This is a suggestion and discussion that was given from a PvPer for PvE - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

manitoba1073

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2006

ManitobaShipyards Refit and Repair Station

(SFC)Star Fleet Command,(TDE)The Daggerfall elite,(SOoM)Secret order of Magi

02 Jun 2007 at 08:03 - 1

I was given a suggestion and well Im passing it on to you guys here to discuss.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

This post is probably going to scream "delete me!", but the thing to realize is that PvE "balance" is for the most part a joke. GW's skill set is simply too powerful and the monsters are too simple. That's why places like UW, one of the ultimate dungeons of the game, have been farmed bad by ridiculous builds like 55/SV.
PvE balance is easy. If monsters are too powerful after a skill tweak, you can just tweak their health points, or add or remove a couple spawns, and that's it. It tends to be made even easier by the fact that every fight is predictable, so there will always be some skill load-out that trumps it. Perhaps more importantly, there are numerous skills that only really bad players are affected by in PvP, but are the dominant factors in PvE balance if counter-balancing ever needs to be done. A good example would be Flashing Blades and Critical Defenses, which are of extremely questionable use in PvP, but are really the roots of Assassin viability in PvE.
PvE balance should be an afterthought, because it is EASY to just bolt PvE balance changes on top of whatever the PvP balance is at the time without conflict. If something is too powerful in PvE, nobody complains, because it just makes killing stuff easier. The reverse is not true. If an ability becomes too strong in PvP, it makes a mess of everything, and adding some overpowered counter to it is far from ideal

That PvE balance is so easy that if a skill is overpowered that anet should tweak there health points, or add or remove a couple spawns, and that's it.

Well what do you guys think?

ogre-mage

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2007

Earth.

[HaCK]

N/Me

02 Jun 2007 at 08:20 - 2

Garbage. That's just somebody talking out of their asshole about an issue that has been brought up over and OVER again. PvE isn't 'easy' unless you're competent and skilled. PvP having ANY effect on pvE is bullcrap, and has needed to be fixed since the dawn of Tyrian time.

I mean, seriously. Was anyone online lately? How fair is it to have a chest running weekend if only Europe is going to have favor? Why should the damn HA infringe upon MY play? The PvE/PvP issue is rooted in more than just skill balance.

Dr Strangelove

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Dec 2005

Wasting away again in Margaritaville

[HOTR]

02 Jun 2007 at 08:32 - 3

PvE balance is secondary to PvE balance, like it or not. In PvP, teams willingly exploit the most overpowered skills, and use them to beat the crap out of other players. To keep the game fun for everyone in PvP, there need to be a large number of skill-intensive builds on a roughly equal playing field. That's a pretty tall order, especially when tiny advantages make you win. Whether anet does a good job of balancing is another story, but it's obvious they could do a lot worse if you look at most other games like this.

I don't think there's ever been a case of mobs in PvE being nerfed for being overpowered. In PvE, you always know exactly what you're facing, and can bring the counter to it. Secondly, mobs are stupid. They'll stand in AoE and attack through SS until they blow up. The only time PvE balance becomes an issue is really when players can chainsaw through things so easily that the game loses challenge completely. For instance, the gear trick was stupid, and made us all dumber for having used it.

Ogre Mage - Weren't you off boycotting the SR nerf or farming nerf or something?

Lord Mendes

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Nov 2005

Derka-Derka Land

Steel Phoenix (StP)

E/

02 Jun 2007 at 08:34 - 4

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

That PvE balance is so easy that if a skill is overpowered that anet should tweak there health points, or add or remove a couple spawns, and that's it.

Well what do you guys think?

I think you misinterpreted his post.
He is saying that skills are the way they are and are tweaked according to PvP (which is entirely true), and that if these skills are made so powerful that mobs are invincible the number of mobs or spawns is modified accordingly. This usually happens before the game is even released (PvE areas are tested and marked too easy/hard and changed accordingly) and is not really that hard to do.

Now when people bring up "PvE balance vs mobs" I really don't know what to think. This type of balance will never exist due to the nature of the game: the ai is predictable, you know the ai's skill bar, and you have the option to run whatever skills and templates you want under the basic restrictions (party size, professions, etc).
Sure it might be hard at times but that has nothing to do with balance at all.

PvP balance is the same as PvE balance, which is the balance between classes and how they interact.

