W tanks 2 Eles 2 Necro 2 Monks and .... need 4 more randoms
/notsigned
/notsigned
ValaOfTheFens
/notsigned
What made you come to the conclusion that limiting the number of Paragons in a party would save them? People would just create another degenerate build a lesser number of Paragons required and we'd be in the same place.
What made you come to the conclusion that limiting the number of Paragons in a party would save them? People would just create another degenerate build a lesser number of Paragons required and we'd be in the same place.
tenshi_strife
yea um no but i think that has been said.... you wanna know how to help paragons make more skills that stop shouts and chants..... easy as that cause then shouts are like enchantments they are good but can be stopped.... yup there it is
and as far as op goes..... go kill yourself now... limits = i quit gw.
and as far as op goes..... go kill yourself now... limits = i quit gw.
clawofcrimson
Why not make the limit effect HA and GVG only...
only X number of any class allowed in a party... that would fix several gimmick builds:
~it would have fixed Iway
~paraway
~necroway
~etc.. ect... etc...
Leave the rest of the game as is... but give the 'balance' people what they want ...where they want.... in organized pvp.
only X number of any class allowed in a party... that would fix several gimmick builds:
~it would have fixed Iway
~paraway
~necroway
~etc.. ect... etc...
Leave the rest of the game as is... but give the 'balance' people what they want ...where they want.... in organized pvp.
tenshi_strife
because claw you basically are saying kill strategy all together in Ha and GvG so that only balanced is possible and no more thinking of good builds that are fun... so pvp would turn into pve and all pvp players would quit GW right then and there... i know i would
yea no that is still a horrible idea. like i always say think about what your saying think.
yea no that is still a horrible idea. like i always say think about what your saying think.
clawofcrimson
you call all para, (warrior, necro, etc...) teams good strategy???
qwe4rty
I kinda like the prospect of gimmicks. I prefer playing balanced myself, but gimmicks do add a certain amount of spice.
tenshi_strife
to claw, yes i do to some extent..... also i have many builds where i need 3 of something.... not a whole team but 3.... and your idea would completely kill that...
lyra_song
Hows this?
Idea:Diminishing return on effects in multiple paragon parties.
Basically.....The more Paragon primaries in a party, the less effective (duration and amount heal/protected/etc) the effects of shouts/chants/echos on those paragons and the other party members
1 Paragon in party:
Paragon and Party gets 100% effect
2 Paragons in party:
The Paragon get 100% effect.
THe other paragon gets only 85% effect from Paragon 1.
3 Paragons in party:
The Paragon get 100% effect.
The other 2 paragons gain only 65% effect from Paragon 1
4 Paragons in party:
The Paragon get 100% effect.
The other 3 paragons gain only 30% effect from paragon 1
and so on and so forth.
-----
Having more than 2 paragons would be detrimental since its less and less effective.
edit: Made it more bold...
Idea:Diminishing return on effects in multiple paragon parties.
Basically.....The more Paragon primaries in a party, the less effective (duration and amount heal/protected/etc) the effects of shouts/chants/echos on those paragons and the other party members
1 Paragon in party:
Paragon and Party gets 100% effect
2 Paragons in party:
The Paragon get 100% effect.
THe other paragon gets only 85% effect from Paragon 1.
3 Paragons in party:
The Paragon get 100% effect.
The other 2 paragons gain only 65% effect from Paragon 1
4 Paragons in party:
The Paragon get 100% effect.
The other 3 paragons gain only 30% effect from paragon 1
and so on and so forth.
-----
Having more than 2 paragons would be detrimental since its less and less effective.
edit: Made it more bold...
clawofcrimson
@qwe4ty
actually gimmick builds promote laziness and frustration with 'no skill' builds in a competetive pvp enviroment.... which anet is always constantly trying to eliminate.
....and considering the alternative .....(nerfing the class to oblivion)... I think it would be a better option... gimmick builds will always be around... but they always get adjusted/nerfed...
the paragon class (in light of recent tournies) will most likely receive another nerf in the near future. Making it difficult for people (like me) to continue to promote usage in all aspects of the game.
