Why is strength frowned upon?

Pericles

Pericles

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2007

[GoD]

R/

Why do people consider strength as a terrible primary attribute?
Most warriors run about 10 strength so thats 10% armor penetration on ALL your attacks. I find that very nice for damaging purposes. I would like to hear people's opinions about strength because i don't get why people almost 'hate'
this attribute. Also please don't turn this into a Tactics-Strength thread.

Thx in advance

RotteN

RotteN

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jun 2005

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pericles
Most warriors run about 10 strength so thats 10% armor penetration on ALL your attacks. that's exactly where you go wrong, it's not an ALL attacks, it's solely on your "skill-attacks" (attacks in which you use a skill, like for example, when using executioner's strike).

It's a worthless attribute because it does relatively nothing once you decide to spec higher in it. 8 or 9 strength (depending on weather or not you use a rune) is enough to get desired functionality out of skills like sprint, rush, flail, ...

speccing more will not give you much, apart from a few extra % AP on "skill-attacks", which totally not warrants the waste of attribute points.

fenix

fenix

Major-General Awesome

Join Date: Aug 2005

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Yeah, it's bad because it ONLY triggers on attack skills. So your regular hits don't get affected by Strength, which is why it's pretty bad. It DOES stack with Sundering, which is nice for big crits, but it's only when you do skills.

LightningHell

LightningHell

(????????????)???

Join Date: Aug 2005

Hong Kong

Guildless

Mo/

What makes it even worse than it sounds is that attack skill bonus damage is already armor ignoring, leaving the armor penetration to the base damage.

LifeInfusion

LifeInfusion

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: May 2005

in the midline

E/Mo

Only bother if using strength skills. P.S. it sucks for the same reason 10/10 sundering did.

A Leprechaun

A Leprechaun

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

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I invest quite a few points in, but just because I use the skills and have nothing else to put them in, the effect of stregth is lame with a capital L.

~A Leprechaun~

Isil`Zha

Isil`Zha

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Dec 2005

Look above you!

Knights of Apathy

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Oh man, I haven't played a Warrior in ages, I had always thought strength put sundering on all attacks, not just attack skills, which is why I wondered why people thought it was so bad... now I see why and fully agree that strength sucks as a primary attribute.

Most primary attributes have to do with saving energy, maybe strength should do something to help with adrenaline or something... and raise the cost of all warrior adrenal skills - actually giving strength a use.

qvtkc

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isil`Zha
Most primary attributes have to do with saving energy, maybe strength should do something to help with adrenaline or something... and raise the cost of all warrior adrenal skills - actually giving strength a use. Making Strength furious instead of sundering would be great - that is, instead of armor penetration on attack skills, make it something like this:

For each point of strength you gain 1% chance of gaining double adrenaline on hit.

Stacking with furious weapon mods, of course.

Saphatorael

Saphatorael

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Dec 2005

Belgium

Quote:
Originally Posted by LifeInfusion
Only bother if using strength skills. P.S. it sucks for the same reason 10/10 sundering did. Same for 20/20... It's still vastly inferior to Vampiric (and people seem to be too lazy to use 2 weapon sets and swap every now and then)..

The only reason I use Strength nowadays, is to get a decent duration out of Rush (when playing Axe Shock Warrior), but mainly Enraging Charge. Otherwise.
Either that, or I'm running some weird build that doesn't need points in Tactics, nor in any other attribute line.

Isil`Zha

Isil`Zha

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Dec 2005

Look above you!

Knights of Apathy

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Quote:
Originally Posted by qvtkc
Making Strength furious instead of sundering would be great - that is, instead of armor penetration on attack skills, make it something like this:

For each point of strength you gain 1% chance of gaining double adrenaline on hit.

Stacking with furious weapon mods, of course.
Actually, i was thinking more along these lines:

One strike of adrenaline is actually 25 points of it. Maybe every other rank in strength gives you an additional 3 points of adrenaline on strike, and an additional 1 point for each % of maximum health lost.

To balance it out, increase the adrenal cost of all Warrior skills so that Warriors aren't building it too fast, and so other professions can't use those skills as well - actually giving strength a good use.