I'm pretty sure this shouldn't be offensive to anyone, but this is riverside after all, so flame away!

fenix

Major-General Awesome

Join Date: Aug 2005

Aussie Trolling Crew HQ - Event Organiser and IRC Tiger

Ex Talionis [Law], Trinity of the Ascended [ToA] ????????????????&#

W/

02 Jun 2007 at 08:46 - 5

Basically, what he's saying, is that in PvE, if something becomes imba, or becomes super weak because of a balance, Anet can change the number of that monster so that the problem isn't that bad. Also, if skills are nerfed that PvErs use a lot, then there are always alternatives. Normally balances don't completely ruin PvE builds, unless they were intended to, or there wasn't any other option.

Miral

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2005

Hell. AKA Phoenix, AZ

The Gear Trick [GEAR]

W/A

02 Jun 2007 at 09:35 - 6

im wondering if the majority of guildwars pvp people will move to fury, which is entirely pvp with a setup similar to guild wars with a few unreal tournament elements added in (like powerups placed around the map), once it is released... hopefully they will, and the pvp balance affecting pve issue can just go away...

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

02 Jun 2007 at 10:33 - 7

I play PvE only.
The dude has a point. It is easy.
Well it SHOULD be easy!
But the lovely A.net is too bloody lazy to think of the balance in the greater sense.
Step 1:
You balance skills for PvP.

and Step 2 SHOULD be:
2. You balance PvE FOR the new skills.

Something like 400+ AoE damage [skill]Spirit Rift[/skill] vs. a bunch of hench who don't move out of it IS insane - especially if one calls the target and the first one to run in are the monkies and eles - while that lovely Devona takes 5 for a ciggy break first!
And that is unbalanced! And it should get fixed! And like the dude said - it IS easy!
Unless you're lazy!

ensoriki

Forge Runner

Join Date: Aug 2006

Canada bro.

A/D

02 Jun 2007 at 11:30 - 8

Yizo...that stupid afflicted bastard

messes people up all the timE!

and with retarded hench AI your likely to have to solo the mission 0_o

Kakumei

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2005

Grind is subjective

learn this please

02 Jun 2007 at 15:05 - 9

Quote:

Originally Posted by ogre-mage

I mean, seriously. Was anyone online lately? How fair is it to have a chest running weekend if only Europe is going to have favor? Why should the damn HA infringe upon MY play?

What does this have to do with anything? Are you only chestrunning in the Fissure or something?

Evilsod

Banned

Join Date: Mar 2006

England

Lievs Death Squad [LDS]

02 Jun 2007 at 15:18 - 10

Meh, they need to fix Ele/Rit bosses, not the skills. When it gets to the stage that a single skill can wipe 8 people in 1 shot things are starting to get lame, not hard. I'm really sick of Anets "Hard = 4x damage" approach to PvE.

Quote:

He is saying that skills are the way they are and are tweaked according to PvP (which is entirely true), and that if these skills are made so powerful that mobs are invincible the number of mobs or spawns is modified accordingly. This usually happens before the game is even released (PvE areas are tested and marked too easy/hard and changed accordingly) and is not really that hard to do.

While you have a point... how long did it take them to modify the spawns in the Realm of Torment? Domain of Fear was just stupid. when you can get spiked by eles spamming Deep Freeze and Mind Freeze and get completely wiped something needs tweeking and it taken them until 1 month to do something about it.

Lord Mendes

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Nov 2005

Derka-Derka Land

Steel Phoenix (StP)

E/

02 Jun 2007 at 15:32 - 11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

While you have a point... how long did it take them to modify the spawns in the Realm of Torment? Domain of Fear was just stupid. when you can get spiked by eles spamming Deep Freeze and Mind Freeze and get completely wiped something needs tweeking and it taken them until 1 month to do something about it.

Whether Anet are doing it or how often they are is a different subject altogether.
Point being, fixing mob spawns in PvE is an easier way to "nerf" something if it proves too powerful, much more practical than changing the skills themselves.
Is sandstorm overpowered on it's own? Not necessarily. Is it overpowered on the drought against hench that ball up? No doubt.
The problem isn't Sandstorm, it's the boss, and the boss should be changed accordingly.
I don't see how someone could be having trouble comprehending this, and this is hardly worth a thread.

I don't know whether this is relevant (probably not), but:

Quote:

Originally Posted by guildwars.com

Updated some creatures so that they no longer have two elite skills in Hard Mode.

LifeInfusion

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: May 2005

in the midline

E/Mo

02 Jun 2007 at 17:52 - 12

PvE balance is absolutely backseat to PvP balance. I agree with the person the OP quoted.

No matter what the instance, the only reason that PvE is messed up by PvP balance is because mobs have 4x damage or crazy environmental effects that hurt players but not the mobs (such as Sandstorm bosses with 2x damage for all earth damage). In such a case, the problem is not the balance in PvP but the PvE environment. Patrols that are clumped, for example.

