Fire = multi target damage
Air = single target damage
Earth = stationary defense
Water = mobile defense
Water is fine on damage. Mind freeze could use some sort of buff like exhaustion only if condition is met. Other than that Water magic is fine...maybe even overpowered.
Buff Vapor Blade (or hydromancy in general)
Kool Pajamas
Trevor
Mind Freeze doesn't need a buff. Run around with it on a split for a while, and you'll see just how ridiculous 9 seconds of 90% snare is.
bhavv
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Trevor
Mind Freeze doesn't need a buff. Run around with it on a split for a while, and you'll see just how ridiculous 9 seconds of 90% snare is.
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And btw, as long as the water line is doing either the same, or less damage then Fire, Air, or Even Channeling, it isnt going to be imba in PVP either.
The last I checked, Mind freeze causes Exhaustion. For a skill that causes Exhaustion it is very underpowered. Also, it doesnt always snare the enemy. Spiking with mind elites is a pretty stupid idea that will never work due to the damage limitation on the spell. 4-5 spikes and half of your max energy will be gone.
ryanryanryan0310
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bhavv
As the OP has said, his points are PVE orientated. Increasing the damage that the water line does is to improve its use in PVE. It would be nice if for once the PVP morons actually bothered to stay out of PVE disscussions.
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Water does need a slight buff in PVE. A nice AoE damage skill without the exhaustion.
ShadowsRequiem
funny to see a nerf wagic magic plz thread
and then a week later buff water magic plz!
and then a week later buff water magic plz!
Chicken Ftw
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bhavv
As the OP has said, his points are PVE orientated. Increasing the damage that the water line does is to improve its use in PVE. It would be nice if for once the PVP morons actually bothered to stay out of PVE disscussions.
And btw, as long as the water line is doing either the same, or less damage then Fire, Air, or Even Channeling, it isnt going to be imba in PVP either. |
For your other point... Say there was an unremovable snare, or one that lasted for 30s for 5e with 2s recharge. that'd be pretty imba. You can't base a line's utility on damage alone. Besides, for smart players, water can already deal nearly as much damage as fire or air. That combined with the utility of snares, Blurred Vision, etc etc makes the water line just fine as it is.
Finally, before you call me out on not playing PvE, or some other false remark - I do sometimes PvE, have Legendary Guardian, and did try running a few water builds in PvE. While viable, fire magic outdamages it because the mobs mindlessly group up for easy nuking. If what you're trying to get here is a line just like fire that destroys the retarded AI with damage spells, err.. there's already fire. Why make a second line just like the first?
tenshi_strife
ok just listen, this will put this arguement to rest, this is the description of water magic in the game. just hover your mouse over the attribute.
Quote:
| No inherent effect. Many Elementalist skills, especially spells that deal cold damage or slow and hinder your foes, become more effective with higher Water Magic. |
bhavv
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Chicken Ftw
It'd be nice if for once the PvE idiots would comprehend that changing pretty much any skill to make it more powerful effects PvP more than PvE. In PvE, the mobs couldn't care less if you're oneshotting them with your overbuffed water magic that you seem to desire, since there's usually a hundred or more per zone. <_<
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2) With the changes I suggested it would still be weaker then fire, air and channeling.
3) Water is not used for spiking at all atm in HA/GVG for a reason. It does lame damage compared to other magic lines.
Compare it to the earth line. Earth is imo the most balanced attribute line on the elementalist, the damage skills do enough damage, and the protective spells provide plenty of damage reduction. Also in the air line, you have plenty of damage and plenty of knockdowns. Water magic has snares for PVP and very little other then that to make it useful in PVE. All the other attribute lines are balanced to be useful in both PVE and PVP, why cant water also be made like them too?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by tenshi_strife
ok just listen, this will put this arguement to rest, this is the description of water magic in the game. just hover your mouse over the attribute.
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The slow and hinder part is fine, the cold damage part is not.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Chicken Ftw
For your other point... Say there was an unremovable snare, or one that lasted for 30s for 5e with 2s recharge. that'd be pretty imba. You can't base a line's utility on damage alone. Besides, for smart players, water can already deal nearly as much damage as fire or air. That combined with the utility of snares, Blurred Vision, etc etc makes the water line just fine as it is.
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Div
OMG BUF MONK HEALIGN PRAYERS IT DOESN'T HAVE UB3R DMG SKILLZ~~~
the point of water magic isn't necessarily to have the strongest spike. it's meant as utility. fire magic has no snares, so maybe we should add a snare effect to searing flames too?