The paragon is facing a problem in both realms pve..and pvp... and the only thing that makes them overpowered is the fact that they are completely overpowered when there are more than 2 or 3+ on a team....
no one would be complaining about their armour, dps, or shouts if they only had to deal with one per team ....
actually gimmick builds promote laziness and frustration with 'no skill' builds in a competetive pvp enviroment.... which anet is always constantly trying to eliminate.
....and considering the alternative .....(nerfing the class to oblivion)... I think it would be a better option... gimmick builds will always be around... but they always get adjusted/nerfed...
the paragon class (in light of recent tournies) will most likely receive another nerf in the near future. Making it difficult for people (like me) to continue to promote usage in all aspects of the game.
The paragon is facing a problem in both realms pve..and pvp... and the only thing that makes them overpowered is the fact that they are completely overpowered when there are more than 2 or 3+ on a team....
no one would be complaining about their armour, dps, or shouts if they only had to deal with one per team ....
Dr Strangelove
The idea for limiting classes has come up several times in the past, and it's still lame. Fix the skills that are causing the imbalance, don't ignore it and place arbritrary restrictions on the game.
Besides, if you limit it like that then we'll just get people running secondary paragon exploiting the same broken mechanics.
Besides, if you limit it like that then we'll just get people running secondary paragon exploiting the same broken mechanics.
thedeadwalk!
/notsigned
Seems people are taking a too complicated a look at dealing with the class. The problem isn't that there's too many paragons or that they're, really, too powerful. The main area of concern is their strong involvement in a field that has extremely little resistance: shouts and chants.
Vocal Minority and Ulcerous Lungs are on the right track but they do nothing to address removing them. Everything else in the game can be removed but not shouts and chants. Throw in some more skills for necromancers, smite monks, mesmers, hell, maybe some tactical warriors and deadly arts sins. Maybe even an air ele can make a sonic boom clearing the air of all shouts and chants.
Other skills that have been nerfed also have the weakness to be removed or at least some kind of available resistance somewhere. Give the classes the means to fight paragons and we can better ensure continued enjoyment of a rather ingenious class.
Seems people are taking a too complicated a look at dealing with the class. The problem isn't that there's too many paragons or that they're, really, too powerful. The main area of concern is their strong involvement in a field that has extremely little resistance: shouts and chants.
Vocal Minority and Ulcerous Lungs are on the right track but they do nothing to address removing them. Everything else in the game can be removed but not shouts and chants. Throw in some more skills for necromancers, smite monks, mesmers, hell, maybe some tactical warriors and deadly arts sins. Maybe even an air ele can make a sonic boom clearing the air of all shouts and chants.
Other skills that have been nerfed also have the weakness to be removed or at least some kind of available resistance somewhere. Give the classes the means to fight paragons and we can better ensure continued enjoyment of a rather ingenious class.
MithranArkanere
The only problems with-all-same-class is that they are 'specialty-spikes'. IF you bring a balanced group, you can't fight them all.
The solution would be profession synergy.
Something each class gives to other, but not those of the same profession.
The solution would be profession synergy.
Something each class gives to other, but not those of the same profession.
Lydz
/notsigned
I can see it now: Limit the number of eles in a team! Too much damage! OR No more than 2 monks please! Too much healing!
I'm sorry but that's just pointless. There are many other ways to deal with problems like this.
I can see it now: Limit the number of eles in a team! Too much damage! OR No more than 2 monks please! Too much healing!
I'm sorry but that's just pointless. There are many other ways to deal with problems like this.
shirosae
Isn't half of the PvP problems with Paragon due to how ridiculous some Finales get with mass shouting?
If that is the case (it might be, i don't PvP much, and other people here have far greater insight than I), wouldn't it be easier to Spirit Bond the Finales in question? If a single Paragon and a Warrior or whatever with a few shouts can keep up Finales for full duration, but a full team of shouting Paragons wear them out in a few seconds, wouldn't that balance things?
Perhaps adding a timer, Soul Reaping-like to Finales?
I suppose that might damage the all Paragon PvE teams, maybe (i don't know the build off the top of my head). Unless some PvP-worthless skills were buffed to provide alternatives?