Besides, PvP affecting PvE balance wouldn't be bad. It would make all the classes more even. The only exception I can think of is Spiritual Pain.

As for paragons, they got hit bad, but that didn't make them useless in PvE. People just overreacted.

JoeKnowMo

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Oct 2005

Wessst Siiide, USA

Mo/

02 Jun 2007 at 22:30 - 13

PvE balance and PvP balance are two different beasts.

PvP balance is mostly about nerfing/buffing skills and should take a front-seat to balancing skills for PvE.

PvE balance is about professions being similar in power/value to the team and about monster difficulty being reasonable. The latter is easy enough but the former is far more challenging and not easily solved by the suggestions in the OP.

One of the inherent dilemmas with balancing is that PvP thrives on balance (less skills/profs conducive to greater balance) while PvE thrives on variety (more skills, builds, professions, the better).

Add in the difference in skill level between the two playerbases, the different levels of tolerance for losing/death, and the possibility of customizing your entire team's skillbars in PvP and the near impossibility of doing so in PvE and it gets even more difficult to simultaneously balance both sides effectively.

Chicken Ftw

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2006

02 Jun 2007 at 22:42 - 14

Quote:

Originally Posted by ogre-mage

PvE isn't 'easy' unless you're competent and skilled.

Genious, if you're skilled the game is easy, if you suck it's hard. My hat off to you, my wise friend! <_<

I agree with Riotgear. Balance is pretty useless in PvE, since the AI is so predictable in every fight, and the right skillbars for each location will let you blow through the area without much difficulty. PvP balance is where the focus should be.

adderworks

Academy Page

Join Date: Dec 2005

Mo/Me

03 Jun 2007 at 02:52 - 15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

im wondering if the majority of guildwars pvp people will move to fury, which is entirely pvp with a setup similar to guild wars with a few unreal tournament elements added in (like powerups placed around the map), once it is released... hopefully they will, and the pvp balance affecting pve issue can just go away...

The un-spoken comment there is that the PVPers will go away which suits me just fine. Their abuse of the SR made the Devs nerf SR, after all. Who knows, the Devs might fix it if they lose the PVPers.

In any case the theory is better than the normal ANET methodology for PVE changes. It speaks to areas as unique areas instead of global nerfs to all maps.

Nebuchadnezzer

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Aug 2006

bish

The Carebear Club [care]

N/

03 Jun 2007 at 03:35 - 16

Quote:

Originally Posted by adderworks

The un-spoken comment there is that the PVPers will go away which suits me just fine. Their abuse of the SR made the Devs nerf SR, after all. Who knows, the Devs might fix it if they lose the PVPers.

In any case the theory is better than the normal ANET methodology for PVE changes. It speaks to areas as unique areas instead of global nerfs to all maps.

I think most PvP'ers will agree with me that the new change to SR was extremely useless. They tried to use a fancy change with their little timer, which effected PvE, when ALL they had to do is make spirits NOT effect SR. Thats it. Thats All. Minions should effect SR, SR should always run, no BS timer. The ONLY problem anyone ever had with SR was that Unlimited energy necros with spirit spam RUINED it. So please, dont blame the pvp community for Anet's blunders.

Yichi

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2005

Guild Hall, Vent, Guesting, PvE, or the occasional HA match...

Dark Alley [dR]

03 Jun 2007 at 07:24 - 17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

hopefully they will, and the pvp balance affecting pve issue can just go away...

Spoken from someone who truly knows nothing about the games mechanics or design. Even if the majority of PVP players left for fury when it comes out, it still will NEVER change the fact that as long as GW1 is around, it will always be balanced around PVP and those balances will ultimately affect PVE...

Divinus Stella

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2005

Wales

Steel Phoenix

03 Jun 2007 at 11:47 - 18

I think balance can be achieved with mutual benefit.

The 2 main balance issues in HA are Paragons and Ritualists.
Do paragons ever tank in PvE? Wouldnt it be better to give them 60AL and give them more damage/party buff role so they could actually have a use in PvE rather than being used occasionally in set builds just for one or two skills.

Same with rit damage skills, damage ritualists are pointless in PvE, they are only really used by new/clueless players, taking 20dmg off each skill wouldnt hurt anyone in PvE.

Lord Mendes

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Nov 2005

Derka-Derka Land

Steel Phoenix (StP)

E/

03 Jun 2007 at 12:52 - 19

Quote:

Originally Posted by adderworks

The un-spoken comment there is that the PVPers will go away which suits me just fine.