Apparently you've never played with deep freeze + AoE fire damage in PvE? Before they buff the water line for PvE, they'd probably have to buff paragons, sins, and mesmers.
the point of water magic isn't necessarily to have the strongest spike. it's meant as utility. fire magic has no snares, so maybe we should add a snare effect to searing flames too?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bhavv
Also in the air line, you have plenty of damage and plenty of knockdowns. Water magic has snares for PVP and very little other then that to make it useful in PVE. All the other attribute lines are balanced to be useful in both PVE and PVP, why cant water also be made like them too?
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Winterclaw
Bhavv has it right. I'm not asking for huge damage buffs to everything. I'm not suggesting that the major snares be given large damage buffs. I'm not even saying that it should do more damage than the other el skill lines. Just give some of the damage skills a slight buff.
If you think about it, it is kind of silly to say vapor blade should keep that limitation when there are air and fire spells that do the same amount of damage or a little better without it.
So why can't ice have one or two damage spells so he doesn't need to bring fire along?
Basically it's the principle of the thing. Sure a hydromancer could bring along skills in another line, but then you wouldn't be playing a pure hydromancer. Everyone is saying that the water line is versitile, but I would argue that it's few raw damage spells aren't up to it to be called truely versitile.
If you think about it, it is kind of silly to say vapor blade should keep that limitation when there are air and fire spells that do the same amount of damage or a little better without it.
Quote:
| Apparently you've never played with deep freeze + AoE fire damage in PvE? |
Basically it's the principle of the thing. Sure a hydromancer could bring along skills in another line, but then you wouldn't be playing a pure hydromancer. Everyone is saying that the water line is versitile, but I would argue that it's few raw damage spells aren't up to it to be called truely versitile.
reddswitch
Water is fine. It could actually be a bit too good. Fire and Earth needs downing! A general downing of all 4 elements is what I'd rather have.
/notsigned
/notsigned
Trevor
If we're talking about exclusively PvE (even though I don't see why it matters, 60% of the posts in every PvP thread are by some clueless PvEr) then I think your best option is to not use a water ele. Should shutdown mesmers be changed so that they can be super-effective in PvE? How about cripslash warriors? Likewise, should minion masters be altered so that they are viable in PvP? Especially when fire is so ridiculously overpowered in PvE, why should water be drastically changed in the PvP perspective just so you can be original?
bhavv
Quote:
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Originally Posted by holymasamune
OMG BUF MONK HEALIGN PRAYERS IT DOESN'T HAVE UB3R DMG SKILLZ~~~
Apparently you've never played with deep freeze + AoE fire damage in PvE? |
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Trevor
Should shutdown mesmers be changed so that they can be super-effective in PvE?original?
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Consider how weak enemies in PVE that use water magic are compared to air and fire ones. In the exception of 20 ice imps spamming maelstrom, they are pretty pointless compared to everything else, because the water line is weak in PVE.
Chicken Ftw
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Trevor
If we're talking about exclusively PvE (even though I don't see why it matters, 60% of the posts in every PvP thread are by some clueless PvEr) then I think your best option is to not use a water ele. Should shutdown mesmers be changed so that they can be super-effective in PvE? How about cripslash warriors? Likewise, should minion masters be altered so that they are viable in PvP? Especially when fire is so ridiculously overpowered in PvE, why should water be drastically changed in the PvP perspective just so you can be original?
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You PvE'ers can say it needs more damage all you want, but it doesn't. It's perfect as it is, for the purpose of the line. Water's not primarily about damage. It's about utility. You want damage, spec fire instead.
Ecklipze
Quote:
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Originally Posted by masteroflife
sigh... so not signed. when will people realize that there is more to guild wars than dealing damage.
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bhavv
Sigh.
Consider this. If water hadnt been buffed in the last major skill update, no one would have been using it in PVP anywhere near as much as it is being used now. It was essentially the water trident buff that got water magic realised, and gave the line viable play in PVP, but it is still pretty pointless in PVE. Some damage tweaks to make it more usefull in PVE isnt really too much to ask for, as long as they do not go over the damage lines of other attributes.
Consider this. If water hadnt been buffed in the last major skill update, no one would have been using it in PVP anywhere near as much as it is being used now. It was essentially the water trident buff that got water magic realised, and gave the line viable play in PVP, but it is still pretty pointless in PVE. Some damage tweaks to make it more usefull in PVE isnt really too much to ask for, as long as they do not go over the damage lines of other attributes.
Xiaxhou of Trinity
Quote:
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Originally Posted by tenshi_strife
ok not all ele lines are damage my friend.... i know im an ele, i do believe everyone knows this list but ill put it again.