Quote: Originally Posted by Saphatorael
Same for 20/20... It's still vastly inferior to Vampiric Not really, most of the time Vamp only increases DPS by a whopping 1 damage over 20/20 Sundering, and with some weapons it doesn't increase DPS over 20/20 Sundering at all. And especially at higher weapon masteries, Vampiric is actually inferior in damage dealing to 20/20 Sundering.

With an Axe against a 60 AL target, with 16 weapon mastery, customized and with 15^50 on all attacks has a DPS of 28.47 with 20/20 Sundering. With vampiric... 27.59

Most of the time, yes, Vampiric is better, but only slightly not vastly.

I posted a Damage Calculator in the community tools forum if you want to make several comparisons.

B E A S T

B E A S T

Banned

Join Date: Apr 2007

Anywhere but Guild Wars now, sadly.

It's a shame, this game had so much potential, but is ruined due to stale gameplay and lame updates

Strength is the worst primary attribute in the game...its almost as bad as a 20/20 sundering mod

I agree that strength should be furious, that would make it worth clicking up on the attribute points.

IMO strength skills are vastly supperior to tactics skills, but strength's benefit just blows.

LifeInfusion

LifeInfusion

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: May 2005

in the midline

E/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isil`Zha
Not really, most of the time Vamp only increases DPS by a whopping 1 damage over 20/20 Sundering, and with some weapons it doesn't increase DPS over 20/20 Sundering at all. And especially at higher weapon masteries, Vampiric is actually inferior in damage dealing to 20/20 Sundering.

With an Axe against a 60 AL target, with 16 weapon mastery, customized and with 15^50 on all attacks has a DPS of 28.47 with 20/20 Sundering. With vampiric... 27.59

Most of the time, yes, Vampiric is better, but only slightly not vastly.

I posted a Damage Calculator in the community tools forum if you want to make several comparisons. Vampiric is better vastly, not slightly. Most protection monks and Restoration Rits run damage mitigation such as Reversal of Fortune or Vengeful weapon. Life steal cuts through them. It ignores them, hitting when you otherwise wouldn't. Sundering just changes the damage of the attack.
In addition, Vampiric packets your damage, meaning things like "Reversal of Damage" that is so loved by Corsair Monks only reverse one part of the damage. It essentially is like Ignite Arrows with no AoE.

PvE wise, Vampiric is better 90% of the time, since you won't be doing insane damage even if you had 25% armor penetration 100% of the time considering the mobs are higher level than you (such as in Hard mode) and have higher armor and INNATE damage mitigation than they would have in PvP. Case in point is the air elementalist on high armor targets in PvE. The reduction is so much that it ends up being pointless if it is a 1 in 5 chance to happen like Sundering. You know when you hit for like 10 max damage with Wild Blow with 16 weapon Mastery on warrior bosses that it ends up being beneficial to carry Vampiric.

That is why it is only worth it to run Sundering if you are going to be afking and die to 1 pip of degen or if you aren't going to be hitting period.

Mesmer in Need

Mesmer in Need

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2006

[ToA]

I think strength should give +1% attack speed for every 2 ranks or so. If they did that, thumpers and even sins may be out of a job. (btw with thumpers, never let a ranger do a warriors job). And lets not let this drift into a sundering vs vamp thread.

B E A S T

B E A S T

Banned

Join Date: Apr 2007

Anywhere but Guild Wars now, sadly.

It's a shame, this game had so much potential, but is ruined due to stale gameplay and lame updates

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mesmer in Need
And lets not let this drift into a sundering vs vamp thread. Why should we, when furious puts them all to shame?

ArKaiN

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jan 2007

Lotus Branca[Lbr]

Mo/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mesmer in Need
I think strength should give +1% attack speed for every 2 ranks or so. If they did that, thumpers and even sins may be out of a job. (btw with thumpers, never let a ranger do a warriors job). And lets not let this drift into a sundering vs vamp thread. You do understand Rangers can keep up +33%Attack AND Movement speed and spam hammer attacks all they want almost never running out of energy, right? I'm confused as how that's comparable to a warrior thumper(other than you know, some extra armor)

Solus Spartan

Solus Spartan

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2007

Australia

[Lawl]

Mo/

Make it 1 str = 1 vamparic, that would make it nicely overpowered and interesting

B E A S T

B E A S T

Banned

Join Date: Apr 2007

Anywhere but Guild Wars now, sadly.