Everybody's happy

(except you when you realize that Anet will still value PvP balance more than whining 12 year olds)

Quote:

Originally Posted by adderworks

Their abuse of the SR made the Devs nerf SR, after all. Who knows, the Devs might fix it if they lose the PVPers.

Bulldozing through PvE with a necro with the equivalent of 10 extra energy regen from soul reaping is hardly abusing soul reaping, right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nebuchadnezzer

I think most PvP'ers will agree with me that the new change to SR was extremely useless. They tried to use a fancy change with their little timer, which effected PvE,

Maybe they wanted it to affect PvE because it was a mindless and overpowered attribute?

PvE balance is almost an oxymoron and will never be important in the grand scheme of things, where as PvP depends entirely on balance.

cthulhu reborn

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jan 2007

the Netherlands

W/Mo

03 Jun 2007 at 13:12 - 20

I think PvP'ers don't realise how much spike damage you can take from level 28 ele's...lowering health is a no go in that sense.

Besides, since hard mode it is a bit of a moot point. Normal mode is supposed to be relatively easy for casual and non grind players. Hard mode is more challenging but not to everybody's liking. There will always be people who want it even more difficult but there's got to be a limit somewhere.

There is an issue that I have with solo builds. They are overpowered in my view but some people love it. So I simply don't. In the end this game is not WoW where items rule the game and real money is spent in large amounts on such items. If you are upset about FoW costing 800k instead of 1.5million then that's just too bad.

PvP and PvE are just not the same and PvE-only skills can help. If you don't like em don't use em...as simple as that. If you want a challenge, go out with 6 instead of 8. I mean there is plenty you can do yourself to get more challenge if you need it.

adderworks

Academy Page

Join Date: Dec 2005

Mo/Me

03 Jun 2007 at 16:28 - 21

Lord Mendes, I bet that ANET values the dollar more than the whinging of the PVPers. And, both Mommy and Daddy pay for juniors account in addition to playing on it in many cases. So, ANET has to start kissing PVE butt if they want PVE people to forget the nerf and check out the game, again.

As for the soul reaping points, I am not going there other than saying, "Seeing is believing, and ANET is doing nothing at the moment. So, there is nothing to see."

Lord Natural

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2005

Canada

Black Crescent [BC]

W/

03 Jun 2007 at 16:46 - 22

In PvP, the game has become Build Wars more than ever. That is, even vs. a skilled team, 1 or 2 overpowered skills can easily determine the outcome of the match. What better way to analyze game imbalances than through this format?

PvE is predictable, and the ai do not have equal levels and attributes for the most part. Just because a level 30 boss wipes your party, does not mean the skills he's using are overpowered. They are simply 3x their normal strength due to the level difference. On the other end, because of the predictability factor, there are just a million ways to succeed in PvE. It's not like there will be 3-4 skills that if changed, will make the game unbeatable. Solo builds may be changed, yes, but overall it's just a minor inconvenience rather than a game breaker.

For the most part, the dominant skills don't mix anyway. If I decide to PvE PuG (which is rare, nowadays) the builds people will template post are usually pretty far removed from anything I ever see in PvP. I decided to monk the deep the other day (first time in many months) and ended up being mocked because I hadn't included a certain skill -- A skill which I'd pretty much forgot existed because of its impracticality in PvP. I guess that makes me the noob, but it just goes to show that the skill sets people use in PvE rarely corrolate to PvP. Consider Ensign's thread in the Gladiator's forum. While those suggested changed would make worlds of difference in PvP, I don't see it breaking PvE if those changes were implimented.

If you follow the theme here, it's that balance is much more critical in PvP than in PvE. Skill changes will have effect on PvE, but they literally make or break PvP. As such it makes sense to me that balance changes should predominantly focus on PvP.

Lord Mendes

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Nov 2005

Derka-Derka Land

Steel Phoenix (StP)

E/

03 Jun 2007 at 19:25 - 23

Quote:

Originally Posted by adderworks

Lord Mendes, I bet that ANET values the dollar more than the whinging of the PVPers. And, both Mommy and Daddy pay for juniors account in addition to playing on it in many cases. So, ANET has to start kissing PVE butt if they want PVE people to forget the nerf and check out the game, again

This is where our arguments differ (if I am reading this correctly).
What I am saying ("skill balances are done with PvP in mind") is based on what Anet has been saying and two years of observation ("skill balances are most likely PvP influenced, unless something is gamebreaking in PvE").