I don't think limiting the number of professions in any group is the way to go.
If that is the case (it might be, i don't PvP much, and other people here have far greater insight than I), wouldn't it be easier to Spirit Bond the Finales in question? If a single Paragon and a Warrior or whatever with a few shouts can keep up Finales for full duration, but a full team of shouting Paragons wear them out in a few seconds, wouldn't that balance things?
Perhaps adding a timer, Soul Reaping-like to Finales?
I suppose that might damage the all Paragon PvE teams, maybe (i don't know the build off the top of my head). Unless some PvP-worthless skills were buffed to provide alternatives?
I don't think limiting the number of professions in any group is the way to go.
Xunlai Agent Smith
/notsigned
Paragon teams are broke but this cannot be the answer
Paragon teams are broke but this cannot be the answer
Evilsod
Quote:
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Originally Posted by tenshi_strife
because claw you basically are saying kill strategy all together in Ha and GvG so that only balanced is possible and no more thinking of good builds that are fun... so pvp would turn into pve and all pvp players would quit GW right then and there... i know i would
yea no that is still a horrible idea. like i always say think about what your saying think. |
Why did i get the feeling half the comments would be 'zomg nerf all classes' comments. Show me a class that is having its entire skill list reworked to avoid builds that sync when you have 4+ of them? Searing Flames is the only skill i can think of and that is a single skill, not an entire profession.
Quote:
| Fix the skills that are causing the imbalance, don't ignore it and place arbritrary restrictions on the game. |
Wildi
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by lyra_song
Hows this?
Idea:Diminishing return on effects in multiple paragon parties. Basically.....The more Paragon primaries in a party, the less effective (duration and amount heal/protected/etc) the effects of shouts/chants/echos on those paragons and the other party members 1 Paragon in party: Paragon and Party gets 100% effect 2 Paragons in party: The Paragon get 100% effect. THe other paragon gets only 85% effect from Paragon 1. 3 Paragons in party: The Paragon get 100% effect. The other 2 paragons gain only 65% effect from Paragon 1 4 Paragons in party: The Paragon get 100% effect. The other 3 paragons gain only 30% effect from paragon 1 and so on and so forth. |
Dr.Agon
I don't think this would work, they would just go secondary para and use the same principle. Probably the best idea I've seen in this thread is being able to remove shouts and chants, though I don't see Anet adding skills before GWEN, so I don't think thats going t happen soon.
But a few of you are missing the point of his post, he wants to save the paragon class, not keep them out because he can't kill them in HA.
But a few of you are missing the point of his post, he wants to save the paragon class, not keep them out because he can't kill them in HA.
tenshi_strife
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Evilsod
You do realise that those 'stratagies' are causing the Paragon to have its entire skilllist nerfed into oblivion right?
|
i say add effects like a few concept skills i suggested
Quote:
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Originally Posted by tenshi_strife
Sonic Boom(Air Magic)
spell 5E, 1 cast, 20 recharge. Target foe and all other foes in earshot take 5...25 damage and are unaffected by shouts and chants for 5...20 seconds. *comments: ok this on is easy to figure out, you make loud bang noise which hurts their ears and temporarly deafens you ^^* Deafening Battle Roar(command) Shout 5E, 60 recharge all allies in earshot attack 5...25% faster and move 5...25% faster for 5...20 seconds but are unaffected by shouts and chants for 30...15 seconds. *comments: kinda self explanatory ^^* |
Slotter
This will never happen. Stupid idea....
Evilsod
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by tenshi_strife
that is why what i suggested before is smart. MAKE A WAY TO STOP SHOUTS AND CHANTS then paragons wont be nerfed cause then they aint broken.
i say add effects like a few concept skills i suggested |
Quote:
| i know one is a paragon skill itself but i think we just need a new condition deafened. with this condition you are unaffected by shouts and chants.... this is good and bad, bad is obvious but good is that fear me and such dont effect you either lol. but many conditons have a good and bad like deep wound is great for 55ers and blind is good for sandsharders. |
The only thing they can do is do something to the paragon itself. Be it preventing too many, introducing deactivations on skills or decreasing there effectiveness with multiple paragons. Adding more counters wouldn't stop the skills been abused, it would just make things stale.