It's a shame, this game had so much potential, but is ruined due to stale gameplay and lame updates

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solus Spartan
Make it 1 str = 1 vamparic, that would make it nicely overpowered and interesting That would be interesting...but the only way to balance it would be every three levels of strength you would get -1 degen. 15 stength, -5 degen

This would also render many strength builds useless.

LifeInfusion

LifeInfusion

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: May 2005

in the midline

E/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by B E A S T
Why should we, when furious puts them all to shame? On Dragon slash + adrenaline based warriors (most warriors) yes. On energy based warriors, Zealous > all.

B E A S T

B E A S T

Banned

Join Date: Apr 2007

Anywhere but Guild Wars now, sadly.

It's a shame, this game had so much potential, but is ruined due to stale gameplay and lame updates

Quote:
Originally Posted by LifeInfusion
On Dragon slash + adrenaline based warriors (most warriors) yes. On energy based warriors, Zealous > all. Warriors have a low amount of energy for a reason. Zealous = Worst Mod

EDIT

And if you must have energy, use Warriors Endurance...or go play an ele!

LifeInfusion

LifeInfusion

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: May 2005

in the midline

E/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by B E A S T
Warriors have a low amount of energy for a reason. Zealous = Worst Mod

EDIT

And if you must have energy, use Warriors Endurance...or go play an ele! >_>

Shield's up? steady stancers? KD/AS (sucks now)? IWAY? All the strength skills...

Evilsod

Evilsod

Banned

Join Date: Mar 2006

England

Lievs Death Squad [LDS]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArKaiN
You do understand Rangers can keep up +33%Attack AND Movement speed and spam hammer attacks all they want almost never running out of energy, right? I'm confused as how that's comparable to a warrior thumper(other than you know, some extra armor)
No... a ranger can't. Kill off his pet a few times taking it to 60dp and it'll die that frequently he'll need to keep ressing it to use RaO. RaO thumper is ridiculously energy intensive.

Quote:
Warriors have a low amount of energy for a reason. Zealous = Worst Mod

EDIT

And if you must have energy, use Warriors Endurance...or go play an ele! I think that post has just lost all benefit of the doubt you'll get in this thread...

B E A S T

B E A S T

Banned

Join Date: Apr 2007

Anywhere but Guild Wars now, sadly.

It's a shame, this game had so much potential, but is ruined due to stale gameplay and lame updates

Quote:
Originally Posted by LifeInfusion
>_>

Shield's up? steady stancers? KD/AS (sucks now)? IWAY? All the strength skills... All cost relatively low energy, therefore rendering zealous useless.

TheOneMephisto

TheOneMephisto

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2005

I would just like to say that sundering isn't vastly inferior to vampiric, they have different uses. You are totally correct when you say that vampiric is better versus prot and as pressure. However, a lot of getting kills in PvP is about surprising your opponent with large packet damage. Lots of times, having a little less damage is worth the chance of surprising a monk by chaining a critical bull's strike into a sundering critical eviscerate for massive spike damage. It's those kinds of random spikes that really get the kills.

B E A S T

B E A S T

Banned

Join Date: Apr 2007

Anywhere but Guild Wars now, sadly.

It's a shame, this game had so much potential, but is ruined due to stale gameplay and lame updates

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilsod
I think that post has just lost all benefit of the doubt you'll get in this thread... ...O Rly?

Explain to me...how so?

Every single strength skill except Dwarven Battle Stance, Headbutt and Warriors Cunning cost 5 energy.

If u need to use that much energy, there are plenty of better alternatives, like oh, Glads Armor, Warriors Endurance.

Warriors have adrenaline for a reason.

Nontheless, if you want to spam energy skills be my guest, but I find I have plenty of energy for the skills I use in my builds (defensive stance, sprint, shield bash etc.)