You sir, are just assuming that Anet will suddenly start to appease to PvEers regarding skill balance. Using your logic, Anet will stop balancing skills because they will upset PvEers if they do.
Wishful thinking is a wonderful thing.

adderworks

Academy Page

Join Date: Dec 2005

Mo/Me

03 Jun 2007 at 20:44 - 24

Lord Mendes, ANET cares only about PVP. So, you are most likely correct for your first bit. But.... They keep screwing over PVEers and expecting us to buy their crap. So, they best get to kissing PVE bum aaaaaaaa whole lot if they want to any of the older PVE types to stick with them until GW 2 comes out. :P

Sectus

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2005

Miss Meow Meow's Guild

03 Jun 2007 at 20:50 - 25

PvE balance can't be fixed by tweaking AI's health or skillbars alone, that just simply isn't enough.

If you do that, you get the problem that as skills are balanced for PvP those skills becomes too powerful or too weak in PvE. And in the long run, things just gets worse and worse. MM and SS are good examples, they're both insanely powerful in PvE, MM mitigates a ton of damage while SS deals out a ton of damage. There's no arguing that SS and MM are among the best uses necros have for PvE. And in the long run, players might become really bored of playing those builds... but they're pretty much forced to play them since the alternatives are weak. And this just gets worse and worse, since MM and SS are relatively weak in PvP and thus are unlikely to ever be nerfed... while other skills continue to become nerfed.

The mesmer is an even better example. I'd say that 75% of all the mesmer skills in the game are absolutely useless in PvE. Certain skills such as Backfire, Empathy and Mistrust are good in PvE. But on the other hand... Tease, Diversion, Blackout, Ignorance, Overload, Panic, Power Flux, and countless other skills are near useless. And to make it worse, while Backfire and Empathy are pretty good, it can be argued that an SS necro would be able to deal out more total damage (especially considering SS can be useful when applied to any foe... while backfire and empathy are conditional)

This is the sorts of problems you get if you only balance PvE via monster health and monster skill bars. And it's gradually getting worse because Anet aren't implementing proper fixes.

As I see it, there's only 2 ways to really fix PvE balance:
1) Drastically improve monster AI and make their skillbars slightly random (not too random, as that might potentially give them a useless build, but enough randomness so that the players can't be sure whether or the enemies are equipping enchant removal, hex removal, etc) and make sure every monster has 8 skills.
2) Balance skills as in PvP (this has the consequence it'll affect PvP... in that case, they can give all skills different stats for PvE and PvP)

Age

Hall Hero

Join Date: Jul 2005

California Canada/BC

STG Administrator

Mo/

03 Jun 2007 at 22:06 - 26

I know what you are trying to to get at here and get frustrated with skill balances but the only one you are upset about is BHA.I can understand that and most do but if you look at the flipside of it you would see it differently.Look at it from a PvP Monks pov you did mention cop not all Monk use cop on their bar.When playing in a GvG match you don't know what the opposing team has.Their Ranger could all have BHA and when the team is split that makes a Monks jop even harder 10 sec may not seem long to you but it is to a Monk that may have diversion them as well.

When it comes to PvE the mobs can be balanced and for the most part Hard Mode it not balanced out.The crawl in Old Ascalon are way overpwered and some other are as well I found Witman's Folly not to bad but for old Ascalon forget it with backbreak no way.Then there was the time you and I went out of Granite yes in HM as you were showing me some stuff.There was only one Gnasher left when you died so I took it on ad couldn't.It over powered me with Deathly Swarm.It is just like the Bog Scales outside of Sactum Cay or Stingray Stand they to are over powered with Deathly Swam and no way Alesia can't heal it.

When we were outside of Granite I should of been able to negate the damage use Reversal of Fortute very easy but no way.That one Gnasher should not have been a problem for me with 13 in protect.I would have to say that Hard Mode as well as the bosses are way over powered as some have been crying to use 7 heros.I doubt that would do it no Anet needs to do a complete over haul of hard mode.This is the reason I don't play it unless I am safely in a wurm.The may want to look at the skill Deathly Swarm as well.The AI needs an adjustment in certain areas in normal mode as well as the henchies need their skill bars reviewed.I heard someone say Devona well that is the best Hench in the game other than some of the Alesias 3,6.15 and 20 are the best.

I hope you can understand where I am getting at here when it comes to Monking in PvP as well as PvE .

Mai

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Needs Moar[DESU]

Mo/

03 Jun 2007 at 23:33 - 27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

I know what you are trying to to get at here and get frustrated with skill balances but the only one you are upset about is BHA.I can understand that and most do but if you look at the flipside of it you would see it differently.Look at it from a PvP Monks pov you did mention cop not all Monk use cop on their bar.When playing in a GvG match you don't know what the opposing team has.Their Ranger could all have BHA and when the team is split that makes a Monks jop even harder 10 sec may not seem long to you but it is to a Monk that may have diversion them as well.