Fire = Aoe Damage Air = Spike Damage Earth = tanking Water = heavy snare now each att has some skills that dont quite fit in there but all in all thats how it goes, next people will be asking for fire to have a snare and air to have aoe lol |
earth can tank, but water has nice armor buffs too (great in derv enchant build). earth and water can deal aoe dmg just the same as fire, though fire has more spammability. Earth has a few snares of its own, and a hybrid earth/air build is great snare/spike/KD.
shatterstone->freezing gust->ice spear/optional finishing spike and done. water is not a strictly pvp line, but in pve it's not the most ideal since with fire and earth you can clear mobs out faster. if you're saying water is underpowered, you're just not using the right combos (same concept goes for most any attribute line.....) i think the ele lines are pretty balanced, though an extra KD skill in the air line would be fun to play with (exhaustion off gale kills me =/)
masteroflife=yoda
EXPERIMENT, gg
tenshi_strife
xiaxhou...... what you just said makes you look like the biggest idiot every..... water has like 3 armor skills that dont even come close to earth.... [skill]stoneflesh aura[/skill] = better than any water magic armor. also yes water can aoe and so can earth but fire does it best...... water can spike but then so can fire.... like i said many skills dont fall into that line but MOST do....
Kale Ironfist
Instead of thinking of buffing water damage up (which currently, there is no reason to), think of snaring as applying weakness or knockdown to the enemy with a harder to use removal. You're dropping their potential damage since they can't move as easily, and it also helps to spike them down if they can't kite. There's a reason why Fire is the damage king, but isn't used as much in PvP.
Water already deals enough damage with its skills, since they add a lot of utility. Any more would either overpower it so that it can be used for damage in PvE but also add MORE spike utility in PvP, or it wouldn't make any noticeable difference.
Water already deals enough damage with its skills, since they add a lot of utility. Any more would either overpower it so that it can be used for damage in PvE but also add MORE spike utility in PvP, or it wouldn't make any noticeable difference.
isamu kurosawa
If the elements where all buffed to deal good AoE damage, then whats the point in having different elements in the first place?. the quote from the manual says ele's CAN deal damage, not they must.
personally i think there should be more diversity in foes AL Vs individual elements rather than higher raw damage on spells. giving foes less armour Vs an element dependant on area (more so than hells precipice foes and ice elementals) would allow for more diversity in elementalists builds in PvE, while obviously not affecting PvP. I'd hate too see what water line would be like to play against with damage comparable to air + AoE effects also.
personally i think there should be more diversity in foes AL Vs individual elements rather than higher raw damage on spells. giving foes less armour Vs an element dependant on area (more so than hells precipice foes and ice elementals) would allow for more diversity in elementalists builds in PvE, while obviously not affecting PvP. I'd hate too see what water line would be like to play against with damage comparable to air + AoE effects also.
Trevor
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bhavv
Sigh.
Consider this. If water hadnt been buffed in the last major skill update, no one would have been using it in PVP anywhere near as much as it is being used now. It was essentially the water trident buff that got water magic realised, and gave the line viable play in PVP, but it is still pretty pointless in PVE. Some damage tweaks to make it more usefull in PVE isnt really too much to ask for, as long as they do not go over the damage lines of other attributes. |
Nice try though. I'm sure you're uninformed opinions matter to someone out there.
linh
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bhavv
Mesmers are being balanced for PVE play as we speak. The same should be done for water elementalists.
Consider how weak enemies in PVE that use water magic are compared to air and fire ones. In the exception of 20 ice imps spamming maelstrom, they are pretty pointless compared to everything else, because the water line is weak in PVE. |
MithranArkanere
My only concern about water magic is that its skills have usually long recharge times...
I'd rather have their energy costs increased a bit and their times decreased than their damages buffed.
I only put heroes with water, since I mostly get bored with water magic if I don't take one of the few 'fast' skills water magic have, like Ice Spear or Freezing Gust.
I'd rather have their energy costs increased a bit and their times decreased than their damages buffed.
I only put heroes with water, since I mostly get bored with water magic if I don't take one of the few 'fast' skills water magic have, like Ice Spear or Freezing Gust.
bhavv
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Trevor
The water trident didn't bring water eles into the spotlight, it was the mind freeze buff/icy shackles. And shatterstone to a lesser extent.
Nice try though. I'm sure you're uninformed opinions matter to someone out there. |
After the water trident buff, I were playing a trident elly in HA for weeks. Trident is the spell that completely devasted relic runners with its new found 99.9% chance to hit a moving target, not the removable slow hexes.