tenshi_strife
hum last time i checked spikes bring enchant removal to SPECIFICALLY TARGET PROT MONKS and no one complains, how is this in any way differnt at all.
also the condition is not to specific.... hum blind only stops attacks, thats a bit specific, daze only stops SPELL casts, also specific. hell deep wound only stops heals. cause you gotta relize not only paragons use shouts, so do warriors and rangers *of course ranger shouts affect pets but still* so its not too specific.
also the condition is not to specific.... hum blind only stops attacks, thats a bit specific, daze only stops SPELL casts, also specific. hell deep wound only stops heals. cause you gotta relize not only paragons use shouts, so do warriors and rangers *of course ranger shouts affect pets but still* so its not too specific.
Evilsod
I knew your reply would be a smart arsed dig at 'specific' involving Blind and Dazed. Last i checked Blind affected all 4 attack based professions and Dazed affected the 8 professions that rely on spells, hexes and enchantments. Such a condition would effect... the Paragon... and a few Warrior skills.
KebabVan
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Replicant
/notsigned
if you limit the amount of Paragons all other classes would have to go through the same limit. |
The problem with paragons is completely different to everything else. With other gimmick builds such as 5 searing flames, it's a skill that is the problem, not the whole elementalist class.
IMO they should do the same thing they did to soul reaping to nerf the 8 n/rt build. There is a precedent for changing primary attribute now - soul reaping and critical strikes have both recently been changed.
-----------------------------------
2 possibilities:
1. Change leadership so that it only gives energy once every 10 seconds or something. This means you can still carry lotsa shouts and chants but you will run outa energy pretty quick if you spam them. One paragon with 2 chants and a shout isnt going to be affected much, but the added affect of a whole team having to use their shouts/chants wisely will be.
2. No energy is gained for using a chant if already under the effects of a chant and no energy gained from a shout if under the effect of another shout. This would kill it harder than the first one. Would mean the only effective thing is to have 1 paragon with about 3 different shouts/chants. Anymore than 1 and they are going to have to have very few shouts and chants if they want energy.
---------------------------------
tenshi_strife
yes but i see you did not try to debate my statement that people already bring skills that disable certain builds or classes, so even if they didn't add that condition they could still add skills that did that effect. it would solve the problem and you know it, cause enchants arnt being nerfed and you know why.... its cause they can be stopped..... thats it.
Mr_Cynical
/signed
If it means that the Paragon nerfs (ridiculously overdone, even by Anet's standards) get reversed, I'm all for it.
If it means that the Paragon nerfs (ridiculously overdone, even by Anet's standards) get reversed, I'm all for it.
tenshi_strife
Quote:
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Originally Posted by KebabVan
Why? several people said it but why must limiting paragons to one per team mean that everything else has to be limited to? Anet make the rules, its not as if theres some general kind of divine law that says you do it to one you do it to all. In Guild Wars - Anet is God. Theres even a valid in game explanation - paragons are meant to be leaders, how does having 5 leaders leading 3 monks represent this?
The problem with paragons is completely different to everything else. With other gimmick builds such as 5 searing flames, it's a skill that is the problem, not the whole elementalist class. IMO they should do the same thing they did to soul reaping to nerf the 8 n/rt build. There is a precedent for changing primary attribute now - soul reaping and critical strikes have both recently been changed. ----------------------------------- 2 possibilities: 1. Change leadership so that it only gives energy once every 10 seconds or something. This means you can still carry lotsa shouts and chants but you will run outa energy pretty quick if you spam them. One paragon with 2 chants and a shout isnt going to be affected much, but the added affect of a whole team having to use their shouts/chants wisely will be. 2. No energy is gained for using a chant if already under the effects of a chant and no energy gained from a shout if under the effect of another shout. This would kill it harder than the first one. Would mean the only effective thing is to have 1 paragon with about 3 different shouts/chants. Anymore than 1 and they are going to have to have very few shouts and chants if they want energy. --------------------------------- |
no no no your idea is even WORSE then op, cause pve paragons would FURTHER suffer and the point of this topic is to fix them NOT DESTROY THEM.
and also your thoughts on the paragon being the only one needed to be limited.... hum anet may be god but if they just limit paragons the paragons will go up in an uproar and if they dont restrict the others too then all the paragons, then to stop this anet would need to limit the others classes too and then EVEN MORE people will get up and leave gw and that is something we want to avoid at all costs.
no the correct solution is not something drastic but something simple, simple yet effective....