When it comes to PvE the mobs can be balanced and for the most part Hard Mode it not balanced out.The crawl in Old Ascalon are way overpwered and some other are as well I found Witman's Folly not to bad but for old Ascalon forget it with backbreak no way.Then there was the time you and I went out of Granite yes in HM as you were showing me some stuff.There was only one Gnasher left when you died so I took it on ad couldn't.It over powered me with Deathly Swarm.It is just like the Bog Scales outside of Sactum Cay or Stingray Stand they to are over powered with Deathly Swam and no way Alesia can't heal it.

When we were outside of Granite I should of been able to negate the damage use Reversal of Fortute very easy but no way.That one Gnasher should not have been a problem for me with 13 in protect.I would have to say that Hard Mode as well as the bosses are way over powered as some have been crying to use 7 heros.I doubt that would do it no Anet needs to do a complete over haul of hard mode.This is the reason I don't play it unless I am safely in a wurm.The may want to look at the skill Deathly Swarm as well.The AI needs an adjustment in certain areas in normal mode as well as the henchies need their skill bars reviewed.I heard someone say Devona well that is the best Hench in the game other than some of the Alesias 3,6.15 and 20 are the best.

I hope you can understand where I am getting at here when it comes to Monking in PvP as well as PvE .

No I did not understand a single word

Ensign

Just Plain Fluffy

Join Date: Dec 2004

Berkeley, CA

Idiot Savants

03 Jun 2007 at 23:54 - 28

Quote:

Originally Posted by cthulhu reborn

I think PvP'ers don't realise how much spike damage you can take from level 28 ele's

Honestly I don't think most PvErs understand how much spike damage they can take later on in the game, what with energy armor, multiple superior runes, and an overall lack of self defense. It's like everyone operates under the assumption that the tank will keep all the aggro forever, and if it ever breaks everyone needs to run away and reset it.

Ever seen a 60ed Ele try and do anything with 2 sups and no health parts? It is really, really funny.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Natural

Just because a level 30 boss wipes your party, does not mean the skills he's using are overpowered.

What does overpowered even mean in the context of a monster skill? That it's too challenging? That's not really overpowered, it's just a hard encounter. That it excludes too many strategies before you even look? That's just weak design and narrow. As far as I can gather, overpowered only makes any sense in the context of player skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Natural

I decided to monk the deep the other day (first time in many months) and ended up being mocked because I hadn't included a certain skill -- A skill which I'd pretty much forgot existed because of its impracticality in PvP.

Healing Seed is win in PvE you noob!

...actually it really isn't, people are just used to it. It's ok on a Healer's Boon bar, but Shield of Absorption and Prot Spirit are more key everywhere else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Natural

If you follow the theme here, it's that balance is much more critical in PvP than in PvE. Skill changes will have effect on PvE, but they literally make or break PvP.

I don't think that it's more critical in either gametype, but it's more sensitive in PvP. Small differences in how a skill works or in what's good have huge effects on the PvP metagame, how matches play out, and whether or not the game is fun. Just for example, Mending Touch on a 4 second recharge was too good in GvG, but on a 6 second recharge I think it's a perfectly fair skill and good for the metagame. Did that change have any practical effect on PvE?

In PvE you have characters like the 1 HP BiP or 55 Monk, which are insanely effective at what they do, but aren't balance problems. Why? Because they don't take other people's jobs. In fact the only character that I'd really call overpowered in PvE is the Ele Obsidian Flesh tank, because it takes the tanking job away from Warriors and gives it to a profession that already is very good at nuking. As long as each profession has their distinct role that they do better than anyone else, PvE is generally considered balanced. Individual skill changes that make their relative power higher or lower is just noise.

Peace,
-CxE

isamu kurosawa

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2005

United Kingdom

Me/

04 Jun 2007 at 01:03 - 29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divinus Stella

Same with rit damage skills, damage ritualists are pointless in PvE, they are only really used by new/clueless players, taking 20dmg off each skill wouldnt hurt anyone in PvE.

Scince the buffs to channeling it has become a very useful line in PvE as a matter of fact. Having it nerfed again would remove a possible role from PvE Rts. One of the main reasons i like playing Rt is the variety of playstlyes they have, nerfing channeling skills would reduce that variety, making the class much less attractive.

MoreaChanduen

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jun 2007

The Cursed Blades [TcB]

R/Me

04 Jun 2007 at 05:01 - 30

Quote:

Originally Posted by ogre-mage

Garbage. That's just somebody talking out of their asshole about an issue that has been brought up over and OVER again. PvE isn't 'easy' unless you're competent and skilled. PvP having ANY effect on pvE is bullcrap, and has needed to be fixed since the dawn of Tyrian time.