ArKaiN

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jan 2007

Lotus Branca[Lbr]

Mo/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilsod
No... a ranger can't. Kill off his pet a few times taking it to 60dp and it'll die that frequently he'll need to keep ressing it to use RaO. RaO thumper is ridiculously energy intensive. Oh, I agree it's energy intensive. I also think that it's better than any warrior-based thumper build i've ever seen in therms of pure pressure. 2 energy attacks=not hard to spam.
Btw, ever seen how many people in RA/TA go for the pets?

fenix

fenix

Major-General Awesome

Join Date: Aug 2005

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Sundering + Crit gets kills, not the extra 3 or 5 from Vampiric. I use Sundering as primary weapon (Hammer and Axe only) with Vamp and Elemental as swaps, and Furious instead of Sundering for sword.

Isil`Zha

Isil`Zha

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Dec 2005

Look above you!

Knights of Apathy

A/

Quote:
Originally Posted by fenix
Sundering + Crit gets kills, not the extra 3 or 5 from Vampiric. I use Sundering as primary weapon (Hammer and Axe only) with Vamp and Elemental as swaps, and Furious instead of Sundering for sword. Exactly, this was going to be my next point. A critical sundering hurts. Meanwhile the biggest counter-advantage vamp has is what.. getting "through" RoF? So you hit for 20 damage, which is negated and your target is healed for 20 and your vamp goes through for 3 damage... your target just gained 17 health.

Oni-Claire

Oni-Claire

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jun 2006

Italy

Demoni Creatori ONI

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I use a lot of str near 15 when i use headbutt i make 100 dmg armor ignoring and u hit always.
I also use for farm defy pain and it will give me 300 hp and + 20 armor enar always in fight also use it for a my special fow farm war/mo.
Anyway if u don't use a str elite i think is very useless have over then 9. prob they have to fit the 1% sundering each level and put it for all war attack :S

pingu666

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2006

guildhall

[DETH]

i think it boils down to watch yourself.

back in the day people ran tatics mostly for...

1)stances. ewwww

2) heal sig

3) watch yourself

4)other skills

but now stances suck, theres lions comfort, and theres similer utlilty skills in the strength line too

so it comes down to watch yourself

B E A S T

B E A S T

Banned

Join Date: Apr 2007

Anywhere but Guild Wars now, sadly.

It's a shame, this game had so much potential, but is ruined due to stale gameplay and lame updates

Quote:
Originally Posted by pingu666
so it comes down to watch yourself or defensive stance

blue.rellik

blue.rellik

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2007

Melbourne, Australia

None

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Quote:
Originally Posted by fenix
Sundering + Crit gets kills, not the extra 3 or 5 from Vampiric. I use Sundering as primary weapon (Hammer and Axe only) with Vamp and Elemental as swaps, and Furious instead of Sundering for sword. Oh because you can make the chance to sunder happen whenever you want right?

Stealthc

Academy Page

Join Date: Dec 2005

Kansas City Hotsteppers

If you're relying on a random chance to get your kills through spike damage as a warrior, you're not exactly the best warrior in the world.

On the strength issue I would generally run enough to meet the 3 adrenaline break point for Enraging Charge, getting 4 adrenaline on the board straight away can really help out.

Even then a lot of strength skills are pretty useless.

RotteN

RotteN

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jun 2005

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by B E A S T
All cost relatively low energy, therefore rendering zealous useless. i can easely run out of energy with one one energy skill on my bar : frenzy.

If you activate/cancel often (and you realy should) just frenzy is quite energy heavy already.

claiming zealous is useless is plain stupidity in other words.

Risa

Risa

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Aug 2006

The Nights Watch [Crow]

Mo/

Relying on chance to kill (sundering) shouldn't even be debated against a straight increase in your damage to each attack. (vampiric) A "calculator" may say that sundering will deal close to the same amount of damage...However, why deal with chance when a better alternative exists? Also...20% armor loss on a caster = 48...which isn't such a huge amount of damage as one may expect.

phool

phool

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2007

zealous is incredible. If you consider it as taking your regen from 2 to 4 (optimum circumstances, unlikely outside of pve) that's an extra power attack every 7.5 seconds. +35/7.5=+4.6 average damage. This is a simple example and won't always apply but I feel it's a pretty good indicator. It also means more frenzy, perhaps more dash (which is kinda indirectly more frenzy), perhaps more bull's/prot strikes, etc.