Icy shackles really only saw play in para spike as paras really cant spam trident all day, mind freeze was probably only used in GVG, even though it was hardly used as much as trident.
william1975
I don't much like water but i can at least appreciate the logic behind why it is formed the way it is, Cold and water to me would abvioulsy do less damage but slow the enemy down a lot, whereas fire is goign to do massive amounts of damage, earth will do a fiar amount of damage and knockdown, whereas air is more likes to do high amounts of damage to singular foes, unless the conditions are right.
I don't think the spells are inapropriate, I like the way they are set up.
/notsinged
Ohh i like to do lots of damges quickly, but from a distance, thats why i havent used much water magic, its also why i use Air as my attacks on my mesmer, just love the fast casting on it.
I don't think the spells are inapropriate, I like the way they are set up.
/notsinged
Ohh i like to do lots of damges quickly, but from a distance, thats why i havent used much water magic, its also why i use Air as my attacks on my mesmer, just love the fast casting on it.
Trevor
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bhavv
lol, you obviously have NO clue yourself what your talking about.
After the water trident buff, I were playing a trident elly in HA for weeks. Trident is the spell that completely devasted relic runners with its new found 99.9% chance to hit a moving target, not the removable slow hexes. |
Oh. I honestly don't give a shit about what goes on in HA. By the very nature of it it's pretty much exempt from anything almost balanced.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bhavv
Icy shackles really only saw play in para spike as paras really cant spam trident all day, mind freeze was probably only used in GVG, even though it was hardly used as much as trident.
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Go back to SF please
bhavv
I really dont care about GVG, hence why I am posting in a PVE orientated discussion thread. The top end of GVG do not make up the majority of PVP'ers that play Trident elly in PVP.
Go and play other things in the game like HA before thinking Trident isnt the skill that bought water ellys into the spotlight in PVP. The last I checked, PVP = HA, TA, and GVG, not just top 1000 GVG.
Go and play other things in the game like HA before thinking Trident isnt the skill that bought water ellys into the spotlight in PVP. The last I checked, PVP = HA, TA, and GVG, not just top 1000 GVG.
Trevor
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bhavv
I really dont care about GVG, hence why I am posting in a PVE orientated discussion thread. The top end of GVG do not make up the majority of PVP'ers that play Trident elly in PVP.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bhavv
Go and play other things in the game like HA before thinking Trident isnt the skill that bought water ellys into the spotlight in PVP. The last I checked, PVP = HA, TA, and GVG, not just top 1000 GVG.
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Winterclaw
In PvP there are better damage options than water. Buffing the damage might make people want to include it now and then, but if every so often one team ends up running a water spike, what big deal is that? There's been air spike, earth spike, and SF.
Oh No! People might be able to run a spike in a new element that (if we are lucky or anet screws something up) might be comparable in damage to past el spikes that can still be used to some effect.
Oh No! People might be able to run a spike in a new element that (if we are lucky or anet screws something up) might be comparable in damage to past el spikes that can still be used to some effect.
Trevor
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Winterclaw
In PvP there are better damage options than water. Buffing the damage might make people want to include it now and then, but if every so often one team ends up running a water spike, what big deal is that? There's been air spike, earth spike, and SF.
Oh No! People might be able to run a spike in a new element that (if we are lucky or anet screws something up) might be comparable in damage to past el spikes that can still be used to some effect. |
Water Angel
not signed, your points are bs.
water not enoug dmg?u make me laugh. vapor blade dmg at 16 : 143 whats more than any ele spell in game.
no mentioning all extras of water magic : good dmg reductio, slow down enemies, make them miss, good for prevent them from run of aoe,good for interupt,and nice aoe effects.
i do regulary play water ele in pve and pvp.on both its more than good.if u think water magic need buff in pve you should stop play ele.
water provide all tactical stuff u need ina pve or pvp team.and deal more dmg than any fire or air single spell dealin dmg(vapor blade,shatter, and ice spear> in dealing fast dmg than other spells,cept maybe ss or sh)
water not enoug dmg?u make me laugh. vapor blade dmg at 16 : 143 whats more than any ele spell in game.
no mentioning all extras of water magic : good dmg reductio, slow down enemies, make them miss, good for prevent them from run of aoe,good for interupt,and nice aoe effects.
i do regulary play water ele in pve and pvp.on both its more than good.if u think water magic need buff in pve you should stop play ele.
water provide all tactical stuff u need ina pve or pvp team.and deal more dmg than any fire or air single spell dealin dmg(vapor blade,shatter, and ice spear> in dealing fast dmg than other spells,cept maybe ss or sh)
Kool Pajamas
This thread is like asking for life stealing skills in death magic. Or bow skills in beast mastery.