I mean, seriously. Was anyone online lately? How fair is it to have a chest running weekend if only Europe is going to have favor? Why should the damn HA infringe upon MY play? The PvE/PvP issue is rooted in more than just skill balance.

Yes, it's true that the PvP affecting PvE issue IS an issue and certainly needs to be dealt with... and I can't say I'm too happy about the European ONLY FoW chest running weekend.

manitoba1073

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2006

ManitobaShipyards Refit and Repair Station

(SFC)Star Fleet Command,(TDE)The Daggerfall elite,(SOoM)Secret order of Magi

04 Jun 2007 at 05:07 - 31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

I know what you are trying to to get at here and get frustrated with skill balances but the only one you are upset about is BHA.I can understand that and most do but if you look at the flipside of it you would see it differently.Look at it from a PvP Monks pov you did mention cop not all Monk use cop on their bar.When playing in a GvG match you don't know what the opposing team has.Their Ranger could all have BHA and when the team is split that makes a Monks jop even harder 10 sec may not seem long to you but it is to a Monk that may have diversion them as well.

When it comes to PvE the mobs can be balanced and for the most part Hard Mode it not balanced out.The crawl in Old Ascalon are way overpwered and some other are as well I found Witman's Folly not to bad but for old Ascalon forget it with backbreak no way.Then there was the time you and I went out of Granite yes in HM as you were showing me some stuff.There was only one Gnasher left when you died so I took it on ad couldn't.It over powered me with Deathly Swarm.It is just like the Bog Scales outside of Sactum Cay or Stingray Stand they to are over powered with Deathly Swam and no way Alesia can't heal it.

When we were outside of Granite I should of been able to negate the damage use Reversal of Fortute very easy but no way.That one Gnasher should not have been a problem for me with 13 in protect.I would have to say that Hard Mode as well as the bosses are way over powered as some have been crying to use 7 heros.I doubt that would do it no Anet needs to do a complete over haul of hard mode.This is the reason I don't play it unless I am safely in a wurm.The may want to look at the skill Deathly Swarm as well.The AI needs an adjustment in certain areas in normal mode as well as the henchies need their skill bars reviewed.I heard someone say Devona well that is the best Hench in the game other than some of the Alesias 3,6.15 and 20 are the best.

I hope you can understand where I am getting at here when it comes to Monking in PvP as well as PvE .

I understand you perfectly unfortuantely most others wont.

But you kinda missed the point of the show. That there are other ways of doing the same thing. Yes BHA is a big deal when if these changes do happen it would make it useless and they may as well delete it as a skill altogether then. And you know how I monk. If BHA and that conditions are that much of a problem to some one then theres a problem with that monk or his teammates.

Nekretaal

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2007

04 Jun 2007 at 14:54 - 32

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

I That PvE balance is so easy that if a skill is overpowered that anet should tweak there health points, or add or remove a couple spawns, and that's it.

Well what do you guys think?

I'm sorry but this approach is total crap.

Anet has done this a couple of times already, most recently with the introduction of hard mode, and it just makes the game weaker.

My favorite lightbringer run used to be in the depths of madness. You would take the magonite bounty, beat some margonites, take the shadow bounty, beat shadows and the odd torments until you got to the area where the torment bounty was. This was tricky because there were 3 patrols of torments and one patrol of titans and a necro boss all in the area of the bounty making it very tricky. But, if you got the bounty, you could double ytour lightbringer points on the run and access the easy margonites in the back too. Before the soulreaping nerf, you could complete the area with good tactics and a MM.

After the soul reaping nerf, you couldnt complete the area with necromancers. (I'm sure you could, but not agressively). Necromancers couldnt recover quickly enough after deaths of minions/pets/henchies to sustain the fight when the secondary mobs eventually collapsed on you.

Within a week of the soul reaping nerf, the mob spawns in the area were completely changed. Instead of tricky patterns with patrols... you got a bunch of static patterns... making the area another lure nuke lure area. Theres nothing as dangerous in the areas as those titans that wandered into the two-mob torment fight... exploding on impact with all that aoe everywhere from both sides. BORING. I miss the old area, which was much more interesting.

Yesterday I finsihed vanquishing Perdition Rock (Norgu with Hex eater vortex ftw)... and I noticed that instead of 4-5 patrols of hydra running around to gank you at the start of the map, there was only 2 patrols of hydra. At least on patrol now never moved from its start location and at least one, and up to three patrols were removed entirely. While hydra are elementalists, and elementalists in hard mode are to be feared... The change made the map ridiculously easy... easier in hard mode than it used to be in normal mode.