sundering is underated in pvp by the majority simply because it boosts dps poorly. For pve, it sucks, no questions asked, due to minimal anti-melee, minimal kiting and crap monks. There is no situation where sundering is the mod of choice because dps owns all and vamp >>> sundering. Even with scythes/hammers. For pvp, it's still a higher increase in dps than sundering of course, however with the decreased rate of successful attacks from wards/blind/snares/miss hexes/faintheartedness/kiting/etc. you will in fact generally be pressuring your own team by more than the increase in pressure on the enemy vs an alternative weapon mod. It's slight but regardless, you don't want it. Vamp has another major disadvantage over sundering, it tells your target what damage type your weapon is. This means they can confidently select their +10AL vs X shield; if you use sundering they have no idea whether you're running an elemental weapon or not. Finally there's the issue fenix touched upon, that predictable dps doesn't kill people nearly as often as big lucky sundering crits do. People die when you get lucky twice in a row on that's bull's->whatever for a nice +30 damage, they don't die when you do an extra 3-5 damage every 1-2 seconds. Only when you're completely wiping the floor with the other team anyway in which case it's not really an issue.

Now furious. Furious is basically +1 adrenaline every 10 hits, assuming you're not stacking it with something. If we take a very generous example of a bar with standing slash (with pre-requisite met), galrath slash and quivering blade at 15 sword that's a 10% of being 17% closer to a +40 damage and 12.5% closer to another +40 damage and 25% closer to a final +40 damage. If there's not a flaw in the reasoning here, that comes to equivalent of furious boosting you damage by on average 0.1(6.8+10+5)=2.2 dph. Bear in mind swords have the most generous + damage of all. It's still a great mod though, simply because when you're not hitting as much as you'd like it's still often better than sundering.

So, personally, in terms of high level pvp (issues such as shields switches are in somewhere like FA obviously not worth consideration, afaik basically no-one rolls them and most players seem to run staffs etc anyway). I've left out elemental as they apply to every weapon type and will be used against warriors and to keep casters if I noticed their shield is reducing my damage. In the case of swords it's usually irrelevent as I'm running conjures anyway and will only not use the elemental vs rangers (vamp for them on a conjure build).

Swordsressure with furious/zealous and spike with vamp or sundering. Zealous mainly, obv conjure excluded.
Axesressure with sundering/vampiric/zealous and spike with vamp. Main depends a lot on build.
Hammersressure with sundering/furious and spike with vamp/sundering. Main depends a lot on build.

for pve, it's something like

swords:zealous (occasionally furious)
axes:zealous as I love soldier's strike but otherwise vamp
hammers:vamp

sundering's not great on axes but it's better than furious. Furious is best with swords and sometimes when your build is all about the spike and you're not that bothered about that extra bit of pressure.

Strength the attribute is very bad for the reasons covered. Enraging Charge and flail are probably the main things going for it atm, I'd be interested to see if you did an analysis of str vs elemental on a conjure warrior whether 12-12-3 or 12-11-6 would be optimum for dps rather than the standard (meets shield req).

bg_solidsnake

bg_solidsnake

Academy Page

Join Date: Sep 2006

Bulgaria

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I like strenght and when i play my war i always go for 10 str + it helps on ur stances and the ability to survive.I've dueled against a war with only 3 strenght and he almost didnt do anything to me.

Avatara

Avatara

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Nov 2006

strength would be useful if it gave you 1%-2% chance for double adrenalin on every hit.

God Apprentice

God Apprentice

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2006

Mo/N

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilsod
No... a ranger can't. Kill off his pet a few times taking it to 60dp and it'll die that frequently he'll need to keep ressing it to use RaO. RaO thumper is ridiculously energy intensive. Very true. I think there are a lot of people who don't think to do that. I always try to kill RaO's pets it's an annoyance for them having to stop and rez

Jade Zephyr

Jade Zephyr

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jun 2006

GWFC

Quote:
Originally Posted by B E A S T
Warriors have a low amount of energy for a reason. Zealous = Worst Mod

EDIT

And if you must have energy, use Warriors Endurance...or go play an ele! You fail...
12345

Avatara

Avatara

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Nov 2006

your build is wasted if you don't constantly utilize your energy. Zealous hilts allow you to use a lot more over time... in fact speed boosts repay them selfs.