Radiant Dawnstar
bhavv, you're a moron. Did you get your rank by IWAYing?
FelixCarter
I use to feel the same way about Water. Alot of the "spam" skills are not nearly as good as Fire, Wind, and Earth. On top of that, all the damaging skills have conditional requirements that usually rely on the other elements.
But, then I switched to a Terramancer and realized all the elements have thier own Pros and Cons. While water had low damage, I was able to slow foes down to a snail's pace and allow my Warrior and Assassin friends to rape away. Many a monk can die to the hands of a Hydromancer+Assassin.
Earth is just as good, though. While you're sometimes limited in speed, Assassins and Warriors usually have a difficult time trying to crack open your shell of earth and rock. On top of that, there are many Terramancing skills that can do good AoE damage... Not as good as Fire, but damn close.
In the end, the only thing I want to complain about is:
Where the f@%# is my Conjure Earth?
But, then I switched to a Terramancer and realized all the elements have thier own Pros and Cons. While water had low damage, I was able to slow foes down to a snail's pace and allow my Warrior and Assassin friends to rape away. Many a monk can die to the hands of a Hydromancer+Assassin.
Earth is just as good, though. While you're sometimes limited in speed, Assassins and Warriors usually have a difficult time trying to crack open your shell of earth and rock. On top of that, there are many Terramancing skills that can do good AoE damage... Not as good as Fire, but damn close.
In the end, the only thing I want to complain about is:
Where the f@%# is my Conjure Earth?
Div
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bhavv
I really dont care about GVG, hence why I am posting in a PVE orientated discussion thread. The top end of GVG do not make up the majority of PVP'ers that play Trident elly in PVP.
Go and play other things in the game like HA before thinking Trident isnt the skill that bought water ellys into the spotlight in PVP. The last I checked, PVP = HA, TA, and GVG, not just top 1000 GVG. |
And I can say with 99.99% certainty that bacon knows a lot more than you about the overall PvP metagame, so your arguments are pretty pointless before him.
Winterclaw
Quote:
| Anet balances skill power for PvP. |
Trevor
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Winterclaw
But they have made or are currently making changes for PvE as well. So long as the damage isn't more powerful than fire or air, I don't see why a few of the skills couldn't be buffed a little.
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Kool Pajamas
Making changes doesnt mean unbalancing professions. They are updating mesmers not making them into nukers which seems to be what people are suggesting for water eles.
Winterclaw
Here's another idea I had to buff water magic. How about having it so that if two people cast shatterstone on a target, the second hex would cause the first one to go off and do its damage on skill end.
KP, I think that while water els do need to keep the snares, they also deserve to have a few decent nuke spells.
For example, if in GWEN, there was one or two water nukes that did damage comparable to (but a tinsy bit less) air or fire, but disabled your other water hexes for 5-10 seconds, I'd be happy with something like that.
Something like
Winter's Fury (elite) 15e, 1c, 4 recharge
Spell. Do 24...120 damage to foe but disables your water magic hexes for 10 seconds. For each hex disabled this way, do 24...120 damage to one foe near your target. Each foe can only be hit once by this secondary effect.
or
Winter's Blast 10e, 1c, 8 recharge
Spell. Do 20...120 cold damage to target foe, all of your water magic hexes are disabled for 10...5 seconds.
or
Shiva's Fingersnap (elite) 10e, 1c, 7 recharge
Spell. Do 8...64 cold damage foe and remove up to two water hexes from target. For each hex removed this way, this spell does an additional 8...48 cold damage.
KP, I think that while water els do need to keep the snares, they also deserve to have a few decent nuke spells.
For example, if in GWEN, there was one or two water nukes that did damage comparable to (but a tinsy bit less) air or fire, but disabled your other water hexes for 5-10 seconds, I'd be happy with something like that.
Something like
Winter's Fury (elite) 15e, 1c, 4 recharge
Spell. Do 24...120 damage to foe but disables your water magic hexes for 10 seconds. For each hex disabled this way, do 24...120 damage to one foe near your target. Each foe can only be hit once by this secondary effect.
or
Winter's Blast 10e, 1c, 8 recharge
Spell. Do 20...120 cold damage to target foe, all of your water magic hexes are disabled for 10...5 seconds.
or
Shiva's Fingersnap (elite) 10e, 1c, 7 recharge
Spell. Do 8...64 cold damage foe and remove up to two water hexes from target. For each hex removed this way, this spell does an additional 8...48 cold damage.
Trevor
What's the bloody point of nuking with water magic if it disables your snares? Just go fire for god's sake.
What the hell is wrong with you people?
What the hell is wrong with you people?