I was hoping for a challenge to break up the grind, but it wasnt there.

Anets gotten it right before. When Mind Burn was tweaked to a 5 second recharge, they change the ring of fire sparks of the titan AI to not exclusivly spam it... so the area played like it did before. Good change! But, when anet ruins explorable areas for pvp balances... the result, IMHO is a least sometimes a blander less interesting game.

Age

Hall Hero

Join Date: Jul 2005

California Canada/BC

STG Administrator

Mo/

04 Jun 2007 at 21:31 - 33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mai

No I did not understand a single word

What don't you understand?In a nut shell to put it easier Hard Mode is way over powered and in normal mode the AI with deathly swarm need to be looked at.This is an AI rebalance issue from the talk that is going on in The Gladiator Forum of the Wishlist 2007.

Mai

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Needs Moar[DESU]

Mo/

04 Jun 2007 at 21:45 - 34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

What don't you understand?In a nut shell to put it easier Hard Mode is way over powered and in normal mode the AI with deathly swarm need to be looked at.This is an AI rebalance issue from the talk that is going on in The Gladiator Forum of the Wishlist 2007.

Hardmode is hardly overpowered. The problem is that people bring the same skillset for every zone rather than adapt to what the zone and mobs there have. If you know your going to get hit with hard aoe then bring bring a rit or lod monk for backup. Saying something is overpowered in PvE is just an excuse that you don't know how to deal with it.

Age

Hall Hero

Join Date: Jul 2005

California Canada/BC

STG Administrator

Mo/

04 Jun 2007 at 21:56 - 35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mai

Hardmode is hardly overpowered. The problem is that people bring the same skillset for every zone rather than adapt to what the zone and mobs there have. If you know your going to get hit with hard aoe then bring bring a rit or lod monk for backup. Saying something is overpowered in PvE is just an excuse that you don't know how to deal with it.

Then I suggest you go and use reversal of fortune on Reyna from the backbraking Crawl and see how long your mana does.They should be just the same as the nromal mode crawl but I vanqished Witmans Folly with my Ranger easier than Old Ascalon.

Age

Hall Hero

Join Date: Jul 2005

California Canada/BC

STG Administrator

Mo/

04 Jun 2007 at 22:00 - 36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mai

Hardmode is hardly overpowered. The problem is that people bring the same skillset for every zone rather than adapt to what the zone and mobs there have. If you know your going to get hit with hard aoe then bring bring a rit or lod monk for backup. Saying something is overpowered in PvE is just an excuse that you don't know how to deal with it.

Then I suggest you go out an use reversal of fortune on Renya in Old Ascalon and see how your mana holds up.I did Vanqish Witmans Folly as the crawl only have ViM not Backbreaker.

Age

Hall Hero

Join Date: Jul 2005

California Canada/BC

STG Administrator

Mo/

04 Jun 2007 at 22:13 - 37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mai

Hardmode is hardly overpowered. The problem is that people bring the same skillset for every zone rather than adapt to what the zone and mobs there have. If you know your going to get hit with hard aoe then bring bring a rit or lod monk for backup. Saying something is overpowered in PvE is just an excuse that you don't know how to deal with it.

I would suggest you go out and try to Vanq. Old Ascalon 1 hero and 2 Henchies and you will be spamming RoF untill your man burns out.I vanq all of Witmans Folly as the crawl don't use backbreaker.I burned my mana on Reyna who died a lot.

Mai

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Needs Moar[DESU]

Mo/

04 Jun 2007 at 22:19 - 38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

I would suggest you go out and try to Vanq. Old Ascalon 1 hero and 2 Henchies and you will be spamming RoF untill your man burns out.I vanq all of Witmans Folly as the crawl don't use backbreaker.I burned my mana on Reyna who died a lot.

Been there done that. I'll throw in a legendary guardian title too.

Criminally Sane

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Aug 2005

With my angel.

Needs Moar [DESU]

W/

04 Jun 2007 at 22:38 - 39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

I would suggest you go out and try to Vanq. Old Ascalon 1 hero and 2 Henchies and you will be spamming RoF untill your man burns out.I vanq all of Witmans Folly as the crawl don't use backbreaker.I burned my mana on Reyna who died a lot.

I think I see the issue. Why mindlessly spam RoF when you could negate most of the damage with PS/SoA, maybe throw an occasional ZB? More effective and energy efficient. HM isn't overpowered, it just requires you to think a little and be decent at the game.

Ork Pride

Banned

Join Date: May 2005

05 Jun 2007 at 00:16 - 40

The worst thing that can happen is a PvP player giving suggestions for PvE.