KebabVan
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lydz
/notsigned
I can see it now: Limit the number of eles in a team! Too much damage! OR No more than 2 monks please! Too much healing! I'm sorry but that's just pointless. There are many other ways to deal with problems like this. |
On the other hand 5 paragons have both tons of damage AND tons of defense which is what makes it so hard to beat. Teams can split off 3/4 attackers but the para team can keep the flagger back and send back a monk and even with 1 monk only, the main team wont take any deaths due to the huge defense. They kill the enemy lord before the enemy split can even kill the knights.
It was the same for rit spike and the n/rt sb/ri spike. Both had huge amounts of both defense and attack which meant not even splitting would damage their ability to win. Both of those got nerfed.
KebabVan
Quote:
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Originally Posted by tenshi_strife
so what your is that the horrible travesty against necs should be REPEATED.
no no no your idea is even WORSE then op, cause pve paragons would FURTHER suffer and the point of this topic is to fix them NOT DESTROY THEM. and also your thoughts on the paragon being the only one needed to be limited.... hum anet may be god but if they just limit paragons the paragons will go up in an uproar and if they dont restrict the others too then all the paragons, then to stop this anet would need to limit the others classes too and then EVEN MORE people will get up and leave gw and that is something we want to avoid at all costs. no the correct solution is not something drastic but something simple, simple yet effective.... |
Secondly how was it a traversty to the necros? They are still just as good in pve, its not like they counted on 2+ deaths per 5 seconds to be good. They are also still as good in PvP, just look at one of the most common builds that has been around for last couple of months in GvG- 2 melee, 1 mes, 1 NECRO, 1 ranger, 2 monks, runner.
You can still run more than one paragon, PvE or PvP. They just have to synergise the number of energy shouts/chants they use and the number of them which are adren and which are energy. I mean you could take 3 paragons in focussed on dps but with a shout or chant or 2 each in PvE and that's fine.
tenshi_strife
hum really all monks have no damage.... hum i seems to remember a certain spike that hurts hum oh yea there is like 6!!!
here is a list of ow
[skill]signet of mystic wrath[/skill]ow
[skill]signet of judgment[/skill]+[skill]holy strike[/skill] yup ow
[skill]balthazar's aura[/skill] yup ow
[skill]air of enchantment[/skill]+[skill]zealot's fire[/skill]+[skill]reversal of fortune[/skill] still ow
now please check your facts
here is a list of ow
[skill]signet of mystic wrath[/skill]ow
[skill]signet of judgment[/skill]+[skill]holy strike[/skill] yup ow
[skill]balthazar's aura[/skill] yup ow
[skill]air of enchantment[/skill]+[skill]zealot's fire[/skill]+[skill]reversal of fortune[/skill] still ow
now please check your facts
KebabVan
Quote:
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Originally Posted by tenshi_strife
hum really all monks have no damage.... hum i seems to remember a certain spike that hurts hum oh yea there is like 6!!!
here is a list of ow [skill]signet of mystic wrath[/skill]ow [skill]signet of judgment[/skill]+[skill]soulstone strike[/skill] yup ow [skill]balthazars aura[/skill] yup ow [skill]air of enchantment[/skill]+[skill]zealous fire[/skill]+[skill]reversal of fortune[/skill] still ow now please check your facts |
tenshi_strife
Quote:
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Originally Posted by KebabVan
If you read what i posted you will see that i said if either eles or monks try and both do damage and go defensive they end up doing neither to an overpowering degree. Obviously you can have smite monks to do damage but then they do barely any healing. You can have eles all secondary monk with tons of earth wards and earth armour + heal party/aegis etc but they wouldnt be doing any damage would they. You completely missed the point.
|
Evilsod
This thread has nothing to do with whether monks can smite of not...